Metal Thermostat Installed
 

Everything is there although I may suggest that you get new Jubilee clips to replace the hose clips used by MGR. This is a precaution as the old clips may have deteriorated with age. There is a lengthy discussion on this in the above links.

On arriving at Dr Dave's he immediately started to dismantle my engine. It never ceases to amaze me when watching people who know what they are doing - do their thing. Within minutes my poor car looked very sad and broken. But never fear Dr Dave knows what is what when pulling your dearly beloved apart. I can guarantee that there was no bits or screws or bolts left over when the work was complete. (Except for the old plastic thermostat and pipes.)

#4
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_001.jpg

#5
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_002.jpg

The above picture show the old plastic thermostat insitu. Now I have to say that there was no problems with my plastic thermostat. I was probably one of the lucky ones whose thermostat was okay, however, I had noticed a small pink stain at the bottom of the "V" of the engine although I didn't have any considerable coolant loss. More about this later.

#6
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_003.jpg
In the above picture Dr Dave is pointing at what he called a Knocking Sensor. I am not sure what this is all about and I am sure he will tell us later in the thread. However, it did bring to mind one occasion when the good wife and myself were staying in a hotel in Paris and we heard some very interesting sensual knocking going on through the paper thin walls to the room next door. But I digress.

#7
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_004.jpg
The above image is of Dr Dave removing the bent pipe; it's facsimile can be seen in the earlier photos. He tells me that it is impossible to remove this bent pipe without breaking it. So we were at the point of no return. If you are doing this yourself then you have to decide are you willing to go for it??? Hopefully this little article will encourage you to continue. See the broken bent pipe below.

#8
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_005.jpg

#9
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_006.jpg
Above shows the removal of the clips holding the hose pipes onto the thermostat. These are the ones you may wish to consider replacing with jubilee clips.

#10
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_007.jpg
Levering the thermostat housing out of the engine block. (Perhaps Dr Dave could clarify any of these operations if I get them wrong.)

#11
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_009.jpg
The thermostat after removal. You can see the pink gunk around the smaller pipe. My guessing is this was the source of the pink staining I had observed in the "V" of the engine. Again reiterating that perhaps replacing the old clips with jubilee clips could save a lot of heartache. On inspection there appears to be no problems with the plastic thermostat housing, not even any beginnings of an issue with the joint, which is blamed for all the failures. There again I may have been one of the lucky ones whose plastic thermostat was going to be okay for the life of the car. I wasn't prepared to take that risk.

The next series of images I can't explain so perhaps Dr Dave could step in and tell us what he is doing. (Perhaps note the image number and make comment so that I can copy and paste into the appropriate place... Or because you are a MOD you can do it yourself?)

#12
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_013.jpg

#13
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_012.jpg

#14
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_011.jpg

#15
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_010.jpg

#16
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_021.jpg

#17
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_020.jpg

#18
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_019.jpg

#19
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_018.jpg

#20
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_016.jpg

#21
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_017.jpg

#22
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_021.jpg

#23
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_022.jpg

#24
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_023.jpg

#25
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_024.jpg

#26
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_025.jpg
In the above image you can see the O ring sealer he used prior to installing the new pipes. (Dunno what this stuff is called)

#27
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_026.jpg

#28
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_028.jpg

#29
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_027.jpg
Again you can plainly see the old MGR clips used for fixing the pipes. These are the ones that you may consider replacing with jubilee clips. (Any thoughts Dr Dave?)

#30
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_029.jpg

#31
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_030.jpg

#32
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_031.jpg

#33
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_032.jpg

#34
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_033.jpg
Now it is all back together and running sweetly.

#35
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_035.jpg
Before setting off to Dr Dave's I reset the trip metre etc. and the above and below stats shows the MPG for the distance covered.

#36
http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_034.jpg

All-in-all a very pleasant experience. I now only have a few small things to do on the car and she will be almost as good as new. She should do me for a while to come anyway.

Edd

I am very happy that you got yours to work with no problems!! I think the write up is as good as it gets and possibly the photographs are even better.

Hat off!

And, as an aside, you do realize that you did have a leak.?? The orange stuff is dried OAT from the cooling system.! SO maybe good enough you did the replacement.

But in essence, this is what is involved, and this makes the difference between playing the lotto (without any hope of winning!) and not!

Just keep an eye on the V for the next week or so, just until your nerves calm down! I know the feeling, when every thing is new and untested, you want to check and check. I suggest you make it a habit to check you water level every time before you start a cold car. It takes half a minute, and this is time well spent. You will pick any anomaly up this way, before it picks you!
I think this mod will last the life of the car, maybe with a replacement of the thermostat unit itself, but then again, this is now possible!

Great!!

I am going to go out today and try and get the jubilee clips to replace the old MGR ones.

Does anyone know what the sizes are or can I just get a mixed box and hopefully it will contain everything I need?

Thanks

Edd

Just a minor personal query on the clips. I don't have a V6 so haven't seen them in real life. What purpose do the clips around the metal (or plastic) connector pipe have? One of these clips is seen in Image 26. I believe this joint and the other end of this pipe are sealed by an O-ring, so why the clips?

TC

They are location clips . The straight pipe can float back and forward to a degree between pump and thermostats , so once the pipe is in place you snap the clips on and it's just as if it fitted properly !

Resurrecting this thread as someone on the other forum has said that Lates doesn't like them and is less than complimentary because of the problems they have.

If Lates sees this perhaps he can enlighten us please? Last thing I want is my car breaking down because of something I fitted in good faith proves to be dodgy.

I must say I have had NO problems with mine since it was fitted.

Thanks

Edd

I think we should let Lates give us his view, if he has anything to say.
I have only had positive feed-back from all corners of the world. And, as the supplier of these, I think I would be the first people should complain to.
By the way, Lates is obviously entitled to his views, whatever they might be.

But let us put it to the test.:)

I drive with Kaisers metal thermostat serial number 1, what was fitted by Lates without any problem. Thermostat is still without any problem, no leak(s) just doing its job like it should. Since the metal thermostat was fitted I still check regular, but not needed to add 1 drop of fluid. Last check was sunday.

Rob

Many thanks!:)

Me too... No problems with it and no leaks since installed. I have not had to add any coolant since.

I must say that it is someone else who is reporting what Lates has said. As Lates is considered to be GOD on these forums I think he should put the baby to bed as word from himself rather than he being reported by a third party as saying something detrimental about the metal thermostat.

I have PM'd him but no response as yet.

Edd

I did reply back but your pm bounced Ed. I have also replied on the other forums.

At this moment in time I have one of these due to be fitted and in light of this next vehicle whether I fit any more.

Details on the other forum, I am in the office and limited on free time sorry.

My ZT had a standard plastic housing and not had a problem with it in 6 years and 60k miles.
It was changed at the same time as the cam belts last year but there was not anyting wrong with it no leaks nothing just made sense while everything was exposed to pop in a new one.

Is the problem with the plastic themostat housing actually that bad? In my experience the plastic housing is servicable for as long as one would expect it to be.

Maybe the constant hot weather in South Africa degrades it quicker?

Ed.:confused:

Heres a random thought. Look at the numbers of KV6 power units built.Then calculate how many have had two thermostat replacements. Factor in addtional costs then make your own mind up.

I know of 2 kv6's that have had 2 stat replacements not counting the original one from build.

My own has had one a 85k now over 100k and still going well. Sure the car will be scrapped out before I need another.

I doubt if you would be able to find one V6 here that has not got a problem with the original thermostat. If so, it would be a fairly new and little used car.

By far the biggest problem are related to the plastic bits in and around the thermostat.
I for one cannot accept a latent problem with my engine, that can spring upon me with no warning, and totally immobilize the car, in serious cases ruin the engine.
My own car had an issue with the original thermostat just before 60000km. It went from not using a drop, to rapid overheat warning. Luckily close to home on a cool day. I knew that it could not be serious, because I had used the car for about 5km from cold.
I had another thermostat fitted, and it refused to open. That almost cost me an engine! The next one lasted till 70000km and leaked from day one. The welding of the top and bottom plastic parts was not complete.
I built my first metal housing. Problem solved. Permanently.

The problem is that this can happen at any time, and you get no warning before the event. When the gauge goes from normal to red alert, it takes about 5 seconds. You almost get a heart attack!
That is not acceptable in my book! Irrespective of whether or not you intend to keep the car. And I think most people would like to avoid such a possibility.

At issue is also the quality of the original thermostat housings used by Rover.
I have no doubt (but also no proof!) that the original units were of better quality than the later ones.
Currently the plastic units are produced by a Chinese company.
I will be surprised if Rover did not, at some time, switch suppliers to this company. After all, they did a number of tricks to lower the cost of the cars toward the end.

I have, grudingly!, taken Late's criticism to heart, and ordered the foundry to use a sealing process of the aluminium castings which will increase the smoothness of the finished product with immediate effect. After all, even a perceived problem is a problem. :o
At the same time I will offer an option where the heater unit is maximized if ordered.

Hi Kaiser

Well, some cars have escaped your problem so far, because mine is now on 83K and so far all is well !!

I still have your ally replacement in its box in the garage . No complaints, you have done a wonderful job there, but I wonder if I will be handing over a car and a box containing an aluminium thermostat housing to a new owner when I sell the car.

As I say my ZT did 60k miles which is 96,000km without a problem. The old one was only changed as the cambelts were being done and it made sense to pop a new one in. The old one looked perfect no leaks or cracks and opening on warm up as normal.

In South Africa it may de different due to the constant hot weather:confused:

I have the Hans guage fitted so would get plenty of warning of an over heating problem.

Good Luck with your project.

Like other threads everyone has to make up his own mind what to do.

Although there are members with no problems at all with their original plastic thermostat housings (and this is good for them) I think it is great that innovative members like Kaiser find a solution for the problem that he had with his plastic thermostat housings.

I think I is even more great that certain members like Kaiser make this solution also available for the other members. Costs are higher, but at least there is a choice you can make now. For me it is a much more relaxed feeling while driving that I drive “on metal”.

Would like to thank Kaiser once again for his great job that he has done for us members, and in particular for me and my beloved 75.

Rob

As I said in my original post I had no problems with the plastic thermostat. I did have a slight leak which I discovered; once we got into the "V", to be coming from the hose clip. None of this had been disturbed as far as I know and I have had the car for 7 years. As my last picture shows it has done 109K with the original thermostat. I have now done 1145 miles since the metal one has been installed. Gave it a good run 87 miles today and no problems.

I don't think I will ever put the old one back as the thermostat itself could be on the blink so I wont take the chance. I'll stick with the metal one for now.

Edd

Kaiser's KV6 metal thermostat-fitted in 2 hrs.
 

Kaiser's metal thermostat housing can be fitted by a simple, albeit non-standard method.
I fitted Kaiser's metal thermostat housing and 2 pipes this way around 6 months ago.
These components have performed perfectly, and I am totally happy with the upgrade.
My 2004 KV6 2.5 has not lost a drop of coolant in 6 months.
The confidence regained in my vehicle was worth every penny, as here in Australia one is often far from help.

I suggest that Kaiser's parts are the only sensible replacement option for KV6 owners.
To use the OEM part is to ask for the same problem in a few years, as it is poorly designed.
Kaiser's cast metal unit is clearly superior to the high frequency welded plastic OEM part.
Mr Kaiser has created the part that should have been fitted originally.

The strength of Kaiser's part allows fitment by a quick non-standard method.
The job can be done in 2 hrs and requires no removal of manifolds.
Not disturbing the complex induction system reduces the cost considerably.
It also removes the possibilty of incorrect re-assembly, and damaging components during removal.

Remove battery and air cleaner as per Haynes method.
Remove breather and fuel pipes as per Haynes. Make a diagram to aid refittiing!
Remove lifting hook - 1 x 14mm and 1 x10mm bolt.
Remove throttle body complete - 4 x Torx 25.
Remove throttle cable from quadrant by obvious method if needed.
Carefully raise throttle body, prise off cruise control white ball and socket connector, if fitted.
Tie back throttle body.
Remove 12 mm bolt using extended socket mentioned below.
Remove thermostat housing and bent pipe by levering out with a cut length of broomstick.
Remove annular debris left in holes, as the old parts will probably break during removal.

Pre-assemble long straight pipe into thermostat housing to its correct depth.
Tighten RHS travel limiting jubilee clip to prevent further ingress into the housing.
Fit LHS jubilee clip, leaving it just nipped, as this clip needs to slide.
I used Permatex Aviation jointing compound on 'O' rings - recommended, as it aids insertion.
I used wet and dry paper tacked to a length of dowelling to clean mating surfaces.

Manually manoevre assembled housing and long pipe into position.It is easier than it sounds.
Cut lengths of broomstick and a 20 inch screwdriver helps.
Do not foul the 2 leads from the knock sensors.

Offer up LHS (far) end of long pipe to its hole.
Light horizontal tapping with rubber mallet and wooden drift helps it home.
Viewing from RHS, ascertain that the thermostat housing is directly above its hole.
It is easy to twist and wriggle the housing to get this alignment.
Using cut length of broomstick and mallet, tap thermostat down home, working from above.
It was safer to use the required (moderate) force on a metal, rather than a plastic component.
Housing went in first time for me, as did the bent pipe later.
Lubrication provided by the jointing compound - may be important in aiding insertion.

Use a strongly magnetised metal screwdriver to offer the 12mm fixing bolt to its hole.
Torque it down gently to force thermostat housing home. Remove 12 mm bolt again.
It is now possible to manoevre bent pipe into place and tap it down using cut broomstick lengths, long screwdriver and rubber hammer.
I had no real problem getting the bent pipe into position, using cut lengths of broomstick and long screwdrivers as drifts.

Re-offer 12mm bolt, rotating bent pipe slightly until its hole and the housing hole align, and the bolt drops down under its own weight.
Torque down moderately - a stripped thread would be a disaster!
The seal is provided by 'O'-rings, not the torque on the fixing bolt.

I used a 1/4" socket set, with 2 x 200mm extensions, terminating in a universal joint and normal socket.
This allowed torquing the bolt from above, working through the cast manifold.
Pack the joints in socket extensions with cloth to prevent seperation in use.

Tighten LHS jubilee clip previously left nipped. Allow 2 mm clearance between clip and block.
Refit throttle body. It is essential to fit lower LHS Torx first.
Refit lifting hook, 2 bolts, easily accessed.
Connect coolant hoses, refit other removed parts, add coolant and check for leaks.

Once done, my reaction was: "Surely it couldn't have been so easy!"
You just need to have the confidence to ignore the workshop manual.
And use Kaiser's well-made metal components.

Final step:
Open another Coopers Sparkling Ale.... Adelaide's gift to the World.

Thanks Bruce!! :-)

Hi Guys do you think I've a stat problem and is there a goo way to check?I have been sat in traffic and the temperature gauge starts to rise - hits 12 o'clock - engine overheat warning comes on - I pull away and the temperature gauge returns to the usual 9 o'clock. I finally get home - open the bonnet to make sure I can't see anything untoward with the engine running, waiting for the temperature to go up again and.....nothing. The fan kicks in ok and the temp gauge stays at 9 o'clock. This has happened a couple of times with me getting home and checking and it's never happened when I'm waiting for it to do so. I drive 75 miles - no problem. I drive 75 miles back - no problem. I then stop the engine , leave it 10 minutes, sit in a small jam and the gauge rises again! Drive home let the engine run whilst sat on the drive, waiting for it to rise again and.....nothing. The temp gauge is fine. I'd already had the head gasket and thermostat done 8000 miles ago so does it sound like it's the stat again?
Thanks
Ken

Whoops - should have said - 2.5l KV6

capese 21,
You ask the legitimate question " Is the OEM plastic thermostat housing actually that bad?" Yes, it is.
I suggest that the plastic thermostat housing is an excellent example of 'just adequate' design.
Adequate for say, 100,000k km or 8 years in ambient temperatures of -20C to + 30C, but quite inadequate for ambients of +20C to + 45C in tropical or desert locations.

Out here in the Antipodes, we Rover 75 owners are forced by the lack of service to help each other. So I've chatted with several other R75 KV6 owners over time.
So far, there has been a 100% failure rate of thermostat housings reported.
Some owners have even had the replacement OEM part replaced.
A Singaporean and South African member report similary in this forum.

Plastics degrade exponentially with temperature.
So the life of Rover's caprolactam derived component may be just adequate in temperate climes, but inadequate in severe service.

The ambient underhood temperature would exceed the 82C coolant temperature by many degrees. This component works in a very hot environment.
That you have had no problems in 6 years or 100,000km is no real test.
My thermostat housing failed quickly at 130,000km and 6 years.
This seems to be a common Time to Failure out here.

The Time to Failure in Europe may be longer.
But the OEM part is still poorly designed, and made from the wrong material.
Replacing plastic with metal is the only sensible fix.
Mr Kaiser's metal thermostat housing is the best option for replacement, especially if you intend to keep your Rover 75 for many years.

In your opinion and experience. But not in mine!

I see no reason to fit a metal version when the service life of the oem one is perfectly acceptable.

I have one car which did over 60k / 6 years on its original thermostat without a problem. It was changed when the cam belts were changed as was the water pump which to me are all part of the cambelt change on the V6.

I would not go to all the expence of a cambelt change and not include a new thermostat housing and water pump. Thermostats can fail regardles of what material the housing is made of.


If the "inferior plastic" one lasts another 6 years / 60k miles then I will change it again when the cambelts are changed. I see no reason to take it out before and fit a home made metal one.

I agree perhaps the higher temparatures in Africa or Australia may cause the plastic one to fail earlier:confused:
My engine though runs at the pretty much the same temp in the winter as it does on a hot summers day. I know as I have the Hans guage fitted.

What temp does your engine run at? mine is between 92 and 96 iirc.

Good luck with your metal version. I will not be fitting one.

Ed.:)

My plastic housing had failed at 18k miles. I reluctantly replaced it with the OEM part because at that time there was no choice.

As I had seen this same housing split on the Rover 825 with the KV6 engine, I made the decision to replace it with Kaiser's unit at the timed out cam belt change point. The plastic version has had 2 chances with me, that is sufficient.

I am no longer paranoid about it. :D

We all have different experiences. ;)

Just an update on my installation of the metal thermostat...

I noticed the coolant was starting to drop again. Not a lot but a cupful a week.

I took the old girl into Terry's at Stourbridge and he replaced the old OEM hose clips with Jubilee Clips. No more problems and now done quite a few thousand mikes since.

If anyone is contemplating changing the thermostat (Plastic or Metal) Change the hose clips at the same time.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I drive with a lot more peace of mind with Keiser's thermostat installed.

Edd

My ZT-T 190 Plastic Stat is leaking at just 10k miles from new.
Guess what it's getting for a Christmas present.:cool:
Now where's Kaiser when you need him !!

capese 21,
Thanks for reporting that your plastic thermostat housing has lasted for 60K miles.
The reports of failure of the same part after 10K and 18K miles indicate that you have been lucky.
However, hoping for good luck is not a good basis for having trust in the reliability of one's Rover.
Especially when nearest help is 200km away, and the Outback is 40C in the shade.

That there is and has been a problem with KV6 thermostat housings is indisputable.
That these failures follow a Poisson (binomial) distribution is probable.
That the mean Time to Failure is skewed to a lower value by higher operating temperatures is highly likely.
That metal will last longer than plastic at high temperature is self evident.

Therefore replacing the OEM part with Mr Kaiser's well-designed and well built part is the only rational response to the problem.
To call Kaiser's replacement part 'a home made metal one' is rather unfair.
Kaiser's part is well designed and well made.
I have one fitted. My car has not lost a drop of coolant in 6 months.

The small premium that buying his superior part incurs is well worth the renewed confidence it gives in the reliability of one's vehicle.
Installing Kaiser's part has allowed me to keep my Rover for years more.
For that reason alone, it is a bargain.

All I am saying is imho the plastic original is not that bad. I have not had a problem with it on my car.

Some have reported early failures but plenty (the majority?) of them have also lasted well in excess of 60k miles.


Ed. :)

As I have said in my OP above when Dr Dave got to my plastic thermostat it was in fact okay and this was at close to 100K miles...

http://www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover7...Thermo_009.jpg

The leak I had was from the small hose clip which was changed later. But to be honest I still feel more confident with Kaiser's metal version although I had to change the clips at a later date for jubilee type ones.

Even if some people refit a plastic one they should replace the hose clips with Jubilee ones.

But if anyone is going to go to the effort of replacing the thermostat then to be honest the metal one wins hands down. Fit and forget.

Edd

Have had three thermostats fail between my two 75s. One actual stat failure and two with split casing.

The stat one lasted about 5 years and 55k. the replacement lasted two years and 14k miles before it split.

The last split casing one was original fit on the car and went at about 65 k miles and 8 years.

As there would appear to be some truth in the theory that stats and plastic housing fitted originally were of better quality that later replacements I went for a metal replacement.

No problems in fitting and no leaks yet.

The only downside is that the warm up time has about doubled which in the cold weather over the past month or so has increased fuel consumption a fair bit.:mad:

As suppled by Kaiser the stat is an 80c one. I was wondering if say an 85c or 88c would be a better bet in the uk. Any one any thoughts ?? Kaiser ??

And would an MGR Stat (which I believe is an 88c one) be a suitable replacement.

During winter temperatures you will always have a slower warm up, that is a direct result of the surrounding temperature and the use of heat from the heater unit.
The stat will not start influencing anything before it starts opening at about 80 degrees.:)

You can report factually by using the instrument pack to read temperatures.

Hi Kaiser and thanks for reply.

Appreciate that winter warm up will always be longer but my Tourer (with your improved housing and 80c stat) only reaches about 88c in about 4 miles and tends to stick there for most of the journey which is only about 7 miles.

My saloon on the other hand (standard MGR stat I think 88c or thereabouts) reaches 88 in about two miles and continues to 94/95 by about 3 miles.

I was wondering if a higher rated stat in the tourer (88c ? ) would get to the working temp a bit quicker ? And if a standard MGR stat would fit and work with your housing.

Both cars are 2.5 KV6 Autos and I tend not to use Air Con or econ heating until working temp reached.

The temperature will not be reached any quicker with a higher temperature stat.
The stat does no work (in order to affect the temperature) before it reaches its set temperature, when it starts to open.
If your car runs at 88 degrees, this is quite normal and will not use any more petrol than a car running at say 94 degrees. The difference you see is within the possible errors of the sensors and instruments, although it is quite possible that the one could run 5 degrees higher than the other.

I can assure you that at these temperatures there is no difference in petrol consumption. That only comes in if you run cold (or if you sensor says that the engine is cold), because the computer will overfuel in order to enrich the mixture, thinking the engine is starting cold. (choke)

A big user of heat is your heater, which can receive about 15% of maximum allowed flow in the system. If the heater is more efficient in the one car, that could perhaps explain some of the difference you claim to see.

If you want to make accurate comparisons you should switch both heaters off and then compare. This, by the way, has been done a number of times, and usually people find that there might be a difference, but usually small and much smaller than they anticipated.

Now I don't know who you are from your user name, and thus not which thermostat you have. If it has just a serial number, then it has a by-pass about 2% of max flow, to minimize vapour lock and thermal shock. If you have a serial number followed by an "s", you have about 1% bypass, and if an "e" none.

Whichever one you have, the main aim of these units is to protect your engine, and I think you will find that the unit does that.

As for the original thermostat unit, no, it will not fit. As for the temperature of the original stat, I seem to remember that I took out one rated at 82 degrees from my car originally, but this is memory.:shrug:

There is nothing wrong running at the temperatures you are experiencing.
My own experience is something like this
A/C on 80 to 90 degrees fairly constant and little affected by outside temperatures.
No A/c very dependent on outside temperature and load, but from 85 to over 100, sometimes up to bout 110 degrees, usually after a fast run and slowing down in traffic, with outside of about 30 to 35.

My own warm up is usually I guess about 2km for standard gauge to go to medium, followed by the temperature going to 80 in the outgoing cooling pipe (where my second gauge is located) about half a kilometer later. Ambient about 20 degrees.

Jules recommendations ~ KV6 thermostat
 

Kaiser, you're not listening to us!!!
At least five of your housings are running cold that I have fitted for members.:(

No1
They don't need such a big hole you are drilling in them.
1mm max not 4-5mm

No2
The O rings you supply are too large by about 1mm.
A few members have had leaks due to "nipped" seals.
I use OEM seals with less risk of "nipping" during insertion.
(with addition of silicone lubricant)

We have proved the large hole is causing the cool running, plus the stats you are fitting are too cool.
Ideally you need to find a stat like the OEM one with a Ball valve?
That's the reason I have not ordered any more from you for the last 8 months.
The last 2 Kaiser installs we carried out, I split the housings and put the OLD OEM stat inside.
Both worked a treat with Identical figures to what the owners were used to!

Your product would be fantastic with the above 2 problems sorted.
20deg C is a very hot day here in UK.
It is ZERO Centigrade here as we speak, we need the extra heat of my recommendations to keep our KV6's warmer

Hope this doesn't upset you but only trying to help!!

Not wishing to heap coals on the fire here...

Do owners in Oz who have had the metal thermostat fitted notice an increase in fuel consumption? Just wondering regarding ambient temperatures.

Is a thermostat available in the UK that can be used? The beauty of these metal ones is they can be opened to replace the thermostat if necessary. Could be regarded as a service item sort of thing?

Just a layman wondering out loud???

Edd

Jules, you should know that the thermostats are available with no by-pass. I supplied you one foc! The report you (repeatedly) promised on that unit was never done! Am I to take it that this is it??;)

The problems, as you see them, are easily solved. Ask for a model "e" or an "s", and fit whatever O-rings you feel comfortable about.

As for the engine running too cool. 88 degrees running is not "too cool", that is plainly nonsense.

Just like me then :D

To be fair (and applying laymans logic:)) I think its the shortish journies I mostly do which is highlighting the increased petrol consumption ie standard MGR stat 2/3 miles to working temp out of total trip 6/7 miles against 4/5 miles out of 6/7 with Kaisers. I do some weekend trips of 60 plus miles and the MPG on those is much the same between the two cars before and after fitting Kaisers stat to the tourer.

If its 2/3 or 4/5 miles to working temp doesnt really make a lot of difference in a total of 60 miles does it.

Re the drilled hole in the stat which Kaiser insists doesn't make a difference;
We're all too aware that any bypass hole simulates a partially open stat and does indeed lengthen the warmup times and reduces running temp by a couple of degrees.

Kaiser, have you read the "proof of the pudding" on the famous Diesel Stat thread here
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...8&goto=newpost

We rest our case!

Thanks for the reply

Our UK members want the their KV6's to run at the same temp as the OEM
ie
hotter than 88C typically 92 ish.



I apologise for the lack of feedback (stress & workload!!) with the undrilled one you supplied, but the customer concerned never got back to me ........so I'll never know on that one.

It's still a mystery as to the source of the OEM stat inserts as far as I know
as that would make the Metal housing mod 100% perfect.

Jules, relax! If I don't get feedback, I take it that things are fine.
If you worry about 4 degrees, get the one without the bypass, it is available.
But don't think I don't listen, I do.! if people squeak!!

As you might know, it is a case of mind over matter. You don't matter, and I don't mind!:p:

Hee I'm very relaxed Kaiser!
But it's a few owners with cold running and longer warm up (than they are used to) who are dissappointed.
Just trying to help but your very informed explanations are not helping us achieve our goal of a fantastic modification.

I've been reluctant to fit any more because the 5 member's installs were only 90% happy and I want them to be 100% happy!!

So lets work out together what the next step is.

Jules, you state this:
Do you have any update on this? I.e. have there been any long term problems or is everything perfect when using the original stat in Kaiser's housing?

I'm asking because I would like a metal thermostat housing that is less likely to break that the plastic one, but don't want cooling running or longer warm-up.

The only disadvantage I can see with this is that the themostat itself isn't being replaced whilst the system is taken apart, and new stats are only available in OEM housings (AFAIK).

Not sure now as respected member David3807 fitted on OEM stat in his metal housing only to find his was running too hot (around 100C) with Fan running excessively.

He then put Kaisers stat back after blanking the 5mm hole up (which we've now proved DOES shorten the warmup time) and now runs cooler again but still cooler than it should be due to the 80C stat Kaiser chose instead of 82C as chosen by MGR.

I just wish we could get Kaiser to put 82 C stats in his housings instead of 80C.
If he could also make the Housing internal bypass seating the same as OEM, we would order 100's of them! (that design change prevents us from choosing to fit the OEM Stat insert)

But at the moment I'm back to fitting OEM plastic types as there were just too many members reporting cooler than previous running temps plus longer warmup times.

Cooler engines cost us that valuable MPG here in cold UK, but I think Kaiser has yet to be convinced of this!!

Having today had a metal Kaiser and Stat fitted, is there any update?

Update:

Tourer 2.5 Auto

Original 4.5/5mm hole in stat blocked and another 1mm hole drilled. Kaiser stat refitted.

Last time I checked (about 4 weeks ago when the weather was cooler than today) engine was running about 92/93c which is a little cooler than before with original MGR stat and also a little cooler than my saloon 2.5 Auto which runs at about 96/97c. However warm up time only a little longer than with original MGR stat.

The downside of the smaller hole is that engine is pretty quick to get to 100c when I release accelerator and revs drop a bit - like leaving a motorway on a downhill exit ramp to a roundabout. Remember my cars are autos and a manual car will retain revs a bit more and thus coolant circulation. Ok the fan cuts in at 100/101c (I still have three speed fans on both cars) and reduces the temp but fan certainly working more often.

And thats where I have left matters for the moment largely cos the stat is giving engine temps pretty much the same as the MGR original and on cost grounds as I was paying for all the swapping about. The X Part dealer was pretty reasonable on his charges and I am sure that I was not charged the full time taken but nevertheless it was costing.

Would be nice to see what a Kaiser stat with say 1.5/2mm bypass hole would do though.

Which brings me to another potential downside really. In my research I looked for another stat 'element' opening at say 82c but couldnt find one that would fit. Thats not to say they dont exist just that I couldnt trace one. I tried Googling the trade name of the Kaiser stat and I believe they are commonly available in USA and South Africa but I found nothing in the UK. So what happens if/when the stat fails/sticks ??

Wow, noted the time of your response (do you sleep?).


Question:
Does the ECU tell the car to inject more fuel if the temp is below the old 92c general operating temp?

or does it not matter once the needle is pointing at 9 o'clock or if the temp is in the region of 75-85c.
M

In my view, getting the running temperature close to 100C average is ideal for the diesel. I know many people here start to panic whenever the ODB shows 100C or slightly above as if there's something amiss. Providing the stat is working and the cooling system is mechanically sound, there is a vast cooling capacity available and will ensure the coolant is maintained in the safe band. Remember this tops out at 115C. If you do some research through diesel enthusiast forums and also the reports produced by commercial haulage groups, you'll find the one thing that makes diesels run at their most efficient is getting the temperature up to three figures. I remain a lone voice on this but I'm expecting someone sooner or later will bite the bullet and stop worrying.

TC

Understood but does that apply to Petrols as well ???

Sometimes not so well !!!

As far as running temp goes, yes. They seem to do so it as standard anyway.

TC

Last Evening
Outside Temp = 13c
Journey Work to Home = 13miles (Motorway 11 miles the 2 Miles Urban Roads)
OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 69c-75c
Final Temp before parking up = 88c

Today
Outside Temp = 13c
Journey Home to Work = 13miles (Urban Roads 2 miles then 11 miles motorway)
OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 69c-75c
Final Temp before parking up = 85c

Oh dear Way too cool Mike!
Suspect the stat insert is faulty

Maybe not. Remember the 4/5mm hole.

I had the original hole blocked and a new 1mm drilled and can get the temp to sit at 88/90 for the first 10 miles of a run similar to Mikes.

Feedback from others in EU with Metal Housing and Stat would be interesting.

I have suspicions that the issue could be a combination of both diagnosis' or indeed either of Jules or David's opinions.

But this will need resolving, in the near future, as ECU will be issuing "More Fuel" instructions at these lower Temperatures (ie less than 92-96).

Calling all V6 Metal Thermo Housing users, Statistics on Running/ambient Temperatures required against Urban/Motorway Conditions.

This is important, for us V6 drivers , as the housing in itself is brilliant. Its just a matter of getting to understand the insert behaviour.

M

Bumpy Bump !!

I'll try but I have no plans for long trips for the foreseeable future. All short trips and then not many so I might get some funny figures.

Now I have to try and remember how to get to temp thingy in the diagnostics???

Edd

My V6 has been mothballed for 2 years so I'll have to rely on the 5 members I've fitted them to.:o

Last Evening (Wednesday)
Outside Temp = 18c
Journey Work to Home = 13miles (Motorway 11 miles the 2 Miles Urban Roads)
OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 69c-83c
Final Temp before parking up = 88c

Today
Outside Temp = 9.5c
Journey Home to Work = 13miles (Urban Roads 2 miles then 11 miles motorway)
OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 66c-74c
Final Temp before parking up = 83c

Today

Outside Temp = 13.5c

Journey Home to Work = 13miles (Urban Roads 2 miles then 11 miles motorway)

OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 73c-78c (mostly in the 77c)

General Speed Range = 50-70mph

Final Temp as speed reduced to 40-30mph, before parking up = 83-88c

Still would like see Statistics from other Metal Thermo's user in V6

M

One unhelpful comment. I think you can be sure it ran a lot warmer than that when the original stat was working right.

TC

I've fitted one of Kaiser's 'stats and have noticed no difference in fuel consumption whatsoever. I do mainly long motorway journey's anyway with my 2.5 ltr and get a consistant 26-28 mpg, it's the sort of journey a V6 should be doing!
I towed a 1400kg caravan in 28-30 degrees last week and i averaged 27 mpg overall for the 330 miles towing and 360 odd miles solo..
I've been well impressed with the car and with Kaiser's mod..
G

Thanks for the feedback on the mpg. Has you Temp needle been at 9am all the time or did it dip down towards 8am. I am assuming that you dont use the OBD means of viewing your temperature ie test 19 sub test 7 where you see the actual coolant temp by the Thermostat.
Either way glad you are happy with the performance of the product, it is indeed robust.

M

My needle stays put in all temperatures, at the 9 o'clock position. My car has now been through a severe winter, -16 degrees and recently +28 degrees and the needle didn't move from it's normal position.
When i first fitted the 'stat i took it for a run and had a temperature readings of 88 to 94 degrees, whilst stationary the fan cut in around 104 ish and shut off at around the 90 mark.
All temperature sensors are not exactly the same, they all have tolerances and i feel mine is working ok.

With a range of 75-115C, the 'normal' position covers up a multitude of sins (so to speak).

TC

Could not agree more with you T-Cut.:}
I will get to the bottom of this Calorstat Thermostat and its behaviour in more temperate climates like the UK.

Will be getting my hands on a couple of "Calorstats" in the near future, and will be trying to ascertain whether or not to have a small 1mm hole in the Upper disc or non at all, (compared to the 5mm hole- which I fully appreciate the advantages of ie By Pass, Anti Thermal Shock, air lock proofing etc).

All this with the aim of having OBD Temps in the region of say 80c - 96c which I trust everyone considers is the norm for V6's.

I am trying to prompt V6 users with Metal housings to use the OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 to feedback the actual Temp ranges they are experiencing, because the non plastic housing is excellent.

M

I know I'm in a minority on this but the optimum running temperature for petrol and diesels is 95-105C. Even the oft decried temperature gauge says 115C is the upper edge of 'normal'. On the V6, temperature should be trimmed to 95-100C by the slow speed fan system. So, it's clearly designed to be bang on the nail. The underlying trouble with all these cars is the thermostat and hydraulics of a sieve. The cooling system would be perfect if the stats/pipework were robust. The most reliable system IMO is the PRT arrangement, which keeps the 1.8s bang on the money. Just changing gear has a visible effect on the temperature as the water pump slows or speeds up, trimming the coolant flow by pressurising the diaphragm. A 1.8PRT will run all day in any weather at 95-105C. No matter how much heat is generated by any of these engines, the radiator/fan system is more than able to cope. The trouble is, it rarely gets the chance.

TC

Thanks for your research & persistence on these inserts Mike.

T-cut, is there any evidence that Diesel owners benefit with increased MPG by raising the running temp over the designed 88C?
With a fully functioning OEM Stat typical parameters are pretty steady at 87-91C

I've researched a few international diesel forums and as here, I noticed frequent discussion about running temperature. Also on the 'trade' forums, hauliers, etc. talk about it and they all agree that 100C or so is optimal for fuel efficiency. The hauliers need every 0.1mpg they can get of course.

I've no idea why the M47 stat is only rated at 88C when it would presumably improve things if it was set to say 95C. The petrol engines also have an 88C stat, but they all run near 95-100C as a rule. The reasons why are well known, so why wasn't the diesel made a special case? There's more than enough cooling capacity with all the engines to cope with any running temperature you want and of course the hotter that is, the more effective the cooling system becomes (delta T).

TC

EDIT: This is worth a read through: http://www.dieselsite.com/index.asp?...ROD&ProdID=186

For reference, 195F = 90C, 203F = 95C

Hello T-cut.

I saw your requests for more data on the metal thermostat from other countries. I'm from the Netherlands and today i did a little run on this mothers day.

Outside temperature 23 C to 25 C

Staring up temp 29c to 51 C idle on driveway waiting for SWMBO to get into the car and set up sat nav and such.

Drive will be distance driven then the running temp with an averige speed for that section
Distance TEMP Averige speed Remarks
0km 51c 0kph Left home
2.5KM 75c 30kph
4 KM 80C 80KPH STart of highway
7.5km 88C 120 KPH running on highway
10km 88C 140kph overtaking
15km 88C 130kph Cruising
20km 90C 140kph Cruising
25km 89/90c 130kph Crusing
30km 89C 120kph
35km 89/90c 100kph
40km 89c 80kmhkph
45km 88C 70kph
50km 91C 40kph

Statistics taken from the run

Overal averige run 75KPH
Distance traveled 50.5Km
Total time 38.00 minutes
Actual driving time 34 minutes
Stopped time (traffic lights etc) 4 minutes
Averige speed actual driving 86 KPH
Temparature end of drive 25 C (outside temp)
Temparature engine shut off when parking Highest noted 98C

When leaving the highway and comming to a stop at traffic lights or roundabout Let go of throttle and leave in gear the temp runs down from 89 to say 85 C. When idle at traffic light temp rises normal

When driving around town stopping and starting to drive around at 50KPH temp at idle will be at like 93 while waiting then within 200 yards driving be back at 88 89C

Drove back today too din't keep record but had the IPK on and noticed whatever the speed 150 160 120 110 i would be around 90ish C up and down 2 deg both sides. It always seems to want to settle the temp around the 88 89 C. If you accelerate from 100 to 120 the temp will rise from 88 to say 90 then keep driving 120 and the temp will start to drop again to 88.

Overall i do have noticed more mayo on my oil cap since fitting the kaiser stat. I do run short journy's a lot but it's gotten worse after getting the kaiser stat. Id say if we can get the temp up about 7 to 8 C on the stats it will be super. Enhough protection on the High temp side and enhough of an averige running temp to keep the engine nice and hot.

During this cold winter however it would take about 30 minutes for the car to warm up and was NOT funny. Seriously lacking in that department for sure. I'm guessing this system is set up for HOT running countries and not Northern/western europe.

We need to find a solution for this.

Hope this helps

PrometheusNL

Have just been for a 35 mile trip initially on Urban roads for about 7 miles then on motorway quality roads

Before starting off checked Coolant Level and topped up with about 1/2 pint, to get on Max mark in expansion tank.

Outside Temp = 20c

OBD Test 19 Sub Test 7 = Temp Range 88c-94c (mostly in the 88-89c range)

General Speed Range = 50-70mph

Final Temp as speed reduced to 40-30mph, before parking up = 94-104c

Parked up checked under the bonnet,evidence of excess water having been expelled from Cap (not the little overflow elbow), hoses felt pressurised, slight hissing sound from cap area, even with new Viton rings.

Like Prometheus, checked under Oil cap and evidence of increased mayo, dip Stick clean and free of mayo, so will be watching out. Curious as to where such moisture would be coming from, I know it has been humid over the last 2 days!

M


(I know I need to fit the Jules Resistor upgrade when it arrives, which should have the slow speed fan kick in at 100c)

hi mike ,, as the weather has been hot these last few days ,i decided to do a test on my cooling system ,, normally i have the a/c or at least the heater on low heat on ... i drove the car over the last 4 days without any a/c or fan running .i was hoping to see if the temp would shoot up and hit the 104 plus`s ,it never :confused: the highest i saw on the hans gauge was 99 whilst waiting at the lights .if your gauge is dropping to 8 oclck it sounds like air to me . infact when i hadmy first pipe go mine did just that along with a sound of gurgling water when i turned on the igntion,when the last hose went as i was bleeding it my gauge would rise then lower ,it was still full of air ..... hope you get to the bottom of it ...

Bump.

Do i still need to record temps on trips or is the data sufficient?

Prometheus, no need to continue I'll keep records.

Allright ill keep checking up to see when somebody has found a way to make our cars a little hotter :)

Nitroglycerin?

Edd:getmecoat:

Well now, it may be a case of what Mr Edd is suggesting :D, if the UK Rep for Calorstat/Vernet does not get his act together. I think I have caused him some embarrassment today in my persistence to find a UK supplier of the Stat used by Kaiser :-

i) Vernet/Calorstat's UK man suggested a Distributor in London last week as being able to supply their TH1528.80J. Followed up this morning with the distributor and was told that being out of Stock they had tried the UK importer FAI and was told "No can Do".

ii) Decided to speak to directly to Vernet in France, most helpful (including my inability to speak any French) and they said they would get some action on the matter for their UK demand.....................guess who I got a call from later in the day................yes their man in the UK who told the distributor "No Can Do".

The bottom line is that I will ensure we will have access to replacement Thermostats for the Metal Housings within the UK...................they are freely available on Mainland Europe via an Online Retailer "mister Auto" but its impossible to set up and account with them with a UK Postcode and telephone number at the moment.

IN THE UK WE NEED VERNET TH1528.80J or TH1528.84J THERMOSTATS WITHOUT ANY 5MM BY PASS HOLE,

So if we have any French Members willing to be a point of contact with http://www.mister-auto.com please PM me??

THE SAGA CONTINUES.

Todays driving Temperatures
Morning Ambient Temp 15c
Average Engine Temp 68-76c over 13 miles

M

i was looking for that 1528.84J one by Vernet but it seems even on the dutch site for Mr-auto the part is not available. IT does however show that the Vernet 1528.84J was used in a Couple of BMW models.

If the Vernet one isn't available wouldn't it be easyer to try to get another brand that has the same specs? for instance.

http://www.mister-auto.nl/fl/thermos...7059_g316.html

Attachment 8732


regards Prom

Totally agree and before the above I did a load of research over the last couple of weeks and no other make has the same dimensions as the TH1528 (80 or 84j). I tried QH and Valeo and a few others, thus my direct approaches to Vernet and Calorstat.

Mister Auto in France seem to be able to provide the necessary Thermostats, but I can't set up account from the UK with Mister Auto , thus unable to place an order for either

http://www.mister-auto.com/thermosta...151528.80.html

or

http://www.mister-auto.com/thermosta...151528.84.html which is the one I think is going to be more suitable to the UK or Northern Climates and prevent the over cooling and increased petrol usage!

So frustrating , so near yet so far

My running temp is in the range of 87-90c at the moment. I have no idea what size hole was drilled in my stat, possibly 1-2mm.

Have been digging around on the web myself.

I found this catalogue which has some useful information like equivalent thermostats.

For instance the equivalent Quinton Hazell stat is the QTH125, the measurements are slightly different to the TH1528.80J, QH info, would this work?

Doesn't look like the TH1528.84J was used in any vehicle.

Malc.

Like yourself, Mr Malcolm, I have been doing some research over the last couple of weeks and also downloaded the same handy documents, very useful indeed and interesting to know about the range and varieties of thermostats.

For instance the equivalent Quinton Hazell stat is the , the measurements are slightly different to the TH1528.80J, I agree that QTH125 seems to be the nearest equivalent. "Would it Work?" Well until either one of us tries it out or Kaiser can advise from his experience, we will have to wait.

"Doesn't look like the TH1528.84J was used in any vehicle." No it seems not, but given it is identical in dimension to the one Kaiser is fitting in his Ali Housings and has an opening temp of 84c, closer to the MGR 88c Stat, you will now understand my interest to get hold of it and trial it without hole ( as the by pass method is apparently used in our engines/stat housings.

I am expecting to be advised by Vernet / Calorstat that they will have these in the UK in the nearish future.

Any update on this ?

There is another thread discussing this with an option to buy one.

Edd

which one is that? im interested cheers-dan

I have just found it. Click Me

Well worth reading the whole thread to see the development of this substitute.

Edd

Mr. Kaiser, do you still sell the magical metal thermostat housings? A Rover?, Amsterdam, NL

I do.:}......

So how much does the whole kit (thermostat and 2 pipes) cost?

EUR 110 Pick up (in South Africa).
EUR 125, including postage with surface mail 8 weeks
EUR 140 2 weeks (air mail)
EUR 150 4 days (sent from within Europe)

All typical, depending on actual mail/post.

Are there any pics to go with post 1? - just asking in case anyone took a backup copy. :}

I have an address that I refer to in my pdf. Also by the same author, but that has also gone.!
I seem to remember that Mr Edd moved to the states.
That would maybe have induced a sale of his car and maybe also the amount of interest. The web site was based in the UK and has maybe not been kept.

So if anyone has a good series of shots of a thermostat change I can use in my pdf, please let me know.

Thanks.

What pdf?

I sent a hopeful PM to Mr Edd but I've had no reply. And Dr Dave (who did the work) hasn't been on the other forum since 2015.