Weird temperture behaviour 2.5 v6 - Page 13

Pruts3r · 21st August 2017, 08:53

Yesterday we took the engine further apart again. Removed the heads and figured out what (most likely) hapened.

Front bank had 2 broken valves. Only the cilinder on the left of the front row has had a 'kiss' from a valve and has an ever so slightly mark on it. Not deep. You can barely feel it. Also de camshaft was torn appart on the front were the timing belt wheel goes in. The timing wheel tried to rotate whilst the camshaft was frozen in place. When the wheel did rotate, it ripped appart de place were it slots in the camshaft. This was the reason timing is off now.

Underblock and liners and pistons are okay.

Rear bank was a-okay.

We noticed the heads were really dirty again whilst being professionally cleaned a week before and only having covered 175km. Lots of sludge.

We think that sludge got the camshaft to get stuck and one thing let to another. Or maybe there allready was a problem with a camshaft and now with it al being rebuild and torqued tight down the right way it got stuck. Anyway: camshaft froze, cambelt jumped and destroid camshaft.

So what now?
- I am going after a replacement head. Used, and with everything in and on it (valves, cam etc).
- New main cambelt just in case because it has had a whipping now. Rear belt didnt get to suffer.
- buy mls headgasket kit from rimmer (again)
- remove the sump and clean the enige of sludge
- put the thing togther again and hope....and pray....and hope some more.

We are thinking of renaming the car from Sir Drinxcelot to Lucifer because it looks demonic and posessed.
The AA truck that come to transport it had a crash as soon as my 75 set eyes on it. My friends mini started having weird trouble the moment the 75 was pushed in the garage there and the fact that it seems to not want to get fixed.
If i didnt have the vitesse parked in my garage at home but the 75 then a sign with "abandon al hope, he who enters here" would be in place above the door. When it is al done an exorcism might be in place.... we will see.

Any tips are allways welcome!!!

SD1too · 21st August 2017, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pruts3r

We think that sludge got the camshaft to get stuck ...

Do you? That must be some incredible sludge that you have in there.

I think the camshaft being fractured during the preceding repair process is far more likely. Were all the official MGR service tools properly used when the timing belt was removed/replaced I wonder?

Simon

zefrench · 21st August 2017, 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

Do you? That must be some incredible sludge that you have in there.

I think the camshaft being fractured during the preceding repair process is far more likely. Were all the official MGR service tools properly used when the timing belt was removed/replaced I wonder?

Simon

Good point Simon, the "typical" putting a wrench at opposite ends of the camshaft to tighten the bolts.

zefrench · 21st August 2017, 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pruts3r

Yesterday we took the engine further apart again. Removed the heads and figured out what (most likely) hapened.

Front bank had 2 broken valves. Only the cilinder on the left of the front row has had a 'kiss' from a valve and has an ever so slightly mark on it. Not deep. You can barely feel it. Also de camshaft was torn appart on the front were the timing belt wheel goes in. The timing wheel tried to rotate whilst the camshaft was frozen in place. When the wheel did rotate, it ripped appart de place were it slots in the camshaft. This was the reason timing is off now.

Underblock and liners and pistons are okay.

Rear bank was a-okay.

We noticed the heads were really dirty again whilst being professionally cleaned a week before and only having covered 175km. Lots of sludge.

We think that sludge got the camshaft to get stuck and one thing let to another. Or maybe there allready was a problem with a camshaft and now with it al being rebuild and torqued tight down the right way it got stuck. Anyway: camshaft froze, cambelt jumped and destroid camshaft.

So what now?
- I am going after a replacement head. Used, and with everything in and on it (valves, cam etc).
- New main cambelt just in case because it has had a whipping now. Rear belt didnt get to suffer.
- buy mls headgasket kit from rimmer (again)
- remove the sump and clean the enige of sludge
- put the thing togther again and hope....and pray....and hope some more.

We are thinking of renaming the car from Sir Drinxcelot to Lucifer because it looks demonic and posessed.
The AA truck that come to transport it had a crash as soon as my 75 set eyes on it. My friends mini started having weird trouble the moment the 75 was pushed in the garage there and the fact that it seems to not want to get fixed.
If i didnt have the vitesse parked in my garage at home but the 75 then a sign with "abandon al hope, he who enters here" would be in place above the door. When it is al done an exorcism might be in place.... we will see.

Any tips are allways welcome!!!

How is the tensioner pulley? I did not quite follow your reply , was it replaced prior to this latest failure ? Did you confirm it is secure against the rotation of the hex bolt ?

Pruts3r · 21st August 2017, 14:25

Tensioner pulley is fine. It wasnt replaced when the headgaskets were done.

Al parts of the original timing kit were used. The hooks an brackets and everything to aline and fix everything in the right position. He has al the tools (ex mgr headmechanic).

Maybe there allready was a problem with the camshaft. And now that everything was put together with the specific torques it got stuck. When we loosend the bolts only a fraction the camshaft moved again.

kaiser · 21st August 2017, 14:27

If the camshaft has seized, there will be marks on the aluminium in the bearing surface.
I think it is unlikely that has been the cause.

As for your evil car, here is a remedy:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths...019?nopaging=1

Pruts3r · 21st August 2017, 15:47

There was a brownish paste bearing surface and on the camshaft were it touched the bearings. Dryer than oil sludge. Almost looked like clay or dirt.

We were 300% sure the timing belt was put right. We marked everything up, took it appart and when putting it back we lined up de timing marks, our markings and used the timing kit. It run smooooooth as silk for the 175 km...

We did not touch the hex bolt. It is set at a certain point in the factory and best to leave it there and not mess with it (right?).

So i cant think of anything else then camshaft locking up for some reason.

Tomorrow the used replacememt head wil be picked up and hope for the best

Phil-T4 · 21st August 2017, 16:15

The hex bolt in the tensioner pulley is no longer factory set on ANY replacements, if you used a new one (which you should have done) it MUST be tightened once the belt tension has been set using the correct locking tools and procedures.

Pruts3r · 21st August 2017, 19:17

Okay. We will look at it when assembling it this time. Do you have the settings? Or do the tools give the setting? You say we should have replaced it.
The last time we did the belts we didnt. My mechanic said he never replaced them ("i have never seen a broken one on a 75 v6" he literally said) when i asked him. Can you explain to me why it is nescessary to replace it please?

(I am at home now. Not at the car or with my mechanic)

Bolin · 21st August 2017, 21:22

Thinking about the stuck camshaft and dried brown paste, presumably that is the sludge that has got up to the cam bearings and then dried out as it didn't lubricate as well as clean oil?

I have read of camshafts breaking due to an oil supply problem, so it could well be something like that happened in your case, as you suggest - it has been observed before, but not with sludge, rather a clean head lacking in oil.

Another potential cause of seized camshafts could be if the cam carriers got mixed up (they are matched to the heads), but if mismatched carriers trapped the cam then this would have been noticed when trying to fit the timing belt and the car wouldn't have got so far I think!

If the break at the end of the camshaft was due to incorrect tightening of the pulley bolt (i.e. holding cam by bolt at other end rather than by special tool or generic sprocket tool), I can't see how this would cause the camshaft to seize in its bearings. But apparently failure often occurs about a week after the work was done.

My V6 had a non-adjusted tensioner pulley for 2 years/8,500 miles after it was fitted without being adjusted when Andy Willi replaced my cambelts in 2011. I can't see how this would have led to your camshaft breaking though - apparently the pulley rotates onto its backplate, damaging the pulley surface, which in turn damages the belt, breaking it.

I think your thought of sludge being picked up and blocking the oilways makes sense, given that you had been losing coolant - presumably into the sump as well as the combustion chamber, hence the mayo?

21st August 2017, 08:53	#121
Pruts3r Avid contributor 1999 Rover 75 Sterling - Pewter Grey - Aubergine Leather & 1985 Rover 3500 Vitesse - Targa Red Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 122 Thanks: 40 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	Yesterday we took the engine further apart again. Removed the heads and figured out what (most likely) hapened. Front bank had 2 broken valves. Only the cilinder on the left of the front row has had a 'kiss' from a valve and has an ever so slightly mark on it. Not deep. You can barely feel it. Also de camshaft was torn appart on the front were the timing belt wheel goes in. The timing wheel tried to rotate whilst the camshaft was frozen in place. When the wheel did rotate, it ripped appart de place were it slots in the camshaft. This was the reason timing is off now. Underblock and liners and pistons are okay. Rear bank was a-okay. We noticed the heads were really dirty again whilst being professionally cleaned a week before and only having covered 175km. Lots of sludge. We think that sludge got the camshaft to get stuck and one thing let to another. Or maybe there allready was a problem with a camshaft and now with it al being rebuild and torqued tight down the right way it got stuck. Anyway: camshaft froze, cambelt jumped and destroid camshaft. So what now? - I am going after a replacement head. Used, and with everything in and on it (valves, cam etc). - New main cambelt just in case because it has had a whipping now. Rear belt didnt get to suffer. - buy mls headgasket kit from rimmer (again) - remove the sump and clean the enige of sludge - put the thing togther again and hope....and pray....and hope some more. We are thinking of renaming the car from Sir Drinxcelot to Lucifer because it looks demonic and posessed. The AA truck that come to transport it had a crash as soon as my 75 set eyes on it. My friends mini started having weird trouble the moment the 75 was pushed in the garage there and the fact that it seems to not want to get fixed. If i didnt have the vitesse parked in my garage at home but the 75 then a sign with "abandon al hope, he who enters here" would be in place above the door. When it is al done an exorcism might be in place.... we will see. Any tips are allways welcome!!! __________________ '99 Rover 75 sterling 2.5 auto in Pewter grey with Aubergine interior •Born on Wednesday the 23rd of June 1999 @ 11:35:32 •The 6367th 75 to be produced. •The 214th Pewter Grey 75 out of 442. •Probably one of a handful Pewters with Aubergine. Last edited by Pruts3r; 21st August 2017 at 09:01..

21st August 2017, 14:25	#125
Pruts3r Avid contributor 1999 Rover 75 Sterling - Pewter Grey - Aubergine Leather & 1985 Rover 3500 Vitesse - Targa Red Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 122 Thanks: 40 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	Tensioner pulley is fine. It wasnt replaced when the headgaskets were done. Al parts of the original timing kit were used. The hooks an brackets and everything to aline and fix everything in the right position. He has al the tools (ex mgr headmechanic). Maybe there allready was a problem with the camshaft. And now that everything was put together with the specific torques it got stuck. When we loosend the bolts only a fraction the camshaft moved again. __________________ '99 Rover 75 sterling 2.5 auto in Pewter grey with Aubergine interior •Born on Wednesday the 23rd of June 1999 @ 11:35:32 •The 6367th 75 to be produced. •The 214th Pewter Grey 75 out of 442. •Probably one of a handful Pewters with Aubergine.

21st August 2017, 14:27	#126
kaiser This is my second home 75 Tourer 2.5 Auto, 1.8T, 75V8ZT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Johannesburg ZA Posts: 6,200 Thanks: 1 Thanked 859 Times in 613 Posts	If the camshaft has seized, there will be marks on the aluminium in the bearing surface. I think it is unlikely that has been the cause. As for your evil car, here is a remedy: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths...019?nopaging=1 __________________ Worth his V8 in gold

21st August 2017, 15:47	#127
Pruts3r Avid contributor 1999 Rover 75 Sterling - Pewter Grey - Aubergine Leather & 1985 Rover 3500 Vitesse - Targa Red Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 122 Thanks: 40 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	There was a brownish paste bearing surface and on the camshaft were it touched the bearings. Dryer than oil sludge. Almost looked like clay or dirt. We were 300% sure the timing belt was put right. We marked everything up, took it appart and when putting it back we lined up de timing marks, our markings and used the timing kit. It run smooooooth as silk for the 175 km... We did not touch the hex bolt. It is set at a certain point in the factory and best to leave it there and not mess with it (right?). So i cant think of anything else then camshaft locking up for some reason. Tomorrow the used replacememt head wil be picked up and hope for the best __________________ '99 Rover 75 sterling 2.5 auto in Pewter grey with Aubergine interior •Born on Wednesday the 23rd of June 1999 @ 11:35:32 •The 6367th 75 to be produced. •The 214th Pewter Grey 75 out of 442. •Probably one of a handful Pewters with Aubergine. Last edited by Pruts3r; 21st August 2017 at 15:58..

21st August 2017, 19:17	#129
Pruts3r Avid contributor 1999 Rover 75 Sterling - Pewter Grey - Aubergine Leather & 1985 Rover 3500 Vitesse - Targa Red Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Rotterdam Posts: 122 Thanks: 40 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	Okay. We will look at it when assembling it this time. Do you have the settings? Or do the tools give the setting? You say we should have replaced it. The last time we did the belts we didnt. My mechanic said he never replaced them ("i have never seen a broken one on a 75 v6" he literally said) when i asked him. Can you explain to me why it is nescessary to replace it please? (I am at home now. Not at the car or with my mechanic) __________________ '99 Rover 75 sterling 2.5 auto in Pewter grey with Aubergine interior •Born on Wednesday the 23rd of June 1999 @ 11:35:32 •The 6367th 75 to be produced. •The 214th Pewter Grey 75 out of 442. •Probably one of a handful Pewters with Aubergine. Last edited by Pruts3r; 21st August 2017 at 19:49..

21st August 2017, 16:15	#128
Phil-T4 I really should get out more....... MG ZT-T, Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Olney Posts: 2,969 Thanks: 245 Thanked 1,088 Times in 657 Posts	The hex bolt in the tensioner pulley is no longer factory set on ANY replacements, if you used a new one (which you should have done) it MUST be tightened once the belt tension has been set using the correct locking tools and procedures.

21st August 2017, 21:22	#130
Bolin This is my second home Rover 75 2.5 V6 Connoisseur SE 4dr manual Wedgewood Blue 2 04-05/06/2001 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: N.E. Hampshire Posts: 4,624 Thanks: 289 Thanked 308 Times in 243 Posts	Thinking about the stuck camshaft and dried brown paste, presumably that is the sludge that has got up to the cam bearings and then dried out as it didn't lubricate as well as clean oil? I have read of camshafts breaking due to an oil supply problem, so it could well be something like that happened in your case, as you suggest - it has been observed before, but not with sludge, rather a clean head lacking in oil. Another potential cause of seized camshafts could be if the cam carriers got mixed up (they are matched to the heads), but if mismatched carriers trapped the cam then this would have been noticed when trying to fit the timing belt and the car wouldn't have got so far I think! If the break at the end of the camshaft was due to incorrect tightening of the pulley bolt (i.e. holding cam by bolt at other end rather than by special tool or generic sprocket tool), I can't see how this would cause the camshaft to seize in its bearings. But apparently failure often occurs about a week after the work was done. My V6 had a non-adjusted tensioner pulley for 2 years/8,500 miles after it was fitted without being adjusted when Andy Willi replaced my cambelts in 2011. I can't see how this would have led to your camshaft breaking though - apparently the pulley rotates onto its backplate, damaging the pulley surface, which in turn damages the belt, breaking it. I think your thought of sludge being picked up and blocking the oilways makes sense, given that you had been losing coolant - presumably into the sump as well as the combustion chamber, hence the mayo? __________________ "...the new Rover 75, which is a fabulous car......I think it looks fabulous....It's like sitting in a Rolls Royce......For me, this is the star of the show.....it looks so good" - J. Clarkson, motoring journalist on the launch of the Rover 75 in 1998.