Is a B&D Simple Start safe to use?

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

Even if it chucks its 18v into the cars electrical system ...

That's what I'm trying to determine with Vinnie's help, based on your likely supposition that it doesn't!

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

... that looks like an SMPSU, from which the 12v might be generated too, though I suppose it might also be a charger circuit, or indeed both.

If you're right, the output is not going to be 18v is it. Why should it be as high as that?

Simon

[Alan_G]

Originally Posted by Supervinnie40

Well, I kinda lost the basic point each party is trying to make, and I kinda think each party has long lost the point they are trying to make.

But we have found out, that the battery-booster (my device) does work. If the battery is just to low to turn over the engine (but not completely empty), this device will give it a bit of 'boost' that will allow to turn over the engine. As soon as the engine is running, you should be fine (hopefully).
So, the device works.

I'll try to think of something that will allow me to measure the voltage when the device is actually being used. Then we might disclose how 'safe' it is.

I got bored/lost reading most of it (I am an electrical dunce), but glad to hear it works.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by VMax1000

I think arguing is not the correct term.

It's more a discussion for the benefit of others.



As for having no idea of the qualifications of others.....that's debatable as well.



Sometimes you have to take things with a pinch of salt but as always on a rather large community.....it's a mix of people.



We all make mistakes or wrong assumptions, myself included, but if it sparks an exchange of ideas............great.



I don't have to be right, close will do



As one of my managers always said, no problem is that big, a cup of tea can't solve it. I'm going to get one now.

Discussion for the benefit of others???
I'm new to this forum, but I did not find the above discussion helpfully, entertaining maybe, but decidedly unhelpful. The problem is that the op did not get a helpfull answer to the question.
I'm no expert, but I do have an understanding of electronics, and two important points have not been mentioned.
1: you should attempt to start a modern car with a low battery, in doing so you run the risk of scrambling the engine management computer by producing voltages that it simply does not understand.
2: the actual question, I don't believe such a device would work, it's use will be limited at best. if the output voltage is 12v it will do harm in itself, but see 1 above. On the other hand if the output is 18v as suggested, that is the maximum design voltage for many electronic devices. Perhaps the resistance of any connections might ensure the full18v would not reach the processors, but you should consider this before using the device
Les

[VMax1000]

Originally Posted by Polly

Discussion for the benefit of others???
I'm new to this forum, but I did not find the above discussion helpfully, entertaining maybe, but decidedly unhelpful. The problem is that the op did not get a helpfull answer to the question.
I'm no expert, but I do have an understanding of electronics, and two important points have not been mentioned.
1: you should attempt to start a modern car with a low battery, in doing so you run the risk of scrambling the engine management computer by producing voltages that it simply does not understand.
2: the actual question, I don't believe such a device would work, it's use will be limited at best. if the output voltage is 12v it will do harm in itself, but see 1 above. On the other hand if the output is 18v as suggested, that is the maximum design voltage for many electronic devices. Perhaps the resistance of any connections might ensure the full18v would not reach the processors, but you should consider this before using the deviceLes

OP just posted it did work

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Supervinnie40

But we have found out, that the battery-booster (my device) does work.

No we haven't Vinnie. You are currently unable to establish it's output voltage, so that conclusion cannot be drawn.

Originally Posted by VMax1000

For now Vinnie confirmed it works ...

No, he hasn't. He hasn't tried it because it's output voltage is 0v!

If the output voltage of the 'Simple Start' is approximately 12v, it won't work; Harry has shown you that with today's experiment.

If the output voltage is between 13.5 and 14.5 it will behave similarly to an alternator but with a much reduced ability to provide current (it has only 6Ah available). It's therefore far from certain that enough charge would be transferred to drive a starter motor.

If the output voltage is 18v I would not endorse it as 'safe' since this level is much higher than that which could be reasonably expected to be found in a vehicle's circuits. I would not want to risk damage to electronic components inside ECUs (although others might).

So Vinnie & Herman, you need to save your jubilations until after the proper tests have been carried out. That is the scientific way to do it.

Simon

[Supervinnie40]

Originally Posted by SD1too

No we haven't Vinnie. You are currently unable to establish it's output voltage, so that conclusion cannot be drawn.

Read post #6 please.
I know it works, that hasn't ever been my question.

My original question was; is it safe to use? Because I don't wanna damage the intricate electronics on the 75.
This question hasn't been answerable, because I haven't been able to confirm the output voltage.

Let me just repeat something I have said a couple of times before:
This device does not restore the full battery! It will give your battery just enough power to turn over the engine a few times, but than it will be gone again. The manual also says to turn off all the systems in the car (because those will drain the battery as fast as this device can 'charge' it.
When the car battery hasn't got enough power to turn over the engine, this device (when connected for a good 10 to 15 minutes), will give the battery a little bit power. Just enough to turn over the engine.

I had to use the device in my previous (much smaller) car. And it worked. But it's no miracle cure. And like Harry said in post #72, you shouldn't use it in a life threatening situation.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Supervinnie40

My original question was; is it safe to use? Because I don't wanna damage the intricate electronics on the 75.
This question hasn't been answerable, because I haven't been able to confirm the output voltage.

Exactly! Your original question has been answered: we don't know!.

Your other conclusions will mislead others, so I cannot accept them without these changes:

This device does not restore the full battery! It will give your battery just enough power to turn over the engine a few times ...

Replace "will" with "might". It's success depends upon the exact state of charge of the vehicle battery. Just because your previous car responded doesn't lead to the conclusion that every car will. The device will simply not have enough resources (6Ah) to enable a deeply discharged battery to turn a starter motor. It will also be useless if the vehicle's battery has a faulty cell, which is a common reason for battery failure.

The manual also says to turn off all the systems in the car (because those will drain the battery as fast as this device can 'charge' it.

When you get into your 75/ZT to attach your 'Simple Start', the BCU will "wake up", so many circuits will begin operating. Some of these you can turn off, such as interior lights; but other circuits cannot be disabled because they are BCU controlled. You would have to wait 30 minutes to be sure that the 'shut down' process had been completed. Of course this won't happen if the vehicle battery is absolutely flat, but in that event the 'Simple Start' will be useless anyway.

When the car battery hasn't got enough power to turn over the engine, this device (when connected for a good 10 to 15 minutes), will give the battery a little bit power. Just enough to turn over the engine.

Replace "will" with "might". No-one can give that guarantee because it is dependant upon so many factors. One of these, as I have previously pointed out, is that the 'Simple Start' itself needs to be continually kept in a fully charged state. In practical everyday use, this is very unlikely to be the case, as you found out a few days ago.

The 'Simple Start', for all these reasons, is not a reliable method of replenishing a battery which fails to turn a starter motor. It is obviously preferable to maintain your vehicle battery in good condition in the first place (which takes the same effort as keeping the 'Simple Start' serviceable).

Sales of products such as this rely on generating fear that the person will be stranded by a flat battery, then promising a solution which the product cannot possibly deliver with certainty. It's rather like having an insurance policy with a few cleverly hidden exclusion clauses, and we all know about those, don't we?

Simon

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by Polly

On the other hand if the output is 18v as suggested, that is the maximum design voltage for many electronic devices. Perhaps the resistance of any connections might ensure the full18v would not reach the processors, but you should consider this before using the device
Les

Sensible question so I will answer....

The output volts to charge the main battery, is almost certainly 18v, but remember - once plugged into the car, its voltage will be pulled down to match the voltage of the cars own much bigger battery. The one slight concern I would have is that the cars battery might be o/c, or disconnected. I suspect the resistance of the lead and the voltage drop would prevent any over voltage damage.

There again, car electronics are made to pretty robust standards - I would expect no electronics damage below say 20v.

[Polly]

Thank you Simon I think that is pretty close to what I tried to say. Unfortunately I missed a couple of words in my last post, so I will repeat; somewhere on this forum I found a warning NOT to try to start your car with a low battery, because you can easily confuse the immobiliser. Makes sense, because I know from experience that before the starter motor ceases to crank, the computer starts to chatter in utter confusion. My concern is that the device output is so low that it is unlikely to charge the battery sufficiently to remove that risk. Admittedly after employing the device for half an hour or so you might one brief shot at starting the engine, but then if you switch everything off and leave the car for a similar period, that too might work.
I have only had my 260 for one month, but I think I might just sell it and go back to the Triumph forums, they are a much more friendly bunch
Les

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Polly

I have only had my 260 for one month, but I think I might just sell it and go back to the Triumph forums, they are a much more friendly bunch

Hi Les,

It's never very pleasant to see disagreements, particularly when emotions run high as in this thread. As well as batteries, strong opinions are also held about tyres, engine oil and fuel consumption! Fortunately, this isn't the norm at the 75 and ZT Club. The meetings are indeed friendly affairs where members are very generous with their time (and spare parts) to help out others in need. Our technical help is second to none (battery charging excepted you'll probably say ), and many solutions have been devised for the common problems. But what I like particularly about our forum is that a new member doesn't have to part with any money in order to find out what's on offer. We hope everyone will stay, because differing views and debate are how problems are eventually solved for the benefit of all.

All the best Les.

Simon