V6 rear belt timing tool

[kaiser]

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

Not at all Simon.

It is possible to do the job safely without using the special tools, but you need an alternative method to ensure you don't damage the camshaft when tightening the sprocket bolts, and you can't guarantee the timing is spot on.

By safely I mean no damage to the engine and the belts will be fine until they are due to be replaced.

Well, you can actually.
With the engine in the locked position, place the marks on each pair of the rear sprockets in line. The timing is then spot on.
Easy to see and get right.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

It is possible to do the job safely without using the special tools ... and you can't guarantee the timing is spot on.

Ahh, so you're saying that the job can be done without special tools safely, but that the timing might be incorrect; the emphasis being on safety not accuracy.

What is the point of having a safe engine with incorrect timing?

Simon

[Mike Noc]

Originally Posted by SD1too

Ahh, so you're saying that the job can be done without special tools safely, but that the timing might be incorrect; the emphasis being on safety not accuracy.

What is the point of having a safe engine with incorrect timing?

Simon

Yes I agree, and as mentioned like to get things spot on if I can, but in practise changing the belts without the tools, if done carefully, will likely result in such a small variation as to be not noticeable.

So in effect you are getting away with it - it's all relative.

Originally Posted by kaiser

Well, you can actually.
With the engine in the locked position, place the marks on each pair of the rear sprockets in line. The timing is then spot on.
Easy to see and get right.

Oh no it isn't. As mentioned, it would be correct if the inlet and exhaust camshafts were set to run at the balanced setting, which the marks denote, but they weren't.

Not far out, but certainly not spot on either.



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[RogerHeinz57]

I really find this quite strange, we are talking about working on engines that are now becoming quite a rarity in terms of well looked afterness, we subscribe to a club that shows some members with little interest in working on them properly and being incorrectly advised on technique and tooling for the specific task. So effectively, we are encouraging others to risk a good engine's longevity by cutting corners. The techniques are quite well documented on how to do this task, disasters of gloom and doom have been recorded several times but still we get some laughable advice from some who seem clueless.
I for one am not too keen on the KV6 engine, but for those who choose this power plant, they need to expect some hefty bills to maintain them correctly to provide reliability. Many garages simply refuse to work on them (Which is far better than attempting to bodge the job and balls it up all together).
Again, the car belongs to the owner, and it's their choice to ruin it or keep it lovely.
I for one would love to see how one tightens the rear cam drive pulleys through 90 degrees without any locking tools having applied the correct torques to begin with !
Thank goodness only Phil T-4 and I work on my car as some of the inept statements provided here would be of great concern to me feeling happy with my car, and it's reliability.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

... in practise changing the belts without the tools, if done carefully, will likely result in such a small variation as to be not noticeable. So in effect you are getting away with it - it's all relative.

Actually Mike, when I first heard about these special tools I too did not understand why the KV6 couldn't be timed carefully (as you say) using marks and basic principles in the conventional way. Then I read about the inlet cam sprocket hub and how the toothed wheel could be moved independently of it. It was when I watched the Rover video that I began to realise that this engine's camshaft drive design is more complicated than I had appreciated. I read the accounts of those who have done this job and no-one seems to have used no special tools at all. Some use one or two of them, and others fabricate their own, but it does not appear to be possible to do it using no special tools whatsoever. During the procedure both inlet and exhaust camshafts will move from their 'timed' positions and, due to the valve spring pressure, it appears to be extremely difficult if not impossible to reset them without the help of at least one of the special tools. Remember that we're dealing with four camshafts and three interlinked belts here. It's not a walk in the park!

Simon

[Mike Noc]

I'm not saying you can time them correctly Simon without the official tools, but you can get close enough if you are careful - and people do.

As I have already said, if it was me I'd use the tools.

And as John says, if you want to look after your car as per the service schedule then either do the work using the tools or get someone else who knows what they are doing to carry out the work using them.

But we are a broad church on the forum; some people buy these cars for a couple of hundred quid and want to run them as cheaply as possible - they aren't going to spend on the official tools and want to know ways to do things on the cheap.

Like you I initially wondered why the tools are used on the KV6 when they aren't on the K series. Reading 1955diesel's posts gave me a far better understanding of their use and also why they floated the main belt cam sprockets and didn't key them as per the norm.

I agree that it isn't a walk in the park, but it isn't rocket science either, and if the chap responsible for designing both the cam system and the tools also wrote an instruction detailing how to do the job without them then it must have been a safe and workable option, even if it wasn't ideal.





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[kaiser]

The timing marks from the factory are used on the v6, like they are on the 1.8, to be lined up with the engine in the safe position.
On the v6, they form a straight line on the rear sprockets, on the 1.8, on the front.


http://workshop-manuals.com/landrove...cylinder_head/

[Mike Noc]

The documentation isn't strictly accurate. The marks won't exactly line up. How do we know this? Two reasons; the chap responsible for the design has already told you, and if you read further down you will get to this interesting bit of info:

Refit:

NOTE: Following front or rear timing belt
refitment, it is possible that, after rotating the
engine and positioning the crankshaft pulley to
the 'SAFE' position, the timing marks on the
rear timing gears may be misaligned. This
misalignment is acceptable provided that the
timing belt refitting procedure was carried out
correctly.

As to why the information is incorrect, we know that they were still fine tuning the cam timing late on, and so the documentation was possibly written when the inlet and exhaust cams were balanced, and never properly updated?

And to be fair, if you follow all the instructions it isn't that important, as that part only deals with locking the engine in it's safe position and ensuring the cams aren't 180 degrees out.


Kaiser you received this answer from 1955diesel when you mentioned the same thing before, I don't understand why you won't accept it?

It seems a perfectly good explanation to me.

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect information.

I don't want to argue the point with you yet again so will not be making further posts in this thread, but as the designer of both the cam drive system and the setting tools, I think I have some knowledge of why the tools should be used whenever possible.

Just for information, I did issue an instruction for setting the timing without tools for use on Diplomatic Service cars. This was achieved by scribing new timing marks on the rear pulleys rather than using the existing marks. These are only there to aid positioning and to set timing between the inlet and exhaust cam. It is only coincidence that they nearly align when the engine is set to its timing position. Perhaps I should have moved the marks round a few degrees to avoid the confusion.

If I remember correctly, the fixed marks on the rear pulleys give balanced timing between the inlet and exhaust profiles. On many engines this turns out to be the optimum setting and is a good place to start. However, production tooling is frozen at least 12 months before job 1 whereas the engine tune including ignition, fuel and cam timing are subject to change right up to the wire and sometimes well beyond. The optimised setting for cam timing on the V6 turned out not to be the balanced setting, but was a little retarded (or was it advanced?) from this position and this timing figure is set by the front timing tool. It changed again for the 190 engine and this requires another setting.

[andy willi]

but it does not appear to be possible to do it using no special tools whatsoever. During the procedure both inlet and exhaust camshafts will move from their 'timed' positions and, due to the valve spring pressure, it appears to be extremely difficult if not impossible to reset them without the help of at least one of the special tools. Remember that we're dealing with four camshafts and three interlinked belts here. It's not a walk in the park!

have replaced many cam belts on this engine and have had no problems i can do them without the locking kit.( it is a hard bit of kit to use correctly.)

my best tip is tipex used to mark every thing up , fiddly job to do i know. but if you want to time it up perfectly , use tipex to replace the belts then fit the tools and time it with them . the inlet cams have a 4 degree movement on them and anyone who gets it right is better than me as most of the aftermarket timing tools dont fit perfectly i have two different kits to time them and one will fit and one wont , time it with the lazer one and check with the sealy one cams are out and do it the other way round and the same. TIPEX RULES HERE

andy

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by andy willi

... i can do them without the locking kit.

What's your answer to John's question please Andy?

Originally Posted by John H

I for one would love to see how one tightens the rear cam drive pulleys through 90 degrees without any locking tools having applied the correct torques to begin with !

Simon