Unexplained coolant loss

martyw · 20th July 2015, 17:09

Hi, I have a 2003 Rover 75, 1.8 turbo with 70000 recorded miles. I bought the car with an hgf / water lose problem and have recently replaced the HG, water pump, belt and tensioner and oil pump. The engine has run for 1 and a half hours in total and only travelled 6 miles and that was to get the MOT done which it passed with flying colours. The engine sounded perfect and in the garage they said the engine would pass the water glass test it was running so smoothly. I checked the water before I left and it was on the maximum line however on starting the engine after the MOT it was firing on three cylinders with smoke coming from the exhaust. This problem cleared although there was still smoke but I was able to recover the car back home without over heating. The engine management light was lit and on checking the 2 codes it was engine misfire and engine misfire due to fuel starvation. The cooling system took 3 quarters of a litre of water to bring the level back to the maximum line.
I have checked the oil which shows signs of water mixed in with it but there are no signs of oil in the cooling system. The tops of the pistons are dry when looking though the plug holes and the plugs them selves showed no signs of water. I am not entirely convinced that the problem is due to a hgf again because of the amount of water lose in such a short period of time, and the history of the car shows that there was an unexplained water lose before I bought it. I locked the engine flywheel before removing the head so there was no movement of the liners while I was working on the engine, and I also checked the liners for possible cracks and as far as I could see there were none.
My question is has anybody had the same problem and found it was caused by something other than the head gasket. I have a feeling that it could be that the turbo was damaged before I commenced work and perhaps the seals have perished allowing water to pass from the water cooling in the turbo to the oil passages but I am unsure. I also checked to see if there was any signs of coolant lose around the engine but found none at all.
Any suggestions would be most appreciated as I am at a loss to what it could be.
Regards and many thanks Marty

edit: Tuesday 21 July, I have now drained the coolant and oil and found no trace of cross contamination in either.

wullie480 · 20th July 2015, 17:20

Was the inlet manifold gasket changed as well?
This is a common weak point.

martyw · 20th July 2015, 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wullie480

Was the inlet manifold gasket changed as well?
This is a common weak point.

Thanks for your reply, yes all the gaskets were changed and torqued to the correct poundage. I am very concerned with the amount of coolant lost in such a short period of time with out any outward signs on the cylinder block or driveway
Regards Marty

DMGRS · 20th July 2015, 17:57

Which kit was used? The MLS and Payen BW750 gaskets have different failure modes, so knowing which will help diagnose.

martyw · 20th July 2015, 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by DMGRS

Which kit was used? The MLS and Payen BW750 gaskets have different failure modes, so knowing which will help diagnose.

Thanks for the reply, I was in two minds which type to use, the one on the car was an MLS type but it fell to pieces when I removed it. So I elected to go for the single layer silicone type after checking the liner height of each cylinder and replace with new stretch bolts. Perhaps I should have refitted an MLS gasket and gone for a better brand, but I still don't understand how there could be such a large amount of fluid loss in such a short period of time.
Regards Marty

T-Cut · 20th July 2015, 19:47

If the car was being driven when the head gasket failed, oil emulsification might have rapidly put paid to the turbocharger. It's only a bronze bush bearing and must have a good supply of engine oil. Any water mixed with it will be enough to ruin the turbo. The symptoms you describe could equally apply to several causes, but having looked at the others, I'd suggest looking at the turbo. It's easy to check by removing the large bore hose that goes to the throttle body. If there's any trace of oily water in there, you'll need a new turbo unit. While the hose is off, check for any slop on the compressor fan. If you can feel it waggling, the bearing is shot.

TC

martyw · 20th July 2015, 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Cut

If the car was being driven when the head gasket failed, oil emulsification might have rapidly put paid to the turbocharger. It's only a bronze bush bearing and must have a good supply of engine oil. Any water mixed with it will be enough to ruin the turbo. The symptoms you describe could equally apply to several causes, but having looked at the others, I'd suggest looking at the turbo. It's easy to check by removing the large bore hose that goes to the throttle body. If there's any trace of oily water in there, you'll need a new turbo unit. While the hose is off, check for any slop on the compressor fan. If you can feel it waggling, the bearing is shot.

TC

Thank you for your reply, I will check the turbo tomorrow.
Regards Marty

T-Cut · 20th July 2015, 20:08

To check for turbo shaft slop, you have to remove the large inlet hose that comes up from the intercooler. But if you find water/oil in the upper, outlet hose you'll know it's failed.

TC

DMGRS · 20th July 2015, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyw

Thanks for the reply, I was in two minds which type to use, the one on the car was an MLS type but it fell to pieces when I removed it. So I elected to go for the single layer silicone type after checking the liner height of each cylinder and replace with new stretch bolts. Perhaps I should have refitted an MLS gasket and gone for a better brand, but I still don't understand how there could be such a large amount of fluid loss in such a short period of time.
Regards Marty

That's good to know - the elastomer gasket is a fairly solid item (the new revisions anyway, as long as it's a genuine Payen and not eBay tat).
The elastomer gasket usually fails oil-to-water (and vice versa) so that'll be where the water is going, if that's the problem.

kaiser · 21st July 2015, 09:23

If there is water loss internally, there are a few ways that can happen.

Headgasket.
Inlet manifold gasket.
Crack in head, block or liner
Liner seal at the bottom compromised.

The engine light indicates it finds its way into a cylinder, and you have misfire,

I think we can thus safely ignore faults in the cooling systems and outside leaks as the main cause.

I would pressurize the cooling system to gain more information.

I would also just like to stress, that the standard torquing of the head gasket will give too low values, and that water loss can easily come from that.

And, worry about all the other add-ons discussed only when you have found
the root cause of your problems.

I include a link.
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=214880

of special interest note the torque procedure discussed in post #34.

20th July 2015, 17:09	#1
martyw Newbie 2003 Rover 75 1.8 Turbo SE saloon Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Grimsby Posts: 24 Thanks: 8 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unexplained coolant loss SOLVED Hi, I have a 2003 Rover 75, 1.8 turbo with 70000 recorded miles. I bought the car with an hgf / water lose problem and have recently replaced the HG, water pump, belt and tensioner and oil pump. The engine has run for 1 and a half hours in total and only travelled 6 miles and that was to get the MOT done which it passed with flying colours. The engine sounded perfect and in the garage they said the engine would pass the water glass test it was running so smoothly. I checked the water before I left and it was on the maximum line however on starting the engine after the MOT it was firing on three cylinders with smoke coming from the exhaust. This problem cleared although there was still smoke but I was able to recover the car back home without over heating. The engine management light was lit and on checking the 2 codes it was engine misfire and engine misfire due to fuel starvation. The cooling system took 3 quarters of a litre of water to bring the level back to the maximum line. I have checked the oil which shows signs of water mixed in with it but there are no signs of oil in the cooling system. The tops of the pistons are dry when looking though the plug holes and the plugs them selves showed no signs of water. I am not entirely convinced that the problem is due to a hgf again because of the amount of water lose in such a short period of time, and the history of the car shows that there was an unexplained water lose before I bought it. I locked the engine flywheel before removing the head so there was no movement of the liners while I was working on the engine, and I also checked the liners for possible cracks and as far as I could see there were none. My question is has anybody had the same problem and found it was caused by something other than the head gasket. I have a feeling that it could be that the turbo was damaged before I commenced work and perhaps the seals have perished allowing water to pass from the water cooling in the turbo to the oil passages but I am unsure. I also checked to see if there was any signs of coolant lose around the engine but found none at all. Any suggestions would be most appreciated as I am at a loss to what it could be. Regards and many thanks Marty edit: Tuesday 21 July, I have now drained the coolant and oil and found no trace of cross contamination in either. Last edited by martyw; 2nd August 2015 at 19:02.. Reason: change heading

20th July 2015, 17:20	#2
wullie480 This is my second home 1 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Banned Posts: 5,195 Thanks: 528 Thanked 1,022 Times in 786 Posts	Was the inlet manifold gasket changed as well? This is a common weak point. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

20th July 2015, 17:57	#4
DMGRS Discount MG Rover Spares Rover 75 CDTi, 2x MG ZS180 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Hythe, Southampton Posts: 11,321 Thanks: 456 Thanked 3,377 Times in 2,027 Posts	Which kit was used? The MLS and Payen BW750 gaskets have different failure modes, so knowing which will help diagnose. __________________ Your trusted MG Rover specialist! Tel: 02380 001133 / Email: [email protected] We now have a 'chat' function on our site for even quicker replies. Give it a try! Remember - discount code FORUM5 for 5% off

20th July 2015, 19:47	#6
T-Cut This is my second home Rover75 and Mreg Corsa. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sumweer onat mote o'dust (Sagin) Posts: 21,753 Thanks: 341 Thanked 3,660 Times in 2,924 Posts	If the car was being driven when the head gasket failed, oil emulsification might have rapidly put paid to the turbocharger. It's only a bronze bush bearing and must have a good supply of engine oil. Any water mixed with it will be enough to ruin the turbo. The symptoms you describe could equally apply to several causes, but having looked at the others, I'd suggest looking at the turbo. It's easy to check by removing the large bore hose that goes to the throttle body. If there's any trace of oily water in there, you'll need a new turbo unit. While the hose is off, check for any slop on the compressor fan. If you can feel it waggling, the bearing is shot. TC

20th July 2015, 20:08	#8
T-Cut This is my second home Rover75 and Mreg Corsa. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sumweer onat mote o'dust (Sagin) Posts: 21,753 Thanks: 341 Thanked 3,660 Times in 2,924 Posts	To check for turbo shaft slop, you have to remove the large inlet hose that comes up from the intercooler. But if you find water/oil in the upper, outlet hose you'll know it's failed. TC

21st July 2015, 09:23	#10
kaiser This is my second home 75 Tourer 2.5 Auto, 1.8T, 75V8ZT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Johannesburg ZA Posts: 6,200 Thanks: 1 Thanked 859 Times in 613 Posts	If there is water loss internally, there are a few ways that can happen. Headgasket. Inlet manifold gasket. Crack in head, block or liner Liner seal at the bottom compromised. The engine light indicates it finds its way into a cylinder, and you have misfire, I think we can thus safely ignore faults in the cooling systems and outside leaks as the main cause. I would pressurize the cooling system to gain more information. I would also just like to stress, that the standard torquing of the head gasket will give too low values, and that water loss can easily come from that. And, worry about all the other add-ons discussed only when you have found the root cause of your problems. I include a link. http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=214880 of special interest note the torque procedure discussed in post #34.