1.8 turbo petrol 2003. won't start!! - Page 3

8511swann · 27th January 2011, 11:01

Is it possible that the oil loss caused a seizure at the top of the engine and snapped something?. I've heard cars that sounded like they were winding over completely normally, but had a cam shaft in 6 pieces!

Mike Noc · 27th January 2011, 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by debbiefudge

Hi all, again.
My Partner has read everything now!
Just to say, I got it wrong in my first posting!
It's defo the CRANKSHAFT sensor we have renewed!

He's just told me, that not all the oil came out apparently!
Says the tank holds about 7 litres of oil, and only had to put in about 4 litres in and it was full again.
So, does that make any difference???????????

He's French! What can I say! LOL!

If you replaced 4 litres of oil then it does look like the engine stopped due to lack of oil, which is serious.

Before spending any more money do a compression test. If you have compression, then as suggested before its back to basics fuel and sparks at the correct time.

If the compression test fails then the head will have to come to find out why.

Mike

debbiefudge · 27th January 2011, 22:48

Hi guys. Thought I'd be in the driver's seat tonight... I'm Marc. Debbie's partner. And yes, I'm French (LOL).
Thanks for all your replies.
Here is the account, blow by blow if you'll excuse the pun of what happened that fateful night:
drove approximately 16 miles when felt a sudden loss of power going up hill.
Parked the car within 100 yards. No warning lights on dash came on.
Opened the bonnet. Steam everywhere (it was dark, so couldn't see clearly).
Noticed a pipe leaking underneath, so thought it was a water leak
Tried to start the car. No success.
Car didn't crank at the time.
Called recovery who, when checking on the leaking pipe said it was not coolant leaking, it was oil.
Got home on a flatbed.
Since then, pipe was replaced.
Pipe links injector rail to blockhead.
Fuel filter O ring also replaced and orange clip fitted.
fuel pump hums.
K-Seal in when we got the car.
Battery is brand new Bosch. Was fitted to car after breakdown.
all lights, wipers and horn working.
Inertia switch checked.
New crankshaft fitted.
Check sparking at the plugs. Found to be ok. Gapped correctly.
Head gasket changed by previous owner (Rover garage).
Can smell fuel too, in engine when cranking.
Injector rail is ok too.
Camshaft sensor is also ok.
Car cranks but will not start.
Double checked fuses and relays. None blown or faulty.
When taken plugs out (bought a decent set and changed prior nto breakdown), they were not oily. Just normal.
Coolant level also ok. At the moment it's got blue coolant in
Topped oil with about 3.5 litres.
Have yet to do a compression test, now the kit is here. I can only work on the car at weekends, weather permitting.
I consider myself to be a good mechanic. I've the ability to service and fix cars myself, but I'm at the end of my tether with this one!

Regards,
Marc

harrymclarry · 27th January 2011, 22:48

i know you have had oil loss which isnt good, but just to throw something in i found once. After continual cranking, the bores became wet with petrol and stopped the rings creating any compression. I squirted a little 10w/40 down each bore and sure enough she picked up. Only an outside chance i know, but worth a mention perhaps.

Martynp · 27th January 2011, 23:42

Well I will comment on the coolant to save others having to cover that aspect of your description

K seal used in coolant system, this is not recommended for our cars. Forum concensus.

There must be a reason why it was used, very likely that the thermostat housing/ associated plastic pipeing was/is leaking
Original hose clips used in the coolant system are not of the best type either,
recommended change is to jubilee type

The correct antifreeze for our cars is red OAT type, cheapest from Vauhall outlets.
I would drain all the blue out, flush & refill. 50/50 mix coolant & water
Do not mix red with blue, different composition----

You mentioned steam in the darkness,
Header tank correct level is some 2" below the header tank cap, just above the internal grid, level marked on the passenger side of tank neck, difficult to see, use a torch shone inside the neck.
This gap allows room for coolant to expand when engine up to temperature
System should be filled under a vacumme to eliminate air trapped which is usualy indicated by cold air at compartment vents, usualy on the passenger side, when heat has been called for

Header tank screw cap is marked 140 which equates to about 20lbs/square inch of coolant pressure in the system when hot & thermostat open.
These do not last forever, new cost circa £15 from Xpart

WE always say here that red colour staining indicates source of coolant leaks, guess you should look for blue staining

Thats all from me, will leave the other points to forum experts who probably own the same model as you have & will speak from experience, very likely learnt the hard way!
Good luck, You will win!

debbiefudge · 28th January 2011, 07:41

Just a quick reply.
We know about the red coolant and had already bought some, to flush and refill with red 50/50.
Just hadn't got around to doing it yet.
The K Seal was put in as a preventative measure, not to repair anything.
Have read for's and against's on here for it.
Regards, Debbie.

SD1too · 28th January 2011, 08:10

Hello Marc and welcome to the forum. On behalf of everyone, thank you for posting a detailed account of what happened which is useful, but one or two things worry me.

1. Steam suggests overheating yet you did not see any warnings in the instrument pack. In these circumstances the engine fan should have been running even though you had stopped the engine.

2. Your recovery company said that you had an oil leak from a pipe which "... links injector rail to blockhead ..." I'm puzzled by this. The injector rail contains only fuel surely?

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by debbiefudge

New crankshaft fitted.

Mon dieu (excuse my French!). Do you mean the crankshaft position sensor?

4.

Quote:

Head gasket changed by previous owner (Rover garage).

Hmmm; steam, oil leak, car won't fire. I wonder if the correct modified gasket and uprated bolts and "ladder rail" (I think that's the right term

) were fitted.

5.

Quote:

Coolant level also ok. At the moment it's got blue coolant in.

So despite the steam there was no coolant loss?

(With respect to MartynP I wouldn't drain it yet; that's the least of your problems.)

So with your helpful evidence I'm in agreement that a compression test would be a good idea. Where steam and oil are concerned I would also not rule out a problem with the turbo, but if that was siezed would it stop the engine firing? Can a 1.8T expert advise please?

Simon.

T-Cut · 28th January 2011, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by debbiefudge

- - - -
Tried to start the car. No success.
Car didn't crank at the time.

If you mean the starter wasn't turning the engine over, then I'd say it had seized at that stage. That doesn't sound good. Engine grinds to halt/overheat/steam/total oil loss (almost). Since then, contraction has allowed the starter to turn it over, but nothing works. I'd say the pistons/rings are shot/no compression. Now requires professional investigation and repair could be rather expensive. I hope I've misinterpretted what happened.

TC

goldievvc · 28th January 2011, 17:49

As said from the start, this sounds like it`s dumped all it`s oil somewhere (no sign of a trail from car when it broke down?) and seized to a halt due to temperature. The best thing you can do from here is a compression test. In all honesty you are wasting your time and money doing anything else. If you were to bring it to my workshop or my work, that is the first thing i`d be doing based on your story.

i can`t think of any pipe that links the fuel rail to the head other than the breathers on the cam cover to inlet, one has a on-way-valve in it that is only found on the turbo`s to stop oil being blown back and the other a breather. if the one-way-valve had failed, you`d have engine oil everywhere. i would have said the more likely of hoses to fail would be on the front of the engine linking the turbo to the block (oil return), or at extreme the braided pipe from thefilter housing to turbo (oil feed). can`t think of anything else that has oil in it connecting to the engine.

Martynp · 28th January 2011, 18:39

Follow on from T-cut post 28

Think we need to understand more of the initial actions.
"Engine, sudden loss of power & car brought to a halt"

Recognising that, did you depress the clutch & coast to a halt?
Was the engine still running at that point? Presumably in neutral gear ?

Or did you drive the car still to find a safe place to park? Then turning the ignition off yourself

Looks as if head removal to investigate state of cylinder bores/cylinder head valves initialy, is highly likely.
Your choice concerning compression testing

Also very carefull inspection of the head gasket, failed between bores? signs of let by between cylinders or to engine externaly?
Later correct type gasket fitted?

As stated coolant system is the least of your worries at this time.
Only posted to save others from doing so, who were considering your total description of events.

27th January 2011, 11:01	#21
8511swann Avid contributor 2000 Rover 75 Saloon 2.0 V6 Petrol Classic SE (Manual) Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Minsterley Posts: 189 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is it possible that the oil loss caused a seizure at the top of the engine and snapped something?. I've heard cars that sounded like they were winding over completely normally, but had a cam shaft in 6 pieces! __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

27th January 2011, 22:48	#23
debbiefudge Avid contributor rover 75. 1.8 turbo. 2003. petrol. manual. silver Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: portslade Near Brighton. East Sussex. Posts: 175 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Car won't start Hi guys. Thought I'd be in the driver's seat tonight... I'm Marc. Debbie's partner. And yes, I'm French (LOL). Thanks for all your replies. Here is the account, blow by blow if you'll excuse the pun of what happened that fateful night: drove approximately 16 miles when felt a sudden loss of power going up hill. Parked the car within 100 yards. No warning lights on dash came on. Opened the bonnet. Steam everywhere (it was dark, so couldn't see clearly). Noticed a pipe leaking underneath, so thought it was a water leak Tried to start the car. No success. Car didn't crank at the time. Called recovery who, when checking on the leaking pipe said it was not coolant leaking, it was oil. Got home on a flatbed. Since then, pipe was replaced. Pipe links injector rail to blockhead. Fuel filter O ring also replaced and orange clip fitted. fuel pump hums. K-Seal in when we got the car. Battery is brand new Bosch. Was fitted to car after breakdown. all lights, wipers and horn working. Inertia switch checked. New crankshaft fitted. Check sparking at the plugs. Found to be ok. Gapped correctly. Head gasket changed by previous owner (Rover garage). Can smell fuel too, in engine when cranking. Injector rail is ok too. Camshaft sensor is also ok. Car cranks but will not start. Double checked fuses and relays. None blown or faulty. When taken plugs out (bought a decent set and changed prior nto breakdown), they were not oily. Just normal. Coolant level also ok. At the moment it's got blue coolant in Topped oil with about 3.5 litres. Have yet to do a compression test, now the kit is here. I can only work on the car at weekends, weather permitting. I consider myself to be a good mechanic. I've the ability to service and fix cars myself, but I'm at the end of my tether with this one! Regards, Marc

27th January 2011, 23:42	#25
Martynp Passed Away Rover 75 2.5V6 Tourer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Forest east Posts: 812 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Well I will comment on the coolant to save others having to cover that aspect of your description K seal used in coolant system, this is not recommended for our cars. Forum concensus. There must be a reason why it was used, very likely that the thermostat housing/ associated plastic pipeing was/is leaking Original hose clips used in the coolant system are not of the best type either, recommended change is to jubilee type The correct antifreeze for our cars is red OAT type, cheapest from Vauhall outlets. I would drain all the blue out, flush & refill. 50/50 mix coolant & water Do not mix red with blue, different composition---- You mentioned steam in the darkness, Header tank correct level is some 2" below the header tank cap, just above the internal grid, level marked on the passenger side of tank neck, difficult to see, use a torch shone inside the neck. This gap allows room for coolant to expand when engine up to temperature System should be filled under a vacumme to eliminate air trapped which is usualy indicated by cold air at compartment vents, usualy on the passenger side, when heat has been called for Header tank screw cap is marked 140 which equates to about 20lbs/square inch of coolant pressure in the system when hot & thermostat open. These do not last forever, new cost circa £15 from Xpart WE always say here that red colour staining indicates source of coolant leaks, guess you should look for blue staining Thats all from me, will leave the other points to forum experts who probably own the same model as you have & will speak from experience, very likely learnt the hard way! Good luck, You will win! Last edited by Martynp; 27th January 2011 at 23:57.. Reason: Vacumme fill----

28th January 2011, 18:39	#30
Martynp Passed Away Rover 75 2.5V6 Tourer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Forest east Posts: 812 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Follow on from T-cut post 28 Think we need to understand more of the initial actions. "Engine, sudden loss of power & car brought to a halt" Recognising that, did you depress the clutch & coast to a halt? Was the engine still running at that point? Presumably in neutral gear ? Or did you drive the car still to find a safe place to park? Then turning the ignition off yourself Looks as if head removal to investigate state of cylinder bores/cylinder head valves initialy, is highly likely. Your choice concerning compression testing Also very carefull inspection of the head gasket, failed between bores? signs of let by between cylinders or to engine externaly? Later correct type gasket fitted? As stated coolant system is the least of your worries at this time. Only posted to save others from doing so, who were considering your total description of events. Last edited by Martynp; 28th January 2011 at 19:03.. Reason: typo

27th January 2011, 22:48	#24
harrymclarry Newbie Rover 75 saloon Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Stevenage Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i know you have had oil loss which isnt good, but just to throw something in i found once. After continual cranking, the bores became wet with petrol and stopped the rings creating any compression. I squirted a little 10w/40 down each bore and sure enough she picked up. Only an outside chance i know, but worth a mention perhaps.

28th January 2011, 07:41	#26
debbiefudge Avid contributor rover 75. 1.8 turbo. 2003. petrol. manual. silver Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: portslade Near Brighton. East Sussex. Posts: 175 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just a quick reply. We know about the red coolant and had already bought some, to flush and refill with red 50/50. Just hadn't got around to doing it yet. The K Seal was put in as a preventative measure, not to repair anything. Have read for's and against's on here for it. Regards, Debbie.

28th January 2011, 17:49	#29
goldievvc Avid contributor MG ZT-T 190 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Falkirk Posts: 129 Thanks: 10 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	As said from the start, this sounds like it`s dumped all it`s oil somewhere (no sign of a trail from car when it broke down?) and seized to a halt due to temperature. The best thing you can do from here is a compression test. In all honesty you are wasting your time and money doing anything else. If you were to bring it to my workshop or my work, that is the first thing i`d be doing based on your story. i can`t think of any pipe that links the fuel rail to the head other than the breathers on the cam cover to inlet, one has a on-way-valve in it that is only found on the turbo`s to stop oil being blown back and the other a breather. if the one-way-valve had failed, you`d have engine oil everywhere. i would have said the more likely of hoses to fail would be on the front of the engine linking the turbo to the block (oil return), or at extreme the braided pipe from thefilter housing to turbo (oil feed). can`t think of anything else that has oil in it connecting to the engine.