Help !! Car won't start after I shorted the battery

[Fraser Mitchell]

I was inspecting the engine breather on the V6, and found it cracked. Whilst doing so I tried to move the alternator lead out of the way, and momentarily earthed the battery getting a big spark. I did not have the ignition key in, and all the power was off.

However, now I can turn the engine over but it won't start, and there is an E symbol next to the P for the transmission indicator, (it's an automatic). Key plipper does nothing, it won't lock the car, although the indicator lights flash as normal.

Can anybody tell me what has happened ? I suspect the immobiliser has detected something from the momentary earthing and shut off the starting circuit. Can I do anything, or is it a job for the experts ?

[GreyGhost]

Don't know what damage may have been done but would advise a reboot. Disconnect battery for about 30 minutes and then reconnect

[JohnDotCom]

It has switched to Emergency Program the "E" on auto gearbox.
Try what GG says above first then come back if no joy.

[Fraser Mitchell]

Waited 30 minutes then re-connected battery.

Put key in, and still got the 'E' indicator on the gear display, no noises from the alarm or anything. Everything else appears normal, dash display comes on and runs through its routine, trip miles is still there as well as total miles, but although engine turns over willingly, car will not start. All fuses in the underbonnet box are OK.

I just cannot believe such a little momentary event, which must surely occur in a lot of garages when people work under the bonnet, can cause such a problem. Everything on the car was switched-off, the ignition key was not even in its slot, for heavens sake ! I am really upset about this; I think I'll get a 20 year old car, they are simpler, and don't have traps for the unwary like this.

[JohnDotCom]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with Helpful advice.
There is so many things you could check for non starting, so not going to run through all of them before further advice arrives.
Hoping no damage to ECU in this process of shorting Out or Alarm/Mobiliser module.
A T4 would certainly help but that means getting it to a garage.
Have you checked the fuses under the Glovebox as well?
A possibility (small) that battery may not have enough charge?
I take it all was fine before the Flashover?

[JohnDotCom]

Fuse 36 under Glovebox area is the Immobiliser and alarm sounder 5Amp.
Fuse 8 is the Engine immobilisation 5Amp.
Check these before proceeding further well check all the fuses under there first.

[Fraser Mitchell]

No, I have not checked fuses under the Glovebox, presumably these are easy to get to.

Everything was totally normal previously. Just the engine breather needs replacing, which caused my little 'short' when attending to it.

Next time I'll leave it to the experts.

[Fraser Mitchell]

Fuse 8 - OK
Fuse 36 - OK

It's begining to sound like 'Get a Man In' time.

[JohnDotCom]

Anybody out there with any advice for Fraser Please.
What might he have blown?

[Kandyman]

All i can think of is the battery has been zapped and now is not up to the job of starting the car ? try another battery and putting some jump leads on?

Good luck

[David3807]

Hmmm. If E is showing on the gear selector this means a fault with the gearbox or gearbox electronics or perhaps no instruction from the main ECU.

Therefore perhaps the main ECU fuse which in my handbook is No 34 and 10a.
There is of course the underbonnet fuse for engine management No 5 and again 10a.

Would a blown immobiliser fuse let the engine turn over at all ??
Anyway in my handbook fuses shown as follows:

Incar: 7 (5a Immobilisation, Cruise), 17 (5A IPK, Engine immobilisation, ATC control) 20 (30a Fuel Pump), 26 (5a Antitheft alarm, Engine immobilisation).

In addition underbonnet fuse 2 (20a Ignition coils (petrol models) engine management (all models)

By the way have you got a handbook. I ask cos it seems from past threads that the fusebox arrangements were changed over the years and the numbers I have mentioned may not relate to the numbering in you car.

Hope this helps.

[Fraser Mitchell]

I tried disconnecting/reconnecting battery again, with the 30 mins interval, but no joy. Trip miles has gone, though. Everything else appears normal except for the 'E' on the autobox indicator, and also there is no light on the gearshift escutcheon by the lever, to indicate which gear is selected.

Plipper signal is recognised by the receiver, because the indicator lamps flash, but the central locking does not work. If I try with a door open, the horn sounds as usual, but no locking.

Battery turns the engine over with its usual alacrity, it's well charged up, but car will not start. Clearly there is no petrol or spark there.

It seems as if the immobiliser no longer recognises my key when I put it into the ignition and try to start the car, or when I try to lock or unlock it.

As regards fuses, all those under the bonnet are OK. and all those relating to immobilise and

Looks like its the bus to work tomorrow.

[Departed]

Try the big alternator fuse in the underbonnet box. The one that's bolted in. It's the biggest big one, at the top of the box, going across. Shorting the alternator this is the only one likely to blow.

Most things are fed from one side, but some bits from the other and I suspect the engine ECU might have no power to injectors. Immo is happy otherwise you wouldn't be able to turn the engine over at all.

[Fraser Mitchell]

It's funny you mentioned this fuse. I checked all the big fuses, but this one seemed OK, but thinking about it, it seems to have resistance in it. Volts at the alternator side is around 6v, whereas it's 12 on the battery side of it.

Is it possible for this to fail in this way - some volts, but not enough ?

[Departed]

Volts could be coming from somewhere else. 12v one side, 6v the other is not right. The fuse is a big bit of metal, so should have same volts both sides.

So I'd be 99% certain this is your problem. The fuse is meant to protect the alternator wiring so shorting out where you did would almost certainly take it out.

To be certain, disconnect the battery (be sure you do this) and take the fuse off. Then check the fuse using the resistance meter of your multimeter. It should be close to zero ohms.

If it is the problem, think very carefully about doing anything other than getting a new fuse!

[Fraser Mitchell]

Dear Lowedb

You weren't 99% correct, you were 100% bang-on !! I shunted the fuse with a bit of wire, and Eureka, away the car went. Then the alternator output started to melt the wire, so it was turn engine off quick time !

Yes, as you say, the 6V must have come from somewhere else. When I checked the fuse with the battery disconnected, I got a resistance, but clearly this was fooling me because it was the path the 6v had obviously taken !

Now I need to get the fuse. I would hope this is easy to get, the nearest MG Rover agents are at Northwich or near Stoke-on-Trent.

And of course I still need the damn engine breather, the cause of all the trouble in the first place ! Why do we fiddle with our cars, I ask ?

[JohnDotCom]

Glad your Sorted as to the fault Fraser.

[Fraser Mitchell]

Folks

Many thanks for rallying round; wonderful to be in this club, it really is. I so much wanted to meet people at the recent rally near the Lakes, but company business intervened unfortunately.

Of course I now need a new 150amp fuse, so I'm not out of the woods yet.

I think there are lessons to be learnt here, (for me at least)

1. Be very careful with metal tools in the engine compartment !!!!

2. An AVO meter is a useful tool but interpretation of the results can be troublesome if you don't know the wiring layout and feeds to equipment. I would never have thought that a feed to parts of the electronic equipment could go anywhere near the alternator; this was always on a 'branch line' in any car I have ever dealt with. But then, modern cars have things constantly running even though the ignition switch is turned off, like immobilisers and alarms etc. I suppose this is a 'secret' path avoiding the obvious one of the ignition switch which thieves like to by-pass.

3. Don't check fuses in situ, remove them first, unless you can clearly see the fusible metal. I did not take the 150 amp fuse out because it seemed very difficult, (almost impossible). There are two little keep-lugs above it, even though it is securely bolted in at the connections. These lugs are peculiar, they are very difficult to push out of the way, and seem to serve no obvious purpose. With this is mind, I thought there must be some secret to it, so I checked it in situ, and fooled myself into thinking it was OK.

[stocktake]

I agree, where else would you receive so much info in your hour of need for FREE?

The collective Genius of the guys on here have saved my bacon more than once. Any time of day or night there always somebody around to help. I bet there is an air of relief in Crewe tonight. Why not celebrate and press the paypal button at the top of the page :D


Part no LLH102660 - Breather Pipe KV6

[Departed]

I would never have thought that a feed to parts of the electronic equipment could go anywhere near the alternator; this was always on a 'branch line' in any car I have ever dealt with. But then, modern cars have things constantly running even though the ignition switch is turned off, like immobilisers and alarms etc. I suppose this is a 'secret' path avoiding the obvious one of the ignition switch which thieves like to by-pass.


Actually, it's related to protecting particular things from reverse voltage.

If someone jumpstarts a car the wrong way round, it can fry lots of very expensive engine ECUs and so on. The alternators diodes act as a sort of protection, but will fry themselves, unless of course there's a fuse. Then the diodes limit the reverse voltage for long enough for the fuse to blow, and your expensive engine ECU stays alive.

You can't protect everything that way, and some things can be designed to take it anyway.

Glad to be of help.

[JohnDotCom]

Always disconnect the Battery if working under the bonnet with metal tools for anything than normal service items.
Shut down the Computer system correctly also and ensure you have the Security number for Radio etc.
Buy a Cigar lighter battery saver to prevent any problems.

HINDSIGHT = A wonderful thing to have, but always to late! :D

[Kandyman]

Well done guys glad it's getting sorted.

well done lowedb on coming up with the answer.

[colin32]

Dear Lowedb

I shunted the fuse with a bit of wire, and Eureka, away the car went. Then the alternator output started to melt the wire, so it was turn engine off quick time !

?

Not a good idea but you may have got away with it. If your bit of wire had melted while the engine was running, it could have taken out the alternator and maybe the ECU.Also it's quite easy to test a fuse in circuit - just measure across the fuse with a meter on volts and if it reads anything other than 0 volts it's suspect.

[Fraser Mitchell]

Of course now I have to find the 150 amp fuse. The Russian website with all the parts drawings, (really useful site, this, http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rover2.ru%2f) list it as YQG100260 and lists it for Land Rover as well as Rover.

Hope I can find one tomorrow.

[David3807]

Try this link to track one down. There seem to be plenty about both in Rover and Land Rover.

http://www.thepart.com/en/ (http://www.thepart.com)

[JohnDotCom]

Give Rimmers or your local XPart dealer a ring in morning.
Costs around £7.85 you have the correct part number.
or ask Les at SMC he may have one on his Recycled bits.

[Departed]

Of course now I have to find the 150 amp fuse. The Russian website with all the parts drawings, (really useful site, this, http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ru_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.rover2.ru%2f) list it as YQG100260 and lists it for Land Rover as well as Rover.

Hope I can find one tomorrow.

You have a PM

[Keith]

That is the kind of secondhand part most breakers are bound to have as not many go pop!

I think you have been lucky their is a similar thread about a popped Cluster after an alternator swap which may also have been down to a spike

[Fraser Mitchell]

All's well that ends well

Just a note to let you all know that car is running beautifully again ! Many thaks to everybody for their prompt help.

Today I got the fusible link AND a new engine breather from a local MG Rover agent in Northwich - ordered this morning, available this afternoon, fitted late afternoon; good service in my book. Agent is Barbers of Northwich.

[Kandyman]

Glad your back on the road,

[ragitty]

Always disconnect the Battery if working under the bonnet with metal tools for anything than normal service items.
Shut down the Computer system correctly also and ensure you have the Security number for Radio etc.
Buy a Cigar lighter battery saver to prevent any problems.

HINDSIGHT = A wonderful thing to have, but always to late! :D

Hi JDC hust read your post and this got me wondering, how do we shut down the computer system? and secondly I purchased my rover and was not given a radio code, am I able to get this code from other sources in the event of my battery being disconnected, regards Lee

[JohnDotCom]

Make sure firstly you open door and Boot/tailgate where computer is and that you can see it.
Also open bonnet.
Now take out key, and watch the light on Computer unit (the one with the sat Nav disc in) after about 30 seconds the Light should completely extinguish, now it is safe to disconnect battery but if you turn on anything electrical or open a door etc before disconnecting the whole process will need repeating.
WARNING: If you just disconnect Battery it will result in a New Computer requirement.

[ragitty]

Make sure firstly you open door and Boot/tailgate where computer is and that you can see it.
Also open bonnet.
Now take out key, and watch the light on Computer unit (the one with the sat Nav disc in) after about 30 seconds the Light should completely extinguish, now it is safe to disconnect battery but if you turn on anything electrical or open a door etc before disconnecting the whole process will need repeating.
WARNING: If you just disconnect Battery it will result in a New Computer requirement.

JDC Thank you for your comments, once again I have gleaned a little bit more knowledge about looking after my rover, your opinion is appreciated thank you.

[JohnDotCom]

No Problem at all, Glad to try and help.