N402 vs 7045e

[beinet1]

Hi all,

Just another ATF fluid thread.....

As we all know, the Texaco N402 ATF should be primary oil to use. I have read a few places that this one has been replaced by the texamatic 7045E and that this one shall be equalient. Does anyone know if there is any documentation anywhere that confirms this???

Reason for asking:
I have tried two different N402 compatible oils from the aftermatked buth my gearbox has still the typical "wrong or old oil" behaviour. It might be mechanical related for all i know, but I would like to try "the rigth stuff" before opening her up. It seems that my local HydroTexaco here in Norway is able to supply Texamatic 7045E, but there is no reason for trying this if it is not "the same" as the N402 fluid. I see some places that the 7045E is listed as DXIII compatible which doesn not sounds good to me.

[beinet1]

Just a little update:

I have been in contact with my local supplier of the Texaco products. They claims that the texamatic 7045E oil is a DXIII based fluid. According to their lists, I should use the following Texaco ATF fluid Havoline multi-vehicle ATF: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSPage.aspx?directPDSLink=true&language=en&region=EAME&txtPDSNumber=Havoline%20multi-vehicle%20atf&lbLanguage=ENGLISH&lbCompany=EAME

Here is the product datasheet for the texamatic 7045e oil: https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDSPage.aspx?directPDSLink=true&language=en&region=EAME&txtPDSNumber=texamatic%207045e&lbLanguage=ENGLISH&lbCompany=EAME

So, Does this means that the Texamatic 7045e oil is not compatible to our Jatco boxes???
Also have to mention that the texamatic oil cost 1/3 of the other oil and the other aftermatket oils I have tried.

[capese21]

Rimmers will supply the correct fluid and afaik send it to Norway.

Part number VYK000040.


http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-VYK000040

[beinet1]

Rimmers will supply the correct fluid and afaik send it to Norway.

Part number VYK000040.


http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-VYK000040

Seems to be the only alternative if I want the real stuff.

[crofts]

I have probably had the data sheet in my file for 8 yrs now. But it was not from this that I posted the info.
I phoned what turned out to be a well clued up Auto Specialist who was the very first to actually replace the cracked reverse piston for a member, 'box in' (instead of every one till then being told recon.box). Repair was around £500, bit different to the £1000 plus for recon box, without fitting.
I had made contact with him to chat about 'box in' repairs but also to ask about fluids for the Jatco box. He then read the contents of a Jatco workshop bulletin/ circular which clearly stated 7045E as being newly approved for Jatco boxes. He carried 7045E in a 210 litre drum.
There are MANY garages that think Dexron III is suitable for ALL boxes. If you look back at 'john.com' posts you will see at this time he phoned 10 Rover/MG dealer workshops. Only 1 of the 10 replied that N402 was the correct fluid (this was before we knew of 7045E) and they used Dexron.
Strange to say but we had not realised that N402 was stocked in dealer spares before the above.
I have posted the above many times now on .org before this club was established.
Of further interest, of other oil Co's I contacted, None had any idea of recommended fluids for Jatco boxes though CASTROL, main supplier then of Dexron, replied to me that THEY DID NOT HAVE A FLUID SUITABLE FOR THE jATCO BOX.
So if your box has always had 'clean' N402 or 7045E, and develops a problem, it is not the fluid. It's almost certainly cracked reverse piston or solenoids.

[beinet1]

I have probably had the data sheet in my file for 8 yrs now. But it was not from this that I posted the info.
I phoned what turned out to be a well clued up Auto Specialist who was the very first to actually replace the cracked reverse piston for a member, 'box in' (instead of every one till then being told recon.box). Repair was around £500, bit different to the £1000 plus for recon box, without fitting.
I had made contact with him to chat about 'box in' repairs but also to ask about fluids for the Jatco box. He then read the contents of a Jatco workshop bulletin/ circular which clearly stated 7045E as being newly approved for Jatco boxes. He carried 7045E in a 210 litre drum.
There are MANY garages that think Dexron III is suitable for ALL boxes. If you look back at 'john.com' posts you will see at this time he phoned 10 Rover/MG dealer workshops. Only 1 of the 10 replied that N402 was the correct fluid (this was before we knew of 7045E) and they used Dexron.
Strange to say but we had not realised that N402 was stocked in dealer spares before the above.
I have posted the above many times now on .org before this club was established.
Of further interest, of other oil Co's I contacted, None had any idea of recommended fluids for Jatco boxes though CASTROL, main supplier then of Dexron, replied to me that THEY DID NOT HAVE A FLUID SUITABLE FOR THE jATCO BOX.
So if your box has always had 'clean' N402 or 7045E, and develops a problem, it is not the fluid. It's almost certainly cracked reverse piston or solenoids.

The issue is, I have never had OEM N402 fluid in my box, only N402 compatible aftermarked fluids. Basically, I think this should be OK but since I have not tried the OEM stuff, I don`t know for sure. As stated in the second post, the two different local suppliers of Texaco products in my area, don`t recomend the 7045e for my box as they claim that this is a DXIII fluid and have nothing to do with N402. They recommend the other Havoline fluid for our cars which is also a product from the Texaco group. To me, it seems that this fluid is pretty similar to the other N402 compatible fluids I have tried so it might be "the same stuff".

I have to admit that I am pretty confused about this as there are many different statements around and hard to know which one to believe. Basically I would use the "real stuff" or a N402 compatible fluid, nothing else. I would not try the 7045e fluid in my box. The datasheets says this is a mineral based oil while the N402 is a synthetic based oil. The price of this fluid is 1/3 of the other N402 compatibel oils, and this make me wonder.

I guess my problem migth be mechanically related. There was traces of swarf in the box from the worn reverse clutch when I did the reverse piston repair so this migth be caugth in the valveblock. My next plan is to strip down the valve block and clean it out. before putting it back into the box.

Swarf found on the RPM sensor during reverse piston repair:
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN3908.jpg

[SD1too]

Einar,

Thanks very much for the links to the two Texaco data sheets. I see what you mean. 7045E is clearly specified as a replacement for Dexron IIIG (not the same as Dexron III). There is no mention of 402 and no mention of Jatco.


He then read the contents of a Jatco workshop bulletin/ circular which clearly stated 7045E as being newly approved for Jatco boxes.
Since the Texaco document is dated April 2009, perhaps Crofts' contact is right. I'd like to see a copy of that workshop bulletin.

The Havoline Multi-Vehicle ATF data is more reassuring. It clearly states that it may be used as a replacement for Texaco ATF402.

Simon.

[beinet1]

Another reason for NOT using the 7045e fluid in our boxes:
The Mazda 6 application for the Jatco JF605e box recommends a Ford Mervon V fluid. The 7045e datasheet says that it shall not be used in an application where Mercon V fluid is recomended.

[capese21]

This Fluid looks to be suitable. No point in the UK as VYK000040 is available but as it is a Dutch company may be easier to obtain in Norway?

Eurol ATF1100

http://www.eurol.com/en/37-products/558-eurol-atf-1100.html

Ed;)

[capese21]

Another reason for NOT using the 7045e fluid in our boxes:
The Mazda 6 application for the Jatco JF605e box recommends a Ford Mervon V fluid. The 7045e datasheet says that it shall not be used in an application where Mercon V fluid is recomended.

Not what this one says though!!



http://www.service-pro.com/documents/WarrenSpecs/WA-GlobalFullSynMulti-VehicleATF.pdf

[beinet1]

Not what this one says though!!



http://www.service-pro.com/documents/WarrenSpecs/WA-GlobalFullSynMulti-VehicleATF.pdf

Thats rigth, and is typyical for the multi-vehicle fluids. These fluids is higher speced and "backwards compatible" with a lot of lower speced fluids and migth be used in a lot of different applications. The 7045e alone, is not suitable for a lot other applications, but other higher speced oils will be suitable for a 7045e application and a N402 application. This does not mean that the 7045e and N402 is the same oil.
This is how I understand it :)

[SD1too]

This Fluid looks to be suitable.

Eurol ATF1100
I don't think so Ed. There's no mention of our Jatco transmission or N402.
This does not mean that the 7045e and N402 is the same oil.
This is how I understand it :)
I agree Einar.

Simon.

[capese21]

I understand that JF7045 is the fluid to use and replaces N402. Both specs include 7045e.

[trikey]

Just changed my atf for 7045E and it is like a new gearbox, beautiful and smooth...

[SD1too]

I understand that JF7045 is the fluid to use and replaces N402.
I think we have to be careful here. I'm not sure how to interpret: "I understand ..." Perhaps you're refering to the generally accepted view on this forum that Texamatic 7045e replaces N402. Beinet1's earlier posting shows that this is not the case after all. Texaco makes no such statement in its literature.

In my view we should be guided by manufacturers' technical data and nothing else. I've never heard of 'JF7045'. Who makes it? Do you have an official data sheet that you can post?
Both specs include 7045e.
Sorry, you've lost me again. :) We have discovered in this thread that 7045e is not recommended in a transmission for which N402 is specified.

According to the recent evidence, the only fluids which are officially recommended are the MG Rover VYK 000040/GUL1805, Land Rover STC 50531, Texaco Havoline Multi-Vehicle ATF, Fuchs Titan ATF 4400 and Carlube ATF-U.

Simon.

[capese21]

Texaco N402 is an older spec which was replaced by 7045. This is what I understand.

I used to run my car on Duckhams QXR and 20 years ago it was the best oil available but times move on.......

I would still use VYK000040 from Xpart but when it is NLA then 7045 would be my choice.

Sorry, you've lost me again. We have discovered in this thread that 7045e is not recommended in a transmission for which N402 is specified.

I do not think we have? What makes you think that?


In my view we should be guided by manufacturers' technical data and nothing else. I've never heard of 'JF7045'. Who makes it? Do you have an official data sheet that you can post?

JF7045 is made by Texaco!! It is a spec though just as Dexron is etc

Here you are:-


http://www.wd-wpp.com/upload/saved/Mag_1_FS_MV_ATFSellSheet.pdf

[capese21]

This Fluid also shows as compatable with N402.

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Automatic_Transmission_Fluids/Full_Synthetic_Multi_Vehicle_Automatic_Transmissio n_Fluid/#.UIkTLcU736w

Shell 3403, LA2634
Subaru Subaru ATF
Texaco ETL-7045E, ETL-8072B, N402
Toyota Type I/ II/ III, IV, WS
Voith 55.6335.XX(G607), 55.6336.XX(G1363)
Volvo 97340
ZF TE-ML 06D/04D/09/14A/14B/14C/16L/17C

[SD1too]

Texaco N402 is an older spec which was replaced by 7045. This is what I understand.
I agree that this has been said on the forum, but have you seen any proof in the form of official documentation from Texaco? I haven't.
Lots of things are said on forums. ;)

If you look at the second link in post no. 2 it is a Texaco data sheet for 7045e. It does not say anything about being a replacement for, or being compatible with, N402. If it was, wouldn't you think Texaco would say so?

Your links to the American and Australian fluids stating that they can be used in place of N402 is absolutely fine. But it is not true to say that 7045e can also be used just because it appears on the same list. I think this is the mistake which has been made by those who claim that 7045e is "the new N402".

If you have a Texaco document which proves my hypothesis wrong, then please post it! :)

Simon.

[capese21]

The ATF 7045 or 402 is a spec though. Texaco are only one of many manufacturers. I have a radio which says use Duracell batteries but I used Energiser and it still works!! As long as the specification meets or exceeds what is required I cannot see a problem.

Are you saying all the other makes are wrong to say that their ATF meets the spec of 7045 and N402?

I will continue to use VYK000040 as it is available but would not be worried by using 7045 if it were not.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_ImportMV.pdf

Ed:o

[SD1too]

Are you saying all the other makes are wrong to say that their ATF meets the spec of 7045 and N402?
No, but I am saying that it's wrong to infer from that that 7045 and N402 are interchangeable.

Let me put it another way. The lists you have posted include, for example, GM Dexron III as well as 7045e. Are you saying that Dexron III is the same as 7045e which is the same as N402? If so, what about the other fifty-odd fluids in the list; are they all the same?

Edit: I've just thought of the perfect analogy to illustrate what I'm trying to say. Your American and Australian multi-vehicle fluids are 'universal'. In some respects they'll be a compromise; a single fluid which satisfies the general requirements of many others. An adjustable spanner is the same. It is 'universal'. It will undo an imperial UNF bolt and a metric set screw. But this doesn't mean that the imperial UNF bolt is interchangeable with the metric screw. Is that a better explanation?


Simon.

[capese21]

Let me put it another way. The lists you have posted include, for example, GM Dexron III as well as 7045e. Are you saying that Dexron III is the same as 7045e which is the same as N402? If so, what about the other fifty-odd fluids in the list; are they all the same?

No of course there original specification was not all the same. Dexron was invented by GM in 1970! The spec of the later fluids does though exceed them.

Are Castrol wrong to:confused:

We agree VYK000040 is correct (do we?) but who knows what fluid it is? It is just as likely to be 7045 as 402 as 7045 exceeds 402 and is a later product.

What would you use if VYK000040 was NLA? I would use 7045 or one of the others that exceed 402 & 7045.

[SD1too]

No of course there original specification was not all the same.
O.K., agreed. So why are you assuming that 7045 is o.k. as a substitute for N402 then, if 7045 is not the same as N402?

We agree VYK000040 is correct (do we?)
Yes.
... as 7045 exceeds 402 and is a later product.
7045e is a mineral oil. Texaco says so (see link in post no. 2). How do you know that it's spec exceeds 402? Have you seen a data sheet for 402?

What would you use if VYK000040 was NLA?
A fluid whose manufacturer says is suitable to replace N402.
The manufacturer of 7045 (Texaco) does not say that it is suitable to replace N402. However it might work perfectly well; who knows.

Simon.

[beinet1]

We agree VYK000040 is correct (do we?) but who knows what fluid it is? It is just as likely to be 7045 as 402 as 7045 exceeds 402 and is a later product.

I would like to see if there are any documentation that claims this.

[capese21]

The Texaco data sheet page did have N402 listed but now entering on N402, 7045 pops up instead......

I will find it you just see;)

[SD1too]

Here's yet another 'universal' fluid specifically claiming compatibility with N402:

http://www.propowergoldlubricants.co.uk/07_PPG%20ATFDIII-MV.html

Simon.

[capese21]

I cannot find a stockist of N402 or ATF402:confused:

No longer any data sheets for it.............

Who sells it? NLA:eek:

[Singvogel]

How about this stuff - Carlube ATF-U

I believe it to be marketed by Tetrosyl and also known as CarPlan in some places)

It does list N402 on the label, along with quite a few others.

Has anyone used it?

Singvogel.

[SD1too]

I cannot find a stockist of N402 or ATF402
No longer any data sheets for it.............
Yes, odd that isn't it? I wonder whether Texaco had a contract to supply MGR with ATF suitable for the JATCo transmission, and to sell it via X-Part using an MGR part number. If so, this would explain the absence of any data in the public domain since N402 was available only to MGR or via X-Part. Has Texaco ever marketed N402 openly I wonder?

Simon.

[beinet1]

Yes, odd that isn't it? I wonder whether Texaco had a contract to supply MGR with ATF suitable for the JATCo transmission, and to sell it via X-Part using an MGR part number. If so, this would explain the absence of any data in the public domain since N402 was available only to MGR or via X-Part. Has Texaco ever marketed N402 openly I wonder?

Simon.

I wonder the same...

[beinet1]

For information,

The ASTG update manual for the JF506e box list`s these oil specifications for the different applications:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/IMAG0495.jpg

The typical "multi vehicle atf`s" lists all these specifications.

[capese21]

I was wrong about the 7045:bowdown:

I wrote to Chevron and asked them.

The ‘ATF N402’ became ‘ATF 402’ a number of years ago now.
We used to sell the ATF 402, however this has now been phased out.
The options available now are to purchase this from a Land Rover dealership (they should know it as ATF 402 or STC 50531), or we have a new ATF called ‘Havoline Multi-Vehicle ATF’ which can be used as a replacement in ATF 402 applications.
You should not use the Texamatic 7045 E as this grade is a different formulation and will have different frictional characteristics.

I have attached the data sheets for all three for further information (please note the ATF 402 is an archived copy).

Best regards
Andy.

Technical Support Specialist

Chevron Lubricants


He went on to say that N402 is not generally sold but is made for Land Rover. He did not know who makes VYK000040 for xpart.

I hope this puts an end to any further auto transmission fluid threads!!

[SD1too]

Thank you Capese21 for obtaining this official evidence.

There are still plenty of references to 7045e on the forum stating that it is the fluid to use. I think the moderators should place Capese21's quote from Chevron in a prominent place so that everyone is aware that 7045e should not, in fact, be used.

I'm rather chuffed that my guess about the marketing of N402 proved to be correct. ;) :D

Simon.