Vehicles fitted with dual mass flywheels

[stevenkeyte]

A colleague at work has a 'Y' reg petrol 2 litre 75 connoisseur.
He is not very mechanically minded and over the Christmas break had a new clutch fitted, along with new clutch master and slave cylinders, the garage undertaking the work also insisted fitting a new flywheel as they were unwilling to warranty the clutch installation without this being fitted.
He was charged for the supply and fitting of a new dual mass flywheel and when we were talking about it I said I was under the impression that the dual mass flywheels were only fitted to the diesels, not the petrol engined cars - he now thinks he might have been the victim of a 'scam', but I'm not in a position to positively confirm that the dual mass flywheel was fitted to his vehicle. He says the garage showed him the old unit, but obviously, if he was not present when the unit was stripped, they could be showing him a diesel flywheel they had lying around, could someone confirm to which models the dual mass flywheels were fitted?
I don't know how much he was charged for the work undertaken, but I'm assuming it was a lot due to his reluctance to reveal the cost!

Steve

[GreyGhost]

DMF is a very expensive piece of kit, someone will be along with proper info, I run an auto so am not that familiar

[Mike]

Dual mass flywheels are fitted to all 75/ZT's and are a big factor in the comfort of the cars.

Nevertheless your mate is victim of a scam and has been ripped off. There is no manufacturer requirement or need to fit a new DMF at clutch change unless the unit shows signs of failure/damage. the majority of DMF's never get replaced. They cost a small fortune :eek: County Court small claims would be my next step.

hth

Mike

[Keith]

Basically OP as Mike said
Changing a healthy DMF is absolutely not necessary in order to warrant a clutch

The DMF is made by Luk and they provide garages with very clear details on how to measure a given DMF for wear, if the DMF failed on those measurements then yes change it otherwise it is not required.

[podge]

Not only would I like to see the old one and the driven plate that caused the apparent damage?I would also like to see their invoice from the supplier who supplied them with the replacement DMF.

[JohnDotCom]

I would also like to see their invoice from the supplier who supplied them with the replacement DMF.

You mean they might actually have one? http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Paranoid Carlos]

Most decent garages will recomend doing the DMf as a matter of course when the clutch is done (ford dealers often refuse to do the job), the slightest amount of play can cause clutch judder to happen, especially when a new plate/ pressure plate has been fitted due to the new characteristics of the new clutch, Yes it's a hell of a lot of money but if you have to have the box off 6 months after the clutch was done,thats even more expense.
When I had my clutch horrors last year the difference between the play in the old and new DMF was massive.
I chopped the DMF up at work and the springs were short and slack in the locations with a audible clonk when the inner was moved.

[Paranoid Carlos]

Basically OP as Mike said
Changing a healthy DMF is absolutely not necessary in order to warrant a clutch

The DMF is made by Luk and they provide garages with very clear details on how to measure a given DMF for wear, if the DMF failed on those measurements then yes change it otherwise it is not required.

Haven't got the exact figures but I was made aware by colleages of lates that LUK quote any visible movement and it should be changed, open to interpretation I can see but better than a horrible juddering clutch.

[Mike]

R40 is seven years old, on its second clutch, with its original DMF and the clutch change is as smooth as a.............. When the clutch was replaced the garage inspected the DMF and passed it - which is the way it should be done.

It's a different thing when, as in this case, a garage says as a condition of the work that the DMF has to come out. imo that is unprofessional and a rip off of the worst order ;)

[pondweed]

fiat have had lots of problems with the multipla, with dmfs failing shortly after clutches replaced. Its now virtually a £350 service item, should the clutch be changed.
One good reason to look for the lower spec common rail diesels on other cars (like the PSA group HDI 90) which have solid units.

[sworks]

most manufacturers use dmf's now. There is a measured amount of movement that is allowed as to if it is servicable or not. Generally the ones fitted to Rovers are very good. Hyundai had problems with the Santa Fe and reverted back to single mass and Ford have big problems. If you buy a starter motor for a ford there is a disclaimer that they will not honour the warranty if there are any signs of dmf dust particles

[Jules]

The other worrying factor in the equation Steven is whether the car even had the flywheel changed at all even though you were charged for it.:shrug:

£800 seems to be the average bill for changing all the clutch items.
My Brother in Law had his all changed 4 weeks ago (only due to a very heavy pedal which did his knee in) and amazingly the RAC warranty coughed up £500 towards the bill!

[stevenkeyte]

Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies and information, I'll pass all this onto my colleague and he can then decide how to proceed with the garage in question,

Steve

[Teflon]

Perhaps I'm being a little paranoid, but can't help feeling that all the comments re "rip off"; "scam" etc are perhaps a little premature. Afterall, the O/P simply stated:

....... also insisted fitting a new flywheel as they were unwilling to warranty the clutch installation without this being fitted.

In fairness to the garage, they may have said this as a result of finding excessive wear on the DMF. If they stated it as a general policy before examining any parts, then that is a different matter, but as things stand, there is little evidence to judge at present.

Just a thought.

Cliff

[Mike]

Cliff,

Fair comment :) though I would be surprised.

If the garage had said they were unwilling to warrant the clutch because the DMF was damaged/needed replacing then fine but they didn't, according to the OP. If the DMF was not fit for purpose then surely the garage would simply say so and not need to resort to the other terms they did use.

Cheers

Mike

[kaiser]

Wife also drives an S-type Jag. Clutch went, was replaced, and we also did the slave cylinder, which on these vehicles are gearbox out items (even Ford make some stupid decisions)
They suggested we also change the DMF because it had high spots, which would make it shudder. I had a look and decided that there would be no shudder, so we kept the DMF. The car went fine, there was no trace of shudder, but the clutch only lasted about 2000km. Fried and big chunk of friction material missing. The friction material looks very flimsy and is not a solid, but rather strands of something. LUK would not hear anything, but could not get away with blaming the wife, she has done 200000km in the Jag with two clutches before. The dealer was prepared to re-do the work with no labour charge, provided we put in a new DMF. We did, but I refused to put another LUK clutch plate back in and instead got it re-lined by a local company with more concervative solid lining.
Everything has worked out fine, so I can't say if the DMF caused the clutch failure. I personally think the particular clutch supplied by LUK was not up to the job, but that is only a feeling.
Traffic down here is getting ridiculous, and there is more and more standing in queues, which is not good for a clutch in a heavy and powerful car..
That's where her new 1.8T is a much better option with its auto box.:D

[Rincewind]

I believe that when we went to clutches that did not contain lead (hence all the judder problems people experience espically in cold damp weather) when they were replaced most DMF's were replaced underwarranty as they suffered surface damage.

However, as the MGR warranty died along with MGR I'm not sure what they crack is anymore reagrding clutches and DMF (and yes, all 75/ZT's have them fitted we did try some 1.8T engines with single mass and decided that after a lot of development work to ditch them and stay with the DMF as the transmission quality was better and believe it or not, it hides some of the mechanical noise from the Getrag box!)

[Jules]

Automatics are the future with the growing traffic IMO
Try one you'll love it;)

[CDTi]

I believe that when we went to clutches that did not contain lead (hence all the judder problems people experience espically in cold damp weather) when they were replaced most DMF's were replaced underwarranty as they suffered surface damage.My 2006 75 had the clutch and DMF replaced under a garage warranty recently due to judder. Cost about €2k - or so I was told. The car only had about 10k miles on it.

[Phil]

When I bought my 75 1.8turbo, it had awful clutch judder, it really did shake and make the car go bang. I tried to get it replaced under warranty but the garage reckonned they could never fault it. They said it had a new clutch and flywheel early in its life and there was no way it would need another. Anyway, 23,000 miles later I have no clutch judder. I am not suggesting other members do this, but I was on holiday in North Wales and had to do a hill start on a caravan park due to some person parked muppetly. I pushed as much as I dared but the car wasn't moving so I reversed back and found another way out. Since then I have no judder. Cheap fix.:)

[Filbrook]

Oops. I changed a clutch over the xmas holiday and the DMF had about plus and minus 5 mins ( on a clock face ) free play. I could not see any advice on the rover/MG CD as to when replace the DMF. The clutch take up is smooth and gear changes quite normal.

[Phil]

Oops. I changed a clutch over the xmas holiday and the DMF had about plus and minus 5 mins ( on a clock face ) free play. I could not see any advice on the rover/MG CD as to when replace the DMF. The clutch take up is smooth and gear changes quite normal.

I wouldn't give it a second thought then unless the flywheel is scored or judders.

[Keith]

Oops. I changed a clutch over the xmas holiday and the DMF had about plus and minus 5 mins ( on a clock face ) free play. I could not see any advice on the rover/MG CD as to when replace the DMF. The clutch take up is smooth and gear changes quite normal.

That is absolutely what should happen some free movement then you feel the springs taking up the strain

some light reading
http://www.schaeffler.com/remotemedien/media/_shared_media/library/downloads/LuK_Schadensdiagnose_PKW_en.pdf

http://www.luk.com/content.luk.de/en/products/dampers/zms_sv/zms_lv/zms_lv.jsp

And I still can't find the link I once found showing how to measure them for excess movement :(

[crofts]

A Dual Mass Flywheel from rsj-motor-factors is £275. Not cheap obviously but not as bad as some members seem to have been charged.
By the way, I have mentioned this Co. before as being the UK distributor for Borg & Beck, one of the best known names for clutches. I note that they give a 2 year warranty on these clutches. They also stock the slave cyl.
Quinton Hazel give a lifetime guarantee on clutch replacement when carried out by garages signed up to their scheme.
Not required by me as I have an auto but note these things as so many members report clutch problems.

[Jules]

Quinton Hazel is a company I only have praise for too!