suspect HGF - anyone know cost to repair/recommend kseal

[p0kerstud]

Hi fellow owners,

I'm driving a MG ZT 2.5 160+

Now I know most of you are already typing "HGF on a 2.5 engine.... unlikely" but with my total lack of mechanical knowledge, years of paying the garage to repair every problem known to man & the wealth of knowledge on the net I'm reluctantly accepting that that's what it looks like

There are no signs of overheating, the radiator tank looks clean enough, the engine appears to be free of mayo & the oil seems clear enough (although very watery). But I am getting PLENTY of white smoke out the exhaust which it's getting worse by the day & I noticed for the last few months the heaters, although still working when in motion, were getting very frugal with the heat.

If anyone can offer suggestions of what else could be to blame I would love to hear them (bare in mind I can just about change a tyre)

failing that I was looking at that gasket seal liquid & wondering is this stuff safe or am I asking for trouble further on down the line?

and lastly anyone know approx repair cost or recommend a garage near Liverpool.


Any help appreciated :confused:

[Weso]

A quick bump for your post!
I had HGF on my KV6, costly obviously,
Same position as yourself not mechanically minded so had to put faith in several local garages, all useless...
In the end used a mobile specialist, alls well now.
There is at least one mobile mechanic on this forum, and several elsewhere.
The experts will be along on a minute i am sure,
i did find notwithstanding the expertise available here if you cannot put there advice into practice then you have got to find a good garage or mobile service.
See how this thread develops and feel free to pm me once you have digested it all for advice re mobile services

regards

Mark:}

[Simon.h]

Don't use kseal/rad weld etc!
It sounds like your inlet inlet manifold gaskets are leaking coolant into the pistons.

[Simon.h]

How much coolant are you using?
If you can't do any work yourself then take it to someone who knows this engine. The kv6 is a very strong engine and does not have problems with hgf, it can take overheating and still the hg should be ok.

I bought a zt 190 with hgf just a few weeks ago, the owner said it went for a mot and overheated before the mot started and the garage said the head gaskets have gone. It turned out to be a faulty coolant sensor so the ecu did not know the engine was getting hot after idling for over a hour so no cooling fan switched on so it overheated!

[p0kerstud]

Cheers guys,

I topped the radiator up bout half a pint in a month so not a lot but it seems to have got worse over the last week so i'll check again tomorrow.

I read "a blown head gasket will usually show bubbles in the radiator as compression gasses blow back into the coolant from the cylinder & You should see them with the engine running at temperature" but didn't think you could take the radiator cap off while hot/running as it pumps everywhere?? is this safe to do?

& how much did you pay for yours Weso? to give me a ballpark figure

[Weso]

Cheers guys,

I topped the radiator up bout half a pint in a month so not a lot but it seems to have got worse over the last week so i'll check again tomorrow.

I read "a blown head gasket will usually show bubbles in the radiator as compression gasses blow back into the coolant from the cylinder & You should see them with the engine running at temperature" but didn't think you could take the radiator cap off while hot/running as it pumps everywhere?? is this safe to do?

& how much did you pay for yours Weso? to give me a ballpark figure

MIne was circa £800 with belts, water pump, coolent and oil, plus travel costs. Given several garages will charge you that for the belts and pump alone i thought not bad
But REMEMBER it might not be HGF, my price is your worst possible scenario, you could pay appreciably more at a typical local garage, you need a specialist, the better specialists might not be as expensive as you think, some specialists are overrated though, the forum should be able to steer you a path.
Be prepared to pay a few quid for a expert diagnosis and then take things from there.
Hope this helps

Mark:}

[guru]

If you're not losing coolant and there is no contamination of the oil or header tank then it really doesn't sound like a head gasket. The loss of heat in the cabin could just be a dodgy heater matrix. I would definitely seek a second opinion from someone that knows the engines.

[p0kerstud]

wow £800!

Looks like ill be in the market for a new ZT then.... just not worth getting it fixed considering the cost to pick up another.

I found this guy through google called "MG Rover Solutions" & he claims to travel & be able to do it for approx £400 with pump & belts. I imagine this will be for a 1.8 & they will add to it but this is a bit more manageable

I keep telling myself that guru but would that explain the white smoke at the back end?

[chipsceola]

[QUOTE=p0kerstud;1220601]wow £800!

Looks like ill be in the market for a new ZT then.... just not worth getting it fixed considering the cost to pick up another./QUOTE]


Before you give up do read the posts where HGF is stated as unlikely, why get rid of a good car for want of expert diagnosis and perhaps just small inexpensive part ?

[Weso]

wow £800!

Looks like ill be in the market for a new ZT then.... just not worth getting it fixed considering the cost to pick up another.

I found this guy through google called "MG Rover Solutions" & he claims to travel & be able to do it for approx £400 with pump & belts. I imagine this will be for a 1.8 & they will add to it but this is a bit more manageable

I keep telling myself that guru but would that explain the white smoke at the back end?

£400 is about a keen mobile cost for the 4 cylinder not the KV6, remember the KV6 has 2 heads so 2 heads to be removed, skimmed and refitted.
Plus the belts on a KV6 are appreciably bigger job than on the 4 cylinder.

Believe me that is bargain basement for the job (£800) there's a world of difference between doing HGF on a KV6 compared to a K series.
PS Most of the K series mobile specialists won't touch a KV6. It takes a brave man to do this work on your driveway, and it's a 2 day job.

But you are not sure it is HGF YET!!:}

Mark:}

[guru]

wow £800!

Looks like ill be in the market for a new ZT then.... just not worth getting it fixed considering the cost to pick up another.

I found this guy through google called "MG Rover Solutions" & he claims to travel & be able to do it for approx £400 with pump & belts. I imagine this will be for a 1.8 & they will add to it but this is a bit more manageable

I keep telling myself that guru but would that explain the white smoke at the back end?

No idea, but this also happened to me years ago with our mk1 ZS 180 (also a KV6). Drove down to the west country and a few days after we got there noticed one day when parking white smoke billowing out of the back, not enough to stop traffic but a fair amount. Anyway drove it back checking the levels all the time and just as quickly as it started it stopped again :shrug:
Had the car for a couple of years and 30,000 miles after that without a repeat of the problem, in fact it turned out to be one of the most reliable car's I've owned!

[Delirious]

well i have plenty of white steam from the back pretty standard really especially at start up, cold heater well that will be kseal that someones already put in to more likley try and slow down the thermostat leaking, or as suggested already possibly the manifold gaskets could be putting a little water into the cylinders, id be checking for the thermostat leaking and id flush out the matrix and make sure the systems bled properly

[chrissyboy]

you have not say nothing that would be inloine for hgf . you are properly losing coolant from a leaky stat housing in the v of the engine .if you take the cap of any car and run engine you would see the coolant bubble(no indication of hgf ) you have one of 2 things wrong either leaky stat or the inlet manifold gasket is leaking .

[p0kerstud]

Thanks guys, you're filling me with hope because I love this car & wouldn't want to see it go.

Seems general consensus is it's unlikely to be HGF. I'm off work next week so will put her in the garage for further investigation putting your ideas forward. suppose this is the only way to know for sure.

I believe they can perform a pressure test. anyone know what that's likely to cost?

I swear one day I am going to book myself in for that home mechanics course I have always wanted.

[MrDoodles]

I know that it's not that accurate, but where is the temp gauge going to and how long does it take to get there?

[Dave Goody]

you have not say nothing that would be inloine for hgf . you are properly losing coolant from a leaky stat housing in the v of the engine .if you take the cap of any car and run engine you would see the coolant bubble(no indication of hgf ) you have one of 2 things wrong either leaky stat or the inlet manifold gasket is leaking .

I think I'll second that:}

[Weso]

[QUOTE=p0kerstud;1220729]Thanks guys, you're filling me with hope because I love this car & wouldn't want to see it go.

Seems general consensus is it's unlikely to be HGF. I'm off work next week so will put her in the garage for further investigation putting your ideas forward. suppose this is the only way to know for sure.

I believe they can perform a pressure test. anyone know what that's likely to cost?

Pressure Test, Puff Test and Dye Test are all useful in diagnosing HGF or hopefully something lesser. These 3 plus a detailed visual check on hoses and thermestat should not amount to more than a hours labour at a typical garage. The experts can advise on the variable validity of these tests.

Mark:}

[Simon.h]

Thanks guys, you're filling me with hope because I love this car & wouldn't want to see it go.

Seems general consensus is it's unlikely to be HGF. I'm off work next week so will put her in the garage for further investigation putting your ideas forward. suppose this is the only way to know for sure.

I believe they can perform a pressure test. anyone know what that's likely to cost?

I swear one day I am going to book myself in for that home mechanics course I have always wanted.

I just hope the garage you are going to book it into knows the KV6 engine!

[chrissyboy]

[QUOTE=p0kerstud;1220729]Thanks guys, you're filling me with hope because I love this car & wouldn't want to see it go.

Seems general consensus is it's unlikely to be HGF. I'm off work next week so will put her in the garage for further investigation putting your ideas forward. suppose this is the only way to know for sure.

I believe they can perform a pressure test. anyone know what that's likely to cost?

Pressure Test, Puff Test and Dye Test are all useful in diagnosing HGF or hopefully something lesser. These 3 plus a detailed visual check on hoses and thermestat should not amount to more than a hours labour at a typical garage. The experts can advise on the variable validity of these tests.

Mark:}

i would have it smoke tested for a 100% accurate result ,trouble with the dye test is that the dye has to be fresh or a wrong reading will occur,a smoke test will show you where you have a coolant leak as the smoke will come out there ,and for hgf it is proberly the best test to do ...
but as i said before you have no syptoms of hgf not one ... your having to top up the coolant is due to a leak somewhere ....

[Phil]

A leaking stat or manifold gaskets wouldn't give you watery oil.
If water is going in the oil it will either be a failed oil cooler, an unsealed liner, cracked casting or HGF.

However, if you are only seeing oil under the cap, it could be a blocked/broken breather or condensation from short journeys.

If you are seeing it on the dipstick, then see my first paragraph.
What condition is the coolant in? Is it a translucent pink/orange or does it have bits floating in it?

I would be inclined to get the system checked out and pressure tested by someone you trust before making a decision like getting rid of the car. What is the mileage? If the head gasket or liners do need work, what would you do with the car? Would you scrap it? Repair it?? Reason I ask this is, if the alternative is scrap it and I am not saying this is what I would recommend and I really hope Kaiser sees this but he has had good results with something called Steel Seal, have a search. Its not the proper way to do it or even recommended but if the alternative is scrap, then why not? It wouldn't fix a gasket, I wouldn't have thought but may very well seal a liner. You just need to make sure the system is in otherwise good condition and has no other leaks or air locks before using. I will likely get shot down in flames for posting this but like I have said, it is not recommended but better than scrapping the car, surely? :shrug:

[MattyC]

Plenty of peeps on .org are running K-seal, without problems. Some swear by it, some hate it. It's pretty subjective - a lot of the people who hate it, are funnily enough, traders (mechanics losing out on work lol). I know of at least one person who has covered 10k+ on the stuff.

It's not ideal, but if the car is uneconomically viable to repair properly, I'd give it a punt before scrapping it.

[SD1too]

There are no signs of overheating, the radiator tank looks clean enough, the engine appears to be free of mayo & the oil seems clear enough (although very watery). But I am getting PLENTY of white smoke out the exhaust ...
Hello Brian,

O.K., I have read about your symptoms and the replies given. You say that the engine oil shows no sign of 'mayonnaise' and the engine isn't overheating. I think that's a pretty clear indication that your problem is not head gaskets. All this talk about scrapping the car is ridiculous.

Now, what exactly do you mean by "watery" engine oil? Clearly you don't mean that there is water mixed with it, because you've said that you don't have 'mayo'! So, do you mean that it's thin? If so, that's probably an indication that you desperately need an oil change.

Regarding the white smoke from the exhaust, are you sure that this isn't water vapour normally found in the exhaust condensing in the very cold ambient air? Are you doing short journeys where the car barely has time to warm up? If you're getting white smoke continuously during a journey of, say 30 miles, then it sounds as if you might be justified in suspecting an inlet manifold gasket. These are easily renewed, and the manifold bolts should be tightened to the recommended torque to avoid future trouble.

Beware of garages who see a Rover badge and immediately diagnose HGF. I would recommend that, if necessary, you take your car to Jules at Colwyn Bay. He is a club trader who specialises in the 75/ZT, particularly cooling systems. Repair your car properly. Adding magic potions like K Seal are a bodge and will come back to haunt you.

Simon

[MattyC]

Beware of garages who see a Rover badge and immediately diagnose HGF.
Amen that man :bowdown:

Half of them don't even know what a KV6/L-series/T-series/M47/Honda unit is, they only know K-series when they see the Viking!

[p0kerstud]

Sorry for delay but only just back from work.

I have just checked radiator & it doesnt seem to have lost any since saturday.?. The coolant looks clear & i can see the bottom of the resevoir although under closer inspection there appears to be very fine shiney bronze coloured flecks around the cap & coating the expansion bottle (non in the coolant itself though).

I had another look at the oil cap - still clean. Trying to better describe the oil it looks clean with no frothing. There is plenty in there & it doesnt appear to be mixed with anything. It just appears more runny than normal dripping everywhere but i may just be seeing symptoms where there are none.

Temperature wise i expect steam from exhaust on start up or when engine is under pressure but it seems to only start after a few minutes and then is constant even after a good hour run/when idling at the lights. It truly isnt my imagination as its noticable that im the only one in traffic with my own cloud.

Loving the feedback though. appreciate all the help!

[Phil]

Ah right, that helps. The gold flecks are probably K seal. That may account for poor heater. Regards to my previous response, I read watery oil as mayonnaise. That clearly isn't the case. It sounds like your system needs flushing as that may fix your heater. :}

[p0kerstud]

Cheers phil.

Ill read up on how to & get that done on saturday.

Will this help with the smoke issue?

[Phil]

Are you absolutely sure this isn't just condensation due to cold weather? Put it this way, if you aren't losing coolant, then it can't be leaking into the combustion chamber, therefore cannot be anything other than vapour due to hot engine, cold atmosphere.

[p0kerstud]

Anything possible because I have never owned a ZT before & maybe they just plume out lots of white smoke...but I have owned around 9 cars of different shapes & sizes inc a 1.8 R75 but this one is giving off more smoke than all of them combined.

[Phil]

When was it last serviced? Does it consume oil or water? Does it run well?

[Phil]

It would be worth doing an OBD coolant check if you are worried about your heater output too.. If the car isn't getting up to temperature it will affect heat output.

[NigelOBB]

At worst it could be start of hgf between the water jacket burning of on the head, but sounds like a leak or inlet manifold my last car I had a similar prob and couldn't find the leak at first new head was ok finally found it be chance turn out that the top rad hose had turned porous. Products like K Seal are fine ran with it for 3 years in my pajero but it only delayed the inevitable which I am sure ended with my head cracking. There is another product which works its used by the mod I have used that as well when the head was removed all the waterways were reduced or blocked with the stuff. Luckily the head was trashed but it took me hours to clean the block up..

[SD1too]

The coolant looks clear & i can see the bottom of the resevoir ..
Brian,

Just to add to Phil's replies, your coolant of course should be pink if it has OAT antifreeze, and this solution tends to look a horrible muddy colour when its in the expansion tank. Alternatively it might look blue or green if someone has used a different type of antifreeze. I think that by saying "clear" you mean clear of mayonnaise! :D But if you mean that you can see through it to the bottom of the expansion tank then that sounds as if you have plain water. :eek:

Regarding the thin engine oil, I would change it. It's cheap to do and can only be beneficial.

Simon

[p0kerstud]

Yeah. I checked last night in the dark with a high powered torch so very hard to tell the colour. It just appeared see through with no floaties. I will have a look later in the sunlight though.

I have lost my obd scanner (bought one to avoid the daylight robbery at the garag to identify problems)so on your advice ive ordered a new one on ebay. should have it by the weekend so will post results

[Phil]

The car can tell you the temperature of the coolant using the one. (on board diagnostics) using the ipk.

[p0kerstud]

Sorry lost me there. ipk?

This car doesnt seem to have the message centre which i have had previously that tells you when somethings gone wrong so thought i would have to use a scanner to find it.

I planned to buy one anyway so it just gave me the necessary push

[Phil]

No, you don't need the LCD scren. It comes up on the mileage display!

[Phil]

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=87263

[p0kerstud]

Thanks phil.

I knew pushing that would get you to instrument panel test but didnt know i could do all that with it.

Ill have a little play.

[Canonite]

After reading all this i'd be inclined to agree that an oil change and a coolant flush is needed asap. When was it last done?
If you need a garage i'd also be pointing you in the direction of Jules, many members of the club travel across the country for him to work on their car, as they know he knows these cars and engines, he's a top bloke and he very well priced.

It sounds like your local garages have been un-necessarily filling you with worries over nothing. As mentioned, while it's not impossible HGF on these V6s is very rare and it will give you more than enough notice if things aren't right.
You're right to question it though and ask the ones who know these cars, the owners, or you may have ended up listening to a numpty mechanic and scrapped your car for nothing.

[p0kerstud]

Thanks alan.

Got to admit the resources on this site of parts advice and support are literally 2nd to none. And with so many people so quick to help its given me the push to get off my bum.

Ashamed to say i have never done an oil or coolant change in my 16yrs of owning a car but come saturday i will be checking this sites how to & giving it a go.

Hopeful this will cure my smoke problem but if not atleast ive learnt something useful & itll be one last thing i rely on the garage for

[Phil]

Can you post a video of this smoke? You say it doesn't use coolant, what about oil? If it consumes neither of these and your brake fluid level isn't dropping I would bet it is condensation. My Rover does it too. In fact, all cars do but I do always think mine is doing it more than others. :getmecoat:

[p0kerstud]

Little update.

I got all the stuff together for an oil change but read its pretty impossible without ramps or axle stands so i entusted it to a local garage.

Job done but after leaving it a few days to run in its still producing smoke if not more than ever.

Took her to a different garage for MOT yesterday (£25 and sailed through:) but the chap stated he heard a rattle from the engine. I described the smoke/no loss of fluids or overheating and he stated its flapping pistons damaged the manifold.

Kind of relieved but he's ringing me back today with a quote.

[Ford Prefect]

What I hope he said was it's rattling valves in the manifold!..

[yamahajrb]

Might be worth a look at my last thread ('Cant get water to circulate through matrix') if you drain the cooling system down, John