synergy settings help

[rapid6]

hi guys,

fitted synergy today, but wondered if someone could advise me on settings...im on setting 9 at mo and ****** hell its impressive, however im looking to use synergy to up my mpg as my car wasnt great in this dept. i have maf switched to on also, can someone give me some direction as i really dont know what it should be at.....thanks:D

[1gp]

HI, has your car got a bosch maf? try settings from one upwards .. see what is best for your car... loads of threads on this subject use the search box for info , just type in " synergy settings.." it all depends how good your maf is really , on what mpg you will obtain . do you need the maf setting on ?:shrug: alot find 5 quite good.. but every engine is different...

[rapid6]

How do I know if I need maf on or not..?

[marinabrian]

Bosch MAF sensors rarely (if ever) fail with lower than expected airflow figures.
The recognised within spec figures of a Bosch MAF are 480mg per stroke at idle with a fully operational EGR, and between 720mg and 740mg per stroke at 3000 RPM.
So if your Bosch MAF is out of spec, figures of 530mg per stroke or above at idle, will not be assisted by amplification of the signal received by the ECM by the use of MAF compensation, but will be exacerbated instead.
Sure you will have a feel good factor when your over fuelling car over fuels a little bit more, but my advice would be to replace the MAF with a genuine Bosch unit if a diagnostic session dictates it's operation to be defective.
Also worthy of note here in the vein of MAF reliability, some people will advise that removal of the "bellows" section of the air intake pipe on the diesel will improve performance.
Sadly this will result in two main things.
1 the charge of air entering the engine will be warmer and less dense.
2 it will leave the MAF at the mercy of water spray contamination, due to atomised water passing through the air cleaner, thus contaminating the platinum "hot wire" sensor reducing it's effectiveness in short order.
Brian :D

[rapid6]

Emmmmmm:confused:

[marinabrian]

Emmmmmm:confused:
Translation.....
Unless you have a Pierburg MAF, leave the MAFAM section turned off ;)
Brian :D

[grivas]

Bosch MAF sensors rarely (if ever) fail with lower than expected airflow figures.
The recognised within spec figures of a Bosch MAF are 480mg per stroke at idle with a fully operational EGR, and between 720mg and 740mg per stroke at 3000 RPM.
So if your Bosch MAF is out of spec, figures of 530mg per stroke or above at idle, will not be assisted by amplification of the signal received by the ECM by the use of MAF compensation, but will be exacerbated instead.
Sure you will have a feel good factor when your over fuelling car over fuels a little bit more, but my advice would be to replace the MAF with a genuine Bosch unit if a diagnostic session dictates it's operation to be defective.
Also worthy of note here in the vein of MAF reliability, some people will advise that removal of the "bellows" section of the air intake pipe on the diesel will improve performance.
Sadly this will result in two main things.
1 the charge of air entering the engine will be warmer and less dense.
2 it will leave the MAF at the mercy of water spray contamination, due to atomised water passing through the air cleaner, thus contaminating the platinum "hot wire" sensor reducing it's effectiveness in short order.
Brian :D

Regret I do not agree that removing bellows from air duct leads to effect 1 and or 2 as above, but will certainly lead to a better and less restricted air flow, but then what do I know I have been running like this for 8 years no problems whatsoever, so do not worry about removing the bellows, if anything it will stop water spray from entering and destroying the MAF, if your performance below 1800-2000rpm is poor then unplug MAF, if performance improves the MAG is dead, buy a Pierburg one from Roveron, then relax and enjoy your new car.

[rasa]

hi guys,

fitted synergy today, but wondered if someone could advise me on settings...im on setting 9 at mo and ****** hell its impressive, however im looking to use synergy to up my mpg as my car wasnt great in this dept. i have maf switched to on also, can someone give me some direction as i really dont know what it should be at.....thanks:Dhi its me who you bought it from , pleased to see you enjoyed it, i only sold it as i have the 160 map. the synergy still give it more of an oomph with the map, but was sick of all the smoke when booting it, without the map and synergy fitted was manageable but still a little smoke, as someone has pointed out, try every setting starting from 1 for say a week, then you will find a happy medium,you will enjoy it, then try i few settings with the compensation turned on,then try it with the synergy turned off,then after a few days put it on the most powerful setting that matches your car, and you will see the difference,hope you got it fitted ok as its a while since you bought it.

[marinabrian]

Regret I do not agree that removing bellows from air duct leads to effect 1 and or 2 as above, but will certainly lead to a better and less restricted air flow, but then what do I know I have been running like this for 8 years no problems whatsoever, so do not worry about removing the bellows, if anything it will stop water spray from entering and destroying the MAF, if your performance below 1800-2000rpm is poor then unplug MAF, if performance improves the MAG is dead, buy a Pierburg one from Roveron, then relax and enjoy your new car.


Having seen the long term affects of MAF degeneration, this is accelerated considerably by this particular "performance mod" which is nothing more than a placebo, and actually reduces performance slightly.
Air flow figures for a compensated Pierburg MAF are as follows

Idle 510mg per stroke
3000 RPM 610mg per stroke

This is opposed to a Bosch MAF

Idle 480mg per stroke
3000 RPM 720mg per stroke.

So what do these figures mean, with the Pierburg fitted, your car will be overfuelling at low speeds and underfuelling at higher speeds.

The Pierburg MAF may have been a reasonable compromise when Bosch MAF units cost over £250, but now with the price of the real unit being just over £100, there is no need ;)

Brian :D

[rapid6]

right today ive got it set at no7 with synergy and maf on.....
fitted in 10 minutes which was straight forward enough.....just a bit confusing as i dont fully understand the tech stuff about mafs etc.
yesterday it was 9 and ****** hell, couldnt believe it was the same car

[marinabrian]

right today ive got it set at no7 with synergy and maf on.....
fitted in 10 minutes which was straight forward enough.....just a bit confusing as i dont fully understand the tech stuff about mafs etc.
yesterday it was 9 and ****** hell, couldnt believe it was the same car

Very easy, if you have a Bosch MAF, leave the MAFAM section turned off ;)
Brian :D

[James.uk]

My synergy has it's knob missing (oerr) but has an arrow on the end of it's spindle, does the arrow on the knob point in the same direction as the arrow on the spindle undeneath when fitted?????

Anyone know please??? :o
...

[Singvogel]

My synergy has it's knob missing (oerr) but has an arrow on the end of it's spindle, does the arrow on the knob point in the same direction as the arrow on the spindle undeneath when fitted?????

Anyone know please??? :o
...


AFAIK it's 180 degrees opposite - see Ron's site for the fitting instructions - he has a note about if the knob has fell off the spindle.

And for the folks who are bothered by smoke on acceleration - the cure is .................................................. ................

Stop using supermarket diesel - especially Morrisons.

[James.uk]

I only use Shell, so my smoke is of a better quality innit... :D

Now to go find the info from Rover Ron innit..... :shrug:
...

[James.uk]

Been to Rons site.. Non of the synergy's have any knobs on?? just spindles with arrows on like mine?????
...

[rasa]

Been to Rons site.. Non of the synergy's have any knobs on?? just spindles with arrows on like mine?????
...little grey spindle is the knob to adjust . ie 9 on a clock is 1 and 2 o clock is setting 5 for the bosch maf the rest is for pieburg

[James.uk]

??? I am running with the MAF side turned off (Bosch MAF fitted), and the tuner side on with the spindle arrow pointing to where 6 should be.. :}

So what setting is my car actually on then?? Anyone know??? :shrug: :o:o:o
...

[Singvogel]

Been to Rons site.. Non of the synergy's have any knobs on?? just spindles with arrows on like mine?????
...


Be careful - that little spindle that you are referring to can easily come off and reveal a further smaller spindle lurking underneath with another arrow on it.

Hence the confusion.

[rasa]

??? I am running with the MAF side turned off (Bosch MAF fitted), and the tuner side on with the spindle arrow pointing to where 6 should be.. :}

So what setting is my car actually on then?? Anyone know??? :shrug: :o:o:o
...i think setting 1 blue so is pierburg

[maxum1947]

??? I am running with the MAF side turned off (Bosch MAF fitted), and the tuner side on with the spindle arrow pointing to where 6 should be.. :}

So what setting is my car actually on then?? Anyone know??? :shrug: :o:o:o
...

With Borsch MAF fitted and the MAF side turned off you should only use settings 1,2 3 (HIGH POWER) or 10 (VHIGH POWER).

I've still got my Borsch MAF fitted and like you the Synergy 2 has just been fitted. Trial results so far indicate that my car is much much better using position 3 with MAF Side turned ON.

[maxum1947]

??? I am running with the MAF side turned off (Bosch MAF fitted), and the tuner side on with the spindle arrow pointing to where 6 should be.. :}

So what setting is my car actually on then?? Anyone know??? :shrug: :o:o:o
...

Switch MAF Throttle Power
Position Boost Response

1 LOW LOW HIGH
2 LOW MED HIGH
3 LOW HIGH HIGH
4 MED LOW HIGH
5 MED MED HIGH
6 MED HIGH HIGH
7 HIGH LOW HIGH
8 HIGH MED HIGH
9 HIGH HIGH HIGH
10 LOW HIGH VHIGH

POSN 1, 2 & 3 Borsch Maf has some deterioration OR MAFAM SWITCHED OFF

POSN 4, 5 & 6 Borsch Maf has moderate deterioration OR PIERBURGH MAF FITTED

POSN 7, 8 & 9 Borsch Maf is very poor OR PIERBURGH MAF FITTED

IF YOUR BORSCH MAF IS OK, then switch the mafam off and use settings 1,2,3 or 10

[marinabrian]

Switch MAF Throttle Power
Position Boost Response

1 LOW LOW HIGH
2 LOW MED HIGH
3 LOW HIGH HIGH
4 MED LOW HIGH
5 MED MED HIGH
6 MED HIGH HIGH
7 HIGH LOW HIGH
8 HIGH MED HIGH
9 HIGH HIGH HIGH
10 LOW HIGH VHIGH

POSN 1, 2 & 3 Borsch Maf has some deterioration OR MAFAM SWITCHED OFF

POSN 4, 5 & 6 Borsch Maf has moderate deterioration OR PIERBURGH MAF FITTED

POSN 7, 8 & 9 Borsch Maf is very poor OR PIERBURGH MAF FITTED

IF YOUR BORSCH MAF IS OK, then switch the mafam off and use settings 1,2,3 or 10

If your Bosch MAF is out of spec, the MAFAM section will amplify the error.
So if you don't want your ECM thinking that an at idle airflow figure approximately that it would expect at around 1500RPM, then don't switch on the MAFAM section.
What a genuine Bosch MAF will cost you, will soon be recouped in extra fuel savings ;)
Brian :D

[Roverron]

If your Bosch MAF is out of spec, the MAFAM section will amplify the error.
So if you don't want your ECM thinking that an at idle airflow figure approximately that it would expect at around 1500RPM, then don't switch on the MAFAM section.
What a genuine Bosch MAF will cost you, will soon be recouped in extra fuel savings ;)
Brian :D

Wrong again.

If the maf signal is weak it will not amplify a weak signal and make it weaker. It will do what an amplifier does - amplify it - ie make it bigger which is exactly what you want.

Ron

[marinabrian]

Wrong again.

If the maf signal is weak it will not amplify a weak signal and make it weaker. It will do what an amplifier does - amplify it - ie make it bigger which is exactly what you want.

Ron

Ron I'm afraid I will have to contradict you on this occasion.
The Bosch MAF will rarely if EVER fail with a lower than expected airflow figure, they fail 99% of the time by the signal given to the ECM being higher than an in spec MAF.
The result of amplifying a signal which is higher than normal to begin with, is to compound the error.
People will see an "improvement" as the ECM sees a airflow figure at idle which is more akin to that seen from a normal in spec MAF at 1500 RPM, i.e over fuelling considerably ;)
Brian :D

[Westonboy]

I have a brand new Pierburg maf. At present my synergy is set on 5 with maf switched of. The car performs realy well, should I have the maf switched on as well, and will this enhance the performance.

[marinabrian]

I have a brand new Pierburg maf. At present my synergy is set on 5 with maf switched of. The car performs realy well, should I have the maf switched on as well, and will this enhance the performance.

Yes, you will need the MAFAM section turned on in order that the Pierburg MAF give realistic and meaningful figures for the DDE4 to work with .
Brian :D

[Westonboy]

Yes, you will need the MAFAM section turned on in order that the Pierburg MAF give realistic and meaningful figures for the DDE4 to work with .
Brian :D

Hi Brian thanks for the info, I thought the old bus was going realy well. Am I correct in thinking that setting 5 with maf on will be ok.

[Roverron]

Ron I'm afraid I will have to contradict you on this occasion.
The Bosch MAF will rarely if EVER fail with a lower than expected airflow figure, they fail 99% of the time by the signal given to the ECM being higher than an in spec MAF.
The result of amplifying a signal which is higher than normal to begin with, is to compound the error.
People will see an "improvement" as the ECM sees a airflow figure at idle which is more akin to that seen from a normal in spec MAF at 1500 RPM, i.e over fuelling considerably ;)
Brian :D

What planet are you on!

I have sold thousands of mafam, digimafams, and Synergy 2a for the L series and BMW engined cars and all do exactly what they are designed to do. (I have the feedback to prove it, not that I need it as my satisfied customers can speak for them selves)

if none of these Bosch mafs had developed a weak signal then:-

a) The products would not have worked or just produced smoke from the overfuelling.
b) Its complete nonsense (and ignorance of both the digimafam and Synergy 2a's functioning) to say that "improvement is due to an increase in the airflow signal at idle" WHY? because the signal is not boosted equally over the range - there is little or no boost at idle.

Yes, some mafs to go high and I clearly state this on my website and in this case you do not want to amplify it - obviously. In which case you replace the bosch maf with a pierburgh where a Synergy 2a or Digimafam is fitted.

But what do I know - I've only been selling mafams since 2004, having proved it worked for me on my 45.

You may a T4, but you have a lot to learn and are clearly not conversant with my products. I don't think you are doing your reputation any favours.

Ron

[Roverron]

I have a brand new Pierburg maf. At present my synergy is set on 5 with maf switched of. The car performs realy well, should I have the maf switched on as well, and will this enhance the performance.

Which maf do you have fitted?

If its the 070 maf, then you should be on settings 6 to 10 and with the maf switch on.

R

[Westonboy]

Hi Ron, I am afraid I dont know what sort of Pierberg I have got, it was fitted by Jules 6 months ago, and he set the synergy 2 at the same time. Whatever setting it should be, the fact is my car has been achieving 48mpg and drives very smoothly.:}

[Roverron]

Hi Ron, I am afraid I dont know what sort of Pierberg I have got, it was fitted by Jules 6 months ago, and he set the synergy 2 at the same time. Whatever setting it should be, the fact is my car has been achieving 48mpg and drives very smoothly.:}

Whatever one it is, just leave things as they are if the car is going well and 48mpg is very respectable.

Ron

[Westonboy]

Whatever one it is, just leave things as they are if the car is going well and 48mpg is very respectable.

Ron

Many thanks for your advice.:}

[marinabrian]

What planet are you on!

I have sold thousands of mafam, digimafams, and Synergy 2a for the L series and BMW engined cars and all do exactly what they are designed to do. (I have the feedback to prove it, not that I need it as my satisfied customers can speak for them selves)

if none of these Bosch mafs had developed a weak signal then:-

a) The products would not have worked or just produced smoke from the overfuelling.
b) Its complete nonsense (and ignorance of both the digimafam and Synergy 2a's functioning) to say that "improvement is due to an increase in the airflow signal at idle" WHY? because the signal is not boosted equally over the range - there is little or no boost at idle.

Yes, some mafs to go high and I clearly state this on my website and in this case you do not want to amplify it - obviously. In which case you replace the bosch maf with a pierburgh where a Synergy 2a or Digimafam is fitted.

But what do I know - I've only been selling mafams since 2004, having proved it worked for me on my 45.

You may a T4, but you have a lot to learn and are clearly not conversant with my products. I don't think you are doing your reputation any favours.

Ron
Not Mars fortunately :getmecoat:
Ok then Ron, this is my pledge to you, I will learn everything I need to know about your product.
I will then, complete with reverse engineered circuit diagrams, explain the cause and effect of what this product does in relation to the diesel engine management system fitted to our cars.
I'm sorry if you feel I'm being deliberately antagonistic toward you, however without asking an owner if they have one of your products fitted, I can see immediately by seeing the incorrect airflow figures given as greyed out figures on the live data screen.
The Pierburg MAF is a reasonable compromise, but that is exactly what it is a compromise, which underfuels at 3000 RPM

Brian :)

[Roverron]

Not Mars fortunately :getmecoat:
Ok then Ron, this is my pledge to you, I will learn everything I need to know about your product.
I will then, complete with reverse engineered circuit diagrams, explain the cause and effect of what this product does in relation to the diesel engine management system fitted to our cars.
Brian :)

You will be wasting your time because what matters is the end result and over a million quids worth of Mafams, Digimafam, Synergys and the modules sold by my colleagues at Energy Tuning have been sold since 2005.

99% of owners just want something that works and neither want to hear, nor would understand the technical aspects.

Ron

[BigRuss]

Sorry Ron but Brians statement about the Bosch maf failures is correct, almost every Bosch maf that I've seen has failed with too high a signal.

I've seen hundreds of 75 and ZT diesels, I see them on an almost daily basis and sometimes multiples a day, I always check the maf voltage and airflow readings to see if they're in spec.
I don't do this to sell anything to anyone, all I want is for owners to get the best out of their cars, if their maf has failed they're free to get a replacement from anywhere they want.

I've also used a Synergy for years too, and know that using the mafam on a failing Bosch maf with too high a signal just throws the airflow readings even further out at both idle and higher up the rev range no matter what mafam setting.

In no way am I knocking the Synergy in any way, it's provided an effective simple way of boosting the performance on our cars and enabled the use of the cheaper Pierburg maf, but the Pierburg does underfuel at 3000 revs.

Russ

[Roverron]

Sorry Ron but Brians statement about the Bosch maf failures is correct, almost every Bosch maf that I've seen has failed with too high a signal.

I've seen hundreds of 75 and ZT diesels, I see them on an almost daily basis, I always check the maf voltage and airflow readings to see if they're in spec.
I don't do this to sell anything to anyone, all I want is for owners to get the best out of their cars, if their maf has failed they're free to get a replacement from anywhere they want.

I've also used a Synergy for years too, and know that using the mafam on a failing Bosch maf with too high a signal just throws the airflow readings even further out at both idle and higher up the rev range no matter what mafam setting.

In no way am I knocking the Synergy in any way, it's provided an effective simple way of boosting the performance on our cars and enabled the use of the cheaper Pierburg maf, but the Pierburg does underfuel at 3000 revs.

Russ
I think your definition of fail is different to mine.

I agree if the signal has become too high then the maf can considered to have failed and yes, boosting it even more will make matters worse.

In my experience and that of my many customers, the maf goes out of spec and underfuells the car due to a drop in signal more often than failing high. Hence the Synergy 2 and mafams work. If there was no such thing as an underfuelling maf, neither the Synergy nor mafam would work as they do and in fact I may have need to design an attenuator instead of an amplifier.
Ron

[BigRuss]

With too the signal on the maf being high this translates to EMS seeing the airflow as being higher and fuels accordingly ie. it overfuels, not underfuels

So with nearly every failed Bosch maf I've seen the car has been overfuelling not underfuelling so using the mafam would just make matters worse.

Russ

[marinabrian]

You will be wasting your time because what matters is the end result and over a million quids worth of Mafams, Digimafam, Synergys and the modules sold by my colleagues at Energy Tuning have been sold since 2005.

99% of owners just want something that works and neither want to hear, nor would understand the technical aspects.

Ron

Or call me cynical, perhaps this is something you'd prefer they didn't hear :shrug:
Owners deserve more than mystery, and "smoke and mirrors".
I will as promised do this, and further more I will do it without charge to a single owner.
I have pointed out that MAFAM and Pierburg is a reasonable compromise, certainly when the price of the Bosch MAF was in excess of £250.
What is disingenuous, is to suggest that the Pierburg MAF in conjunction with MAFAM, is a direct drop in replacement for a genuine Bosch MAF, or indeed a failing Bosch MAF will be assisted by amplifying an already higher than normal output signal.
The figures simply don't stack up I'm afraid.
Out of the many hundreds of diesel 75 and ZT I've diagnosed, not one car fitted with either MAFAM, or Synergy in conjunction with ether a replacement Pierburg MAF, or indeed an original failing Bosch MAF has correct airflow readings, not one.
You state over £1000000 worth of your related products have been sold, and indeed it would be reasonable to assume continuous improvement have been made to your products?
If this is the case, they must given the intervening eight years of development be perfect? no?
Just because there are many wrongs, do they they make a right ?:getmecoat:

It may be worthy to note, I have no vested interest in selling an owner a Bosch MAF, nor any "electronic correction" for an incorrect specification MAF.

I do however have an analytical thought train, and will apply this in the interests of all Rover 75 and MG ZT owners.

Brian :)

[Roverron]

With too the signal on the maf being high this translates to EMS seeing the airflow as being higher and fuels accordingly ie. it overfuels, not underfuels

So with nearly every failed Bosch maf I've seen the car has been overfuelling not underfuelling.

Russ

Correct - I do actually understand how the ecm uses the maf signal!
Its just not my experience even if it is yours. (which doesn't make either of us right)

Logically if all my Synergy and mafam/digimfam customers had 'high' failed mafs and their engines were therefore being overfuelled by the ecm, then:-

a)there'd be no loss of performance (apart from that due to gross over fuelling)
b)the Synergy or mafam/digimafam would exacerbate the problem.

[marinabrian]

Correct - I do actually understand how the ecm uses the maf signal!
Its just not my experience even if it is yours. (which doesn't make either of us right)

Logically if all my Synergy and mafam/digimfam customers had 'high' failed mafs and their engines were therefore being overfuelled by the ecm, then:-

a)there'd be no loss of performance (apart from that due to gross over fuelling)
b)the Synergy or mafam/digimafam would exacerbate the problem.
Correct Ron ;)
Brian :D

[Westonboy]

Could I make the observation that with synergy 2 fitted my car recently passed the mot emissions test comfortably, can I therefore assume that the air /fuel mixture is correct.

[johnny t]

Just to add my experience when i fitted my synergy back in the dark days of the £250 bosch mafs instant fuel consumption improvement and performance increase I don't know the ins and outs of it but it worked for me

[ProfDave]

Having seen the long term affects of MAF degeneration, this is accelerated considerably by this particular "performance mod" which is nothing more than a placebo, and actually reduces performance slightly.
Air flow figures for a compensated Pierburg MAF are as follows

Idle 510mg per stroke
3000 RPM 610mg per stroke

This is opposed to a Bosch MAF

Idle 480mg per stroke
3000 RPM 720mg per stroke.

So what do these figures mean, with the Pierburg fitted, your car will be overfuelling at low speeds and underfuelling at higher speeds.

The Pierburg MAF may have been a reasonable compromise when Bosch MAF units cost over £250, but now with the price of the real unit being just over £100, there is no need ;)

Brian :D

interesting that!!! I have a PB and Synergy; certainly over fuelling at low power (quite diesel whiff) and the occaisional slight white smoke when starting (not from cold or hot but after a short run prior to complete warm up)

I love the performance and my auto tourer is giving great economy of 42-44mpg on my weekly 500 mile commute.

I may save up some pennies and go back to a Bosch; only thing was I was understanding the PB MAF was pretty bomb proof compared to original one??

[ProfDave]

Could I make the observation that with synergy 2 fitted my car recently passed the mot emissions test comfortably, can I therefore assume that the air /fuel mixture is correct.


diesel test is just a smoke test I guess?? The slight overfuelling is not going to be picked up

[rossocorsa]

Having seen the long term affects of MAF degeneration, this is accelerated considerably by this particular "performance mod" which is nothing more than a placebo, and actually reduces performance slightly.
Air flow figures for a compensated Pierburg MAF are as follows

Idle 510mg per stroke
3000 RPM 610mg per stroke

This is opposed to a Bosch MAF

Idle 480mg per stroke
3000 RPM 720mg per stroke.

So what do these figures mean, with the Pierburg fitted, your car will be overfuelling at low speeds and underfuelling at higher speeds.

The Pierburg MAF may have been a reasonable compromise when Bosch MAF units cost over £250, but now with the price of the real unit being just over £100, there is no need ;)

Brian :D

Been using torque app on my phone gives maf figures miles out from these although it drives seemingly ok if not as powerful as I'd like, the figures are quoted in g/s on torque is this actually the same measure or not? Idle is 15 g/s which seems miles out compared to 0.480?



EDIT: Thread now closed at the request of the club director.