No cracks, but heavy visual damage on reverse clutch piston

[joel antonio]

Greetings gurus and non-gurus friends!!!:

First of all, I will like to thank all of you for this wonderful thread and the incredible "how to guides". All the problems and fixes done by myself on my 2001 Tourer KV6 2.5 auto, have been guided by this forum. :hurray::hurray::hurray:.

Well, several weeks ago my Jatco autobox begin to do harsh gear change only from 2nd. to 3rd. and only on slow accelerations, Up-hills and during down-hills when breaking. Other gears and reverse just fine. After reading many threads regarding Jatco JF506E on solenoids and reverse piston crack similar symptoms.

I did my step-by-step check:


First; the oil change. Oil came out dark but with no burnt smell. I will say normal state after 20,000 km/2year. New oil (yes, the right one Rover-MG, right temperature, right level). Same problem.:confused:
Second; solenoids ohms value review. Non out of range. :(
Third; reverse clutch piston removal operation and inspection, no cracks.:cry:

Yes no cracks but the condition on the reverse piston is a little….:eek: (one picture says more than thousand words).



Please take your time and review my attached PDF, and feel free :chat: to give any advise :grouphug: on my actual situation.


Meanwhile I´ll be doing the timing belt change….:D


PD: My apologies for my english...



Best regards
Joel Antonio

Segovia, Spain.
Rover 75 2001 KV6 2.5 auto.

[catmandu]

Joel, it looks as if there has been a loose chip of metal bouncing around in that cog, and the marks on the outer face look to be grinder marks, could it be that the previous owner had this trouble and has tried to dress it up rather than replace? I would certainly replace these parts but am not sure if this would be the cause of the harsh gear change.

[joel antonio]

Hi Catmandu:

Yes, I´m the second owner as you point it. By other hand I don´t know how to be sure if the pressure plates are in the limits of wearing to be replaced or not. So any reference to measure the minimum tolerance will be very helpful.

Best regards,
Joel Antonio.

[catmandu]

Hi Joel,
I can't find any reference to the tolerances on these parts at the moment, but I think that the damage that you show on the parts negates any consideration of tolerance, I think that the only way forward is to replace them. There is an excellent How-to on here on this very problem with lots of photos and I think that you can see from these that your parts are probably unservicable.

Regards

[Piccolo]

Hi Joel,
So glad I found this... not that its something to be glad about though...
Your symptoms of slow accelerations, Up-hills, etc. match exactly what I experience with my 75!!! A trip to the specialist revealed no fault codes but an oil change was done. Gear change somewhat smoother but the mild shifts of 2nd-3rd(vice-versa) are still evident. I to thought reverse piston cracked but being an '03 model I assumed it would have the uprated piston and am not that experienced(scared more like) to tackle the task.

I can reproduce this shifting issue about 99% on a particular ascending corner in my area.

Hopefully we can get a definitive answer on this as it tarnishes such a great ride.

[beinet1]

Hi Joel,

I am posting my opinions on this as I did on the other site:

The scratches you see in the first picture, seems to be grinding marks from the manufacturing where they have removed the sharp edges after drilling the hole.
The marks on the scond picture is only "landing marks" from the reverse piston.
The marks you see on the edge of the inside tooths, is just indents from the torque from the clutch plates.
The mark in the tooth of the clutch plate is probably the point where the lazer/water jet has started/stopped during the manufacturing of the plate.

I dont think these marks are of any reason for your problems, its just marks from manufacturing/normal usage of the parts.
I am not saying I am rigth in this, but this is how it looks from my point of view... :)

P.S.

Mine did not look much different:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN3905.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN3905.jpg.html)

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN3922.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN3922.jpg.html)

[joel antonio]

Hi Piccolo, beinet1 and fellows:

I was waiting few days to see what other people were saying about my "status-quo". I did the same inquiry on the other rover forums. Taking a good look on beinet1 pics I can see that his reverse piston shows the same indents that´s on mine.
like to know beinet1, what did you change at the end?
Because my plan was to get the reverse piston clutch JF506E.PIS01, along with the o-rings kit JF506E.ORK01 but I´m not sure about what to order now.:shrug:

Best regards
Joel Antonio.

[lovema75]

I have the same issue, from research the problem appears to be the clutch packs. I suspected this when I saw the very black oil the came out - not burnt, but rather signs of something having broken up.

In a conversation I had with JPart they stated that the fluid should never be black during normal working use.

My appears to have been used for a lot of towing, hence the probable cause of problems. The expert from JPart said that the box was not suitable for towing...( sorry all you caravan owners!).

Certainly I will not buy a car again that has obviously been used for towing.

[beinet1]

Hi Piccolo, beinet1 and fellows:

I was waiting few days to see what other people were saying about my "status-quo". I did the same inquiry on the other rover forums. Taking a good look on beinet1 pics I can see that his reverse piston shows the same indents that´s on mine.
like to know beinet1, what did you change at the end?
Because my plan was to get the reverse piston clutch JF506E.PIS01, along with the o-rings kit JF506E.ORK01 but I´m not sure about what to order now.:shrug:

Best regards
Joel Antonio.

Hi Joel,

In my case, my car had clear symptoms of a cracked reverse piston which was revealed during disassembly. New reversepiston + seals and clutch plates for the reverse made it all up and running nicely again. Its a bit slow on gearing and not super smooth, but smoot enough for normal driving. It has now done 7000km since the repair. All details can be found here: http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=122171

[kaiser]

I would suspect that someone might have welded the plate and dressed it with an angle grinder.

Are there any marks on the reverse of the plate, where the marks are in front.?

[joel antonio]

Hi Lovema75, Beinet1 and Kaiser:

Lovema75:
Pointing on the quality of the oil that came out it was really dark without burnt smell!!! much more than the last change. Do you remember the part number of the clutch packs?

Kaiser:
No marks on the reverse of the plate nor the front.

Beinet1:
If I understand correctly from your thread “Autobox problems - possible cause?” Do you replace the reverse clutch piston, and also the reverse and high clutch friction plates? Do you have your invoice with the part numbers? I´m planning to replace all this components and the o-rings.:getmecoat:

Now back to the timing belts…..:drool4:
Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[lovema75]

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that the reverse piston problem and the clutch pack issue are 2 different unrelated faults. Mind drives perfectly normally apart from the 2/3 gearchanges and suffers none of the drive loss associated with a failing reverse piston.

Having said that, it would seem sensible to change this anyway if you are opening up the gearbox.

A very helpful member sent details of the parts required, but stupidly I deleted it by mistake. I wish I could remember who it was!

[Piccolo]

Hey Einar,
I noticed at the end of your piston replacement thread you experienced harsh 3rd-2nd changes and suspected TCC valve issue? Did you do this change and did it help the changes thereafter?

[beinet1]

Hey Einar,
I noticed at the end of your piston replacement thread you experienced harsh 3rd-2nd changes and suspected TCC valve issue? Did you do this change and did it help the changes thereafter?

Hi,

I have not done the replacement and has still some harsh downshift from 3rd to 2nd, but this is avoided if I brake/drive "correctly". TCC seems to work well as It always engage somwhere close to 60 MPH and this is seen as a sligth drop in the RPM. The box is working OK for normal use, but I think a reconditioned box would be smoother.. :)

P.S.
Regarding parts.. look them up at automatic choice`part list here: https://www.automaticchoice.com/Catalogue/jf506e.pdf
I have had great service from them :)

[joel antonio]

Hi fellows:

I finally make an order for a reverse piston and the clutch kit. It´s on the way now. I´ll post my results shortly.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[Piccolo]

Hey Joel,

How did you get on with the kit?

[joel antonio]

Hi Piccolo:

As you know I was doing two things at the same time, the timing belt change while waiting for the kit. Because one of the stud bolt breaks under torque procedure when I was re-assembling the front plate of the timing belt all the work is on standing-by waiting for the stud bolt from NL today. Probably I´ll finishing the re-assembly of the timing belt cover plate and the other components this weekend and continue with the re-assembly of the autobox cover plate which is my last step left.
About the kit received is set on the autobox waiting for the cover plate to set, but because I have the engine hanging on only one engine mount I need to finish the other work to be able to loose the mounting point on the autobox side to get more play angles to get the cover back.

Don´t worry I´ll update my progress.

Here´s the link of the broken bolt:
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=156625

Cheers...
Joel Antonio

[joel antonio]

Hi fellows:

Updating my dual project:

After finishing the re-assembly timing belts project, I put my hands on the cover plate of my autobox ending the closing procedure, including 5 liters of autobox oil.

With everything :smilie_re: re-check it , I turned my key (crossing my fingers at the same time) and for several seconds, the worst of the sounds came from every where from the engine bay:band:; valve taping on one side and grinder sound from the autobox,(at least no check engine warning, nor EP on autobox).... but I almost die...:cry:, then the noises start to dim....Turn off the engine, review oil engine level more oil needed... Coolant okay. And for the second try... This time more smooth... Time to check the autobox response thru gears... without tires and on the stand the autobox response very erratic. But no EP warning...!!!
After a warm-up to normal operating temp I did the draining task getting just one cup off the autobox. Tires on place,car on the floor, and out for the test drive. The engine revving okay and the autobox giving the silkest gear change ever...!!!!!!!.:hurray:

after 5 miles round trip :driving:I drove to my home for a very cold beer..!!!:drool4:

:clap:Thanks to everybody for the good tips and ideas to finish my dual project.

King regards :jig:

Joel Antonio.

[eumjmorris]

Joel, seems you may have cured the same problem that lovema75 had with his car, which is now mine. Can you tell us again what actual new parts you bought, and from where, also, how hard was it to replace these parts, as I am just afraid to try it. Hope David is reading too? Kind regards, Mike M.

[lovema75]

Did someone call?:)

[joel antonio]

Hi Mike:

You bet on that, I´ll be posting all the information regarding both projects, and all the tips and tricks learned from my own experience at the end of this weekend.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[lovema75]

I am like a bad smell, my presence is everywhere...

...I shall watch developments from afar with interest...:cool2:

[ChrisAs]

Hello

I have a red trought all kind of different post on the reverse piston crack but I am not really sure that it is my problem.

Problem : when putting gear in R nothing happens (when small incline and 3000rmp the car slowly move backwards).
All other gears works fine


If I would go for a try to change reverse pistion below some questions:

Is there not a risk that parts fall out when removing gear cover ?
Do you need any special tooling
Any particular problem when reassemble
Do you have any photo showing the plug for drain and refill gearbox oil?
Is the operation possible whit the car lifted with a jack ?

[joel antonio]

Hi fellows:

This is my last update on my autobox proyect:

The kit used came from Vanmatic LTD:
http://www.vanmatic.com/news_item.php?wnID=4125

86.RP.01 JF506E Repair Kit (Rev & High Clutch) £75.00+VAT

JF506E High & Reverse Repair Package
Consists of: Ali Piston, Seal Kit, Reverse Frictions, High Frictions, Reverse Steels, High Steels, Reverse Pressure Plate, Reverse Snap Ring.

From the procedure posted on the tech section Work instruction -R75 reverse piston Jatco auto.

Only change on this procedure.

I never loose the Sub-frame bolt on NSF, instead I Place jack and block of wood under the autobox and loose the 4 bolts that attach engine to uppermost mount and using judgement lower the jack in turn until you are happy that you have sufficient access to the end panel of the box. I lowered it until the uppermost lay against the autobox engine mount by about 6 to 7 cm.

When refilling the autobox use the transmission harness (the one that you can read solenoids values) pin 7 & 8 gives the temperature 35 Celsius =1.49 ohms and 40 Celsius = 1.19 ohms. Follow the procedure of replacing autobox oil also on the tech section.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[lovema75]

Hi fellows:

This is my last update on my autobox proyect:

The kit used came from Vanmatic LTD:
http://www.vanmatic.com/news_item.php?wnID=4125

86.RP.01 JF506E Repair Kit (Rev & High Clutch) £75.00+VAT

JF506E High & Reverse Repair Package
Consists of: Ali Piston, Seal Kit, Reverse Frictions, High Frictions, Reverse Steels, High Steels, Reverse Pressure Plate, Reverse Snap Ring.

From the procedure posted on the tech section Work instruction -R75 reverse piston Jatco auto.

Only change on this procedure.

I never loose the Sub-frame bolt on NSF, instead I Place jack and block of wood under the autobox and loose the 4 bolts that attach engine to uppermost mount and using judgement lower the jack in turn until you are happy that you have sufficient access to the end panel of the box. I lowered it until the uppermost lay against the autobox engine mount by about 6 to 7 cm.

When refilling the autobox use the transmission harness (the one that you can read solenoids values) pin 7 & 8 gives the temperature 35 Celsius =1.49 ohms and 40 Celsius = 1.19 ohms. Follow the procedure of replacing autobox oil also on the tech section.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.


Hi Joel,

Do we take it that your repair has been successful?

[lovema75]

Hello

I have a red trought all kind of different post on the reverse piston crack but I am not really sure that it is my problem.

Problem : when putting gear in R nothing happens (when small incline and 3000rmp the car slowly move backwards).
All other gears works fine


If I would go for a try to change reverse pistion below some questions:

Is there not a risk that parts fall out when removing gear cover ?
Do you need any special tooling
Any particular problem when reassemble
Do you have any photo showing the plug for drain and refill gearbox oil?
Is the operation possible whit the car lifted with a jack ?#

I would first be checking to ensure the gearbox fluid level is correct before moving on to more serious things.

[joel antonio]

Hi Fellows:

Until yesterday everthing was okay already with 400 kms done, but this morning my autobox gives a EP warning with the result only first and second gears working. I´m looking to get a second hand autobox to swap it. I did check the oil quality and there´s a burnt smell and is very dark. My conclusion is that the autobox was almost ready to die. I did a great care with the transmission but I´m the second onwer....

By the way there´s anybody who knows if is possible to swap a 2003 autobox for my 2001. I´m concerning about it. There´s a numbering at the top side of the autobox where a little breather is, with the number PR00XXX. Some help will be great on this matter.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[kaiser]

I have not followed this thread, so this might be off course, but in any case:

I am not sure the EP just refers to the box. I would try and find out when an EP warning could be created.
I have an idea it could be caused by engine problems as well.

[lovema75]

Sorry to hear this.

Draw off a small amount of fluid and see what colour it is, if it's very black then the clutch packs must be breaking up.

If the fluid look ok, try checking the wiring - I believe some EP problems have been the result of poor connections or damage in the wiring loom.

Others more expert will doubtless know better.

[SD1too]

I did check the oil quality and there´s a burnt smell and is very dark.
That sounds like worn out friction linings. You'll be much better off paying someone to repair your box than gambling on a used second-hand one.

Simon

[joel antonio]

Hi Kaiser Lovema75 and SD1t00:

To answer all the questions, I change the oil again, the oil came out very dark and the smell was like something burnt. I did an on-road test again running just nice for about 5 kilometers and then again the EP warning and the autobox just going on first and second gear only.

I´m going to see if the loom connection is okay re-reading the values of the solenoids and them to the other side to the ecu.

About the swap try out... well we´re talking about 500€ (used autobox + labour & 3 months warranty). Against the cost of one rebuild 1,800€ more or less.

Kind regards
Joel Antonio

[SD1too]

... well we´re talking about 500€ (used autobox + labour & 3 months warranty). Against the cost of one rebuild 1,800€ more or less.
Joel,

The labour to remove your gearbox and fit a second-hand gearbox = the labour to remove your gearbox and refit it after repair.
So, the additional expense is opening your gearbox, removing the damaged friction components and fitting new ones. You could try to get a quote for that. The 1,800 Euros price is for reconditioning, i.e. routinely renewing a number of components irrespective of whether there's anything wrong with them, so you'll be paying for a lot of things which you don't need.

One thing which concerns me is what has caused this fault. It seems to have occurred after your repair work. :confused: What are your thoughts on this Joel?

Simon

[beinet1]

Hi Joel,

I am posting my opinions on this as I did on the other site:

The scratches you see in the first picture, seems to be grinding marks from the manufacturing where they have removed the sharp edges after drilling the hole.
The marks on the scond picture is only "landing marks" from the reverse piston.
The marks you see on the edge of the inside tooths, is just indents from the torque from the clutch plates.
The mark in the tooth of the clutch plate is probably the point where the lazer/water jet has started/stopped during the manufacturing of the plate.

I dont think these marks are of any reason for your problems, its just marks from manufacturing/normal usage of the parts.
I am not saying I am rigth in this, but this is how it looks from my point of view... :)

P.S.

Mine did not look much different:

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN3905.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN3905.jpg.html)

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN3922.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN3922.jpg.html)


Hi Joel,

As previousily guessed, I think your reverse piston has nothing to do with your issue. It seems that the problem lies deeper into the box. Something are causing excessive wear on your clutch plates making the gearbox to fail. As you say, looking for a good known 2nd hand or reconditioned gearbox would be the best alternative to get the car back on the road without spending to much time on your old gearbox. IT would anyway be nice to see it opened up when you have done the replacement to see if you can find the cause for the problem :)

Keep up the good work :)

[joel antonio]

Hi beinet1& SD1too:

Well SD1too I was reviewing my step-by-step guide and notes of what I did trying to figure out what happen, and the only thing that probably is what is causing the actual problem is inner system and ducts contamination. I´m going to try to make my self clear on my theory. The end panel must be dressed with a black gasket maker ej. Wynns. I remember that I over dose the outer border to be "sure no oil leaks". This makes a very thick black out ring when I finish to set the plate in place and secure it with the bolts. I did wait enough time to allow to dry or cure the out ring but; and here´s my theory, the inside was yet wet. Then when I add the oil is was only a matter of time to dissolve the inner thick black gasket thus contaminating all the system. An oil change after the failure won´t cure the problem and this is my conclusion.

I´m flipping by cards to see which will be the best approach this is, open again the end cap take all the components to clean and inspect what is the actual condition of the clutch plates and steel plates. But what about for example the body valve or the solenoids, or set a second hand autobox (with only 44,000kms) for roughly 500€ on a specialized autobox shop with 3 months warranty.

Any how today is Wednesday let see how I feel this weekend to see if i´m on the mood to work again with the autobox.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio

[SD1too]

... inspect what is the actual condition of the clutch plates and steel plates.
That is a very sensible approach. You will find out what has gone wrong, have the opportunity to repair it, and become wiser for the experience.

Keep us informed. :)

Simon

[joel antonio]

Hi ChrisAS:

Answering your questions:

Is there not a risk that parts fall out when removing gear cover ?



Following the procedure you will have no problem just be aware that the back plate is under spring pressure.


Do you need any special tooling



I would say that the only special tool is a pair of C-Clamps to remove one circlip that hold the reverse drum that also is under spring pressure.

Any particular problem when reassemble



"Mastering the technical way or best approach" to place the back plate in place is a little tricky, take your time playing with it before insert the drum assembly. (you will see jacking up and down to get the right spot...!!!:D)


Do you have any photo showing the plug for drain and refill gearbox oil?



I have plenty of documentation, I´ll try to unload everything, but I think there´s a limited size on the thread.


Is the operation possible whit the car lifted with a jack ?



Use two, one on the same point that you use to change a tire, the second jack to hold the weight of your engine and to have raising & lowering fine control for your autobox work area window.


Kind regards.
Joel Antonio.

[joel antonio]

Here´s additional info:

[joel antonio]

For any one :grouphug: to like to have my other documentation feel free to ask by PM. They´re to big to be uploaded.

Kind regards.

Joel Antonio.

[SD1too]

The end panel must be dressed with a black gasket maker ej. Wynns.
Joel,

My ATSG overhaul manual says that "a light coat of silicone sealant" should be applied.

Simon

[joel antonio]

Joel,

My ATSG overhaul manual says that "a light coat of silicone sealant" should be applied.

Simon

Hi SD1too:

Well I can say I did an extra double light coat....:banghead: that´s for sure. I was willing to open again the end plate to review all the cluch plates but removing the reverse drum is an ease job, but there´s a big circlip that hold several bigger clutch plates that have to be hold by an special tools because they´re under spring pressure very tight (page 36 Atra manual) and there´s no way to access the others (page 8) without actually removing the autobox from the engine. I´ll have a chance to see my autobox completed open in 2 weeks. I´m going to swap my 150,000 kms. for a second hand 44,000 kms. By other hand it was fun, I did several DIY already, inlet manifold, fix the VIS motors, the water thermostat, central locking door system, this summer cam belts and autobox, but a mistake will cost me 500€. Lesson learned and advise for the others.

Kind regards
Joel Antonio

[lovema75]

I think you have been very unfortunate Joel, several others have had success with this repair. Clearly there are other issues with the gearbox, and it's not necessarily anything you have done to it.

Personally considering that there are 8 litres of fluid in the system, I would think it unlikely that a little bit of sealant could cause such problems, especially with the heat involved.

This was what made me hesitate to repair the box in my last car - my feeling was that the damage would be more widespread.

[joel antonio]

Hi lovema75:

I´m agree with you, the procedure is no "space technology", certainly my autobox was having a very harsh gear changes, too annoying for me, specially when driving up-hill. Before my attempt to "discover" if my problem was a cracked reverse piston, I did my inquiries on several autobox workshops, all of them without exception told me that to be sure of what my problem was they have to remove the autobox to make a deeper inspection, this because I already did the common initial troubleshooting (oil level and quality, solenoids values, ECU clear-values, etc). This in turn meant "€€€€" out-from-the-box, just to give me a quote, so I decide to go on the project with an estimate cost of about 100€.

Now it´s true that the unexpected result is a mystery, developed after several hundred kilometers, and not from d-day.

My advise to anybody to try to attempt this, it´s that you must understand the risk involve in it. With a quote that my result will remain unsolved for several weeks, until the mechanic will answer what was happening.

Kind regards.

[SD1too]

... here´s my theory, the inside was yet wet. Then when I add the oil is was only a matter of time to dissolve the inner thick black gasket thus contaminating all the system. An oil change after the failure won´t cure the problem and this is my conclusion.
Hi Joel,

If your theory is correct and it's the black sealant which is discolouring the fluid then your friction linings are probably o.k. So no need for any major dismantling to inspect them.

Why not just take off the end cover, remove all traces of your gasket sealant and apply the recommended thin coat of silicone sealant. Replace end cover and flush the transmission using the pump-out method. With any luck, any particles causing the loss of your two gears will come out with the fluid. Keep flushing until you get clean ATF out. It might be worth a try.

Simon

[joel antonio]

Hi SD1too:

That´s a good idea to make the flush-out very cheap and I have nothing to loose (well actually...) . I can´t do it this weekend because I must get the oil from a local supplier next week, I may say 15 liters just to be sure.

Kind regards

Joel Antonio.

[DMGRS]

I'd do that - it may be worth buying a fine strainer to help:

1. Drain fluid
2. Filter with strainer to remove bits of sealant in suspension
3. Refill, run for a few minutes and repeat

Should be cheaper than lots of new fluid.

Edit: I've just got an auto too, I look forward to the oily bits needing attention! :D

[SD1too]

Nice idea Matt, but I'm not sure that the fluid is suitable for re-use:
... I change the oil again, the oil came out very dark and the smell was like something burnt.

Simon

[joel antonio]

Hi Matt and Simon:

Simon´s correct the oil got contaminated by the dissolved silicone, one thing is already cure silicone and another is uncured silicone, I did drain the oil this morning and again was dark and smelly for only 5 kilometers of test-drive, then I did open the back plate again, (on a flash by the way) and this is what I found. The uncured silicone that got in contact with the oil became a grease messy deposit. I thin film of this deposit cover the steel plates and the friction linings on the reverse piston, perhaps giving the actual slipping gear situation. The gummy, (instead of the silky oily) sensation (sticky...) on the plates is not right, the plates hold together one to another.
So know I doubt that a flush-out with more oil will be able to "clean" the interiors of the gearbox.

If you have available some black silicone and autobox oil mix a little bit on your fingers and you´ll see what a mean.

Kind regards.

Joel Antonio.