Susp' HGF - Confirmation sought

[generic_username]

Hi all,

Suspected HGF on my 120.

Basically, I went down to the car to show my Dad the new exhaust, the car wouldn't turn over. It made a horrible cranking/whirring sound.

We suspected a flat battery so we attached the jump leads and after a few attempts the car came back to life, however the tell-tale white smoke began billowing from the rear. Aside from the smoke, the car sounded normal.

(Have had coolant issues since buying the car, the car loses it in line with how many times it's used, not the distance it covers. However today it the header tank was bone dry)

The reason I'm asking for confirmation is more to do with the fact that at first, the car wouldn't tick over - could it have been misplaced water in the piston blocking it from starting?

Also, whilst I'm asking - typical MLS installation cost at a garage?

[Gman2]

Don't jump to conclusions that it's defo HGF. A bone dry header tank could point to a number of leaks. How long have you had the car and what about it's history? Has the IMG been replaced? Is there sign of mayo in the usual places? Any coolant patches on the ground?

[kaiser]

Water in the combustion chamber is a distinct possibility.
Check under the oi filler cap for mayonnaise.
Check the oil for water.
Check the water for oil.

Monitor the water level and remove the spark plugs. A spark plug in water is much whiter than a normal running one.

Normally a failure of the seal on top would lead to combustion gases in the water, which you can test for.

The one possible that could cause a lot of the above is a leaking inlet manifold. that would let water leak into the engine, but would be relatively easy and cheap to sort out.

It might be worth a first stab at this.:)

[generic_username]

Don't jump to conclusions that it's defo HGF. A bone dry header tank could point to a number of leaks. How long have you had the car and what about it's history? Has the IMG been replaced? Is there sign of mayo in the usual places? Any coolant patches on the ground?

Hi there,

6 Months / no history with car / no mayo / not to my knowledge / a few drips of coolant a few weeks ago, however that was apparently a one-off.


I expect the ''no history'' part has set the alarm bells off for some people. Basically the seller owned it from 07-8, gave it to his Father and after his Father retired from driving, gave it back to his Son to sell. I did ask about the HG at the time of sale and it wasn't changed during Father/Son ownership.

Would IMG failure produce the white smoke though?

[kaiser]

Would IMG failure produce the white smoke though?

yes, if water gets into the cylinder, it produces white steam.

[generic_username]

Thank you,

Obviously I'd prefer for it to be the IMG that's gone as I expect it's £££ cheaper to fix.

Sorry for the vagueness of this question but how would I now establish if the IMG is the problem? Are there physical signs or is it an educated guess based on looking at the spark plugs etc?

[kaiser]

It the IMG has gone, there will be no combustion pressure in the water. There would normally be some mayonnaise under the oil filler cap, even with a hot engine.

If you have overheating and water being forcefully ejected from the cooling system, then you have HGF.

But with the symptoms you have described, I would replace the manifold gasket as a first step and have a look.

Whatever you do, check the water level regularly when cold, and don't rely on the temperature gauge. It will only show anything off MED from 115 degree and hotter or 75 and lower.

I know, daft, ain't it? But that is how it works.

[generic_username]

The excitement of owning a Rover :o

I'm not mechanically inclined so any repair work is going to be done through a garage I expect. Can anyone make a guestimate on fixing the IMG?

[suzublu]

The excitement of owning a Rover :o

I'm not mechanically inclined so any repair work is going to be done through a garage I expect. Can anyone make a guestimate on fixing the IMG?

A tenner for a gasket & about 1 hour labour.Do it yourself,only a few bolts :shrug::}

[generic_username]

Fingers crossed that that's the problem then.

I'll go and look at the car again this evening to check for Mayo and look at the spark plugs etc.

I shall report back!

[generic_username]

Guys, going to fix the IMG.

Just to clarify, the 120 ZT isn't a VVC is it?

And this is the part I need;

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID000090

2) Improved Inlet Manifold Gasket - Viton - Genuine MG Rover
LKJ101110 (http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-LKJ101110)
9.23 inc VAT

[chrissyboy]

Hi there,

6 Months / no history with car / no mayo / not to my knowledge / a few drips of coolant a few weeks ago, however that was apparently a one-off.


I expect the ''no history'' part has set the alarm bells off for some people. Basically the seller owned it from 07-8, gave it to his Father and after his Father retired from driving, gave it back to his Son to sell. I did ask about the HG at the time of sale and it wasn't changed during Father/Son ownership.

Would IMG failure produce the white smoke though?


no history with a ca dont mean a thing ,theresnone with any of my cars cos i do it all myself or get my guys to do it for me .all what you have said re the car is not hgf. it is more than likely a leaking inlet manifold .get a smoke test done on the intake system and watch the vapour come pouring out of the inlet manifold

[suzublu]

Guys, going to fix the IMG.

Just to clarify, the 120 ZT isn't a VVC is it?

And this is the part I need;

http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID000090

2) Improved Inlet Manifold Gasket - Viton - Genuine MG Rover
LKJ101110 (http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-LKJ101110)
9.23 inc VAT

Your car is not a VVC,& yes,that's the gasket you need.When you've got sorted,get a VVC inlet manifold as it's made of alloy,so eliminates the weak point & rarely leaks.;)

[generic_username]

Thanks Suzublu, I'll keep that in mind and see how I get on :)

The parts been ordered, my fingers are well and truly crossed!

Thanks all.

[generic_username]

I'm still waiting for the part to arrive, however I've begun the process of taking the assembly apart in preparation.

I'm having difficulty removing the fuel supply line and suspect pressure may be an issue.

I know there's a 'trick' involving removing a fuse however I haven't done that. Does anyone have inout or am I going to have to re assemble and remove the fuse?

Thanks

[kaiser]

There is pressure, but it is not what causes the problem.
To remove this, you must push the pipe into the fitting, while you pull the fitting back, then pull the pipe while holding the fitting. Should come loose quite easily.

Fit a towel around the pipe to catch any petrol that will escape.

Mind all the plastic bits, many will be brittle and might brake.

[generic_username]

Thanks Kaiser, got it off and have completed the job.

The gasket itself - if this makes sense - doesn't look hugely degraded. I envisioned it being cracked/ snapped/ hanging out and aside from some discoloration on the 'O' sections it doesn't appear to have any water on it.

I know its a bit early to diagnose from that statement but is this now a cause for concern?

[kaiser]

Look carefully, post a picture. Look for colourchanges across the bead. Usually you will see it at the two outer corners towards the bottom.

I will almost bet you a beer that this is compromised.

But get a picture up, better than a 1000 words!;)

[generic_username]

As requested :)

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y440/generic_usernamemgzt/56CA4916-5786-4723-958F-44F91AE67D13-1527-00000046E3CDD2AA_zpse58ee080.jpg (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/generic_usernamemgzt/media/56CA4916-5786-4723-958F-44F91AE67D13-1527-00000046E3CDD2AA_zpse58ee080.jpg.html)


Left side - looks like some copper seal is present?

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y440/generic_usernamemgzt/B0094DAB-E262-4D49-8D5A-556EC6D86E99-1527-00000046DCB1C251_zps49395281.jpg (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/generic_usernamemgzt/media/B0094DAB-E262-4D49-8D5A-556EC6D86E99-1527-00000046DCB1C251_zps49395281.jpg.html)


Right side

http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/y440/generic_usernamemgzt/5C1CFB13-540C-4A94-989A-FC85B6065765-1527-00000046D657D146_zps8cb7c77c.jpg (http://s1274.photobucket.com/user/generic_usernamemgzt/media/5C1CFB13-540C-4A94-989A-FC85B6065765-1527-00000046D657D146_zps8cb7c77c.jpg.html)

[kaiser]

Good pictures, but difficult to say. The seal looks pretty squashed next to the outer inlets.
Don't forget that there is heavy suction from the inlets, so if the water can penetrate, it will go into the inlet as a first choice.

It is easier to see on the V6, because the paper gasket will change colour from the water and oil. Your plastic manifold does not do that.

But I will be surprised if it has been leak free.

[generic_username]

And me, my Dad's had a look and his feeling is that it probably is leaking, however not enough to account for the sheer amount of steam coming out of the exhaust.

[kaiser]

Don't jump to conclusions.
If there is a leak, it will draw water through amazingly fast, especially on a closed throttle.

Don't predict. Try.

And hope for the best, it would be an easy fix it this is it, so let's hope.!:D

[generic_username]

Indeed! Thanks for your quick replies as well.

[SD1too]

generic_username,

Please can you put your engine type in the panel to the left of your posts? It assists understanding. :)

Simon

[generic_username]

Bad news I'm afraid :(

Part arrived, all put back together and the only change has been a slight reduction in white/smoke steam being chucked out of the exhaust.

I'm letting the car cool down and will then check the spark plugs for water.

There's some mayo on the oil cap, however it is a fractional amount. I had substantially more on my Peugeot 306's cap and the H.G apparently worked on that.

Fair to say it's likely to be HGF then?

*Edit*

I had a stainless steel exhaust fitted about 6 days ago. The white smoke wasn't present for the first few days but it has crossed my mind that it could be something in the exhaust causing it. I've checked Google and 'condensation' is a popular answer..however shouldn't that wear off within the space of about 1 minute?

[kaiser]

Take it easy. Just take the car for a short spin. It is possible that there is water in the exhaust system. It might need to clear.

It is possible that it is HGF, but I can hardly see that being the case without exhaust gas in the water.

Let it cool and have a look again.

We can still hope.

[generic_username]

Well, took it for a few runs and it appeared as though the white smoke had stopped, however I took it to the local garage this morning. They did the pressure and dye tests and their conclusion is the H.G is gone.

They didn't detect any external coolant leaks and there's no water in the oil.

The Garage owner said ''the minute there's a coolant leak, the temp' gauge becomes obsolete''. I've been using the cars temp' gauge as a 'health gauge' and I suppose I'm lucky as I don't appear to have warped anything, despite having water problems since the first day of ownership.

MLS gasket, timing belts and waterpump will be approx' £5-600, which is about what I expected. The guy who'll be doing the work is ex MGR which gives me some confidence.

It's a kick in the gonads but dare I say the rest of the car is in good working order and I'll get another year or two out of the beast :cool:

Problem resolved.

[kaiser]

Well, took it for a few runs and it appeared as though the white smoke had stopped, however I took it to the local garage this morning. They did the pressure and dye tests and their conclusion is the H.G is gone.

They didn't detect any external coolant leaks and there's no water in the oil.

The Garage owner said ''the minute there's a coolant leak, the temp' gauge becomes obsolete''. I've been using the cars temp' gauge as a 'health gauge' and I suppose I'm lucky as I don't appear to have warped anything, despite having water problems since the first day of ownership.

MLS gasket, timing belts and waterpump will be approx' £5-600, which is about what I expected. The guy who'll be doing the work is ex MGR which gives me some confidence.

It's a kick in the gonads but dare I say the rest of the car is in good working order and I'll get another year or two out of the beast :cool:

Problem resolved.

And what, exactly did they base this outcome on??
If I were you, I would drive it a bit and see if it looses water, or overheats, or pressurized the coolant system.
The temperature gauge is useless, and that goes for all the time, it will only show you something apart from medium if it is either under 75 degrees or over 115.

I am far from convinced that you have a HGF.

[generic_username]

Well it's been losing water ever since I bought the car, I've seen it go down in the header tank over the course of about 18 miles.

They said when they were doing the tests it the engine was pressurising itself to the point of spewing water.

[SD1too]

Generic_Username,

I agree with Kaiser. The evidence for head gasket failure just isn't there. You say that the white smoke has stopped and you don't have mixing of oil and coolant. That's good news.
... I took it to the local garage this morning. They did the pressure and dye tests and their conclusion is the H.G is gone.
I would ask them to justify their diagnosis by revealing the pressure reading they obtained.
They said ... the engine was pressurising itself to the point of spewing water.
"... to the point of .."? :confused: In other words, it wasn't actually ejecting water, they just thought that it might. Hmmmm.

You haven't made it clear whether or not you have detected any coolant loss since your recent engine work. So have you? It's easy to see if coolant has been ejected from the expansion tank cap after a journey.
And most importantly, did you follow MGR's procedure for bleeding the cooling system when you refilled it?

I wouldn't rush into spending hundreds of pounds on such flimsy evidence. Drive your car for a few days remembering that it is normal to have to top-up the expansion tank two or three times after refilling the coolant (that's my own experience anyway). See if it stabilises. Look for external coolant leaks. Activate the IPK disgnostics and watch the coolant temperature. Make sure that the fan starts at 104 degrees. Please report back.

Simon