Loose steering wheel spline.

[tourer]

Evening all, has anyone come across a loose steering wheel to column spline?
I've been looking into a front end rattle/rumble on my CDT Tourer and can find nothing obvious. Today was MOT day, so I left the undertray off and asked the examiner to let me know if he spotted anything relevant. He said everything looked perfect, except a little play on the steering wheel. He advised checking that the steering wheel nut was tight and check the top column bush.
I removed the steering wheel nut and was amazed how sloppy the fit was on the spline. I expected to struggle removing the wheel, but it fell off. I've refitted the steering wheel after trapping some 1.5 thou feeler guage down the gap and fitting a large washer onto the bolt. Still play there, but I do not think it is the source of the rattle anyway.
By the way, the play has been there since the car was a few months old.
Has anyone else noticed this play, maybe when fitting a new steering wheel?
As a retired engineer, I am used to splines usually being a tight fit.
Thanks in advance for your observations.

ps. Passed MOT with no problems, as usual.

[Anon3]

That doesn't sound right at all.
My feels perfectly normal with no slack, although I've never tried taking it off.
And as you suggest, wheels are normally quite tight and require a judicial slap to get them off.
I'll find out in a couple of weeks, as I'll be getting a brand new Walnut and
Sandstone one :}
Hence I'm interested to hear replies.

[seancar]

I have taken off hundreds of steering wheels and never come across this. Have you checked the steering wheel to see it there is a crack in the splined sleve.

[Anon3]

Also, seeing as you made no mention of how tight the nut was, I wonder if it just wasn't tightened up enough?

Have a look at this thread (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=46002) to see how tight they can be when trying to remove them.

[tourer]

Also, seeing as you made no mention of how tight the nut was, I wonder if it just wasn't tightened up enough?

Have a look at this thread (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=46002) to see how tight they can be when trying to remove them.

Nut was very tight, needed an 18 inch breaker bar to undo.
Sean, did not see any cracks, the splines are just very shallow and not a tight fit.
I must add, I have owned car from new and this is first time the steering wheel has been off. No accidents etc.
I do not want to give the impression there is a lot of play with the nut tightened, there isn't. I was just surprised how sloppy the fit was without the nut fitted.

[MangoMan]

Seeing as Sean has fitted so many I feel my reply somewhat redundant...

But as others have said, no play on mine either, and I have over time fitted 4 different steering wheels and all the same feel/fit.

I would try fitting another steering wheel to find out if it's the wheel or the shaft - hopefully the wheel... ;)

Ciao.

[seancar]

Will say bill it does not make scene does it.wheel splined steering column splined. Once together no movement and there should never be wear as it starts life as a tight fit.

[HarryM1BYT]

Will say bill it does not make scene does it.wheel splined steering column splined. Once together no movement and there should never be wear as it starts life as a tight fit.

I wonder if locktite's loose bearing solution might sort it? I can't really see how it might have play, if the nut is tight.

I think the MOT allows 25mm of free motion at the circumference of the wheel.

[klarzy]

Locktite bearing retaining compound...
effective but will make it a nightmare to remove again if the need rises..

Have you also checked the pinch bolt for the steering column position lock, if that is loose the column could rattle a bit...

[tourer]

I wonder if locktite's loose bearing solution might sort it? I can't really see how it might have play, if the nut is tight.

I think the MOT allows 25mm of free motion at the circumference of the wheel.

Nothing like 25mm, Harry. Rock not like left-right play for steering. Play is up-down at the circumference.
Only tiny amount when tightened, just concerned how loose the splines are when not tightened.
I like the idea of Loktite, Harry. Might just try that.
Trying another wheel is a good idea but I would have to purchase one and then maybe find it no better
Thanks to everyone for showing interest.:}

[tourer]

Locktite bearing retaining compound...
effective but will make it a nightmare to remove again if the need rises..

Have you also checked the pinch bolt for the steering column position lock, if that is loose the column could rattle a bit...

Yes, checked the pinch bolt. Terry of TSAUTOS adjusted that a couple of years ago.
Thanks for suggestion.

[HarryM1BYT]

Nothing like 25mm, Harry. Rock not like left-right play for steering. Play is up-down at the circumference.
Only tiny amount when tightened, just concerned how loose the splines are when not tightened.
I like the idea of Loktite, Harry. Might just try that.
Trying another wheel is a good idea but I would have to purchase one and then maybe find it no better
Thanks to everyone for showing interest.:}

Are you absolutely sure it is on the wheel to hub spline?

If you remove the kick panel above your toes (two screws) and the pull the strip of trim above that towards you, you should be able to see the steering shaft, the collapsable joint and check for play.

[tourer]

Are you absolutely sure it is on the wheel to hub spline?

If you remove the kick panel above your toes (two screws) and the pull the strip of trim above that towards you, you should be able to see the steering shaft, the collapsable joint and check for play.

Yes, difinitely loose spline. As I said earlier, I managed to fit a piece of 1.5 thou inch piece of old feeler guage between shaft and steering wheel. When nut is loosened, wheel is very sloppy and just pulls off so easily. I am used to sometimes having to tap a spline apart.

[MangoMan]

Personally I wouldn't put Locktite etc, will be a nightmare to remove if you have to!!!

I would definitely say it would be the Steering Wheel as I believe the shaft is steel and the wheel hub is alloy.
Personally I would get it seen to, the last thing you need is it to start jumping splines!! :(

[Anon3]

tourer,
if you can get over to near Toyota (Burnaston) in a couple of weeks time, you're welcome to try my current wheel or my new one, depending which is available at the time :}

I wouldn't do Loctite either.

[T-Cut]

All engineered parts have a design tolerance, a plus/minus the intended dimension. Maybe you just got a plus wheel with a minus shaft? A different wheel may well tighten up without any play at all.

TC

[seancar]

All engineered parts have a design tolerance, a plus/minus the intended dimension. Maybe you just got a plus wheel with a minus shaft? A different wheel may well tighten up without any play at all.

TC
I agree I think its been like that from new and unless you undo the bolt you would never had know. The splines must lock together ok if not the wheel would have jumped by now.
Will say I look at a couple down the yard today and one has more play than the other.

[Anon3]

All engineered parts have a design tolerance, a plus/minus the intended dimension. Maybe you just got a plus wheel with a minus shaft? A different wheel may well tighten up without any play at all.

TC

With a spline?
Even the worst case shouldn't present this imo and it should have been allowed for.
And I'm sure it was.
The Rover engineers wouldn't have missed something so straightforward.
And as has been suggested, it's unknown beforehand.

Something's not right, imo, but tourer now has the offer of a known good wheel to try :}

[seancar]

It would be worth checking another wheel on it just to see.i would think rover changed either the manufacturers of steering wheel or column thats where the size difference has come from. They probably saved 0.5p on each steering wheel changing manufacturers lol

[Anon3]

It would be worth checking another wheel on it just to see.i would think rover changed either the manufacturers of steering wheel or column thats where the size difference has come from. They probably saved 0.5p on each steering wheel changing manufacturers lol

That's fair comment.
Car companys will do anything to save a penny :}

But at the same time, the standards will always be at the top of the list.

I have 35 years history of working at car plants and associated suppliers factories and still do ;)
The quality is quite outstanding, given the volumes, from what I've seen.

The "Friday afternoon" or "Monday morning" things just don't happen anymore.

[klarzy]

That's fair comment.
Car companys will do anything to save a penny :}

But at the same time, the standards will always be at the top of the list.

I have 35 years history of working at car plants and associated suppliers factories and still do ;)
The quality is quite outstanding, given the volumes, from what I've seen.

The "Friday afternoon" or "Monday morning" things just don't happen anymore.

Could always have been a tooling glitch on the spline shaper for the male or female side... not every piece is QC checked...

[Anon3]

Could always have been a tooling glitch on the spline shaper for the male or female side... not every piece is QC checked...

Again fair comment.
But there's no such thing as a glitch, as such these days.
I'd expect a spline to undergo a "go-no go" check.

If there's a problem, the previous however many, will be pulled for double checking.
And then when any fault is corrected, the next however many, are double checked too.

You are right, in that not every part is checked.
But they've done the science, in that they know how often to check.
And they're mostly (but not always) correct, on the whole.

Not that I'm into QA.
It's just stuff I pick up from the many people I talk to :}

[T-Cut]

There was never any slop in the assembled unit, only after the clamping nut was slackened. There'll be no doubt that all the bits will be in spec, but a 'plus' with a 'minus' gives a slacker fit. Tighten it up and it's perfectly servicable. You find it all the time, no mass produced parts are nonometre precise.

Nut was very tight, needed an 18 inch breaker bar to undo.

What might that suggest? Could the alloy clamp have stretched slightly?

I reckon another wheel hub may well be a 'standard' fit and not require an 18" pry bar to tighten it up.

TC

[klarzy]

Again fair comment.
But there's no such thing as a glitch, as such these days.
I'd expect a spline to undergo a "go-no go" check.

If there's a problem, the previous however many, will be pulled for double checking.
And then when any fault is corrected, the next however many, are double checked too.

You are right, in that not every part is checked.
But they've done the science, in that they know how often to check.
And they're mostly (but not always) correct, on the whole.

Not that I'm into QA.
It's just stuff I pick up from the many people I talk to :}

Ahh the joys of sample sizing....

[klarzy]

There was never any slop in the assembled unit, only after the clamping nut was slackened. There'll be no doubt that all the bits will be in spec, but a 'plus' with a 'minus' gives a slacker fit. Tighten it up and it's perfectly servicable. You find it all the time, no mass produced parts are nonometre precise.



What might that suggest?

I reckon another wheel hub may well be a 'standard' fit and not require an 18" pry bar to it tighten up.

TC

They are normally pretty damn tight from the factory...

[Anon3]

I reckon another wheel hub may well be a 'standard' fit and not require an 18" pry bar to tighten it up.

You're right.
The standard 48 lbs/ft isn't that much and doesn't require an 18" bar to apply. Unless you're doing it all day, in the factory, where RSI will quickly become an issue.

But they can still be a dog to undo. I'm not sure what that says, apart from the fact that nuts bind over time?

I well remember Mini hub nuts being tightened to 180-200 lb/ft, but me and a rather rotund mate jumping on a two foot plus bar having no effect whatsoever :}

[tourer]

Many thanks to all for the interest and comments/replies
Special thanks to Steve (Anon3) for the offer of trying another wheel.
I will take time and consider my options.
The wheel has caused no problems over the last 10 years, and now it fits with even less play after fitting with a piece of shim.
This all started because I was searching for the cause of a vibration/rattle that has beaten myself and several professionals over the years.
I am not worried there is a safety issue. Sometimes it may be wiser to except it is what it is. Reluctant to throw money and time at swapping parts willy-nilly that look good.
As I said earlier, I will consider my options.
Once again, many thanks.

[super s]

mine has this play, if i grab it at 3 oclock and 9 oclock and can move it a bit... while on idle, the steering rattles, if i press on side it stops, so its obvious that is that movement that makes the rattle, already tight the lever adjust nut, its the same....

its becoming worst in the last year, before of that didn t notice before...

where or what should i thight?

or where is the problem?

sorry for the old thread jacking but seemed the most similar to my situation...

any advice?

[HarryM1BYT]

My guess now, is that maybe in some cases, with the mention of shims working - that the nut is tightening against the end of the shaft, rather than onto the wheel's edge. In which case, the only easy fix will be a suitable thin shim either before the wheel goes on the spline, or after under the nut.

Just to be clear - My car does not have this problem.

[super s]

ok...

i see what you are saying... its a good guess because it really feels that the problem is that the wheel bolt is a bit loose... althought i havent already tried to remove the wheel to check properly...

can you just point me wich material is that ? shims?

thanks.

[cengar]

Used to get this problem on rear axle diff couplings to overcome centre punch dots on the splines and use a stud loctite to hold not as fierce as ordinary lostite

[HarryM1BYT]

ok...

i see what you are saying... its a good guess because it really feels that the problem is that the wheel bolt is a bit loose... althought i havent already tried to remove the wheel to check properly...

can you just point me wich material is that ? shims?

thanks.

A shim, like a large washer which will fit over the spline before the wheel is fitted - thick enough to ensure the nut tightens onto the wheel boss. It would make sure the wheel is actually clamped by the nut.

It might work better, if the wheel were fitted first, then the shim/washer, then the nut.

[tourer]

Hi,
I have just noticed the resurrection of my very old thread.
To save anyone going down the wrong route, the eventual cause of the movement turned out to be play in the upper bush of the steering column, even though it had been there since the car was almost new.
I swapped the column for a new one and all play and vibrations gone. It's like driving a new car.
The new column for my RHD car was a LHD one from Rimmers for £25 + VAT which will fit. The procedure is well documented in the excellent How-To by Rich17865.
Good luck.

[super s]

Hi,
I have just noticed the resurrection of my very old thread.
To save anyone going down the wrong route, the eventual cause of the movement turned out to be play in the upper bush of the steering column, even though it had been there since the car was almost new.
I swapped the column for a new one and all play and vibrations gone. It's like driving a new car.
The new column for my RHD car was a LHD one from Rimmers for £25 + VAT which will fit. The procedure is well documented in the excellent How-To by Rich17865.
Good luck.

and that bush you refer here cannot somehow be tightened?

and do you have any exemple of it or photo where it exaqly?