Houston I have a problem.....

[Rp61973]

I purchased my CDTi Classic (61,000 miles) three weeks ago this weekend. I have been driving the car to and from work (30 miles total a day) and this week I have noted the bite on the clutch pedal getting progressively lower and some baulking when selecting first gear.

Before my journey home tonight I reasoned that I would try and bleed the master cylinder to see if it was a simple case of air in the system/and or old fluid.

By the time I arrived home tonight, I could just about select any gear with considerable difficulty. I have noticed some oily wetness behind the small, top fixing cover that holds the footrest on, but I couldn't see any obvious wetness from the master cylinder itself (admittedly not easy to see).

I am most disappointed to have been let down so early into my foray into 75 ownership, especially when the car hasn't covered interstellar mileage, but realistically am I looking at a slave and master cyl or possibly just a master cylinder, or is this fanciful thinking? Clutch felt and drove fine up to this week. I don't believe there is any fluid leak between block and box but I'll need to check for sure.

Car is now sitting on the drive - neither use nor ornament. Bah,:mad:

[planenut]

I purchased my CDTi Classic (61,000 miles) three weeks ago this weekend. I have been driving the car to and from work (30 miles total a day) and this week I have noted the bite on the clutch pedal getting progressively lower and some baulking when selecting first gear.

Before my journey home tonight I reasoned that I would try and bleed the master cylinder to see if it was a simple case of air in the system/and or old fluid.

By the time I arrived home tonight, I could just about select any gear with considerable difficulty. I have noticed some oily wetness behind the small, top fixing cover that holds the footrest on, but I couldn't see any obvious wetness from the master cylinder itself (admittedly not easy to see).

I am most disappointed to have been let down so early into my foray into 75 ownership, especially when the car hasn't covered interstellar mileage, but realistically am I looking at a slave and master cyl or possibly just a master cylinder, or is this fanciful thinking? Clutch felt and drove fine up to this week. I don't believe there is any fluid leak between block and box but I'll need to check for sure.

Car is now sitting on the drive - neither use nor ornament. Bah,:mad:

Go ahead and bleed it, then see how things are. Good luck.

[DMGRS]

I'd bleed it - I got a lot of life out of mine before it finally gave up. I wish I could say the same of it's plastic replacements!
Thankfully there's a metal Master cylinder to ease the problem:
Metal Master Cylinder (http://www.dmgrs.co.uk/collections/clutch-transmission-parts/products/rover-75-mg-zt-metal-master-cylinder-kit-all-variants-replaces-stc100146-stc105480)

They're 'fit for life', and have replaceable seals should the worst happen. :)

[Rp61973]

I would bleed it but figured that because clutch pedal quality degenerated so quickly, is it likely to do any good?

I will be guided by you guys.

Thanks. Paul

[mickjjuk]

Hi, let’s hope it’s the master it’s easier to sort out than the slave. I used an easy bleed kit, it the same top as the brake master cylinder. The fluid will be black that you get out if it has not been changed. If bleeding sorts it out long term I would consider changing it .if the slave has gone there will be fluid leaking from the drain holes in bottom of bell housing.

[DMGRS]

It did for me - I got another 3 months by bleeding. It needed a bleed every few weeks, and the interval gradually got shorter as it worsened.
Yours will have degenerated quickly because it pulled in air - with the air expelled and it bled, it'll feel nice again.

Unfortunately the clutch systems are weak on the 75/ZT, it's a shame. At least these days we can combat it, whereas when I first delved into ownership there were no 'fixes' rather than counting down to it failing again.

[Rp61973]

Thanks guys. I'll give bleeding the plastic fantastic a go this weekend, but once I am paid at the end of the month I will invest in a Tazu upgrade.:}

[DMGRS]

Thanks guys. I'll give bleeding the plastic fantastic a go this weekend, but once I am paid at the end of the month I will invest in a Tazu upgrade.:}

Good stuff - I'll have my stock by then. :)

[Kenton]

I purchased my CDTi Classic (61,000 miles) three weeks ago this weekend. I have been driving the car to and from work (30 miles total a day) and this week I have noted the bite on the clutch pedal getting progressively lower and some baulking when selecting first gear.

Before my journey home tonight I reasoned that I would try and bleed the master cylinder to see if it was a simple case of air in the system/and or old fluid.

By the time I arrived home tonight, I could just about select any gear with considerable difficulty. I have noticed some oily wetness behind the small, top fixing cover that holds the footrest on, but I couldn't see any obvious wetness from the master cylinder itself (admittedly not easy to see).

I am most disappointed to have been let down so early into my foray into 75 ownership, especially when the car hasn't covered interstellar mileage, but realistically am I looking at a slave and master cyl or possibly just a master cylinder, or is this fanciful thinking? Clutch felt and drove fine up to this week. I don't believe there is any fluid leak between block and box but I'll need to check for sure.

Car is now sitting on the drive - neither use nor ornament. Bah,:mad:

Strange.... but if you rub the carpet around the foot rest with your fingers and gave a quick wiff, you will know if the cylinder is leaking. I recently bleed a clutch and it took me about about an hour to keep pumping, using the easy bleed system, and about 2 litres of fluid, before I was happy. customer is totally satisfied, with the 'new' clutch, and I was gob smacked as to how much c*ap came out. good luck :smilie_re::shrug:

[Rp61973]

I have taken a good shufty up in the pedal box tonight using a torch. I can't see any leakage from the cylinder. I don't know from where the footrest fixing cover has accumulated its pool of liquid.

I also can't see any evidence of slave cylinder leakage underneath. There is a 'dirty patch' on the underside of the plastic engine undertray, on the nearside, but this certainly doesn't look wet or fresh.

All I can do is bleed the cylinder with plenty of fresh fluid and keep my fingers crossed. Reservoir pot is a bitch to get the lid off - already tried that one. I reckon I will need to remove the dash trim under the steering wheel.

[planenut]

All I can do is bleed the cylinder with plenty of fresh fluid and keep my fingers crossed. Reservoir pot is a bitch to get the lid off - already tried that one. I reckon I will need to remove the dash trim under the steering wheel.

My "clutch" failed on me when I was 80 miles from home, and caused me to abandon a short holiday. I thought "the clutch cable had broken" by the drop in the pedal. After a quote of £300 for recovery (I'm with autoaid, so you pay up front, then claim) and I managed to get it home without the clutch.

Bled it and that was four years ago, have done it about five times. Once done, it's a doddle, learning from this site, and don't forget the "condom".

Here's the "how-to". http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=156

[dadragon]

My wife had a 1.8 manual about 5 years back and she had your symptoms to the letter. I didn't want to invest in the metal upgrade kit until i was sure I could solve the problem with just the master,as I had a spare master I fitted it and bled it at the union where the pipes meet, the pedal was rock solid and all gears selected brilliantly.Left the car over night and tried the pedal next morning, straight to the floor!!!. Checked under the nearside and there was fresh fluid running down the road, I guess the slave was also on it's way and the increased pressure made it give up. I really hope you don't have my luck as this was the final straw that made me invest in an auto. the moral is make sure you check the slave before making an investment in new parts. if you plan to keep the car regardless then deffo invest in the metal replacement and buy a new slave then your future is secured. Good luck.
Regards DaDragon

[DMGRS]

Just echoing the post above, a new clutch, Slave and Master isn't that expensive anymore either - it's just the labour that's the killer.
Expect a labour bill of between £150 and £200 to replace the lot.

[dadragon]

DMGRS, yes mate, bang on there, the prices today for parts compared to even 5 years ago has improved dramatically, it helps when your good self supplies parts at a competitive price as well. :bowdown:
Regards DaDragon

[Rp61973]

Ooerr! sounds like a bleed of the plastic fantastic is the way forward and if it doesn't work then go for the metal kit and if that doesn't work then I would need to invite a new clutch and slave cylinder to the party.

The master is within my capabilities, facilities at home and time constraints, but a clutch and slave would need to be entrusted to someone with sufficient knowledge, time and facilities. Does anyone know a reputable company in Essex or thereabouts who could do the work without feeling the need to pull my pants down?

[Rp61973]

I purchased 500ml of Dot 4 fluid this morning and one of those old fashioned oil cans with a flexible spout. After lining the footwell with plastic bags and removing the trim panel below the steering wheel, I set about the task of removing the reservoir lid on the clutch master cylinder, above the pedal cluster.

I managed to get the lid to turn by giving one of the protruding fins on the lid a gentle tap with a large flat bladed screwdriver, there was no way I could get my hand on it and twist it sufficiently hard to budge it. After loosening the lid and removing it between thumb and two fingers, I extracted the 'condom' which is sealed and cut the bottom off it to enable the reservoir to be topped up whilst retaining the lid seal.

Around 50 squirts of the trusty oil can filled the reservoir with Dot 4. I then placed a one way valve bleed hose over the nipple, dropped the valve into a scrap fruit juice bottle, slackened the nipple and bled away.

The old fluid was filthy, which was a relief as it suggested the system hadn't been bled recently by the previous owner.

I now have a mid pedal bite point and can select all gears smoothly. I just hope it lasts!

I also changed my broken nearside mirror today and fitted the chrome shells. I also diagnosed a faulty 3AW ignition relay and oil pressure sensor on the V8 P6.

All in all a very productive rovering day indeed.

I would like to say a big thank you to all those who responded on this thread; your advice has been invaluable! I am now mobile once again! :driving::driving:

[planenut]

I now have a mid pedal bite point and can select all gears smoothly. I just hope it lasts!

I also changed my broken nearside mirror today and fitted the chrome shells. I also diagnosed a faulty 3AW ignition relay and oil pressure sensor on the V8 P6.:

Well done, now get some germoline on those scratches on the hands.

[Rp61973]

Well done, now get some germoline on those scratches on the hands.

You're not kidding. The number of flesh tearing protrusions up in the pedal box is a testament to the design of this area of the car. It is almost as if Rover actively wanted to prevent people from maintaining their product.

Next job today - plenum check!

[Trevor1975]

Check out Andy willi on here, he has a bespoke machined master cylinder and he fits them too...

[DMGRS]

Glad it went well, fingers crossed that's it for a while. :D

[andy willi]

if you need help just call me i can sort all clutches


andy

[Rp61973]

Well after getting fed up with twice weekly bleeds, Andy is booked to come down to sunny Chelmsford on 24th August. There is no evidence of a master cylinder leak. It is suspected the slave is on its way out; the clutch pedal is pretty stiff to operate.

I am looking forward to getting the old girl leak free and finally reinstating the trim panel below the steering wheel which I have left off to reduce dismantling for the twice weekly bleed.

[NigelOBB]

Hope you get things sorted.. Paul.

[Rp61973]

Just shy of 4 years since the clutch and slave replacement I seem to be back to square one again, with the bite point around 1" from the floor on the pedal.

The master doesn't appear to be leaking. I had recently sprung a diesel leak from the non return valve on the low pressure side, so with all the diesel sitting in the undertray it is hard to see if the slave is leaking again. I have dipped the pot on the master and it is dry.

I will need to bleed the system to ensure I keep the car on the road, but I sadly suspect another clutch and slave is on the cards. If so I will get the master replaced at the same time in case worn flakes of rubber from the master have been contaminating the slave.

Anyone had a new slave/clutch take an earlier bath?

[EastPete]

Just shy of 4 years since the clutch and slave replacement I seem to be back to square one again, with the bite point around 1" from the floor on the pedal.

The master doesn't appear to be leaking. I had recently sprung a diesel leak from the non return valve on the low pressure side, so with all the diesel sitting in the undertray it is hard to see if the slave is leaking again. I have dipped the pot on the master and it is dry.

I will need to bleed the system to ensure I keep the car on the road, but I sadly suspect another clutch and slave is on the cards. If so I will get the master replaced at the same time in case worn flakes of rubber from the master have been contaminating the slave.

Anyone had a new slave/clutch take an earlier bath?

If just the slave and clutch was replaced 4 years ago, the system should have been flushed through first to avoid debris from the master contaminating the new slave. Do you know if this was done ? Do you know what make of clutch parts were fitted ?

You are right to consider replacing the master this time round so that you end up with clean system that should last for years. A lot of the clutch issues after work is done on 75/ZTs is down to poor fitting technique and/or poor quality parts. There has been much discussion of these issues on the forum over the years. I think the current consensus is that to get a good quality clutch change, you should use the LUK RepSet Pro clutch kit, or the Borg and Beck clutch kit with an LUK or AP/Delphi slave cylinder. The metal slaves have some issues, so have some doubts hanging over them. For the master, I would recommend only a genuine AP/Rover master - this costs 150 pounds or so in RHD form, but you can get an LHD one for about 50 pounds and swap the pipework over. Regarding fitting technique, the subframe must be removed to allow proper access to the gearbox/clutch assembly, with proper cleaning/alignment of the bellhousing/clutch assembly.

Keep us updated

Pete

[Rp61973]

Thanks Pete. I was changing fluid twice weekly up to three times a week immediately prior to the last slave cylinder and clutch change so the fluid would have been ok.

I don't recall the parts fitted; these were supplied and fitted together. All has been good for almost 4 years and just over 20,000 miles. I just hope the next installation can outlast this one!

[Hantsdave]

As Pete says I recon its old debris, even regular flushing can miss the crud. Of course its possible that it's simply fresh deterioration of the master seal.
As I type this my cdti tourer is chocked up as I'm in the middle of dropping the box to replace the slave and master. I've got an almost full history of the car and it looks like the master is original - 218,000 miles 04 plate.

I'd guess that your clutch plate is ok, just the cylinders kernacked.

I'm glad to see that after 4 years you've stuck with the car.

[Rp61973]

Hi Dave,

I will want the clutch and driven plate replaced as well. OK it is only 4 years old but I figured it best to change all components given the labour cost is the main element of the total job cost.

The clutch always has had a slight judder on bite in first gear so it might be an opportunity to put this right at the same time.

I just need to find someone in Essex who won't lift my leg cost-wise and will supply the parts Pete lists above.

[EastPete]

Hi Dave,

I will want the clutch and driven plate replaced as well. OK it is only 4 years old but I figured it best to change all components given the labour cost is the main element of the total job cost.

The clutch always has had a slight judder on bite in first gear so it might be an opportunity to put this right at the same time.

I just need to find someone in Essex who won't lift my leg cost-wise and will supply the parts Pete lists above.

If you can get the car to Milton Keynes, I am sure PhilT4 will sort it for you, for a reasonable price, with the job done properly.

There was an MG Rover specialist on the outskirts of Basildon - Kevin (can't remember his surname), who did some work on my old 75 when my sister-in-law had it, but I cannot find his details.

Pete

[first-things-first]

If you can get the car to Milton Keynes, I am sure PhilT4 will sort it for you, for a reasonable price, with the job done properly.

There was an MG Rover specialist on the outskirts of Basildon - Kevin (can't remember his surname), who did some work on my old 75 when my sister-in-law had it, but I cannot find his details.

Pete

Hi Pete / OP

Kevin is at Wickford. Thoroughly recommended. Old school mechanic. Knows these cars inside and out. http://mgroverrepaircentre.co.uk/contacts.html. He'll fit any parts you give him and knows the proper parts to use with experience.

Cheers

Andrew

[Rp61973]

Hi Pete / OP

Kevin is at Wickford. Thoroughly recommended. Old school mechanic. Knows these cars inside and out. http://mgroverrepaircentre.co.uk/contacts.html. He'll fit any parts you give him and knows the proper parts to use with experience.

Cheers

Andrew

Thanks; I will ask him to provide a quote.

[Rp61973]

Well I have bled the system tonight by torchlight. I have deliberately omitted the condom and filled the pot to the top to hopefully maximise the period until the next bleed.

The pedal feels spot on, the bite is about halfway. I wonder how long it will last?

[Rp61973]

Ha ha, not long - that is how long!

Lost pedal yesterday morning but it miraculously returned after a few pumps. Short journey yesterday was fine. Went to take JR to school this morning and the pedal was totally limp. No number of pushes would remedy this.

There is a big pool of fluid leaking from the master, so I suspect it has given way. I have a LHD plastic master from DMGRS and have started work on the car tonight.

I have read threads about changing the pipe in situ, but that looks a fiddle. OK if you have small hands, which I don't. Probably better disconnecting the hose in the engine bay, partially pulling the master and hose clear into the footwell, removing the split pin, knocking out rolly and then changing over the master there. What is the consensus?

[Mike Noc]

The big pool of fluid is because you didn't fit the condom. ;)

There is a vent hole in the cap of the master cylinder, and the condom stops fluid leaking out when the clutch pedal is depressed.

[Rp61973]

No Mike, this has just started to leak. The condom was removed months ago. This is more fluid than would travel via the pinhole vent.

Besides, the absence of condom wouldn't result in sufficient fluid to be ejected from the system to depressurise it.

[Mike Noc]

Ah I see. Fill the reservoir up to the top though and, without the condom it will leak out, but as you say not enough to cause low level problems.

[Avulon]

Ha ha, not long - that is how long!




1st of May to 6th November?
May, June, July, August, September

5 Months - not bad.

[Rp61973]

1st of May to 6th November?
May, June, July, August, September

5 Months - not bad.

It could have been worse (days or weeks) but not good by any stretch, especially when I do rely on the reliability of the car.

[Avulon]

It could have been worse (days or weeks) but not good by any stretch, especially when I do rely on the reliability of the car.


Sorry, I'll put that in context.
Faulty but continuing to work for five months before complete failure - not bad. You've had 5 months to tackle fixing it properly... Or did you expect it to just keep going forever despite it leaking?

[Rp61973]

Sorry, I'll put that in context.
Faulty but continuing to work for five months before complete failure - not bad. You've had 5 months to tackle fixing it properly... Or did you expect it to just keep going forever despite it leaking?

No signs on any leakage 5 months ago, so it wasn't clear there was any failure. I bled the system out back in May and it has been fine; no suggestion of failure. I put it down to the fluid degrading (it is hygroscopic).

The fluid around the pedal area has only just appeared.

[Rp61973]

I managed to change the master cylinder yesterday with one of the LHD ones I bought from DMGRS. If you are a tall and well-built person like me, I would throughly recommend disconnecting the hydraulic connector in the engine bay so you can pull the old cylinder into the footwell and work on disconnecting it there. Otherwise you would need twelve inch long, thin, double-jointed digits!

It wasn't too much of a hard job. The trickiest bit by far was accessing the bolts holding the master cylinder - I achieved this with a slim 1/4" wrench and 8mm socket. Apart from that, quite straightforward despite the poor access. I m not sure how you could pull out the split pin from the HP hose, knock out the roll pin, remove the cylinder, replace with the new one and reverse the process without splitting the connector in the engine bay. The split pin of the old cylinder had corroded slightly and needed some serious pulling and twisting with pliers to remove it.

I took the opportunity to clean the clutch pedal pivot bush (top hat) and liberally grease it with some silicon grease. After bleeding the clutch action is smoother than it has ever been. The bite point is a nice way up the pedal.

Fingers crossed it stays like this for a while. If it doesn't, I will know that the slave is starting to weep and I will need to ask the nice Mr Willi to visit for an overhaul.

Now, just rear brakes, a brake bleed and a full service to do...

[bl52krz]

Your last paragraph:- better if you do. Much better access.

[HarryM1BYT]

I m not sure how you could pull out the split pin from the HP hose, knock out the roll pin, remove the cylinder, replace with the new one and reverse the process without splitting the connector in the engine bay.


That is very easy to do. You just release the pushrod and unbolt the master from the bulkhead. If you then grease the plastic pipe at the other side of the bulkhead, you can then pull the master cylinder back towards you - pipe sliding easily through the rubber sealing grommets.


A thin nail with a flat end, can then be used to tap the roll pin out and release the pipe from the master cylinder. Much easier than struggling to remove master plus its pipe.

[Rp61973]

I couldn't see there was that much slack on the hydraulic hose to pull the cylinder clear of the area directly under the pedals without uncoupling the hydraulic connector; two or three inches at best. The hydraulic connector takes seconds to uncouple.

You can then pull the master with hose attached into the drivers footwell and then change it over there. Piece of cake.