Battery drain?

[Schotten]

Been having some problems re non starting diesel Connie. I don't use the car that much, often sitting for a week without moving, but a fully charged battery in good condition should really hold its charge, so I've done the battery drain test on Harry's How To thread. As it's a bit chilly today only did this initial test before I got jump start (then bought a new charger from Lidl £13.99 and first impressions is that it looks pretty good...). If my amp meter is correct and I used it properly, at complete rest with nothing running at all (waited for 30 mins to make sure, boy was it cold!), setting my meter at '200u Amp' the reading was fluctuating constantly between 44.4 uA and 49.8 uA (sorry for using 'u' as keyboard doesn't have the correct symbol, it's the nearest to it!). Harry's thread would suggest this is way too high. I have sat-nav mk3, and it seem to work ok and was completely off, no red light and no fan. Yes I have a FBH, but it wasn't working despite the cold. Could the TV or BM24 radio module be faulty? I'm waiting for the battery to charge up more before taking it to local garage for discharge test, it must be between 5-6 years old I think, as its stamped 'Charge before 10/10'. Any ideas?

[FrenchMike]

Been having some problems re non starting diesel Connie. I don't use the car that much, often sitting for a week without moving, but a fully charged battery in good condition should really hold its charge, so I've done the battery drain test on Harry's How To thread. As it's a bit chilly today only did this initial test before I got jump start (then bought a new charger from Lidl £13.99 and first impressions is that it looks pretty good...). If my amp meter is correct and I used it properly, at complete rest with nothing running at all (waited for 30 mins to make sure, boy was it cold!), setting my meter at '200u Amp' the reading was fluctuating constantly between 44.4 uA and 49.8 uA (sorry for using 'u' as keyboard doesn't have the correct symbol, it's the nearest to it!). Harry's thread would suggest this is way too high. I have sat-nav mk3, and it seem to work ok and was completely off, no red light and no fan. Yes I have a FBH, but it wasn't working despite the cold. Could the TV or BM24 radio module be faulty? I'm waiting for the battery to charge up more before taking it to local garage for discharge test, it must be between 5-6 years old I think, as its stamped 'Charge before 10/10'. Any ideas?

Hi,

50 µA is perfectly correct to me
See battery side ...:}

Mike

[Schotten]

Duh! Will go read battery!

At rest after 30 mins or so with doors closed and locked with the remote my multimeter is reading 0.08-0.09 amps fluctuating to 0.10 for a few seconds then back to 0.08-0.09 (the alarm?) and continues to do this. Is this enough to drain the battery over, say a week, from fully charged (on a battery charger for 24 hrs)?

Have you ever noticed the attention cars demand is in direct correlation with outside temp and/or bank balance....both in the negative!!!!

[FrenchMike]

Duh! Will go read battery!

At rest after 30 mins or so with doors closed and locked with the remote my multimeter is reading 0.08-0.09 amps fluctuating to 0.10 for a few seconds then back to 0.08-0.09 (the alarm?) and continues to do this. Is this enough to drain the battery over, say a week, from fully charged (on a battery charger for 24 hrs)?

Have you ever noticed the attention cars demand is in direct correlation with outside temp and/or bank balance....both in the negative!!!!

Don't forget battery capacity decreases dramatically with low temperature .

simple calculation :

0.1 A x24 = 2.4Ah per day so for one week 2.4x7=16.8 Ah

nothing important for a healthy 60 Ah battery ...

[Schotten]

I wonder if my battery is showing signs of giving up the ghost, it's on charge now and will be for next 24hrs at least or until the charger reads full. Once done I'll give it a go, but me thinks a new battery is on the cards. I think it's a 76 Ah battery so really should be able to leave car for 2 weeks over Christmas/New Year and come back and start it! Thanks for the help :}

[FrenchMike]

I wonder if my battery is showing signs of giving up the ghost, it's on charge now and will be for next 24hrs at least or until the charger reads full. Once done I'll give it a go, but me thinks a new battery is on the cards. I think it's a 76 Ah battery so really should be able to leave car for 2 weeks over Christmas/New Year and come back and start it! Thanks for the help :}

A little chart about battery voltages :

44207

Cheers

Mike

[SD1too]

16.8 Ah ... nothing important for a healthy 60 Ah battery ...
Scott,

Mike is correct, but very few car batteries are fully charged.

You're doing the right thing here:
... it's on charge now and will be for next 24 hrs at least or until the charger reads full.
Ignore any "full" indication and leave it for the full 24 hours, longer if possible.
I think it's a 76 Ah battery so really should be able to leave car for 2 weeks over Christmas/New Year and come back and start it!
You'd be surprised Scott! :eek: It depends what the level of charge was at the beginning of those 2 weeks. If it was already partially depleted, which in the winter is highly probable, it could easily fail to turn the starter. After two 80 mile journeys on A roads and motorway my car lay unused for six weeks over Christmas. The battery was then so flat that the central locking wouldn't work. The battery read 5.2 volts off load! :eek: :getmecoat: I was convinced it was "a goner" but I took my own advice and charged it for about 30 hours. It's absolutely fine now. So have faith Scott! :D

Simon

[FrenchMike]

Off course Simon,it's why i give the chart showing Voltage versus charge :}

[p2roverman]

I've been experiencing the same problem, too flat after several days to turn the engine. I was going to ask on the forum but now I know it's to be expected from an older battery.
However, the problem remains that even with a sound battery you can't leave the car at the airport while away for a 2-week holiday. So what's the solution? - which fuses do you pull to prevent excessive battery drain?

[SD1too]

But Mike, I don't see my 5.2 volts on your chart at all. ;)

Simon

[SD1too]

... now I know it's to be expected from an older battery.
It's not necessarily linked to age Mike, more to how the car is used. If journeys are short, there will be insufficient time to recharge and the battery will suffer. It can happen to a brand new battery too. :}
However, the problem remains that even with a sound battery you can't leave the car at the airport while away for a 2-week holiday.
Yes you can, if it's fully charged on arrival.

Simon

[FrenchMike]

But Mike, I don't see my 5.2 volts on your chart at all. ;)

Simon

At 5 volt it's no more a battery :D

:new_year:

[COLVERT]

I've been experiencing the same problem, too flat after several days to turn the engine. I was going to ask on the forum but now I know it's to be expected from an older battery.
However, the problem remains that even with a sound battery you can't leave the car at the airport while away for a 2-week holiday. So what's the solution? - which fuses do you pull to prevent excessive battery drain?
Not necessarily expected from an old battery.
During the winter, if not used often, a battery NEEDS to be put on a charger.

See Mikes battery chart above for battery voltages.

I leave my own car for quite some time not used. However I have a solar charger ( Which also works in bright light. ) that keeps my battery topped up by supplying slightly more than the car electronics use with the car at rest.
ie. A fully charged battery stays fully charged.

[Schotten]

Well I'm going to leave the battery off and charging until Saturday, that's 4 days of charging! Now that really ought to make sure the battery is fully charged. Admittedly if I just use it for short journeys the battery will weaken, but I'm thinking I might try and leave it for as many days as possible after Saturday on the car to see what the state of the battery will be then. I'm just concerned I've got a parasitic drain somewhere, if so I can address that, or I have I just accept this how our cars work? Interestingly BMWs of the same age with the same engine take a larger capacity battery than ours, a built in weakness in our diesels then?

[Mike Noc]

No not at all. The only times I have had any problems with the batteries is when they have come near to the end of their useful life. :D

[chrissyboy]

i agree with mike a batterys life is around 4 years when a battery gets to 4 years old just change it so theres never any times you get caught with a non starting car .the cells start to die after around 3 and half years so by the the battery then will start to struggle to hold a charge .pointless all this testing and charging get a new one and be ok for the next 4 years .

[Polly]

Unless your charger is a good quality "smart" charger, I wouldn't leave it on charge for 4 days. It is quite easy to overcharge a battery too. On the other hand, some "trickle" chargers will never fully charge a battery, no mater how long you leave it on.

[SD1too]

Well I'm going to leave the battery off and charging until Saturday, that's 4 days of charging!
Scott,

As Polly correctly says, this is fine if you have a 'smart' charger which will automatically switch to trickle mode once the main charge is complete, but don't leave it for 4 days if you have an old fashioned basic charger.
I'm thinking I might try and leave it for as many days as possible after Saturday on the car to see what the state of the battery will be then.
That's a good idea, but your earlier measured current drain of about 90 mA indicates that all's well.
I'm just concerned I've got a parasitic drain somewhere .. have I just accept this how our cars work?
Computerised ECUs, alarms etc. draw a continuous small current. That's not a problem if the battery is fully charged, but few are, particularly during the winter. People tend to believe that a battery should be able to put up with any amount of abuse, hence the comments that they "die" after, for example, 4 years. You will find owners with serviceable batteries much older than that, and this is because it's the way they are treated that makes the difference. Make sure that your battery is always fully charged and it will serve you well, as Colvert says.
Interestingly BMWs of the same age with the same engine take a larger capacity battery than ours, a built in weakness in our diesels then?
It's not a bad idea to fit the largest capacity battery which will physically fit into the space available. But remember that you will only benefit from that increased capacity if you keep the thing fully charged! To achieve that, you have to think about how you use the car and it's electrical accessories.

Simon

[chrissyboy]

Scott,

As Polly correctly says, this is fine if you have a 'smart' charger which will automatically switch to trickle mode once the main charge is complete, but don't leave it for 4 days if you have an old fashioned basic charger.

That's a good idea, but your earlier measured current drain of about 90 mA indicates that all's well.

Computerised ECUs, alarms etc. draw a continuous small current. That's not a problem if the battery is fully charged, but few are, particularly during the winter. People tend to believe that a battery should be able to put up with any amount of abuse, hence the comments that they "die" after, for example, 4 years. You will find owners with serviceable batteries much older than that, and this is because it's the way they are treated that makes the difference. Make sure that your battery is always fully charged and it will serve you well, as Colvert says.

It's not a bad idea to fit the largest capacity battery which will physically fit into the space available. But remember that you will only benefit from that increased capacity if you keep the thing fully charged! To achieve that, you have to think about how you use the car and it's electrical accessories.

Simon
no thats not what i mean 1 you dont abuse your batery or any part of your car for that .2 charging is forcing electric into the battery sodamage is a result 3BATTERYS are DeSIGNED TO LAST 4 YEARS TROULBLE FREE .

any good garage will check it charge it and tell you next time its flat then battery needs to be replaced ... also driving with a duff battery WILL ****** up the alternator fact

a little guide for all those that want to test etc etc their batterys .


http://carbatteryonline.net/car-battery-life.html

[Schotten]

The battery is on a 'smart' charger, showing now fully charged and 12.9v, it has switched over to trickle charging.

I've a solar battery charger bought from Maplins a couple of years back. Not really sure how good it is, must test it to see its output and see if it's greater than the drain on my car at idle.

[COLVERT]

The battery is on a 'smart' charger, showing now fully charged and 12.9v, it has switched over to trickle charging.

I've a solar battery charger bought from Maplins a couple of years back. Not really sure how good it is, must test it to see its output and see if it's greater than the drain on my car at idle.

You now have to turn off the charger and check your battery voltage THE NEXT DAY before you start your car. ( Use a multi meter. )

This will give you a true reading of its capacity.

Look at FRENCH MIKE's chart. OK ??

[COLVERT]

no thats not what i mean 1 you dont abuse your batery or any part of your car for that .2 charging is forcing electric into the battery sodamage is a result 3BATTERYS are DeSIGNED TO LAST 4 YEARS TROULBLE FREE .

any good garage will check it charge it and tell you next time its flat then battery needs to be replaced ... also driving with a duff battery WILL ****** up the alternator fact

a little guide for all those that want to test etc etc their batterys .


http://carbatteryonline.net/car-battery-life.html

That is a very vague AMERICAN guide you've quoted in your post and not very accurate either.

Go and have a look in the thread on the main page here that is titled REALLY REALLY USEFUL information. Have a read of my two posts. It will give you something accurate to quote in future.###


Best wishes for the new year.


Live long and prosper.---:bowdown:




Colvert. :cool:

[chrissyboy]

That is a very vague AMERICAN guide you've quoted in your post and not very accurate either.

Go and have a look in the thread on the main page here that is titled REALLY REALLY USEFUL information. Have a read of my




Colvert. :cool:

so are you saying that a battery that wont hold its charge wont damage the alternator ?look back on all threads re flat battery your see they ended up replacing the alternator further down the line and all new batterys they was putting on was ruined by the damaged alternator .not vague it states what im saying that over time the battery does get harmed ,and a batterys life IS around 4 years before it starts playing up .in the 40 years i have owed a car i have never had a problem with a battery being flat .maybe its the way i look after my cars i dont know .if battery starts to behave in a diffrent way then that is a sign it is on its way out ,why not just change it there and then instead of repeating the test day after day .each to their own i guess but one thing stands out ,if im wrong how come im the one that never has any trouble ???

[SD1too]

... if battery starts to behave in a diffrent way then that is a sign it is on its way out ,why not just change it there and then instead of repeating the test day after day ..
Because Chris, using your brains is a better tool than just throwing money at a problem in ignorance. :D

Glad to hear, by the way, that you've never had a flat battery, not even after the 4 year life you're quoting. :getmecoat:

Simon

[Polly]

A faulty alternator might well damage a battery, however it's quite unlikely a faulty battery would damage the alternator, unless battery went open circuit which would be very unusual. Unfortunately I don't share your trouble free experience, because I always have at least three cars on the road, few of them are really used daily. If I was to be replacing batteries every time they get low, I would replacing one every six months. Indeed my 260 battery is less than six months old, but the car was last used just before Christmas (Aberdeen to Manchester and back) but earlier this week it was completely flat.

[chrissyboy]

Because Chris, using your brains is a better tool than just throwing money at a problem in ignorance. :D

Glad to hear, by the way, that you've never had a flat battery, not even after the 4 year life you're quoting. :getmecoat:

Simon

simon using my brains in exactly what i do .of course i do the checks then see how old the battery is if its 4 or more years old i change it .using my brains i do the job once and i have never had a repeat of a problem .what i do when i buy a car is a full service a belt and water pump coolant change for the blue and if that red muck in in there that is straight out the car change tyres if i think there a bit low and balance and tracking. i then know that all the above have been done so i dont get caught out down the line .even with my 18t i was reading all sorts of stuff on here re them so had my guys do the head gasket using only a gasket none of the other stuff they say to use .result a flying 18t that was megga fast oh and the torque was a little more to the head .anyway as i said before been doing cars for 30 plus years and never had one repeat a problem of battery going flat as i would change the battery and not waste my time keep doing the same thing over and over again .do know if you remember but as a test i flushed used steel seal on a rover 25 about 4 years ago and its still running and not a sign of the hgf anymore .so yes it works and it dont clog up the matrix .i would suggest it is the gunk in the system that does that not the steel seal

[Schotten]

Update:
Battery charged on smart charger for approx. 24 hrs before switching over to trickle for another 12 hrs then disconnected. Meter reading 12.9 volts, left off the car, 12 hrs later 12.83V, 24 hrs later still off car and it now reads 12.76V. I don't think that's healthy? If that is its discharge while left off car, then the small drain whilst connected to the car after a few days of non use will probably be enough to not start the car in a cold frosty morning. New battery will be ordered!

[SD1too]

... it now reads 12.76V. I don't think that's healthy?
Wait! It's very healthy. See Mike's chart in post number 6.
If that is its discharge while left off car ...
It's not a discharge! After charging externally, the battery terminal voltage will be artificially high. That's why Colvert told you to wait a day before taking measurements (see post 21).

Scott; take a deep breath, read past posts carefully, and above all, keep your wallet closed! Your battery is fine. Do not waste your money on a new one! :D

Simon

[Schotten]

Ok Simon! You've just saved me £70!! If you think my battery is ok then I'll bow to your knowledge!:bowdown: seriously if you reckon it's ok then fine. I'm looking for advice from the forum and I'll take it!! Think I should perform a crank test tomorrow (knockout the pumps with the fuel cut off switch and then crank over with multimeter on battery terminals and see what happens?) or just take the helpful advice and charge it up once a month if the car is not driven very much? :}

[SD1too]

Think I should perform a crank test tomorrow (knockout the pumps with the fuel cut off switch and then crank over with multimeter on battery terminals and see what happens?)
By all means do that Scott. It's a good test. During cranking the voltage will drop quite a bit. Don't panic! That's perfectly normal.
... or just take the helpful advice and charge it up once a month if the car is not driven very much? :}
Do that as well. It's exactly what I do with my SD1 which only comes out of the garage when I want to put a really big grin on my face. ;)

Simon

[chrissyboy]

By all means do that Scott. It's a good test. During cranking the voltage will drop quite a bit. Don't panic! That's perfectly normal.

Do that as well. It's exactly what I do with my SD1 which only comes out of the garage when I want to put a really big grin on my face. ;)

Simon

will be good to see what his current if when cranking i say it will be below 9 volts which would then confirn he needs a new battery

[Schotten]

Well guys here goes: the results!

Battery 12.76 V before connecting to car, it dropped a little as soon at was connected.
Took out the fuel pump fuse and got a helpful assistant (wife) to crank over for approx 15 seconds.
During test the battery dropped below 9 V. It did fluctuate a bit but downwards, maybe to approx 8.5V possibly less maybe 8.2ish
Stopped test and battery read 12.1 V.
Put fuse back in a tried to start car, click click flash flash, won't start.
Battery back off and in garage, checked reading again, 12.5V.
Now back on charge till tomorrow morning.
Now then, battery poorly or what? Answers greatly appreciated!!!:}

[chrissyboy]

Well guys here goes: the results!

Battery 12.76 V before connecting to car, it dropped a little as soon at was connected.
Took out the fuel pump fuse and got a helpful assistant (wife) to crank over for approx 15 seconds.
During test the battery dropped below 9 V. It did fluctuate a bit but downwards, maybe to approx 8.5V possibly less maybe 8.2ish
Stopped test and battery read 12.1 V.
Put fuse back in a tried to start car, click click flash flash, won't start.
Battery back off and in garage, checked reading again, 12.5V.
Now back on charge till tomorrow morning.
Now then, battery poorly or what? Answers greatly appreciated!!!:}

you need a new battery is no good for cranking amps it should of dropped to 9 or 10 volts 8 is just not good enough again you need a new battery .

[COLVERT]

Well guys here goes: the results!

Battery 12.76 V before connecting to car, it dropped a little as soon at was connected.
Took out the fuel pump fuse and got a helpful assistant (wife) to crank over for approx 15 seconds.
During test the battery dropped below 9 V. It did fluctuate a bit but downwards, maybe to approx 8.5V possibly less maybe 8.2ish
Stopped test and battery read 12.1 V.
Put fuse back in a tried to start car, click click flash flash, won't start.
Battery back off and in garage, checked reading again, 12.5V.
Now back on charge till tomorrow morning.
Now then, battery poorly or what? Answers greatly appreciated!!!:}

What you've done with your battery is what a garage would call a DROP TEST.

A drop test will actually show the CAPACITY of your battery. ( How much electricity it contains,. )

Your voltages show that your battery will take a charge. However your test has highlighted the fact that the charge shown is Only from the parts of the plates that remain fully active. The actual capacity has diminished due to the fact you have part of the plates with compacted lead sulphate on their surfaces. This part of the plate Won't take a charge.

If your car is normally a good starter the battery will go on for quite a few months like this, especially in the summer. however it is getting close to the end of its life.

Start planning on a new one soon.

The thing that gives away the fact that it has Low capacity is that it appears to charge up very quickly from being flat. This is because only a part of each plate is taking a charge.

A drop test will quickly show this. The only way to discover this yourself is from the start of charging to test the battery every few hours.

If after a rest from, say, 6 hours charging it is showing a high voltage the plates are in a poor condition. The battery is near the end of its useful life.




Colvert.---:new_year:

[SD1too]

Now then, battery poorly or what? Answers greatly appreciated!!!:}
Yes Scott, you have proved that it's poorly which is what is important. As Colvert has explained, the voltages showed that it was responding to charging in some fashion, but only the heavy discharge test could tell us for sure whether it was serviceable or not. Bad luck.

Simon

[rontug]

Have found your thread and advice from others very helpfull,:} Because I and a few other peole I have spoke to, have the same problem.My car Is used for pleasure.short distances and infrequent use. My battery is a Lucas and less than 18months old.after spending alot of time doing the tests mentioned on the forum my conclusion is I now connect my battery to a smart charger if my car is to be left standing for more than a couple of days.look forward to your conclusions.

[LakAttack]

I had a battery drain in my Rover 75 Diesel Connoisseur recently. My mechanic told me I had a drain coming from my radio. I had a very similar problem to you. It would start if I jump started my car etc. I had to change the Alternator and battery, took out the fuse for my radio and now my car is working fine. Remember the reading should always read 0.00! If it doesn't then you still have a drain! Hope this was helpful...

Bad thing for me is now I have no radio...Not to worry I have my iPad connected to my air vent to keep me company!

[chrissyboy]

so i guess that makes me right then.:D

[Polly]

so i guess that makes me right then.:D


On the basis that there was a 50/50 chance you would be, yes you were right, but then I have known batteries to last 10 years, which means you may have thrown away a perfectly serviceable battery if it had been replaced simply on the 4 year principle.
In fact I still have the factory installed battery from my wife's 2002 ZR, it's no longer in daily use, but with just an occasional charge it is still a useful standby and will start a car in an emergency.

[Schotten]

Well a big thanks everyone a new battery will be winging its way to me later this week. Going for a Varta silver dynamic from Justcarbaterries £68 delivered, and I'll maybe look after it a bit better! :} Now a quick question should I put it on charge when I get it, or should assume it's 100% charged from the factory?

[Polly]

Well a big thanks everyone a new battery will be winging its way to me later this week. Going for a Varta silver dynamic from Justcarbaterries £68 delivered, and I'll maybe look after it a bit better! :} Now a quick question should I put it on charge when I get it, or should assume it's 100% charged from the factory?


Put it on charge, you will most likely find that it's quite low.

[SD1too]

... should I put it on charge when I get it ...
Yes. It will do no harm and is a sensible precaution since you do not know when it was last charged.

Simon

[Schotten]

Ok thanks guys! :}

[COLVERT]

so i guess that makes me right then.:D

My original battery lasted 8 1/2 years.

Because, in my opinion, I knew how to look after it. They do need maintenance however most people Fit and Forget.

Just like tyres. Correct pressure and their life is doubled. A battery gets neglected cos you can't see what's happening inside.

You could be right but you are generally only talking about folk who don't know anything about batteries.

For the ones that have some knowledge you are only asking them to spend their money without needing to.

:new_year:

[chrissyboy]

My original battery lasted 8 1/2 years.

Because, in my opinion, I knew how to look after it. They do need maintenance however most people Fit and Forget.

Just like tyres. Correct pressure and their life is doubled. A battery gets neglected cos you can't see what's happening inside.

You could be right but you are generally only talking about folk who don't know anything about batteries.

For the ones that have some knowledge you are only asking them to spend their money without needing to.




:new_year:


ermmmmmm i told the op he needs a new battery all the test he was told to do would not show the state of the battery ,i knew he wouldnt get enough cranking amps he NEEDED A NEW BATTERY. SO I AINT TOLD ANYONE TO SPEND MONEY WHEN THEY DIDNT NEED TO not only that using a duff battery can and will damage the alternator so who ever told him charge and use is giving bad advice, i too have had a battery last over 8 years but only the one and most start to fail at around the 4 year mark .....only way to be sure is to take out fuel pump fuel and see what the volts drop to cranking the car for 15 seconds ... lots of wasted time on alot of advice given ...... ffs it aint rocket science is it ... still not to worry alot of peps days are made by a funny read on here ......