Crank locking position KV6

[rosswalki]

Hi all, just on with the timing belts on the new 190. I have locked the crank using the correct pin in the correct hole (manual gearbox). The "V" in the crank pulley is slightly after the line on the oil pump housing. It's between the raised oval of metal and the lower part of the oil pump housing. Will try upload a pic. Just wondered if anyone had done this recently and remembered where it was. Don't want to start timing it up wrong! Thanks in advance all!


Rosswalki

[rosswalki]

Image of the crank locked in current position.

[Bolin]

Looks OK to me - the metal plate at the back of the sprocket has been welded on slightly out of line. This isn't the first case I have heard of where the back has been welded on out of line.

With the locking pin in, you can't go wrong in terms of being in the 'safe' position. :)

[rosswalki]

Hi mate, thanks, I thought that may be the case. I've locked it off and started the belt replacement although its just started raining and there's my pug van in the garage with no ECU so will have to work outside. Luckily I have the locking tools as work are an ex MGR dealer. Thanks again!

[Stag>75]

With the locking pin in, you can't go wrong in terms of being in the 'safe' position. :)

From memory you can still be 360 degrees out if doing the rear cambelts as they turn 180 degrees for each turn of the crank. And the rear cams need to be aligned only one of the 2 potential ways.

[mopedlad]

Hi there, thought this would fit in nicely as I see strange things on my cambelt change.
First of all: if I put the camshaft in the safe position I cannot use the locking pin, it simply won't go in. I did not bother to find out why as the timing marks on the camshaft sprockets in the front line out good.
Now I see that the rear camshaft sprockets do not line up, looks like the inlet cam has jumped a teeth. Should I put on the new belts and correct the position of the rear camshafts or leave it alone??http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif
Car is mine since two months and drives perfect but could not find anything on a cambelt change in service history. I wanted to be sure so I started with the job and see now the belt must have been changed before as I see several markings.

[Salad-Dodger]

Hi there. You know, you don't put the cams in the "safe position" Its the crank that goes in the "safe position"
Put the crank in position and place the pin in. Have a look at the cams to see where the marks are. If they aren't "on" then pull the pin and turn the crank another full turn, put the pin in and you may find that the cams do line up.
If they don't aline any of the last two positions, then the cams are out of alinement and need to be adjusted.
Don't forget that the 190 has its own timing apart from the usual V6.
if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me! Steve

[mopedlad]

Hi there. You know, you don't put the cams in the "safe position" Its the crank that goes in the "safe position"
Put the crank in position and place the pin in. Have a look at the cams to see where the marks are. If they aren't "on" then pull the pin and turn the crank another full turn, put the pin in and you may find that the cams do line up.
If they don't aline any of the last two positions, then the cams are out of alinement and need to be adjusted.
Don't forget that the 190 has its own timing apart from the usual V6.
if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me! Steve

Offcourse you are right, I wrote in a bit of a hurry but really ment the crankshaft. :duh::duh::duh:

[mopedlad]

Anyone who has seen this before??

[Salad-Dodger]

Nope....What is it?

[mopedlad]

As described above, the front camshaftsprockets line out and I understand that the rear camshafts should line out aswell. Should I correct this or leave as is?
Also the fact that in this position one should be able to lock the crankshaft but the pin won't go in makes it for me a bit tricky.
I could do with some help here.

[mopedlad]

:shrug::shrug:

[Salad-Dodger]

I'm probably sticking my neck out here, but as I see it, First you have the pin that locks the crank in the "safe" position. Therefore, if you then look at the marks on the cam sprockets on the short belt side, they ought to be in-line. Even if the car is a 190 (has slightly different inlet cam timing pos) They should still line up. I'm banking on the boys that designed this, did make sprockets for the 190 that were bespoke for the 190.
These sprockets are keyed to the camshafts and do not float like the ones on the other side of the engine (long belt) I'm not sure about the "line out" of the front sprockets as these do float, so they probably don't have any proper marks on them anyway. Its not a good idea to undo the front sprockets unless you have the tools, but then, if you line up the marks on the other end, you may not be able to fit the main belt without undoing them.
I have to do my belts and I have had a good look into doing this job without the tools. So far I've met as many people who have bent valves as the people who haven't.
If your marks on the short belt side don't line up with that crank pin in, it will most probably mean that whoever did the previous belt change, didn't perform the correct timing procedure.
The timing tools would restore this but then you could as well as far as I can see.
I'm sure someone much more experienced than I will pop up in no time!
I'm having to go out on the school run now but I'll drop you a pm when I get back. Steve

[mopedlad]

I'm probably sticking my neck out here, but as I see it, First you have the pin that locks the crank in the "safe" position. Therefore, if you then look at the marks on the cam sprockets on the short belt side, they ought to be in-line. Even if the car is a 190 (has slightly different inlet cam timing pos) They should still line up. I'm banking on the boys that designed this, did make sprockets for the 190 that were bespoke for the 190.
These sprockets are keyed to the camshafts and do not float like the ones on the other side of the engine (long belt) I'm not sure about the "line out" of the front sprockets as these do float, so they probably don't have any proper marks on them anyway. Its not a good idea to undo the front sprockets unless you have the tools, but then, if you line up the marks on the other end, you may not be able to fit the main belt without undoing them.
I have to do my belts and I have had a good look into doing this job without the tools. So far I've met as many people who have bent valves as the people who haven't.
If your marks on the short belt side don't line up with that crank pin in, it will most probably mean that whoever did the previous belt change, didn't perform the correct timing procedure.
The timing tools would restore this but then you could as well as far as I can see.
I'm sure someone much more experienced than I will pop up in no time!
I'm having to go out on the school run now but I'll drop you a pm when I get back. Steve


Thank you Steve, I made picture today of the crankshaft position and tried again to use the locking pin but still no succes. Also made picture the suspicious hole. It should be the outer one of the three though?? I certainly do not want to change anything on the front sprockets (long belt) and I assume things went wrong last belt change with the short belt on interior side that probadly has jumped one tooth because of the valvespring pressure. I will read your pm's now, and will return my opinion. I agree with you that the sprockets on short belt sdide should line up and different timing is set on the other side. thanks again.http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[mopedlad]

Ok, checked out the other posts and think now I got the wrong hole for locking the crank! I will try this tomorrow and if succesfull will line up the sprockets on the interior side. First change the short belts and then the long one.:D

[Salad-Dodger]

Yes, there are a few holes under there!
Just as an aside, and to show that my knowledge isn't vast! I've been looking at the factory vid of how they use the tools and the sprockets on the gearbox side (rear) aren't the same as the sprockets on our cars. It would seam that there was a change on the later V6s.
if that is so, did they make different tools for that short-belt change?
Steve

[andrewinpopayan]

Anyone who has seen this before??

Looks like a chap trying to fit a straightedge into a V6 engine, it should make it go better as a "rule" :getmecoat:

[Salad-Dodger]

Mopedlad. I think the other hole is for an "auto" Its not explained on the Rover vid or even on the other threads. I think I'll have to start another thread to find the answer to my rear sprocket lock tools question.

[Doc Evil]

You only need to take off one rear sprocket per head and don't need special tools see beinet1 s excellent how to
Doc

[Stag>75]

Ok, checked out the other posts and think now I got the wrong hole for locking the crank!

Different holes for Auto vs Manual. Cannot recall if Haynes manual shows it or it is documented elsewhere.

[Salad-Dodger]

Stag75
Its something I read elsewhere but I can't remember where. I'll be looking for that one. When I find it, I'll let you know.

Doc
Yes, I can see that. I was just getting to the point that the rear sprockets were different on the later engines. The point being as to, do the tools differ as well?
I'm just about to purchase a set of tools and I don't want to buy a set that isn't "the latest version" if indeed there were some!
Having had yet another look at this, there is a holding tool with the set I'm interested in buying that holds the sprocket while the bolt is done up.
I know there are plenty of people on here that are happy to do this without the tools. I'm not and I want all those marks on the sprockets to line up!
Cheers. Steve

[mopedlad]

Stag75
Its something I read elsewhere but I can't remember where. I'll be looking for that one. When I find it, I'll let you know.

Doc
Yes, I can see that. I was just getting to the point that the rear sprockets were different on the later engines. The point being as to, do the tools differ as well?
I'm just about to purchase a set of tools and I don't want to buy a set that isn't "the latest version" if indeed there were some!
Having had yet another look at this, there is a holding tool with the set I'm interested in buying that holds the sprocket while the bolt is done up.
I know there are plenty of people on here that are happy to do this without the tools. I'm not and I want all those marks on the sprockets to line up!
Cheers. Steve

I will make my own tool this afternoon. The crankshaft will have be locked in a different manner as none of holes can be used to insert the pin I made as described by Beinet, indeed excellent how to!
I remember the previous owner had the clutch replaced and I think they replaced or wrongly put together something there. I use the marks on the cranksprocet and the engine as "safe" position. The sprockets near the radiator are in line then and the interior side sprocket not completely, the inlet cam looks like it jumped one tooth when replaced. That was the main question: should it look like that or not?? In the meantime I decided to line the sprockets up as it makes no sense that they are not equal.

[Phil-T4]

Different holes for Auto vs Manual. Cannot recall if Haynes manual shows it or it is documented elsewhere.

Inner hole for auto
Outer hole for manual

[Phil-T4]

The sprockets near the radiator are in line then and the interior side sprocket not completely, the inlet cam looks like it jumped one tooth when replaced. That was the main question: should it look like that or not?? In the meantime I decided to line the sprockets up as it makes no sense that they are not equal.

No, both secondary belt cams should be inline.

[Salad-Dodger]

mopedlad.
One of those holes should be clear. Unless there's something in there.
If I remember, the tool that goes in there is stepped. Beinet has a drawing on his thread that shows it.
If it were me I'd turn the crank a bit in either direction slightly till a small bolt dropped into that hole, then put the correct size pin in the hole and have a look at where the mark on the crank is. Its worth noting that the plate welded to the rear of the crank sprocket with the V in it, is often found to be welded slightly in the wrong place. It has been mentioned on here on other threads, so worth a look.
Its really important that you are confident that you have the "safe" position as its the main holding point for the whole operation. If its not found, the marks on the rear sprockets won't line up at all.
I think you may be looking at the wrong hole in the engine block. Try the one to the left of the two outer holes. Steve

[mopedlad]

Hello There, finally succeeded in getting this locking pin in. Took picture so others can see where it goes. My car is manual transmission and Haynes describes it rather cryptic as the outer hole. I would say it's the middle one.:D
Also a picture of the position of the crankshaftsprocket which is indeed not exact. now proceeding to make a straight edge for marking the camshaft sprockets and a tool to hold the inlet sprocket.
Again thank you guys for all good advises.
:bowdown: Will donate this forum as it truly saves money and time!

[Salad-Dodger]

Great news. Glad you are getting there! At least now everything can be based on that correct position. I even know people that have done this work without putting this pin in at all.
They may not suffer from valve contact but I bet the performance wasn't all that! Good luck. Steve