Diesel not starting - not flat battery

[Dvorak]

Hi guys,

Just got back from an extended absence... tried to start and battery was flat, as expected. Tried to jump, and still she just clicked at me. No indication that the starter is even trying to fire.

Could this be the starter jammed on the flywheel or something? I'm not sure that happens any more. Fingers crossed it's not too serious!

Thanks

[EastPete]

William

Get the battery fully charged up, and checked the battery connections are good (clean/tight), and that the wires at the starter motor (including the small wire on the side) have good connections. If it still will not start, there may be a problem with the starter solenoid/contacts - this can be repaired with a 20 pound repair kit.

Let us know how you get on

Pete

[SD1too]

Just got back from an extended absence... tried to start and battery was flat, as expected.
William,

I agree with Pete when he says that your first move should be to charge your battery fully. CTek have an excellent range of compact, well engineered chargers; their model MXS3.8 would be suitable.

It's very likely that this will be all you need to do.

Simon

[Dvorak]

Thanks for the advice.

Before I read your replies I tried starting it by disconnecting my battery cables entirely, and then using jump leads to connect my battery leads to the terminals on a healthy running Mondeo diesel. Does this not suggest that my battery is not the main problem if I still have the same symptoms even with it out of the circuit entirely?

I should probably add that this comes following quite a few battery problems - I installed a reverse camera on a permanent live, which I had to move to an ignition live after caused quite a bad resting current drain. I think that's been sorted now. The battery has also been flat quite a few times over the past year which is no doubt bad for it, but doesn't seem to be the cause of the problem?

The battery terminal connections are definitely good. I've looked to try to find the starter - apparently it is under the battery box. Is there a how-to to help me access it and check its connections? My issues also seem to fit the "solenoid contact cleaning" type problem.

Thanks very much for your help :).

[EastPete]

William

I think that jump starting from another vehicle never gives the same 'kick' to the starter as a good battery on the actual car itself. I have found that Rover 75s are sensitive to less than fully charged batteries, and will give the symptoms you describe when trying to start when the battery is below par.

BTW, I am not sure that the method you used to jump start from the Mondeo is recommended - diesel batteries are quite powerful, and usually the negative jump lead should be connected to an earthing point on the car (engine mount or similar), rather than connecting directly to the battery earth post, when jump starting diesels.

I really do recommend charging the battery fully (or actually fitting a good battery in the car, not via jump leads) before you start exploring other options.

The starter motor is located on the front of the engine as you look into the engine bay - look under the black 'concertina' air intake duct at the front of the engine bay, and you will see it there at the join of the engine/gearbox - particularly check the small lead that pushes onto a 'spade' connector on the side of the motor (facing you as you look into the engine bay) - this connection can become loose , and cause the starter to be unresponsive.

Pete

[Dvorak]

Thanks Pete.

I will follow your advice. Because the only battery charger I have on hand is an ancient thing which takes days to charge a battery, I will drop in the battery from the Mondeo and see if that makes any difference.

[Greeners]

make sure the battery terminals are tight...slacken the bolt, gently tap down and tighten.

They're a taper fit

[clf]

if it is a manual, a push state may work. but after trying the jump start from the mondeo, and the starter is clicking, I would suggest the starter needs to be refurbished with one of the kits on eBay. not difficult nor expensive, but it is a pain getting to the bolts holding it onto the bell housing.

[Dvorak]

It just failed to start using the known working and well-charged battery from the Mondeo, as Pete suggested. I think that shows that it's something to do with the starter? All the lights on the dash come on as expected, including the glows, and then it just clicks repeatedly when turned to ignition III.

Unfortunately it's at the bottom of my drive, so there is no way to do a bump start. How do I access the starter to investigate it? Assuming it's the thing I've found (centre, below the black air duct, marked "Denso 280000"), it's recessed quite a long way so I can barely get my hands in to check its connections. Is there a how-to somewhere?

[SD1too]

All the lights on the dash come on as expected, including the glows, and then it just clicks repeatedly when turned to ignition III.
OK, that sounds like dirty or worn solenoid contacts.

Have a look at the 'How to' index. I think its on the main contents list of the forum, but as you're obviously keen on DIY repairs a Haynes manual will be a good investment which will pay for itself very quickly. A second-hand copy from e-bay will be fine.

Simon

[EastPete]

To get the starter off, you need to remove the engine cover (three 8mm bolts), then remove the air intake duct - three screws/bolts on the bonnet slam panel (these can seize, and need persuasion from a trim removal tool or mole grips underneath holding the captive nuts, to get them off), and two screws that hold the air intake onto the inlet manifold. You then get better access to the starter motor. Disconnect the battery. Disconnect the small lead from the small 'spade' terminal on the side of the motor. Undo the nut holding the two thicker cables onto the larger terminal on the motor. Then using suitable 13/15mm sockets/spanners you undo the two bolts that hold the starter to the gearbox bellhousing - one of these is a bit fiddly, but with the right length extension bar (and possibly moving a bit of pipework out of the way), the motor should come off without too much trouble. There is an earth lead attached to the top bolt- leave this in place, and do not forget to retighten this when replacing.

DMGRS on here has the starter repair kits.

Let us know how you get on.

Pete

[clf]

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=199675

links are on that thread

[Dvorak]

Thank you all so much for your help.

I will have a go when the weather improves and get back to you.

[COLVERT]

As above-------It is the solenoid on the starter that isn't working.

As posted above it's not an expensive fix. ;)


While your waiting give your battery a 30 hour charge.

[clf]

This is what to expect to find. The contacts showing obvious wear, creating a gap where the solenoid plunger will not be able to make the electrical contact.

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34162&d=1399825025

[Dvorak]

Hi all,

Sorry for being so slow to update. I gave up trying to remove the starter myself (I'm not the most mechanically minded) and dragged the car down the road to my local garage. Problem diagnosed - dead battery! I've now got a new Exide fitted and it starts promptly and reliably... I'm not sure why this should be because I thought the Mondeo battery starting it would have rules out battery problems, but apparently not. Maybe it was just flat for too long.

Thanks for all your advice - I now have a solenoid repair kit on hand in case it's required in future.

[FROGGY]

Yet another example as to how these cars demand a GOOD battery.

[SD1too]

Problem diagnosed - dead battery! I've now got a new Exide fitted and it starts promptly and reliably...
Hmmm, that's interesting. Let's look at what you told us earlier:
It just failed to start using the known working and well-charged battery from the Mondeo ...
Ahh, those magic words "known working". ;) Obviously not, and not "well-charged" either. :o

Even earlier, what did Pete and I recommend? This:
I agree with Pete when he says that your first move should be to charge your battery fully ...It's very likely that this will be all you need to do.
Why didn't you try that? I don't know. :o People seem to prefer to go to the dentist for an extraction than charge their car battery. :shrug: :rolleyes:

Simon

[Rev Jules]

If a battery is discharged it will not come back to life as I have found out, being a diesel even if the Mondeo had a decent charge it would have depended on what jump leads he was using if they were cheap and nasty they would not have been man enough?

Julien

[SD1too]

If a battery is discharged it will not come back to life ...
That's not a universal truth Julien. If a battery is kept in a low state of charge over an extended period of time, or if it is repeatedly allowed to be deeply discharged then you are right, the battery will probably not recover. But an occasional discharge with prompt recharging for at least 24 hours will restore an otherwise healthy battery.

The problem is Julien that most people don't give their battery a second thought and expect it to perform at any time and in any conditions irrespective of the amount of charging time it has had from the car's alternator. When it doesn't respond, they think it is "dead" and renew it. There is a strong reluctance to own a battery charger as a maintenance tool.
... even if the Mondeo had a decent charge it would have depended on what jump leads he was using if they were cheap and nasty they would not have been man enough?
True, but the at the second attempt the OP said that he didn't use jump leads:
... I will drop in the battery from the Mondeo ...
So that should have started the Rover shouldn't it. :}

Simon

[Dvorak]

Hmmm, that's interesting. Let's look at what you told us earlier:

Ahh, those magic words "known working". ;) Obviously not, and not "well-charged" either. :o

Even earlier, what did Pete and I recommend? This:

Why didn't you try that? I don't know. :o People seem to prefer to go to the dentist for an extraction than charge their car battery. :shrug: :rolleyes:

Simon

Woah - the battery started an equally large diesel engine in a Mondeo, delivers about 680 CCA, and had just come back from a 300 mile trip up the motorway - I'm not sure it was unreasonable for me to expect this to work. I took my battery out and connected the Mondeo battery to my battery leads and it didn't start. It would have been stupid for me to buy a new battery straight away based on this evidence, or to either wait for a faster battery charger to be delivered or be without a car in the meantime. According to the guy down the road, the old battery was not accepting charge even when he tried his super duper charger on it, so he found that to be the problem. I would probably not have recognized this if I had been charging it.

It's entirely possible that my being away for so long with a flat battery has allowed it to break, and that is my fault. It's not the end of the world.

I did read your advice and appreciate it. I'm genuinely very grateful for your help, and I'm glad that my lovely car is back on the road. I could have changed the battery myself, but it didn't seem like a sensible investment after the Mondeo battery failed to start it (and right afterwards, succeeded in starting the Mondeo again).

[SD1too]

... the battery ... had just come back from a 300 mile trip up the motorway ... I took my battery out and connected the Mondeo battery to my battery leads and it didn't start ... (and right afterwards, succeeded in starting the Mondeo again)
Understood William; so how can it be that a new battery supplied by the garage started the engine whereas the Mondeo's battery didn't? As they're both good, healthy batteries, it doesn't make sense does it. :}

Simon

[clf]

I am not sure of the contacts of the mondeo battery, but old Fords used to have different terminals. whether they currently are similar or not, just placing the Rover leads onto the battery and not able to nip them up properly, the contact made by them, may not have been enough to allow a full current to pass through. (this happened to me on an old car before - cars leads just resting on the battery terminals I thought would be enough to allow it to start) . it is just about suggestion as to why the mondeo battery did not work. I would have expected it to also.

[FROGGY]

Generally speaking, a battery post is a battery post.
If the terminals go on, they go on.
Perhaps the Mondeo is not as choosy when it comes to starting.
Our cars are. Don't ask me why, they just are.
Mick

[clf]

Generally speaking, a battery post is a battery post.
If the terminals go on, they go on.
Perhaps the Mondeo is not as choosy when it comes to starting.
Our cars are. Don't ask me why, they just are.
Mick
that's what I thought. but the contact made on my old car was enough to power wipers and the stereo, but not the starter. when I rested the leads onto the posts, they touched the posts, but there was a gap. as I said the stereo came on, the wipers came on (I had accidentally nudged the stalk to on) but when I went to start the car, the stereo went off briefly and then nothing. not even a click. I should add it was a Toyota without an ecu and not a Rover. when the terminals clamped down, the car started as it should have .I take it, it is the same principle as the starter leads not making full contact on the terminals.