Spraying water into inlet to clean engine while running?

[Shawn]

Yes it seems to be a real thing:eek:
There does seem some logic to it as I have done head gaskets and seen that shiny new piston and valves:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOoIuBu5xO4


I've even thought what if you could do this while driving, with the engine fully warm and at speed. So then thought what if I drilled a hole in the inlet manifold and screwed in some sort of jet. Coupled it up to my windscreen washer motor filled with distilled water and just kept blipping it,just enough so the wipers didn't come on.
I'm big on out of the box thinking :D:D
Thoughts ?

[Greeners]

bloke at work was talking about this.....

hes done it on his TD5 disco and swears by it......

[andrewinpopayan]

I can't think of anything more stupid to do to an engine except run it without oil !!!! :mad:

[Robti]

In my vitesse I spray a 20% methanol to 80% water in and if you go over to the 800 site some of them were doing this home made with a syringe

[klarzy]

I can only see thermal shock as being the medium for cracking the carbon off of the cylinder heads, not sure how well the cylinder liners would take it....:shrug:

[humphshumphs]

I seem to remember some years ago, a few cars (fiat comes to mind as one of them) had water injection. Not sure if it was to lower emissions, or make the burn better, but seemed to not be available for long.

[Heddy]

April already is it?:getmecoat:

[RPWC]

Well I for one won't be trying it! Its a bit like the thing a year or two back of adding two stroke oil to the diesel tank. it was supposed to make the engine quieter and smoother,but all it did was glaze the injectors. This was proven to me by T4,prior to using 2t the injectors were fine last T4 check. After several months on 2T,when it came to remap time the injector compensations were all over the place.
So spraying water into a running engine,? well you might as well drive through a huge puddle at 40 mph :shrug:

[T-Cut]

I don't know about engine decarbonisation, that's a new angle which could no doubt make money for somebody. I think I'd like to see the engine being demo'd stripped down to prove it's 'steam cleaned'. And why should a shiny clean piston crown be better for the engine than the carbonised one? It could be a lot worse.

Mixing water (or steam) with fuel is a well known idea that's been around for decades. Probably best known in the power generation industry in countries with lots of heavy oil and bitumen deposits. Check out 'oremulsion' in Wikipedia. Water gives improved anti-knock/pre-ignition and allows petrol engines to have higher than normal compression ratios.

In the 70s I remember you could buy kits to pass steam into your inlet manifold. It came from water passing through a copper pipe wrapped around the exhaust manifold. The idea was to use a higher octane petrol than normal and get more power. The company I worked for had an ex RAF fighter pilot who swore by his kit. There is a scientific basis for water injection, so it's not all snake oil by any means. But in today's cars running on today's fuels, it's unlikely to be much more than a topic of conversation. There's loads of stuff about it if you look.

TC

[klarzy]

echo, echo, echo

[Mr Bone]

Won't spraying water into the inlet damage the Maf?

I remember the diesel intake mod was suspected to lead to failure of it.

[klarzy]

Won't spraying water into the inlet damage the Maf?

I remember the diesel intake mod was suspected to lead to failure of it.

he did say do it after the MAF...

[neilb740]

It cant be that bad for the engine, They used to inject water into aircraft piston engines to boost power. Either pure water or sometimes a water/methanol mix.
I think a lot of the German WW2 aircraft had water injection.
Im not sure how much cleaning it would do though.

[minimutly]

Water injection isnt new, much used on high pressure turbo diesels an petrols.
A friend of mine used to turbo a prv6 engine, 20 something psi - his answer to how much was "**** it in", not sure how much that is.
The tractor pullers use a pressure washer pump on the front of the block.
Huw

[Les4048]

Water injection was fitted to a mates Imprezza but like others on here I just thought it wrong to inject an incompressible liquid into a space that's going to compress whatever is in it

[Shawn]

From what I can gather the water droplets quickly vaporise with the heat into steam and expand massively. The steam then cleans the carbon away.
I have seen clean piston tops on head gasket failure cars. :shrug:

[munroman]

From what I can gather the water droplets quickly vaporise with the heat into steam and expand massively. The steam then cleans the carbon away.
I have seen clean piston tops on head gasket failure cars. :shrug:

Me too, on a Nissan Sunny the cylinder where the coolant had been leaking into was absolutely spotless, whereas the other cylinders were quite heavily carbonised.

[andrewinpopayan]

From what I can gather the water droplets quickly vaporise with the heat into steam and expand massively. The steam then cleans the carbon away.
I have seen clean piston tops on head gasket failure cars. :shrug:


I have seen dirty con rods, big ends and chunks of crankshaft stuck through the side of engine blocks and embedded in sumps, don't mean I'm going to try it. :cool:

[bear-mg]

Apparently in the good ol usa you can buy a product called seafoam which is meant to clean the Internals by spraying it in the Inlet ,very similar to spraying water I geuss....not one Im gona try personally.... dont fancy hydraulic Lock....

[trikey]

Lotus used a water methanol injection in years gone by, it's very good at lowering cylinder temps.

[RogerHeinz57]

Metro 6R4 with water injection, screenwash sometimes got used as well as toluene, the engine was spotless for rebuilds.
It got through the season very well and gave an edge to the abilities of the car with no ill-effects.

[clf]

With water not being compressible, is it this reason that compression is raised? Less compressible space. The water vapour then gets expelled via exhaust? The additional compression, and stronger combustion (read as explosion) would then create a greater shock inside the bores, loosening, and ultimately removing the carbon build up. Then with water vapour created/super heated, would then effectively steam clean the surfaces.

I personally wouldnt have the nerve to try this, however, if the engine was in good condition, I cant imagine a small, controlled short time use, amount of this causing long term damage. But I would change the oil straight after, making sure oil cap and dipstick well cleaned too, to avoid any misdiagnosis of hgf.

[minimutly]

Paranoid, the lot of you.
Unless you need it though, why would you?

[Dragrad]

Just one question....

If water is good for the engine, why did Rover add the splash guard to protect & decrease the volume of water splash entering the engine via the breather intake & also to the MAF ?

Do a search on "splash guard" in the forums search (google (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=AH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ARover%252075%2520%2526%2520MG %2520ZT%2520Owners%2520Club%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww .google.com%2Fcoop%2Fintl%2Fen-US%2Fimages%2Fcustom_search_sm.gif%3BLH%3A65%3BLP% 3A1%3BGFNT%3A%23666666%3BDIV%3A%23cccccc%3B&adkw=AELymgWs9D-8-D5w4nJg2O5pmlAww6fsCA05Xr2R_-wDJXtUXgvT2aG88NPOznYR-Dp0NmUMAUjUCrqhbWiLG1aQJKyu00-ToxSbqt0LXAn4qsV-Xftfe123C9Aw7KxV2I6JWkGoYrAxNTXNni0ekQOM2kQ-IVcJOw&q=&btnG=Search&cref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fcse%2Ftools%2Fm akecse%3Furl%3Dwww.the75andztclub.co.uk)) engine. Lots of threads on this subject. :} I think that the jury may be out, but my instinct is not to inject extra water into the system ;)

Water is not a compressible liquid as such. When it freezes it expands, when it is heated it expands... at some temperature (outside of the engine) it is naturally... well water.:D

[ceedy]

Whether its good or bad , its all about control :D..

Driving through a monsoon isn't a very controlled way of letting water in ;), whereas careful squirts with a spray is! .. plus rain would be getting in before the MAF .. so not too good then either:D

C.



Just one question....

If water is good for the engine, why did Rover add the splash guard to protect & decrease the volume of water splash entering the engine via the breather intake & also to the MAF ?

Do a search on "splash guard" in the forums search (google (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&client=google-coop&cof=AH%3Aleft%3BCX%3ARover%252075%2520%2526%2520MG %2520ZT%2520Owners%2520Club%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww .google.com%2Fcoop%2Fintl%2Fen-US%2Fimages%2Fcustom_search_sm.gif%3BLH%3A65%3BLP% 3A1%3BGFNT%3A%23666666%3BDIV%3A%23cccccc%3B&adkw=AELymgWs9D-8-D5w4nJg2O5pmlAww6fsCA05Xr2R_-wDJXtUXgvT2aG88NPOznYR-Dp0NmUMAUjUCrqhbWiLG1aQJKyu00-ToxSbqt0LXAn4qsV-Xftfe123C9Aw7KxV2I6JWkGoYrAxNTXNni0ekQOM2kQ-IVcJOw&q=&btnG=Search&cref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fcse%2Ftools%2Fm akecse%3Furl%3Dwww.the75andztclub.co.uk)) engine. Lots of threads on this subject. :} I think that the jury may be out, but my instinct is not to inject extra water into the system ;)

Water is not a compressible liquid as such. When it freezes it expands, when it is heated it expands... at some temperature (outside of the engine) it is naturally... well water.:D

[hogweed]

NO liquid - including diesel - is compressible, unless I've forgotten my "O" Level Physics... I imagine any proposed method of squirting water in atomises it, like a diesel injector does. Now, actually chucking a pile of water in - well, that would be very silly.

Whether it would actually do any good or not, I haven't got a clue. When I was a kid, we used to pull the heads off our motorbikes and hack vast amounts of carbon deposit off the top of the pistons with a screwdriver - but I'm fairly sure, with modern engines, this is unnecessary :D

Actually, I'm not sure it was even necessary then... :getmecoat:

[klarzy]

NO liquid - including diesel - is compressible, unless I've forgotten my "O" Level Physics... I imagine any proposed method of squirting water in atomises it, like a diesel injector does. Now, actually chucking a pile of water in - well, that would be very silly.

Whether it would actually do any good or not, I haven't got a clue. When I was a kid, we used to pull the heads off our motorbikes and hack vast amounts of carbon deposit off the top of the pistons with a screwdriver - but I'm fairly sure, with modern engines, this is unnecessary :D

Actually, I'm not sure it was even necessary then... :getmecoat:

not completely true...

at extreme pressure (not found in nature on Earth), water can become a slush which is denser than water in its fully liquid state, the slushiness comes from the atoms being forced together slightly, thus compressed...

[hogweed]

not completely true...

at extreme pressure (not found in nature on Earth), water can become a slush which is denser than water in its fully liquid state, the slushiness comes from the atoms being forced together slightly, thus compressed...

Heh - yes, I was confining myself to Earth ;)

It's a bit like the gap between the nucleus of atoms and their electrons being so vast, compared with the particles' size, that if all the space were removed, the entire human race (around 6 billion) would fit into the last joint of your little finger... apparently

[T-Cut]

It's a bit like the gap between the nucleus of atoms and their electrons being so vast, compared with the particles' size, that if all the space were removed, the entire human race (around 6 billion) would fit into the last joint of your little finger...

You could call it a Black Hole.

TC

[Shawn]

I've ordered a 6mm atomizing brass spray nozzle for 0.99p !

What I'm going to do is drill the inlet manifold and bolt it in.
Then next year before I service it I'm going to connect it up to my windscreen washer motor with distilled water in it and give it a go. Then see what the MOT comes up with compared to this years.:shrug:

[first-things-first]

Interestingly, Autocar are saying that facelift BMW M3's and M4's will have water injection vua the manifold to boost power and lower cylinder temps.

Small article has a test drive of 1 series with prototype version - says that no difference normal running, but feels smoother at speed. All subjective.

[DMGRS]

Interesting, I'd actually be tempted to give this a go in the name of science.
Not to my own cars, mind... :D

[ceedy]

tad Cheaper than terraclean :D:D:D:D:D:D

:getmecoat:

C.

[T-Cut]

Ever noticed how the engine gets smoother/quieter when driving in mist and fog?
Water vapour ingestion. Same thing.

TC

[Mike Noc]

I've ordered a 6mm atomizing brass spray nozzle for 0.99p !

What I'm going to do is drill the inlet manifold and bolt it in.
Then next year before I service it I'm going to connect it up to my windscreen washer motor with distilled water in it and give it a go. Then see what the MOT comes up with compared to this years.:shrug:

Oh dear. :getmecoat:

As you are going ahead with this ensure that anything bolted to the manifold is secure and can't vibrate loose or break, or it risks getting ingested into a cylinder, and if it does you won't get as far as the MOT testing station. ;)

Also important not to inject too much water as there isn't much head space when the pistons are at TDC - if the nozzle breaks, it could be Goodnight Vienna for your engine. :eek:

Far safer to use a measured dose - say a syringe full than your washer system. ;)

[Shawn]

Oh dear. :getmecoat:

As you are going ahead with this ensure that anything bolted to the manifold is secure and can't vibrate loose or break, or it risks getting ingested into a cylinder, and if it does you won't get as far as the MOT testing station. ;)

Also important not to inject too much water as there isn't much head space when the pistons are at TDC - if the nozzle breaks, it could be Goodnight Vienna for your engine. :eek:

Far safer to use a measured dose - say a syringe full than your washer system. ;)

Well I've invested 99p now!:D:D

[T-Cut]

There are two separate issues now being considered. A) Decarbonisation/cleaning of the combustion chamber surfaces and B) increased power generation. The two are quite different even though they may occur symultaneously over a long period. I'd like to see some boroscope images before and after a few squirts of water mist into any running engine. I'll bet my last buck you'll see no difference at all. There's no credible difference after using those commercially formulated cleaners like SeaFoam, etc.

TC

[spyder]

Ever noticed how the engine gets smoother/quieter when driving in mist and fog?
Water vapour ingestion. Same thing.

TC

And a turbo engine has more power because of the denser air being forced into the engine.

Why would anyone think of putting H2o into an engine, surely no internal combustion engine would ever run on Hydrogen and/or Oxygen-Oh wait.....;)

[bramblp]

There are two separate issues now being considered. A) Decarbonisation/cleaning of the combustion chamber surfaces and B) increased power generation. The two are quite different even though they may occur symultaneously over a long period. I'd like to see some boroscope images before and after a few squirts of water mist into any running engine. I'll bet my last buck you'll see no difference at all. There's no credible difference after using those commercially formulated cleaners like SeaFoam, etc.

TC
As far as increased power is concerned, I did read some years ago that a sign of impending Head gasket failure was increased power and reduced fuel consumption due to coolant entering the combustion chamber, this was due to the sudden expansion of the water into steam similar to when a drop of water falls into a chip pan, this sudden expansion adds to expansion of gasses giving more power. as water when turned to steam increases in volume by 1,700 times so it would not take much to have an effect.

[klarzy]

You could call it a Black Hole.

TC

If the nucleus was a golf ball the electron would orbit at 11000 meters. :eek:

[T-Cut]

The physics behind injecting water into petrol engines is that it lowers the compression temperature. Heat absorbed in converting water droplets into gas requires energy that would otherwise power the piston, so at first glance, less useful power is available. But since the compresion temerature ois reduced, a higher compression ration can be used. This producesa nett gain in power output. basically, the higher volatility of petrol can be mitigated and pre-ignition avoided. This basically is why a high compression diesel uses so much less fuel at a higher efficiency than a petrol engine.

The ingestion of water vapour in foggy weather probably has a similar effect on efficiency so the engine runs perceptably smoother with less throttle. If you could somehow increase the compresion ratio at the same time, you might approach the efficiency of the diesel.

TC

[olliesgrandad]

Didnt Saab dable in water injection ? like another member said my 1.8 t always runs better in damp weather :}

[T-Cut]

If the nucleus was a golf ball the electron would orbit at 11000 meters. :eek:

Wow! But only the lower spherical orbital (sigma 1). The higher energy F-orbitals are considerably more elongated and go vastly further out.

Another mind blowing fact.
The still working Voyager 1 spacecraft (launched in 1977) is now so far away, radio signals take 18 hours to reach it and another 18 hours for us to receive a reply. So, it's 18 light hours distant.

It's travelling at over 10 miles/second and to reach the nearest star to the sun would take 70,000 years.

Next one please!

TC

[COLVERT]

As far as increased power is concerned, I did read some years ago that a sign of impending Head gasket failure was increased power and reduced fuel consumption due to coolant entering the combustion chamber, this was due to the sudden expansion of the water into steam similar to when a drop of water falls into a chip pan, this sudden expansion adds to expansion of gasses giving more power. as water when turned to steam increases in volume by 1,700 times so it would not take much to have an effect.

The sudden expansion takes heat from the burning gas therefore reducing the energy from that. You just WON'T get something for nothing.----:p:

And a turbo engine has more power because of the denser air being forced into the engine.

Why would anyone think of putting H2o into an engine, surely no internal combustion engine would ever run on Hydrogen and/or Oxygen-Oh wait.....;)

Don't know if you might have noticed but they put fires OUT with that H2O stuff.-------------------:eek::eek::eek:


You have to UNSTICK it ( At great expense. ) if you want to burn it.---:D

[RayH]

Ever noticed how the engine gets smoother/quieter when driving in mist and fog?
Water vapour ingestion. Same thing.

TC

That's because you are driving more slowly! :D :D :D

[spyder]

You have to UNSTICK it ( At great expense. ) if you want to burn it.---:D

SSSSSHHHHH don't let the petrol companies know that you know that.;)

[allan t]

it does actually clean engine internals,but it has to be regulated,veg oil users do it to cure ring gumming.One guy had his dip stick blowing out due to ring gumming,he ran water injection by a crude system using a spare washer pump and bottle and did a fifty mile controlled run his crankcase back pressure dropped dramaticaly

[murphyv310]

it does actually clean engine internals,but it has to be regulated,veg oil users do it to cure ring gumming.One guy had his dip stick blowing out due to ring gumming,he ran water injection by a crude system using a spare washer pump and bottle and did a fifty mile controlled run his crankcase back pressure dropped dramaticaly

Interesting thread and this post reminded me of a 997cc Anglia van I had which had gummed up rings and loads of back pressure.
I did the usual redex treatment down the carb, in the fuel and an overnight soak on the piston crowns. There was only a little improvement.
A mechanic friend tol me to get the engine really warm keep the revs up and trickle a pint of water down the carb.
It certainly worked, the back pressure significantly dropped power was up and it would start first time when cold which was a novelty beforehand.

[hogweed]

Next one please!

There's no hair on a seagull's face... {nose-tapping smiley}

[Shawn]

There are two separate issues now being considered. A) Decarbonisation/cleaning of the combustion chamber surfaces and B) increased power generation. The two are quite different even though they may occur symultaneously over a long period. I'd like to see some boroscope images before and after a few squirts of water mist into any running engine. I'll bet my last buck you'll see no difference at all. There's no credible difference after using those commercially formulated cleaners like SeaFoam, etc.

TC

This guy has done a test,may not be too scientific and the fact that its an old banger is a bit worrying :shrug:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZDISp2pdSo

[T-Cut]

I've watched several similar videos using water and using commercial products like Snowfoam, etc. and the evidence is very very weak IMO. One piston out of four looking slightly cleaner doesn't provide enough to claim it works. Repeat the test next week on the same car and there may well be no change. As the guy keeps saying, 'In my opinion' it looks this or that. I dare say if a water injector system was set up to run with the engine over thousands of miles, I would expect an effect. There's plenty of evidence to support it. But a few brief squirts of water into one engine as demo'd in most of these videos doen't provide a scientifically acceptable test. And if it really worked, car engines would have it already. Watch out for the HOH generators and the cars that do 100 mpg of water.

Fuel of the future?: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hoh+generator+car+engine

TC

[hogweed]

Maybe this is a good time to start an argument - sorry, reasoned discussion on the merits of other magical gadgets like the Broquet "Catalyst" (http://www.broquet.co.uk/)... ;)

[chipsceola]

Maybe this is a good time to start an argument - sorry, reasoned discussion on the merits of other magical gadgets like the Broquet "Catalyst" (http://www.broquet.co.uk/)... ;)

or to remember maybe? in particular Jonathan Routh in a sketch from Candid Camera years ago: Car pulls into petrol forecourt, driver opens fuel cap, drops in two white pills, then adds a couple of gallons of water, restarts engine and drives away.

Next day he's back and repeats exercise convincing the pump attendant his car runs on water + 2 white pills etc.

[T-Cut]

An independent test using Broquet catalyst in a motor bike. Impressive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8b0JV-8rnU

Fifth Gear tests the Broquet catalyst and several other 'fuel saving' devices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lpnHhTG204

TC

[hogweed]

An independent test using Broquet catalyst in a motor bike. Impressive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8b0JV-8rnU

Fifth Gear tests the Broquet catalyst and several other 'fuel saving' devices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lpnHhTG204

TC

Only managed a quick look at the 5th Gear one - results exactly as expected (and experienced by me, on two cars, 20 years ago): 0

Expect a rush of claims from people that their 75 achieved 75mpg with one of these, that it completely de-coked their engine, fixed the blown head gasket, and stopped the boot leaking.

[T-Cut]

I'm quietly planning what I think is the ultimate fuel economiser for the 75/ZT. It's all rather hush hush at the minute, because patents and copyrights are being explored and these take a bit of time. What I can tell you right now, is it involves replacing the plastic fuel tank with a steel one. That's because steel conducts magnetism and . . . Oh, I really shouldn't say any more, but it's so exciting it's difficult not to shout it out loud. What I can divulge quietly is that the latest non-alloyed neodymium magnets are involved. The magnetic flux from these is just astounding. Several hundred stuck over the tank surface will completely encapsulate and permeate the fuel with a dense magnetic flux far exceeding the Groddheimer Threshold (§). Damn! I shouldn't have said that. Please keepall this under your hat until the patent/copyrights are sorted out. It'll take a while but watch this space - and YouTube.

TC

[hogweed]

I'm quietly planning what I think is the ultimate fuel economiser for the 75/ZT. It's all rather hush hush at the minute, because patents and copyrights are being explored and these take a bit of time. What I can tell you right now, is it involves replacing the plastic fuel tank with a steel one. That's because steel conducts magnetism and . . . Oh, I really shouldn't say any more, but it's so exciting it's difficult not to shout it out loud. What I can divulge quietly is that the latest non-alloyed neodymium magnets are involved. The magnetic flux from these is just astounding. Several hundred stuck over the tank surface will completely encapsulate and permeate the fuel with a dense magnetic flux far exceeding the Groddheimer Threshold (§). Damn! I shouldn't have said that. Please keepall this under your hat until the patent/copyrights are sorted out. It'll take a while but watch this space - and YouTube.

TC

Well, OK, I mean it’s good as far as it goes, but what about the air? You need to adopt a HOLISTIC approach which treats the WHOLE CAR, not just the fuel. I’m going to let you into one of the secrets of the Illuminati, for which I expect to have to go into hiding for the rest of my life – but it’s my DUTY to the human race to reveal this arcane knowledge, at last.

You need to bring the vibrations of the air intake into harmony with the magnetic field you've created in the tank. You do this by implanting a reed from a C# saxophone in the air filter, thus creating a resonant wave, tuned to the precise vibrational frequency of the magnets.

You can expect a minimum power gain of 300%, so use your car wisely.

Ummm… what’s that sound of breaking glass downstairs…

Hogweed
From Stroud
The Home of Yogic Flying (http://www.yogicflyingclubs.org/yogic_flying.html)

[T-Cut]

You need to bring the vibrations of the air intake into harmony with the magnetic field you've created in the tank.

The replacement of the original cotton weave (porous) air intake (Shannon duct) by those metal or silicone alternatives is the singular reason why the harmonic benefit is lost. Unknown to most, the genuine OEM Shannon duct is made of a semi-porous material that controls intake airstream vibrations and effectively eliminates the noisier overtones. This leads to a standing wave within the duct and a highly efficient, virtually silent induction. Anyone interested can verify this by visiting the Shannon Company website and reading about the principles involved. I really am not joking.

So a major factor in my particular concept will be to reinstate the cotton weave Shannon. The combination of a standing wave at the front and a high Gauss environment at the rear will ensure the holistic needs you subscribe to are provided. Many thanks for reminding me about it.

TC

[Mike Noc]

Aiding fuel economy with magnets TC? Been tried before. :D

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/images/reviews/81/1115927262.jpg

[hogweed]

The replacement of the original cotton weave (porous) air intake (Shannon duct) by those metal or silicone alternatives is the singular reason why the harmonic benefit is lost. Unknown to most, the genuine OEM Shannon duct is made of a semi-porous material that controls intake airstream vibrations and effectively eliminates the noisier overtones. This leads to a standing wave within the duct and a highly efficient, virtually silent induction. Anyone interested can verify this by visiting the Shannon Company website and reading about the principles involved. I really am not joking.

So a major factor in my particular concept will be to reinstate the cotton weave Shannon. The combination of a standing wave at the front and a high Gauss environment at the rear will ensure the holistic needs you subscribe to are provided. Many thanks for reminding me about it.

TC

Just make sure it's ORGANIC cotton :mad:

[Shawn]

But its water! its free! it falls from the sky. Who's making money? :D
Anyway I'll be steam cleaning my injectors next spring in situ ;)

[Teflon]

All this talk of technical mods etc to gain extra MPH - you're all missing the simplest solution.

I have a foolproof approach which requires no outlay and actually works in the real world. All you need to do is plan each journey carefully to ensure the entire route is down hill all the way. Obviously, you'll need to plan a second route for the return journey, otherwise you'd be going up hill on the way back and therefore lose all the benefits previously gained. :duh:

Give it a go and reap the benefits.

Cliff

[T-Cut]

All you need to do is plan each journey carefully to ensure the entire route is down hill all the way. Obviously, you'll need to plan a second route for the return journey

Simple. Ensure your outward trip is started at dusk. That way the Earth is in the position where driving in the UK is all relativistically downhill. In other words, the UK is located on the left, downward sloping dark side of the Earth. When you return, start off in the early morning so you're always heading more or less into the sunrise. That's always downhill relativistically in the UK. When the sun finally gets overhead, your journey will be on the flat. Since most people make their car journeys in the overhead sunshine, they're missing out on the advantages invented by Albert Einstein in his Theory of Evertything.

TC

[hogweed]

And if you go fast enough, round and round the world, you’ll go backwards in time. Superman does it all the time. Then you’ll arrive at the point where you’ve just filled your tank up, and won’t have used any fuel at all.

[T-Cut]

I think this thread is wandering off topic and anyway, Superman hasn't been around for ages.

TC

[Darcydog]

Let us know how you get on.

You may like to check out the Subaru forums as my son used to talk about water injection on their cars. And I know WW2 fighter aircraft had water injectors for extra power boost when needed.

My understanding is that water vapour increases the fuel burn efficiency by adding two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom for every molecule of water injected.

The Oxygen enables a better burn (akin to having a turbo to push more air/oxygen in. And the extra Hydrogen allows the more complete burning of the fuel.

It also "steam cleans" the engine. Anyone who has stripped down a HGF engine cannot fail to be impressed at how clean the combustion chamber/s are around the failure.

[T-Cut]

My understanding is that water vapour increases the fuel burn efficiency by adding two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom for every molecule of water injected.

Since water is by far the largest product of combustion, it's thermodynamically unlikely that adding water at the front end will improve the process. Fuel combustion is a chemical oxidation reaction. Reaction rates are promoted by either removing one of the products or increasing one of the reactants. Certainly, water (H2O) doesn't separate/dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen/hydroxyl atoms/ions during this application.

What water injection does is improve the knock rating of the fuel. It does so by reducing the compression temperature, so preventing pre-ignition. Petrol engines normally can't use the high compression ratios of the diesel because of pre-ignition. If that can be reduced, then a higher compression ratio is possible. This provides greater efficiency (like a diesel) and greater power output. Obviously, a petrol engine needs some modification (an increased compression ratio) for the advantages of water injection to be fully exploited. This is what many military engines had/have.

TC

[Mike Noc]

But its water! its free! it falls from the sky. Who's making money? :D
Anyway I'll be steam cleaning my injectors next spring in situ ;)

Hope the cat doesn't get blocked up with any dislodged carbon Shawn, assuming the car still has a cat. :shrug:

[Shawn]

Hope the cat doesn't get blocked up with any dislodged carbon Shawn, assuming the car still has a cat. :shrug:
One of the reasons I want to do it while fully warmed up and running.

[spyder]

Since water is by far the largest product of combustion, it's thermodynamically unlikely that adding water at the front end will improve the process. Fuel combustion is a chemical oxidation reaction. Reaction rates are promoted by either removing one of the products or increasing one of the reactants. Certainly, water (H2O) doesn't separate/dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen/hydroxyl atoms/ions during this application.

TC

The Germans have found a way to separate them, and the container is not too bad either.:drool4:

QUANT e-Sportlimousine with nanoFLOWCELL® drive

https://mail.aol.com/webmail/getPart?uid=30157060&partId=2&saveAs=Mail+Attachment.jpeg

I know it is not quite the same, but at some stage water in some form will need to be used to power or supplement the power in transportation. How beneficial it is to the technology used in the internal combustion engine, will still be open to debate, but someone try with either good, bad or no results.

[T-Cut]

The Germans have found a way to separate them and the container is not too bad either.

But it's not what you think. The Quant e-Sport car runs (apparently) on power generated by ozmosis. Basically, you separate a tank of brine from a tank of water by a semi-permeable membrane. The different solutions either side create osmotic pressure, which drives the process. The pure water migrates through the membrane so the two solutions can try to become the same strength and reflects the way living cells operate. There an electric potential generated. In living cells it causes a migration of protons as I recall.
Osmosis (actually reverse osmosis) is widely used in the pharmaceuticals industry to purify specialty materials. I've done it myself. It's certainly an intriguing idea for running an engine, but don't expect them on the street any time soon.

The water separation method (electrolysis and the HOH brigade) is probably what most people think about regarding water powered cars. There's loads of fascinating stuff about it on YouTube.

TC

[COLVERT]

Let us know how you get on.

You may like to check out the Subaru forums as my son used to talk about water injection on their cars. And I know WW2 fighter aircraft had water injectors for extra power boost when needed.

My understanding is that water vapour increases the fuel burn efficiency by adding two Hydrogen atoms and one Oxygen atom for every molecule of water injected.

The Oxygen enables a better burn (akin to having a turbo to push more air/oxygen in. And the extra Hydrogen allows the more complete burning of the fuel.

It also "steam cleans" the engine. Anyone who has stripped down a HGF engine cannot fail to be impressed at how clean the combustion chamber/s are around the failure.

Please read post No 44.----:duh:

[COLVERT]

Simple. Ensure your outward trip is started at dusk. That way the Earth is in the position where driving in the UK is all relativistically downhill. In other words, the UK is located on the left, downward sloping dark side of the Earth. When you return, start off in the early morning so you're always heading more or less into the sunrise. That's always downhill relativistically in the UK. When the sun finally gets overhead, your journey will be on the flat. Since most people make their car journeys in the overhead sunshine, they're missing out on the advantages invented by Albert Einstein in his Theory of Everything.

TC

This is very true as the Earth is rotating around the sun at about 55,000 miles per hour.
The earth is rotating at around 1,000 mph so during the day you are going at about 56,000 mph and in the night at about 54,000mph.

Therefore you travel further in the day than at night and thus get more M's per gallon. QED.

Scientists---Pah----Who needs them ??------;)

[DerekS]

If it hadnt worked in the Merlin engines you probably wouldnt be able to discuss it now

:eek::eek:

[kaiser]

I can't think of anything more stupid to do to an engine except run it without oil !!!! :mad:

Think a bit about it. There can be absolutely no harm caused by it. If you think there can, then you don't drive in rain of heavy mist.
Also, if you go and study, you would find that many engines are run with injection of water. Spitfires used to do it. There are also power gains to be had.

Not quite as stupid as running without oil;).

Well I can see this has already been discussed later in the tread.

[kaiser]

Since water is by far the largest product of combustion, it's thermodynamically unlikely that adding water at the front end will improve the process. Fuel combustion is a chemical oxidation reaction. Reaction rates are promoted by either removing one of the products or increasing one of the reactants. Certainly, water (H2O) doesn't separate/dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen/hydroxyl atoms/ions during this application.

What water injection does is improve the knock rating of the fuel. It does so by reducing the compression temperature, so preventing pre-ignition. Petrol engines normally can't use the high compression ratios of the diesel because of pre-ignition. If that can be reduced, then a higher compression ratio is possible. This provides greater efficiency (like a diesel) and greater power output. Obviously, a petrol engine needs some modification (an increased compression ratio) for the advantages of water injection to be fully exploited. This is what many military engines had/have.

TC

There has been a lot of research around why water injection improves power in piston engines. One of the main reasons seems to be that water correctly atomised forms minute spheres, which then will be covered by fuel. IOW the surface area is increased by the addition of water, and the burning process is thus faster, allowing the spark to be fired closer to TDC, minimizing back pressure and heat loss and allowing for a longer expansion of fully burnt fuel.
This in addition to other positive features already mentioned.

[kaiser]

NO liquid - including diesel - is compressible, unless I've forgotten my "O" Level Physics... I imagine any proposed method of squirting water in atomises it, like a diesel injector does. Now, actually chucking a pile of water in - well, that would be very silly.

Whether it would actually do any good or not, I haven't got a clue. When I was a kid, we used to pull the heads off our motorbikes and hack vast amounts of carbon deposit off the top of the pistons with a screwdriver - but I'm fairly sure, with modern engines, this is unnecessary :D

Actually, I'm not sure it was even necessary then... :getmecoat:

You must have forgotten your O-levels.

[David Lawrence]

In diesel car magazine a number of years ago there was an article about the americans trial on water injection on their yellow school bus engines.

around the same time a guy working for one of the oil companies was working on oil and fuel additives and brought me some stuff called FX1 to try in my 218SD. He did a little demo where he took some diesel, some water, and then added a few drops of the FX.

After shaking it all up, the water appeared to have mixed with the diesel, as one homogenous liquid.

Convinced, i took the additive home and added a litre of water to my tank.

The car ran great, although not any differently as far as i could tell. The problem was that the additive cost more than the diesel did, and you needed a litre of it for every litre of water so no point at all.

It was only when i came to change the fuel filter that i got reaquainted with my water. Only about 1/4 of a litre though, so 3/4 went somewhere never to be seen again, and the car went on to 200,000 miles without any troubles before the body rotted away.

No idea if that additive ever took off, but i doubt it. I suppose that if it did indeed work, it is a way of getting water injected by combining it in the fuel. Cant think it would do the more modern injectors much good though. Those old pug diesel engines seemed happy running on anything.

[T-Cut]

After shaking it all up, the water appeared to have mixed with the diesel, as one homogenous liquid.

The additive was a powerful surfactant. When properly formulated, it's quite possible to 'dissolve' water in fluids with which it's normally incompatible. It's done all the time in everyday things like aerosol products for example. The propellant, perhaps a hydocarbon or equally hydrophobic fluorocarbon, has to be soluble in the stuff the can is delivering. You can do it the other way round as well. So with the right surfactant, hydrocarbons will 'dissolve' in water.

It was only when I came to change the fuel filter that I got reaquainted with my water. Only about 1/4 of a litre though, so 3/4 went somewhere never to be seen again

That's the result of separation by sheering. I referred tp 'dissolving' water in diesel, but it's not strictly so. What the surfactant produces is a microscopic dispersion of diesel droplets that are so small the mixture appears homogeneous. It's called solubilisation, but it's unstable unless perfectly made. It's easy to destroy some dispersions by applying a sheer force to them. Forcing it through the pores of the oil filter partially did the trick.

TC

[David Lawrence]

The additive was a powerful surfactant. When properly formulated, it's quite possible to 'dissolve' water in fluids with which it's normally incompatible. It's done all the time in everyday things like aerosol products for example. The propellant, perhaps a hydocarbon or equally hydrophobic fluorocarbon, has to be soluble in the stuff the can is delivering. You can do it the other way round as well. So with the right surfactant, hydrocarbons will 'dissolve' in water.



That's the result of separation by sheering. I referred tp 'dissolving' water in diesel, but it's not strictly so. What the surfactant produces is a microscopic dispersion of diesel droplets that are so small the mixture appears homogeneous. It's called solubilisation, but it's unstable unless perfectly made. It's easy to destroy some dispersions by applying a sheer force to them. Forcing it through the pores of the oil filter partially did the trick.

TC

I can still remember that guy coming around to see how i was getting on with it. His name was Brian and he had a very nice Rover. One of the older honda era ones with full leather.

That 218 diesel i used the stuff on certainly ran quieter and smoother than most similarly engined cars around at the time. It developed a bit of a leaking oil seal though which i thought could have been something to do with that FX stuff i was adding to the oil so i desisted from using it.

Have you heard of this FX then? It must be going back nearly 20 years now as that was a 1992 car. point is that even back then the concept of getting water through the engine was knocking around.

[T-Cut]

Have you heard of this FX then? It must be going back nearly 20 years now as that was a 1992 car. Point is that even back then the concept of getting water through the engine was knocking around.

Knocking around is an approprite term. The water injection process reduces pre-ignition (knock) by reducing induction air and compression temperatures.

I've not heard about that specific product, but I do know a fair bit about surfactants and emulsifiers and what they're used for. Yes, the water/fuel principle has been around for a long while. Some power stations run on an emulsion of bitumen and water.

TC

[kaiser]

"NO liquid - including diesel - is compressible, unless I've forgotten my "O" Level Physics.."

I think I might have mis-read this.:o

there can be two ways to read this:

No liquid, including Diesel, is compressible,
or
No, liquid, including Diesel, is compressible,

just to make sure, Diesel is incompressible (or very nearly so) in liquid form:D

[spyder]

They are compressible, but just a little bit. For example, liquid water changes its density (at ambient temperature) 0,024% with a change of 500 kPa in pressure.

If this were not the case, we could use cutting fluid in an hydraulic system, instead of hydraulic oil.

My family build a lot of the systems for De beers on the East rand in JHB, Kaiser, making industrial diamonds. The technology, gasses and liquids involved in this were something to behold, all because matter is compressible.

Admittedly the amount of pressure needed to compress water is beyond the range of your average piston ring and conrods. Introduced as steam into a system operating at above ambient temperatures, the circumstance may again change.

My two cents worth.:}

[suzublu]

I don't know about compressible & incompressible, but I find all this incomprehensible:duh::getmecoat::D

[spyder]

:group::iagree::iagree::wot:

I don't know about compressible & incompressible, but I find all this incomprehensible:duh::getmecoat::D

[Sector-9]

it does actually clean engine internals,but it has to be regulated,veg oil users do it to cure ring gumming.One guy had his dip stick blowing out due to ring gumming,he ran water injection by a crude system using a spare washer pump and bottle and did a fifty mile controlled run his crankcase back pressure dropped dramaticaly

This. I also used to run SVO in my 45 diesel, however after a few years of it it started idling very rough, as though on three cylinders (smoothed out once at a fast idle though) and being harder to start so I suspected ring gumming, especially as the engine is breathing quite heavily. I did the water thingy and it did make the engine a lot smoother and start easier, however it also turned the oil to mayonaise. Not a problem, thought I, I'll just take it for a blast to get the oil hot and the water will evaporate out of it (which did seem to work because it was the normal black colour again afterwards), however a week later my turbo bearings failed.:mad:

Now whilst I'd still consider both running on SVO and doing the water treatment, again I'd do an oil change immediately afterwards too. All things considered, it's a bit of a faff and I think I'll just stick to running standard diesel