MG V6 Possible Coolant Issue.

[cooper.mg190]

Hey all,

Couple of weeks ago I had to change my Rad, as the jack I was using slipped, and split the old one.

While I changing it I did a coolant flush, with Holts 2 part flush, I also noticed there were copper flecks in the old coolant, ???

Anyway, no problems until last week, I put my foot down (As you do) and got home and could smell the coolant, popped the bonnet and the was coolant all over the expansion tank, cleaned it up and drove normal, no problems,
As soon as I put my foot down again I had the same problem,

So thinking It was the Expansion Cap, so purchased a New one off Discount MG Rover Spares, put my foot down on the way home last night to test it, and yep, still leaking.

Any theories as to what the problem could be?

[lsmith10]

I also have copper fleks in my coolant?

[Dansrockin]

is it possible someone has used kseal or similar in the past?

[topman]

have you tried booting it, whilst it's stationary and having a look to see where it's coming from?

[chipsceola]

the only way as far as I know to have copper specks in the coolant is due to adding either K-Seal or a product of similar type, regrettably there is no age/mileage limit to the use of such quick fixes, it's as likely in an MG6 as it is in a 75/ZT.

Not good news for the new owner whatever the make/model/year or cost of the vehicle.

[cooper.mg190]

have you tried booting it, whilst it's stationary and having a look to see where it's coming from?

I haven't yet tbh, I'll have a look when I get to work tomorrow, the engine will be nice and hot, easier to see :)

[cooper.mg190]

the only way as far as I know to have copper specks in the coolant is due to adding either K-Seal or a product of similar type, regrettably there is no age/mileage limit to the use of such quick fixes, it's as likely in an MG6 as it is in a 75/ZT.

Not good news for the new owner whatever the make/model/year or cost of the vehicle.

That's what's worrying me, I might have to possibly look into replacing the engine, and maybe the whole coolant system, just to make sure that there's no trace of any cooper flecks, I hate It when people take short cuts with things :banghead:

[trikey]

That's what's worrying me, I might have to possibly look into replacing the engine, and maybe the whole coolant system, just to make sure that there's no trace of any cooper flecks, I hate It when people take short cuts with things :banghead:

Flush well with cooling system cleaner, that will remove the horrible stuff!

[T-Cut]

The implictions are there's been a head gasket failure it's been bodged using a sealant. One symptom of HGF can be frequent ejection of coolant at 'normal' running temperatures. The new pressure cap would only release coolant if the system reached 140kPa (about 21psi). To reach that by temperature alone (i.e. water vapour pressure) needs well over 120C. This would pop the red warning light, which doesn't seem to have happened.

I'd suggest you run with the trip screen in diagnostic mode to see what the actual running temperature gets to when you do a brisk drive. Check for coolant around the filler cap, but don't open it for 24 hours. When stone cold, open the cap and note any pressure release. There should be none.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the cooling fan. Ensure it works as it should.

TC

[cooper.mg190]

The implictions are there's been a head gasket failure it's been bodged using a sealant. One symptom of HGF can be frequent ejection of coolant at 'normal' running temperatures. The new pressure cap would only release coolant if the system reached 140kPa (about 21psi). To reach that by temperature alone (i.e. water vapour pressure) needs well over 120C. This would pop the red warning light, which doesn't seem to have happened.

I'd suggest you run with the trip screen in diagnostic mode to see what the actual running temperature gets to when you do a brisk drive. Check for coolant around the filler cap, but don't open it for 24 hours. When stone cold, open the cap and note any pressure release. There should be none.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the cooling fan. Ensure it works as it should.

TC

No warning lights etc, will check the diagnostic temp on my next run to work,

Just a side note, got to work today, popped the bonnet revved the engine, nothing until it got to the high revs and them the coolant gushed out of the coolant cap.

[Robson Rover Repair]

"cooperish" flecks have in my experience of owning 9 v6s now have always been few things.

Pipes rotting on inside.

Radiator core falling apart on inside.

Result of too strong ratio of oat in the engine.

Heater matrix failing like radiator.

The main pipes I've changed have been the two front subframe ones, how I've solved it was bumper and some panel off, drain whole system, remove each rubber pipe and inspect, clean or replace.

Then run a water hose through the various oil coolers etc to flush them out also.

Havnt had an issue yet since I did full engine out and flushed whole system, heater matrix out etc etc.

Did same on my silver v6 project, which hadn't had coolant change inn5 years before I got it,'s solved it instantly.

[cooper.mg190]

"cooperish" flecks have in my experience of owning 9 v6s now have always been few things.

Pipes rotting on inside.

Radiator core falling apart on inside.

Result of too strong ratio of oat in the engine.

Heater matrix failing like radiator.

The main pipes I've changed have been the two front subframe ones, how I've solved it was bumper and some panel off, drain whole system, remove each rubber pipe and inspect, clean or replace.

Then run a water hose through the various oil coolers etc to flush them out also.

Havnt had an issue yet since I did full engine out and flushed whole system, heater matrix out etc etc.

Did same on my silver v6 project, which hadn't had coolant change inn5 years before I got it,'s solved it instantly.

Hmm, sound like something I could try, It's had a new rad after my jack went through the old one, (Dont Ask), Not sure I want to spend anymore money atm, just in case It is the worst case. Might try a Cylinder pressure test over the week end.

[SD1too]

The implictions are there's been a head gasket failure it's been bodged using a sealant.
I'd say it's a variation on that theme. There's been a cooling system fault not properly investigated and diagnosed, so 'bodger man' has just added K-seal or equivalent. This then blocks the oil cooler or interferes with the thermostat and a head gasket is blamed.
.. revved the engine, nothing until it got to the high revs and them the coolant gushed out of the coolant cap.
Cliff,

As a start, I'd recommend that you disconnect the coolant hoses from the oil cooler and check it for foreign material. You could even temporarily join the two hoses together and repeat your test.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

I'd say it's a variation on that theme. There's been a cooling system fault not properly investigated and diagnosed, so 'bodger man' has just added K-seal or equivalent. This then blocks the oil cooler or interferes with the thermostat and a head gasket is blamed.

Cliff,

As a start, I'd recommend that you disconnect the coolant hoses from the oil cooler and check it for foreign material. You could even temporarily join the two hoses together and repeat your test.

Simon


Would it be worth me just completely stripping the cooling system? I.e. Oil cooler, heater matrix, Radiator, all pipes, change the thermostat (I Have a new one, and gaskets for the inlets into the block),

I will add that I have no mayo since starting work, the car is run 27.5 miles to work, and another back, so properly warmed up, I also have no other coolant loss apart from through the expansion cap,

[SD1too]

Would it be worth me just completely stripping the cooling system? I.e. Oil cooler, heater matrix, Radiator, all pipes, change the thermostat (I Have a new one, and gaskets for the inlets into the block)
Well, the problem with that approach is that:
(a) It's an awful lot of work at considerable expense and
(b) You'll never know what the problem was. :o

In my view, it's far better to do one thing at a time then observe and analyse the results. You can then form an informed view of the next step to take. So ...
... will check the diagnostic temp on my next run to work ..
Yes; we need to know the temperature of the coolant when it is ejected from the expansion tank cap at high revs.

Simon

[Robson Rover Repair]

I'd it's not your everyday car and you have a garage a days work will have it 100% sorted.

My advise would be to get replacement rubber pipes ready along with new clips etc so it's all sitting done.

Only awkward one really (well slam panel and bumper off but thsts not really awkward more just awk for God's sake) it's the heater matrix.

Again if you had a spate one clean and ready would make life lot handier.

Again as repeated above, will almost certainly be the subframe pipes rotting inside and going into the engine and moving through cooling system.

[cooper.mg190]

Hi all, ran the car to and from work today, kept it at a steady 65mph all the way to, and almost all the way home,

The temp fluctuated between 86 - 88 oC, at it's highest point which was as I pulled up at home, it reached 90 oC - total miles 33.8

I haven't tested the temp It ejects from yet, thats one for tomorrow, but there was no coolant round the cap or bottle when i checked.

Silly question, how much is a sub frame hose set going to cost, and whats the part number?

Radiator has already been changed, as I kinda broke the last one, and the V is my everyday car atm, might be looking at a diesel soon, but keeping the ZT,

[SD1too]

... kept it at a steady 65mph ... The temp fluctuated between 86 - 88 oC, at it's highest point ... it reached 90 oC - total miles 33.8
That's low and suggests to me that your thermostat isn't operating properly. I suspect that the K-seal may well be responsible for this.
... there was no coolant round the cap or bottle when I checked.
That indicates to me that we're not dealing with combustion gases in the coolant.
I haven't tested the temp It ejects from yet, thats one for tomorrow ...
I'd recommend that you watch the digital temperature display on every journey Cliff. We need to know whether the engine gets hot enough to explain the expansion tank cap valve opening.
Silly question, how much is a sub frame hose set going to cost, and whats the part number?
You're right, that is a silly question! ;) I think what Colin is referring to is the steel pipe assembly found between the bottom radiator hose and the oil cooler. With your running temperature in the high eighties, what evidence is there that there's a problem with these?
Speculatively renewing components just because another member had a problem with them is the route to depression and bankruptcy! :} By all means inspect them for corrosion, but I can't see how that's going to explain your intermittent ejection of coolant.

In my view, the next step is to note the temperature at which the ejection occurs and, if you can, feel the bottom radiator hose when it happens. Is it very hot or warm/cold?

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Thanks for the advice Simon, I'm at work this afternoon, I'll check the hose temperatures when I arrive, I'll also see what happens when I give the engine a good rev, and I'll note the temp the engine is running at while i'm there.

Fingers crossed things might not be as bad a s I thought :)

[cooper.mg190]

Evening all,

Engine ran again between 86 -88c, Got it upto 90 going through the Queensway,

At work I tested the pipes,

Bottom, warm, but could hold onto it,
Top pipe, Very Hot couldn't it for more than a few seconds,

Coolant ejecting the Expansion cap, at 88 - 90 - and above,

[SD1too]

Cliff; I think it's definitely time for you to drain your cooling system completely (don't omit the LH cylinder block drain plug) and flush it as thoroughly as you can to try to get rid of the K-seal.

I would also disconnect the oil cooler hoses and check carefully for blockages. One member found a huge lump of the stuff in there.

When you come to refill, you must follow the MGR procedure for the KV6 here (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1547805&postcount=15).

Simon

[SD1too]

Here's a useful post from Trevor (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=2126355&postcount=71).

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Just a little update,

I let the car run for a bit this morning, (My helper hasn't turned up so no work on it today) i noticed the coolant coming from under the cap before it had even hit 50c, with no reeving,
So i took the cap off, and bleed screw and left it to run, with a couple of towels round the expansion tank, at 89c the coolant starting coming out of the bleed hole, left it to run for a couple, then put the cap, and screw back on, let it run till the fan kicked in,

Now at this point I was talking with a friend and noticed the fan still running after about five mins, checked the diagnostic temp, 106c.
I revved the engine, and immediately, the temp dropped to, 86c, and the fan went off?
Turned the bleed screw and tons of air come out, did this a few times, and there was still loads of air, but I had no coolant coming out of the cap during high revs.



Here's a useful post from Trevor (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=2126355&postcount=71).

Simon

Will also be looking at this hopefully in the week, trying to get a few days off work to have a good look at the problems that are popping up.

But i'm now at the point where i'm losing faith and interest in the car,
The abs fault light has come on, although the brakes feel fine.
And after looking at the rear glass, which is leaking bad, i've noticed the glass is coming away from the metal frame it sits on.

So at the moment im considering buying a diesel for work, and either selling the car, or trying to garage it, and rebuild it.

[cooper.mg190]

Hey all, sorry it's been a while,

Today I finally got under the bonnet,

I changed the thermostat, all pipes, coolant sensor, old one looked terrible,

Flushed the engine 6 times before it began to clear.

Anyway, got coolant in, and ran it, bled it, for about 10mins, yep 10mins,
turned the engine off, checked the coolant after it had cooled, topped up, ran the engine, and bled it again,

So here's the problem,

I noticed the fan had been on a loong time during bleeding,
Checked the on board temp, 113c. Engine off, bare in mind the bleed screw was still undone, and still loads of air coming out.

The amount of air in the system leads my to believe that the Gasket Might have failed,

I'm leaving it over night, and will be doing a couple of checks tomorrow,
Will take it for a gentle spin, and see if the temp spikes,

Will add as a positive, the coolant has stopped ejecting from the cap,
Something good had to come out of it :}

[Organiser]

Cliff,

I do not run the engine when I bled the cooling system now, you still have an air lock!

Happy to give you a hand with this.

Let me know.

Tom.

[SD1too]

The amount of air in the system leads my to believe that the Gasket Might have failed ...
I doubt it Cliff. All the evidence points to the K-seal. If you study recent very interesting threads by murphyv310 he has had a very similar problem to yours. He flushed his cooling system repeatedly using a specific flushing fluid donated by his garage. Unfortunately we don't know exactly what it is, but if you look at the Comma website they have such products available and they are obtainable by most good local motor factors.

Also, as Tom quite correctly indicates, you should not be running the engine with the bleed screw removed. Here is the official MGR proceedure (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1547805&postcount=15) for the KV6 (previously provided with strong recommendation at post number 21).

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Morning all,

I checked the coolant level this morning, and added another 2 1/2 liters,
left it to settle while i checked the oil level, and some cleaning up.

Settle just under the max level, took her for a spin, at low revs, and all seemed ok, Digital temperature was reading between 96-98c until i stopped at a set of lights, then jumped up to 106c,

Pulled off from the light thinking i'll pull over and leave her to cool down, but as soon as i pulled away, the temp dropped straight back down to 96-98,
Temp in the cabin increased quite nice, not at peak, so must be an air lock.

When i pulled up at home i checked under the bonnet,
Coolant around the expansion tank,
and pretty much no pressure at all in the coolant pipe, could squeeze them no problem at all.

I'll leave her to settle agian and check the coolant level, but i'm not holding for any luck now, losing my love the for the car.

[cooper.mg190]

Just a quick one,

Would a vacuum flush, refill help?
If so, does anyone know anywhere in birmingham, or within 30-40 miles know where I could get it done?

Thanks.

[DMGRS]

Vacuum filling the V6 has been recommended as the method of choice, as there's so many places air can get trapped and impede flow.
Terry @ TS Autos should have the kit. http://www.tsautos.com/

[murphyv310]

Hi.
Three things come to mind here.
1 There is still a blockage, use a flushing chemical and do it two or three times until the results are clear, don't forget the block drain point.
2 Water flow is poor, revving the engine ups flow and drops temperature.
3 Your not bleeding the system properly, Dont run the engine with the bleed screw out it can induce air into the system. Once water flows out of the bleed orifice in a steady stream refit the screw, keep the expansion tank fully topped up to the neck, once you've done this raise the tank up as high as possible without straining the hoses and refill again to the neck, squeeze the big hose on top of the radiator to expel any residual air.
If you still have problems there is always the chance of gasket problems or a broken impeller on the water pump.

[SD1too]

I checked the coolant level this morning, and added another 2 1/2 litres ..
:eek: Cliff, that's a huge amount of coolant. You need to add that with the bleed screw undone to expel air, and the expansion tank raised as MGR specifies.
... until i stopped at a set of lights, then jumped up to 106c ...
Was the radiator fan running? It should have been.
... losing my love the for the car.
Cliff, I sympathise, but you need to work through the recommendations you've received logically. At the moment you just seem to be refilling it with coolant, driving, and hoping for the best.

You need to flush the cooling system as I recommended this morning, thoroughly and repeatedly, using a flushing agent. This appears to have worked for Trevor (murphyv310) and I suspect that you have the ssame problem as he did: K seal. :mad: This dreadful stuff always seems to result in incomprehensible fault symptoms which are eventually put down by some, but not me, to head gasket failure. I also don't subscribe to the broken water pump impeller theory. Wide temperature variations related to road speed, and ejection of coolant, can occur with inadequate pressurisation (I had this with my other Rover years ago and the solution was cheap and simple, but it took a lot of finding).

If you're losing the will Cliff, please take your car to TS Autos in Stourbridge as Trevor recommends.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

:eek: Cliff, that's a huge amount of coolant. You need to add that with the bleed screw undone to expel air, and the expansion tank raised as MGR specifies.

Was the radiator fan running? It should have been.

Cliff, I sympathise, but you need to work through the recommendations you've received logically. At the moment you just seem to be refilling it with coolant, driving, and hoping for the best.

You need to flush the cooling system as I recommended this morning, thoroughly and repeatedly, using a flushing agent. This appears to have worked for Trevor (murphyv310) and I suspect that you have the ssame problem as he did: K seal. :mad: This dreadful stuff always seems to result in incomprehensible fault symptoms which are eventually put down by some, but not me, to head gasket failure. I also don't subscribe to the broken water pump impeller theory. Wide temperature variations related to road speed, and ejection of coolant, can occur with inadequate pressurisation (I had this with my other Rover years ago and the solution was cheap and simple, but it took a lot of finding).

If you're losing the will Cliff, please take your car to TS Autos in Stourbridge as Trevor recommends.

Simon

Hey again,

Fan did kick in, at around 102,
Had the bleed screw undone, with the tank raised. Havent checked it again since this morning, but will be leaving for work soon.

Not lost the will just yet, just frustrated,
I'm going to get it booked in and try and have it looked at, only problem is the Zt is my only car for work at the moment,

I'll update later.

[murphyv310]

Hey again,

Fan did kick in, at around 102,
Had the bleed screw undone, with the tank raised. Havent checked it again since this morning, but will be leaving for work soon.

Not lost the will just yet, just frustrated,
I'm going to get it booked in and try and have it looked at, only problem is the Zt is my only car for work at the moment,

I'll update later.

It's best to close off the bleed screw then raise the tank topped up to the brim then give the hose above the radiator a few squeezes to expel trapped air, leaving the bleed screw out won't allow you to get a decent head of water in the tank.
Trust me this works.

Under no circumstances run the engine while bleeding at this point, only when you've completed this stage should you run the engine.

[cooper.mg190]

It's best to close off the bleed screw then raise the tank topped up to the brim then give the hose above the radiator a few squeezes to expel trapped air, leaving the bleed screw out won't allow you to get a decent head of water in the tank.
Trust me this works.

Under no circumstances run the engine while bleeding at this point, only when you've completed this stage should you run the engine.

Thanks murphy, will do this now me thinks,

[cooper.mg190]

Ok guys some good news,

After topping up and running the car for the last week, I've had no more problems, the temp sits between 96-98 on the motorway,
So either the stat or sensor were faulty,
My heating is lovely, no ejection or loss of coolant,

I will be doing another flush, the weekend. I've ordered three bottles of flush that have been recommended to me. ( will pop the brand in once it's been tested)

But so far so good. Thank you for that advice and patience,
I'll update again over the weekend, but fingers crossed this issue is resolved.

[murphyv310]

Hi.
96-98 on the motorway is a little too high. Although its only say 3-5 degrees up, the headroom is diminished, if you get to 100c the fan will engage at the low speed and if the temperature doesn't drop to 95 it will continue to run. The cooling system isn't designed to do that.
Report back after another flush please.
Where did you buy your thermostat?

[cooper.mg190]

Hi.
96-98 on the motorway is a little too high. Although its only say 3-5 degrees up, the headroom is diminished, if you get to 100c the fan will engage at the low speed and if the temperature doesn't drop to 95 it will continue to run. The cooling system isn't designed to do that.
Report back after another flush please.
Where did you buy your thermostat?

I picked purchased it off ebay, not long after I purchased the car,
But wasn't having any problems so decided not to change it.
Genuine item, came with all parts in MGR packaging with the part reference numbers.

I'm in work tomorrow, so will have the computer running to and from work,
will keep an eye on the temp.

[cooper.mg190]

Not a good day today, on my way to work, Temp on the way to brum, was between 93-95, great i thought not as high anymore,

Gets on the M6-42, temp started to rise, so gets to work, and just as I pull in the temp hits 114c, so turned the engine off, and checked the bay, coolant everywhere. Checked the expansion cap, loose?
I know i tightened it up this morning before i left for work.

Before leaving work I checked the coolant level, and topped it back up, took almost all the coolant I had, 4ltrs,

On my way home, taking it easy at 60, the temp started climbing again.
I pulled off the motorway, and into a local Morrisons, as I pulled into a parking bay, needle hit red, engine off, but left the fan running,
hood up, and coolant everywhere.

I picked up some deionised water, topped up left it while I had something to eat,
I noticed that there are loads of different sized flacks of copper, and other debris in the expansion bottle. but thats a job for sunday.
Checked level, cap back on, and made sure it was tight,
Coolant level stayed between 93-102c, fan popped on at 100c, and cooled down.
I'm thinking either the cap I purchased is no good, or as silly as it sounds the expansion tank is knackered.

[T-Cut]

Way back in Post 9, I suggested the following:

The implictions are there's been a head gasket failure it's been bodged using a sealant. One symptom of HGF can be frequent ejection of coolant at 'normal' running temperatures.

When stone cold, open the cap and note any pressure release. There should be none.

Did you do the cold pressure check?

TC

[SD1too]

I noticed that there are loads of different sized flakes of copper, and other debris in the expansion bottle. but thats a job for sunday.
Good evening Cliff,

Please excuse the emphasis applied to the quote, but I don't want you to miss the explanation for your continuing problems. Flakes of copper indicate that someone has put K-seal or the like in your cooling system. It is probably playing havoc with the thermostat and/or radiator and causing overheating.

Can I refer you back to my advice of eight days ago:
You need to flush the cooling system as I recommended this morning, thoroughly and repeatedly, using a flushing agent. This appears to have worked for Trevor (murphyv310) and I suspect that you have the same problem as he did: K seal. :mad: This dreadful stuff always seems to result in incomprehensible fault symptoms which are eventually put down by some, but not me, to head gasket failure.

You need to start flushing Cliff this weekend, and as Trevor will tell you, it will require many many sessions. :o If I were you I would also remove the coolant hoses from the oil cooler and check for a blockage there. It's fairly easy to do and other members have found slugs of sealant in there, obviously resulting in the sort of overheating you're experiencing.

Simon

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I totally agree with Simon.
You MUST spend time and flush the system out properly, whether you use Rad flush by the bottle or use TFR or a dishwasher tablet it makes little difference. once completed use as much water as you can to rinse out.
Mine has settled down, its a little hot running but no overheating and that's around town, climbing steep hills on kickdown, booting on the motorway etc my last thing is another clean out of the heater matrix over the weekend.
This next bit is in red!
Whatever chemical you use to dissolve contamination in your cooling system you MUST thoroughly drain the system at the radiator bottom hose and the crankcase drain point after. You must rinse the system at least twice by running the engine till its up to temperature each time, dump the water and refill when cool. It's a full weekend job, don't do it by half's put aside the time to do it properly. That's something I've learned by my own mistakes.

[gazcaz]

Good evening Cliff,

Please excuse the emphasis applied to the quote, but I don't want you to miss the explanation for your continuing problems. Flakes of copper indicate that someone has put K-seal or the like in your cooling system. It is probably playing havoc with the thermostat and/or radiator and causing overheating.


Simon

Why dont people rectify things properly does my head in K Seal whatever seal is not the answer never....OP good luck

[cooper.mg190]

Hey guys,

Sorry I seem to be going round in circles with this,

I'll be starting the flush, weather permitting, tomorrow when i get home from work.
I have three bottle of flush to use, and will be going until it runs clear.

Luckily I don't have to put anymore stress on my cooling system, and I have the use of my father in laws MX-5, once i get home i'll start the task of flushing, and with luck I'll have good news,

Way back in Post 9, I suggested the following:



Did you do the cold pressure check?

TC

just an initial pressure release, maybe 0.1 of a second. but nothing major, nothing I havent had from cars in the past,

Good evening Cliff,

Please excuse the emphasis applied to the quote, but I don't want you to miss the explanation for your continuing problems. Flakes of copper indicate that someone has put K-seal or the like in your cooling system. It is probably playing havoc with the thermostat and/or radiator and causing overheating.

Can I refer you back to my advice of eight days ago:


You need to start flushing Cliff this weekend, and as Trevor will tell you, it will require many many sessions. :o If I were you I would also remove the coolant hoses from the oil cooler and check for a blockage there. It's fairly easy to do and other members have found slugs of sealant in there, obviously resulting in the sort of overheating you're experiencing.

Simon

Hi simon, I'll be getting all this done,
Luckily I have four days off work,


I appreciate all the help, and patience everyone has given me,
I'm not giving up on the car, If i don't have any luck with the flush, i'll be booking it in at a Rover Mg specialist, (TS Autos) and have it looked at.

Thanks again guys.

[SD1too]

Excellent Cliff! Please let us all know how it goes. Don't forget the cylinder block drain plug in the left-hand bank. ;)

Simon :}

[Robson Rover Repair]

Cliff if I was you I would also purchase a replacement coolant cap new. It sounds to me like your old one has been through a lot recently and it doesn't take much to upset worn o rings on them.

[cooper.mg190]

Hey all, quick update,

Couldn't do anything yesterday, so started the flush today,

1st cooling system flush, I used a bit of advice from my father in law, who had the V6 Rover Sterling. He said, after pulling the bottom hose, keeping running water through the system, so i did. after a couple of minutes, I removed the second pipe from the oil cooler, and did the same again, and noted a load of gunk, in the bottom of the bucket. So did this for a while, then switched pipe, used a piece of spare hose attached to the expansion bottle for this part and did the same again till the oil cooler was clear.

2nd cooling system flush, Loads of debris, and copper flecks,

3rd flush, just water, again debris and flecks,

4th cooling system flush, a bit of debris,

Unfortunately I ran out of time, as had things planned today,
So took the expansion bottle of and left it in the sink, with a dishwasher tablet thrown in. I gave it a good shake , and loads of copper flecks come out, repeated this process about four time, now its almost spotless.

Tomorrow i'll be finishing of the flushing process.
And filling with oat.

I do have a couple of problems though, my bleed screw is knackered, so going to need to replace that.
And the new expansion cap is completely kaput, not holding any fluid in at all, had the cap on while i was shaking the expansion and water was pouring out of the cap.

On a good note, there is nothing wrong with my old cap. :)

[SD1too]

Well at least you can say that you've had a rewarding day Cliff.
... my bleed screw is knackered, so going to need to replace that.
Land Rover part number PYP 10008L apparently. :}
And the new expansion cap is completely kaput ... had the cap on while i was shaking the expansion and water was pouring out of the cap.
:eek: That won't have helped to keep the overheating at bay either. :o

I know it's not much fun for you, but all this is very helpful to understand what is happening when V6s overheat for no obvious reason, so thanks Cliff.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Thanks simon,

I've been looking for the bleed screw for a couple of days now,
Might try one of these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Defender-Td5-Radiator-Top-Hose-Bleed-Screw-Red-PYP10008Red-/371099884436?hash=item566746db94:g:zrgAAOSwDlBTwBK X

Much prefer the allen key, to a flat screwdriver,

[SD1too]

Much prefer the allen key ...
It looks like Torx to me Cliff, and in my experience the small sizes offer no advantage over a slotted head other than a nicer appearance.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Just noticed that, found a standard allen head, gonna give it a try, :)

And for another update,

I flushed the car another four times this morning, the last flush was just water, no debris or any flecks. :),
I popped the new coolant in, ran the car to temp, and will be leaving it for a couple of hours to settle.
I'm ordering another coolant cap, and the bleed screw. And fingers crossed i'll be adding a final post the end of the week, with good news,

Big thank you to everyone, for there help and patience, :bowdown:


Also this is the coolant flush I used,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221869677749?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Done a very good job from the looks of things :)

[cooper.mg190]

Well guys, I have some very good news, and some very bad news,

Good news, since the flush I to a little under 100 miles, at various speeds and acceleration, No coolant round the cap :)

Bad/Terrible news, On my way home from work, I swerved to a taxi in Birmingham, and bounced the car off a high curb,
As a result my passenger front wheel is pushed right up against the rear of the arch and the wheel is mangled.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20151127_105225_zps0q0whn0f.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20151127_105225_zps0q0whn0f.jpg.html)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20151127_105231_zpsfr7mxphw.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20151127_105231_zpsfr7mxphw.jpg.html)
http://imgur.com/iy23p7g
Havent had time to check the damage yet, :mad:

[DMGRS]

Damn, that's a shame - I saw this on Facebook. :(
Hopefully just a front lower arm, fingers crossed for you.

[SD1too]

This is when your insurance company reveals its true colours Cliff. :o

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Hey simon,

Won't be going through the insurance, got it towed back by an independent company,
And fingers crossed it's just the lower arm, just need to get the car up and have a look.

[SD1too]

Won't be going through the insurance ...
I'm just concerned about the apparent bodywork damage to the wing at the impact point with the tyre. That's going to be expensive to rectify.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

The damage isn't too bad,
The lower arm is split, which seems to have taken the full brunt of things.
Wheel is completely knackered,
Drop link is slightly bent,
Minimal damage to the wing, easy to pull out.

Will be back on the road soon, and taken to my local mechanic to check over.

[cooper.mg190]

Car has been back on the road for about two weeks now, running well, :)

Have some pics to pop on tomorrow,

[stevenicks]

Glad to hear that you are now up and running Cliff. Just hope that you now have some good luck for a change:}

[cooper.mg190]

I no longer have the coolant flowing out the cap,
But I do have coolant in the V, seems like once one thing is fixed something else pops up on this car,

Did I mention I have mayo on the oil filler cap, thought just condensation leave it, check it in a couple of days, I now have mayo all round the filler cap, and inside the rocker cover,
Doing an oil change soon, will see how it goes after that

:-(

[murphyv310]

I no longer have the coolant flowing out the cap,
But I do have coolant in the V, seems like once one thing is fixed something else pops up on this car,

Did I mention I have mayo on the oil filler cap, thought just condensation leave it, check it in a couple of days, I now have mayo all round the filler cap, and inside the rocker cover,
Doing an oil change soon, will see how it goes after that

:-(

Hi.
"Mayo" can be caused by short runs and the engine not up to normal running temperature, also check the breather pipes and the gauze filters and pin hole in the rocker covers.
Do a run of about 20 miles and check the OBD temperature and see what you get on a run, lower than 88 its getting a bit too low any lower and I'd plump for a faulty thermostat, aim for 91-94c on the motorway.
If the mayo doesn't clear with an oil change and a decent run check the oil cooler for internally leaking, bar that it "could" be HGF.

[kaiser]

A good reason for mayonnaise is leaking inlet manifold gaskets. Try and see if the bolts holding need nipping up.

I said "nipping" -- not a hard knock with a five pound hammer:Snow:

[cooper.mg190]

Hi.
"Mayo" can be caused by short runs and the engine not up to normal running temperature, also check the breather pipes and the gauze filters and pin hole in the rocker covers.
Do a run of about 20 miles and check the OBD temperature and see what you get on a run, lower than 88 its getting a bit too low any lower and I'd plump for a faulty thermostat, aim for 91-94c on the motorway.
If the mayo doesn't clear with an oil change and a decent run check the oil cooler for internally leaking, bar that it "could" be HGF.

I'm just waiting for the filters, and have purchased 10w-40 instead this time around.
In regards to running, I'm doing a 50+ mile round trip to and from work, depends which motorway I use.

Where abouts are the "Pin Holes" on the rocker cover?

I'm guessing the filters inside the rocker cover are item 14, and there are two front bank, and two rear?
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID001711

[cooper.mg190]

A good reason for mayonnaise is leaking inlet manifold gaskets. Try and see if the bolts holding need nipping up.

I said "nipping" -- not a hard knock with a five pound hammer:Snow:

Thanks Kaiser, I need to check where the coolant in the V is coming from, so will give them a slight turn, see how it goes from there.

[cooper.mg190]

Sorry to say guys, but its starting to look more like HGF.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160106_1437371_zps1pqsiupl.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160106_1437371_zps1pqsiupl.jpg.html)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160106_1437431_zpsvvbujh6g.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160106_1437431_zpsvvbujh6g.jpg.html)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160106_1437461_zpsabtikw8g.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160106_1437461_zpsabtikw8g.jpg.html)

[Organiser]

Have you checked the oil cooler is not leaking oil into the cooling system?

Tom.

[SD1too]

Have you checked the oil cooler is not leaking oil into the cooling system?
:wot: :iagree:
This is far more likely on a V6.

Simon

[murphyv310]

Have you checked the oil cooler is not leaking oil into the cooling system?

Tom.

A very good point. Bypass it in the first instance, mine has been bypassed for three months with no problem, it'll certainly rule it out.

[cooper.mg190]

How do you bypass the oil cooler?
Any threads that can help?

[cooper.mg190]

Are the oil cooler's easy enough to remove?
Not really thought about it. But would it be better to replace it, rather than bypass?

[murphyv310]

How do you bypass the oil cooler?
Any threads that can help?


There is most likely many ways. I removed the hoses and metal rail pipes from mine and got a suitable elbow made up in my friendly engineering shop to connect the hose with the bleed screw (Bottom hose) directly to the radiator bottom outlet.
I'll be leaving it that way as it works perfectly, in our cool climate I doubt an oil cooler is needed anyway.

If you tow or use the car to its full potential on a regular basis, perhaps it's best to reconnect the cooler if found to be OK.

[SD1too]

How do you bypass the oil cooler?
Get under the car Cliff and have a look. Basically you disconnect the inlet and outlet coolant hoses and join them together. You don't need a "How to ...". You'll have to improvise but it's only a temporary measure to prove that the oil cooler is responsible before buying a new one.

Simon

[genpk]

The v6 engine is mostly pretty bullet proof head gasket wise but it can happen.I cooked mine once but sorted it out,was the fan and thermostat, changed them ,car came back to life and has been fine for years since with no obvious side affects.
Having said that the picture of the cap with that much mayo on it is certainly cause for concern.
Obviously the K seal must have been put in the system for some previous issue so lets hope its not HGF. I have heard on the odd occassion of the liners slipping and people using some coolant sealants to seal this up.
Originally I would have put my money on a faulty thermostat but now with mayo in the system could be a few things.
As the coolant system seems to have been let run down maintanence wise over time the oil cooler could have corroded through to the water jacket.
One car I had had corroded through one of the blanking plates on the heads and was leaking a bit at a time, hard to locate as it right at the back corner of the head,obviously previous owners didnt put much inhibitor in it.
Get a pressure test done for exhaust gasses etc in the system and that will give you a good pointer.

[SD1too]

Cliff,

I believe that with the amount of mayonnaise you have, the oil cooler is going to be the culprit. I'd therefore like to comment on two things Peter has said.
I have heard on the odd occassion of the liners slipping ..
This theory is offered regularly and it puzzles me. The liners rest upon a shelf, so there is nowhere they can "slip" to, surely. But more importantly, no-one has ever admitted to stripping a KV6 and providing evidence of the so-called slipped liners. I fear that it is all hearsay. Now that will no doubt cause a riot! :)
Get a pressure test done for exhaust gasses etc in the system and that will give you a good pointer.
I'm unconvinced by these tests. Many people have had them carried out and 99% of the time the result seems to indicate the presence of exhaust gases, even when there are no accompanying symptoms of head gasket failure!
Cliff, my advice is to stick with the oil cooler by-pass test for now. Don't be distracted or over-complicate the diagnosis.

Simon

[T-Cut]

The unexplained coolant ejection hasn't really been addressed, which is worrying.

TC

[SD1too]

The unexplained coolant ejection hasn't really been addressed, which is worrying.
Cliff has found copper flakes which show that a cooling system 'sealant' has been used in the past. We know from other members' experiences that what follows are a combination of symptoms which make little sense, and pressurisation and coolant ejection are two of them.

murphyv310 has documented in some detail that the dedication needed to remove this contamination, and the process is beyond most people's patience. It's a much easier option to cry "HGF!" and walk away from the problem.

I repeat what I said in my last post. Cliff should test or replace his oil cooler, as he wishes, and not be distracted from the task of eliminating this sudden severe oil and coolant mixing.

Simon

[Organiser]

Having replaced two V6 oil coolers, the amount shown in the pics is nothing to what was in my Typhoon's engine when the oil cooler went. On a drive over to Arctic's house (10 miles) it put about four litres of engine oil into the system and came out like a Cappuccino fountain when I took the header tank cap off...:eek:

The cheapest new 190 oil cooler that I found was £204 plus postage.


Tom.

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I totally agree with Simon on the location of liners. They have to be positively located at their base, simply put if they weren't you'd loose any sealing from the head gasket. Wet and damp liners must be securely located they cannot "slip".

Regarding the oil cooler if it's discovered to be faulty there is no need to rush out and buy one so long as you have securely bypassed it and there is no chance of any coolant leaks.

[cooper.mg190]

Ok guys will try a bypass on the cooler on my next day off, luckily I now have a diesel to get me to and from work,
I can now address the issues, without (hopefully) anymore problems,

Can I just ask what the inside diameter of the cooling pipes that connect to the oil cooler,
I'll do a simple by pass on that, and figure the oil pipes out,

If it is the oil cooler I might go for an aftermarket one,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-ZR-ZS-ZT-K-SERIES-KV6-MOCAL-13-19-ROW-ENGINE-OIL-COOLER-KIT-ZO-13-16UNF-/121385777134?hash=item1c4327f7ee:g:adQAAOxy63FS0Cn 3

[cooper.mg190]

Hey all, quick update,

Been out this morning, (first day off since christmas), and had a look at the silver inlets under the inlet Manifold,
All the bolts I checked were lose, :(. I'm got a couple of days off soon, and will be taking the mani off, and get these tightened up properly.

Can anyone help me out with the bolts recommended torque please, and is it worth applying a dab of locktight?

In regards to the oil cooler, I'm waiting on some joiners, as soon as they arrive i'll try the bypass,

Fingers crossed she'll be back to normal asap, then i'll spend the money on getting the belts and clutch done :)

[SD1too]

Can anyone help me out with the bolts recommended torque please ..
25 Nm Cliff. A selection of wobble extensions and universal joints for use with your 3/8 in. drive socket set will be useful.
... and is it worth applying a dab of locktight?
I never have. I think that the likely reason for the looseness is that a torque wrench wasn't used.

Simon

[Ps3000]

Hi.
I totally agree with Simon on the location of liners. They have to be positively located at their base, simply put if they weren't you'd loose any sealing from the head gasket. Wet and damp liners must be securely located they cannot "slip".


So do I - I've got my V6 engine in bits at the moment - there's no way for the liners to slip when everything's in place.

[SD1too]

... I've got my V6 engine in bits at the moment - there's no way for the liners to slip when everything's in place.
Thanks for this John. You're one of the very few who has actually removed a KV6 cylinder head, and there's nothing like direct practical experience.

Simon

[T-Cut]

- - - there's no way for the liners to slip when everything's in place.

Which begs the question how do liners that were originally a few thou proud of the block become flush? Clearly they don't 'slip', but they obviously move. The shoulder on which they stand becomes depressed, presumably due to (thermal?) softening of the shoulder area and the compressive forces holding the engine together. The reciprocation of the pistons will exaccerbate the slackening. The shoulder thus becomes lower in the block. This is sometimes corrected by the placement of shims under the liners.

TC

[cooper.mg190]

I'll finally be getting the bypass done this week, had a rough couple of weeks, poor weather etc, working, (feels like thats the only place I live these days,
But I have booked some holiday, and plan on spending a couple of my days off, sorting these Issues out.
I just need to figure my oil cooler bypass method out,

[cooper.mg190]

Well, where to start,
By pass done, purchased a coolant hose U, and some hose connectors, drained the coolant and fitted the bypass hose,
Refilled, Left overnight, topped up, left to run for around 30mins, so ice and warm,
Gave the engine a slight rev, about 2000rpm,
And started to get steam out the engine bay, coolant all over the expansion bottle, and floor, :mad:

I'm going to start looking for another ZT, as I now believe that this is HGF, sad day :cry:

[SD1too]

I'm going to start looking for another ZT, as I now believe that this is HGF, sad day :cry:
Without trawling through eighty two posts again :o I think you have severe mayonnaise don't you? If so, then you've ruled out the oil cooler so a head gasket failure does seem a distinct possibility.

However, this is not a reason to abandon the car! Why don't you fix it?

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Without trawling through eighty two posts again :o I think you have severe mayonnaise don't you? If so, then you've ruled out the oil cooler so a head gasket failure does seem a distinct possibility.

However, this is not a reason to abandon the car! Why don't you fix it?

Simon

Yeah the Mayo built up quite a lot, since all the flushes,
My options are to replace the car,
Or spend a sum of money on the car to rebuild the engine, plus the brakes and abs sensors need changing,
Need to talk with the accountant (Misses) and see what she wants me to do.
My worry is having a cracked, warped head, ad the heads themselves are quite difficult to get hold of.

[kaiser]

Steam from the radiator and water spewing out the filler does not come from a broken oil cooler.

They come from head gasket failure.

That can be repaired too, though.

[T-Cut]

They come from head gasket failure.

Indeed. Physics can't be wrong.

TC

[SD1too]

My worry is having a cracked, warped head ...
I'd say Cliff, try to resist inventing problems in your mind for which there is no evidence. You might as well worry that your rear suspension trailing arm mounting is terminally corroded.

Steam from the radiator and water spewing out the filler does not come from a broken oil cooler.
It can do, if the cooler is blocked with K-seal, not to mention a closed thermostat. But the mayonnaise is surely the evidence of primary importance with Cliff's car.

Indeed. Physics can't be wrong.
Oh it can. Understanding of science is constantly changing. Electricity now flows in the opposite direction and does the NHS practise humoralist medicine?

Simon

[T-Cut]

Indeed. Physics can't be wrong.

Oh it can. Understanding of science is constantly changing.

Simon, that must be the silliest thing you've ever said about a cooling system.

TC

[murphyv310]

Oh it can. Understanding of science is constantly changing. Electricity now flows in the opposite direction

Simon

I thought that a was a funny statement. Its always flowed in the same direction and always will do!
The theory was dispelled really when the Diode valve was invented. "Electrons flow from the Negative Cathode (filament back then) to the Anode which is positive.
Then of course with transistors (three legged fuses) we have holes and electrons to consider. One thing for sure there are many theories that can easily be rubbished later on.
So what theory can we come up with for our KV6 cooling systems as to why they overheat! :eek::D

[murphyv310]

Which begs the question how do liners that were originally a few thou proud of the block become flush? Clearly they don't 'slip', but they obviously move. The shoulder on which they stand becomes depressed, presumably due to (thermal?) softening of the shoulder area and the compressive forces holding the engine together. The reciprocation of the pistons will exaccerbate the slackening. The shoulder thus becomes lower in the block. This is sometimes corrected by the placement of shims under the liners.

TC

The question indeed!
The liner is most likely moving as the material where the liner is located at its bottom end is soft or not substantial enough. In an overheat situation the liner is likely to be far hotter than the alloy block and will expand to a greater than normal degree. It's pushing against a bolted down lump of metal (the head) and will take the easy route, the location at the bottom of the liner!

[SD1too]

Simon, that must be the silliest thing you've ever said about a cooling system.
It's a general philosophy, as indeed was your post that "Physics can't be wrong", not a comment specifically on a cooling system.

I thought that a was a funny statement. Its always flowed in the same direction and always will do!
You've missed my point Trevor. Man's theory of current flow has changed. You're old enough to remember when an electric current was said to flow from positive to negative. Then a new idea was formulated:
"Electrons flow from the Negative Cathode ... to the Anode which is positive.
Whoops! So the new theory was that this electron stream was, in fact, the same phenonemon which was previously called "an electric current" and that posed a huge problem. How can a previous 'fact' be changed into a new 'fact' without rewriting all the text books? The solution was to keep the old 'fact' (now no longer believed to be correct) and call it "conventional current".
... there are many theories that can easily be rubbished later on.

Yes, and that goes for today's theories too! Nothing is unassailable. Scientific progress depends upon that.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

After looking at the cost of everything I need to get her back on the road, the decision was made to replace it,
Plus as my misses said, one thing gets fixed, then something else goes on the car, plus I don't have the time I used to have,

[kaiser]

There are certain parts of physics that are so well trodden and thoroughly!!! proven, only a novice or a person with no real understanding would question them!.
One of these is basic thermodynamics and especially how pressure and temperature are related in a closed system. This has been basic knowledge for several centuries and is a corner stone of steam engine development.

Harping on the same issue without leaning is trivial and borders on insanity.

But look it up pv=nRT

That is Pressure x Volume = constant x Temperature (Kelvin)
That is, in constant Volume: p= (nRT)/V

So, in short: p=constant x T (nR/V is a constant)

Then pressure depends only on Temperature. Provided the seal is OK and the system is closed!
Not on K-seal, not on blockage, not on water pump and not on some newfangled theories.

Don't take it from me, take it from where it came, some of the brightest people that has ever walked on this earth.
And then learn from it!

[T-Cut]

It's a general philosophy, as indeed was your post that "Physics can't be wrong", not a comment specifically on a cooling system.

Oh dear Simon. The underpinning of physics, indeed all scientific development is the generation of theory from observation, hypothesis and testing - and repeating this process till we get a Law. A Law is much more than a theory. Laws are inviolate and apply everywhere. Kaiser's mathematical expressions are those of Boyle's Law and explain with simple unassailable logic why cooling suystems behave as they do. It was found true in the mid-17th century and will remain true forever.

TC

[cooper.mg190]

Thought i'd throw a quick update in here, I bleed the system this morning, let the engine run up to temp, fan kicked in at 100c, and the temp dropped and sat at 96c, for quite a while, revved the engine and the temp dipped to 89c, ? then slowly crept back up to 95c, where it sat for a while before slowly climbing back to 100c.

[cooper.mg190]

Forgot to add, I couldn't squeeze any of the rad hoses, they were like rock.

[Vanbursta]

Oh dear Simon. The underpinning of physics, indeed all scientific development is the generation of theory from observation, hypothesis and testing - and repeating this process till we get a Law. A Law is much more than a theory. Laws are inviolate and apply everywhere. Kaiser's mathematical expressions are those of Boyle's Law and explain with simple unassailable logic why cooling suystems behave as they do. It was found true in the mid-17th century and will remain true forever.

TC

Errmm until you get to the quantum level, when all rules go out the window, if you think you understand quantum physics - then you don't!! (at least at the quantum level).

[T-Cut]

Errmm until you get to the quantum level, when all rules go out the window, if you think you understand quantum physics - then you don't!! (at least at the quantum level).

We're talking about Boyle's Law and the cooling system for crying out loud!
If you want to discuss quantum theory start a new thread.

TC

[murphyv310]

Thought i'd throw a quick update in here, I bleed the system this morning, let the engine run up to temp, fan kicked in at 100c, and the temp dropped and sat at 96c, for quite a while, revved the engine and the temp dipped to 89c, ? then slowly crept back up to 95c, where it sat for a while before slowly climbing back to 100c.

That sounds like a blockage or a thermostat that doesn't open sufficiently wide enough. At tick over the flow of water round the system is always lower but enough to sufficiently cool the engine, it's producing less heat anyway. A blocked rad or a thermostat that doesn't open sufficiently wide when up to temperature will give the symptoms you have. Revving the engine speeds up the flow even with mild blockages and reduce the temperature.

[SD1too]

I bleed the system this morning, let the engine run up to temp, fan kicked in at 100c, and the temp dropped and sat at 96c, for quite a while, revved the engine and the temp dipped to 89c, ? then slowly crept back up to 95c, where it sat for a while before slowly climbing back to 100c.
That sounds very much like the effects of K-seal and/or a malfunctioning thermostat Cliff. Does the bottom radiator hose feel hot, warm or cold?

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

I'll have it back on the ramps saturday after work, I'm going to drain the system again :},
I'll check all the hose temps after I've checked the stat, I might take the heater matrix out and flush that aswel, I'll also be removing the stat and doing a boil check on it, looks like im in for a bit of fun the weekend.

[murphyv310]

I'll have it back on the ramps saturday after work, I'm going to drain the system again :},
I'll check all the hose temps after I've checked the stat, I might take the heater matrix out and flush that aswel, I'll also be removing the stat and doing a boil check on it, looks like im in for a bit of fun the weekend.

The boil test can be inconclusive if the thermostat doesn't fully open!

[cooper.mg190]

I'll see how it goes, dont want to buy another stat if i don't need to.

[SD1too]

I'm going to drain the system again :},
I'll check all the hose temps after I've checked the stat, I might take the heater matrix out and flush that aswel, I'll also be removing the stat and doing a boil check on it ...
:eek: Cliff, may I make a suggestion? If you do all that lot, all at once, you won't know where you are. It's far better to do one thing at a time so that you can see clearly whether or not it makes a difference.

Now, your recent idling temperature data is very useful. The heater matrix will have very little effect on that, so I'd urge you to leave that alone for the moment.

As far as the 'stat is concerned, I agree with Trevor. Placing it in boiling water won't tell you much since it is supposed to start opening at around 88°C, so it's far more meaningful to heat it up slowly with a thermometer in the water.

Cliff; whilst your tools are still firmly in your toolbox it would be very helpful if you wouldn't mind feeling the bottom radiator hose when the IPK diagnostics give a temperature of 90°C. It should feel hot; almost as hot as the top radiator hose in fact. If it's distinctly cooler, then you will have your diagnosis.

Finally, when you drained and refilled, did you follow the MGR procedure including raising the expansion tank?

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

Cliff; whilst your tools are still firmly in your toolbox it would be very helpful if you wouldn't mind feeling the bottom radiator hose when the IPK diagnostics give a temperature of 90°C. It should feel hot; almost as hot as the top radiator hose in fact. If it's distinctly cooler, then you will have your diagnosis.

Finally, when you drained and refilled, did you follow the MGR procedure including raising the expansion tank?

Simon

When you say "bottom hose" are you referring to the bleed hose? Stat to the bottom of the rad?
If so, then it was about the same temp as the top hose, but will definitely double check,

[SD1too]

When you say "bottom hose" are you referring to the bleed hose?
The bottom hose is large diameter and connected to the bottom of the radiator. It is the one which you should have disconnected when you drained your cooling system. It leads first to the oil cooler, then continues via the bleed screw on its way to the thermostat. The "bleed hose" is an entirely different part (top of radiator to expansion tank neck).

Cliff, I've just reviewed your thread and I see that we've been through all this diagnosis in detail from October last year and into the new year. You have continuing evidence of the K-seal interfering with the coolant flow in your engine, and the thermostat is the most likely component to be damaged. You will need to repeat the flushing operations and renew your thermostat (Trevor had to do this several times). It is not easy getting rid of K-seal. Please see the posts leading up to post 40 and good luck with it.

Simon

[kaiser]

Forgot to add, I couldn't squeeze any of the rad hoses, they were like rock.

This is the thing to investigate. At about 100 degrees, you should measure about 1 Bar. If you have more pressure than that, it comes from exhaust gas.

And just for measure, one Bar is a softish hose. 2.5 Bar is a tyre under pressure.

If you measure however, you take the guess-work out of it.

[cooper.mg190]

OK guys a bit of a productive/destructive day

Let me start by saying the original bypass didn't work for a couple of reason,

These being,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_163711_zpsrzotvlad.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_163711_zpsrzotvlad.jpg.html)

and the inside of the pipes,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_163732_zpsu0haiw2b.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_163732_zpsu0haiw2b.jpg.html)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_163739_zpswl80peta.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_163739_zpswl80peta.jpg.html)

I have fixed the u pipe, on the car,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_130303_zpsp8xckmng.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_130303_zpsp8xckmng.jpg.html)

I'm trying to find a bracket to hold it in place,

I left the car running for around an hour, while I helped my brother fix his brakes on the Octavia Vrs, :),

After which we revved the V6, at various revs, for about 2-3 mins, not higher than 5000rpm, no water loss, nothing spewing out the expansion cap,

But, I still wasn't happy with the amount of mayo build up in the rocker cover,
So we removed, the front,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_162017_zpssummm9cl.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_162017_zpssummm9cl.jpg.html)

and the gasket,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_162002_zpsdiypma5d.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_162002_zpsdiypma5d.jpg.html)

After seeing that, we took the rear off,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_161944_zpsfuoqklgj.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_161944_zpsfuoqklgj.jpg.html)

and the rear gasket

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_161926_zpsofz1o4b2.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_161926_zpsofz1o4b2.jpg.html)


The front cams,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_141545_zpsembuxuvj.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_141545_zpsembuxuvj.jpg.html)

and rear, pic isn't very good, tbh,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160215_143840_zpsxqmvhvia.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160215_143840_zpsxqmvhvia.jpg.html)

[T-Cut]

pic isn't very good, tbh,

If you scaled it down to about 800 pixels wide (or 800px high), it would be a lot easier to understand.

Your tappet cover gaskets have the typical appearance of cooked coolant residues from leakage into the sump. The solvent action of hot glycol strips off the rubbersed film and water rusts the steel shim/gasket.

TC

[cooper.mg190]

If you scaled it down to about 800 pixels wide (or 800px high), it would be a lot easier to understand.

Your tappet cover gaskets have the typical appearance of cooked coolant residues from leakage into the sump. The solvent action of hot glycol strips off the rubbersed film and water rusts the steel shim/gasket.

TC

I'll get a couple of better pics tomorrow,

So am I looking at a HGF problem, or is this just a build up of condensation?

[SD1too]

So am I looking at a HGF problem, or is this just a build up of condensation?
It's far too serious for condensation Cliff. I'm afraid that your engine is in a terrible state, but not beyond help.

My first suspicion would be the oil cooler because head gasket failure only happens on the KV6 if the engine is abused. I'm sorry to say that from the look of your photographs, someone has definitely neglected it. You will need to get the cam covers cleaned in solvent and use a flushing agent in the cooling system and flushing oil in the sump before you can get an accurate diagnosis. Since both heads are affected it's unlikely to be the gaskets I'd say.

Simon

[cooper.mg190]

I'll take a couple of pics of the area around the cams,

I'll be ordering some Liqui Moly engine flush. I used it on my V40 after I rebuilt the engine, and sounded much better, and ran quite smooth

[cooper.mg190]

Ok some cleaner images,

Rear Cams,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160216_115354_zps7s727aqr.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160216_115354_zps7s727aqr.jpg.html)

Close upish

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160216_115406_zps9uhvoqwg.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160216_115406_zps9uhvoqwg.jpg.html)


Front, pretty much the same,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160216_115430_zpsrkhqsihi.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160216_115430_zpsrkhqsihi.jpg.html)

and a general idea of the valve spring condition,

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i261/Cliff_Cooper/20160216_115446_zpsfaxkr636.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/Cliff_Cooper/media/20160216_115446_zpsfaxkr636.jpg.html)

Couldn't get my phone any closer sorry.

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I've seen far worse than that and the engine was fine.
I very much doubt that you have HGF but without a doubt coolant has mixed with the oil.
Indeed there could be leaks from the oil cooler but don't discount head porosity or another leak.
If it was me I'd change the oil doing a flush firstly, rebuild the cam covers with new gaskets and make sure everything is cleaned including the full breather system. Give the car a good run and don't rush to fit a new oil cooler or reconnect the pipes.
I really don't think we need an engine oil cooler here in the UK unless we tow with the car.