No reverse gear in automatic gearbox

[dokman01]

Hallo forum friends and gurus, I would like your expertise and suggestions regarding my automatic gearbox.
I bought my car a month ago just outside Amsterdam for 400 Euro with the knowledge that the reverse gear was not working. I had spotted the for sale ad 3 months ago and decided to join the Forum to gain knowledge regarding the known issues of the automatic gearboxes. My Rover 75 is the 2ltr v6 built in 2000 before all the face lifts happened and in very good condition except the reverse gear issue.
It drives perfectly smoothly through all of the forward gears, reacts as it should in or out of traffic and at kick downs flies as it should.
I have followed all the available threads from the atf levels to the reverse piston replacement and am absolutely convinced that the problem lies in the electronics of the beast.
I will of course follow the suggestions to check the atf level and replace this with the correct code of atf after checking the solenoids of which I also have all the details from the available threads and if necessary replace the solenoid(s) that are found faulty. Could this be all that is wrong?
Regarding the solenoid check and my car. In my car, next to the battery bay and the fender I checked and found 2 round "BMW" type connectors and not 1 with 18 pins. It looks like the number of pins as been split into 8 in the one and 10 in the other? Or am I looking in the wrong place? If I find nothing wrong with the solenoid check what would be my next plan of action within the electronics search. Could someone please help me with a systematic check list because all the maintenance garages here in the Netherlands shy away from the mention of a Rover and gearboxes and all immediately say replace the box!!! Once again I am convinced that the problem lies in the electronics and once I have eliminated all of the options will I then be convinced to do the reverse piston replacement.
Hope to hear from you all soon.

Have no problem getting my hands dirty. Any useful suggestions?

[dattrike]

This might help
The 18 pin connector you are looking for is on top of the gearbox. You will have to remove the battery and box to get access. For the solenoid lay out see

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff289/stocktake/general/gaerboxsolenoids.jpg
courtesy of stocktake

[Alan123]

This might help
The 18 pin connector you are looking for is on top of the gearbox. You will have to remove the battery and box to get access. For the solenoid lay out see

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff289/stocktake/general/gaerboxsolenoids.jpg
courtesy of stocktake

Not if its mk1. They are mounted on the inner n/s wing

[dattrike]

Not if its mk1. They are mounted on the inner n/s wing

from forum search
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D67476&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjw75mD96nJAhWMVhQKHRobBn8QFggEMAA&usg=AFQjCNHIqMY_-59Nl4CauKFx0ixi3i46lA

my mistake from reading too many threads :D

[dokman01]

Thanks for that Alan123, I take it that there are 2 connectors on the MK1 as you say that "they" are mounted on the wing

[SD1too]

I have followed all the available threads from the atf levels to the reverse piston replacement and am absolutely convinced that the problem lies in the electronics ...
Why have you ruled out a cracked reverse piston? :shrug:

Simon

[Dragrad]

Non-contributory posts removed ;)
Some pointers may be found in Tech. help :}

[zefrench]

The way to "rule out the reverse piston" is by doing a pressure check on the transmission itself. You need to remove an bolt and attach a pressure gauge to the transmission. I have specifics if you want them.

[beinet1]

Hi,

I went through a similar "story" a few years back with a happy ending: http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=122171

[dokman01]

The way to "rule out the reverse piston" is by doing a pressure check on the transmission itself. You need to remove an bolt and attach a pressure gauge to the transmission. I have specifics if you want them.

Tanks zefrench, I would appreciate the specifics if you could forward them to me

[dokman01]

Why have you ruled out a cracked reverse piston? :shrug:

Simon

I havent ruled it out and as i said i would like to do all the Obvious options first then go for the worst option last, and im sure its in the electrics cos there is no hesitation in the forward drive. Its absolutely as smooth as can be and no knocks or anything like that.

[dokman01]

Hi,

I went through a similar "story" a few years back with a happy ending: http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=122171

Thanks beinet1, yes I followed your thread and all the advice in it and will defenitely follow the advice given should it go so far. I want to rule all the Obvious out first before going the whole way of the reverse piston replacement. Oil levels and replace, ecu reset, pressure test, solenoide test etc and if it isnt one of these or which other suggestions come my way then I will bite the bullet and do the reverse piston but only after exhausting all other possibilities.

[beinet1]

Thanks beinet1, yes I followed your thread and all the advice in it and will defenitely follow the advice given should it go so far. I want to rule all the Obvious out first before going the whole way of the reverse piston replacement. Oil levels and replace, ecu reset, pressure test, solenoide test etc and if it isnt one of these or which other suggestions come my way then I will bite the bullet and do the reverse piston but only after exhausting all other possibilities.

Hi Dokman,

Get hold of the ASTG manuals for the JATCO transmission. You will find most details there regarding pressure testing of the reverse circuit. You should attach a pressure manometer to one of the ports in the end cover of the transmission, engage reverse while the engine is running and check the pressure. No or little pressure will indicate a faulty/leaking reverse piston or solenoid/valve block failure.

[dokman01]

Hi Dokman,

Get hold of the ASTG manuals for the JATCO transmission. You will find most details there regarding pressure testing of the reverse circuit. You should attach a pressure manometer to one of the ports in the end cover of the transmission, engage reverse while the engine is running and check the pressure. No or little pressure will indicate a faulty/leaking reverse piston or solenoid/valve block failure.

Thank you for the tip Beinet, I will start doing the search for it but wonder if i would find it in Holland? Maybe ebay or order from the UK?

[SD1too]

... order from the UK?
I bought mine from Sussex Auto Parts who are automatic transmission specialists.

Simon

[dokman01]

I bought mine from Sussex Auto Parts who are automatic transmission specialists.

Simon

Thanks Simon, will check what i find here in Holland first then approach Sussex Auto Parts.

[dokman01]

Thanks Simon, will check what i find here in Holland first then approach Sussex Auto Parts.

Ok so I found the manual on line as torrent and will see if this gives me what i need before buying the book version

[dokman01]

Ok so I found the manual on line as torrent and will see if this gives me what i need before buying the book version

Ok so getting back to what Alan123 passed on regarding the gearbox solenoide conector - in my case 2 of them, as I gather that my Rover is a MK1, what are the pin layouts of these 2 conectors? and what values should they read? and which solenoide to they refer to? I cant find this info anywhere.

[beinet1]

Thank you for the tip Beinet, I will start doing the search for it but wonder if i would find it in Holland? Maybe ebay or order from the UK?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20151126_16_32_46_Pro_zps5dud0mil.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20151126_16_32_46_Pro_zps5dud0mil.jpg.html)

[dokman01]

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20151126_16_32_46_Pro_zps5dud0mil.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20151126_16_32_46_Pro_zps5dud0mil.jpg.html)
Thank you Beinet, I am still stuck at trying to read out the solenoids. Because I have a 75 Mk1 I have 2 round connector plugs next to my battery instead of the 1 round 18 pin connector as is described in all the threads I can find. My round plugs have 9 pins in one and 10 pins in the other. There is no numbering in the plugs so I don't even know where to start. If there is anyone out there that can help me sort this out I would appreciate it very much. I tried to do a resistance reading but gave it up as a bad joke because I have no reference point to start from
:shrug: help please.....

[SD1too]

Because I have a 75 Mk1 I have 2 round connector plugs next to my battery instead of the 1 round 18 pin connector as is described in all the threads I can find.
No, you're looking at the wrong connectors. I think that you may have to look under the battery, but it's a long time since I found mine. The contacts are numbered, but often not all of them and the digits moulded into the plastic are very small. If you search the forum you should find the plan view of the 18 pin connector.

Simon

[RLeon]

No, you're looking at the wrong connectors. I think that you may have to look under the battery, but it's a long time since I found mine. The contacts are numbered, but often not all of them and the digits moulded into the plastic are very small. If you search the forum you should find the plan view of the 18 pin connector.

Simon

Simon is right. Here is a picture of the connector(C0243) from Rave.

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/thum_17875659a30a27d9b.jpg ('http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=21745')

[SD1too]

And Heim, here's the table (http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1298455&postcount=9) showing the various solenoid connections. Take care that you choose the correct half of the connector for your resistance checks. ;)

From RLeon's photograph, you'll need to remove the air cleaner and maybe not the battery as I thought earlier. The conical receptacle just beside C0243 is part of the air cleaner mounting.

Simon

[dokman01]

Thank you RLeon and SD1too, I am confused so to make my point clearer I am posting some photos http://members.chello.nl/f.beijne/muhlenr.htmlI hope they can be seen. If I don't need to take out the battery and the box, do I need to take out the air filter and housing to see the connector?

[SD1too]

Sadly I cannot see any photos in your last post, but no matter! :}

Air filter element + housing = air cleaner and yes, begin by removing that.

Simon

[dokman01]

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/353255659e8830f98a.jpg
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/353255659e89b024e2.jpg
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/353255659e8b41d0dc.jpg

Sorry SD1too, second try. above the photos

[SD1too]

I'd say that you need to remove the air cleaner Heim. I can see from your photographs that it's still in place. Do you need any help from the manual?

Simon

[dokman01]

I'd say that you need to remove the air cleaner Heim. I can see from your photographs that it's still in place. Do you need any help from the manual?

Simon

No thank you Simon its clear to me that the air cleaner must come out. thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Anon3]

Yes, just the air cleaner needs to come out.
The side of the plug to check is the one with the wires running to the gearbox.
I found the pin-out picture quite confusing.

[dokman01]

Firstly, thank you ALL for the help!!! I finally found the connector and measured it through. Two faults were found pin 18 - 10 shift solenoid B measured 8 ohms and pin 18 -13 2/4 timing solenoid measured 8 ohms.
The rest were all within the specs.
Now the question to you all - could this be the cause of no reverse gear? and what else? that I have not discovered yet?
Now to find the codes of these solenoids to order them here in Holland!
Also I'm not sure if I should replace them all because the car is already 15 years old? Suggestions once again always welcome

[SD1too]

Two faults were found pin 18 - 10 shift solenoid B measured 8 ohms and pin 18 -13 2/4 timing solenoid measured 8 ohms.
... could this be the cause of no reverse gear?
MG Rover says that shift solenoid B must operate in order to engage 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear. That suggests that if it was faulty, you would have no forward motion when 'D' is selected, but you don't. So on that basis I doubt that the solenoids are the problem unless I've overlooked something.
I'm not sure if I should replace them all because the car is already 15 years old?
I don't want to tempt fate but my car is even older than yours at 16 years. To date I have had no problems wth the automatic gearbox. So my answer to your question is 'no'. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is the motto.

Simon

[Anon3]

The only solenoid that I can see affects reverse is the low clutch solenoid.
Hence I agree with Simon, in that it's unlikely to be a solenoid causing your problem.

That said, if the 2-4 solenoid is duff, you usually get harsh gearshifts.
Given that it seems you have two that are iffy and I've read elsewhere that if a couple go, you can expect others to follow, it might be wise to change the lot.

I've looked into this and the cheapest I've found are here;

http://www.onestopgearboxshop.com/collections/jf506e

I've had it confirmed that this is the correct set for the 75 box.

I doubt it will cure your immediate problem, but you never know.
It's a lot of money though.

[dokman01]

Thanks for the reply Simon and Steve, first jubilation for finding the fault now a bit depressed again... Having said that I will stay on the path I am following as I'm still convinced it is not the reverse piston, however by replacing the solenoids I may be spared that repair. As I have said, the car is as smooth as silk in all the forward gears, reacts immediately and smoothly in a kick down and I cant detect any noises at all nor any hesitation. If the solenoid replacement doesn't cure the problem then I will do a pressure test as suggested by Beinet1.

By the way I omitted to mention the pressure control solenoid pin 18 - 15 only read 2 ohms so I will replace that as well.

What I also discovered when I took of the air cleaner was that the bigger rubber pipe had oil in it. I will obviously clean this out but am not sure what causes this? Any hints will be welcome.

[Anon3]

That's to do with the engine breathing and is usual.
It won't be anything to do with your problem.

[SD1too]

... the car is as smooth as silk in all the forward gears, reacts immediately and smoothly in a kick down ...
Yet you still propose to renew two solenoids? :shrug:
If the solenoid replacement doesn't cure the problem then I will do a pressure test as suggested by Beinet1.
I think that you should do the pressure test first. The evidence is stronger in favour of the reverse piston than a solenoid. You're reluctant to accept that because the solenoids are easier. :wink2:

What I also discovered when I took off the air cleaner was that the bigger rubber pipe had oil in it. I will obviously clean this out but am not sure what causes this?
It's a design fault with the crankcase breather system. Oil is drawn into the throttle body and manifold chamber.

Simon

[Anon3]

Yet you still propose to renew two solenoids? :shrug:

I agree with this too.
Even though the readings are outside the usual tolerance, if there are no relevant symptoms, I don't think I'd bother changing them.

[dokman01]

Ok I think I get the message gents, so if the solenoids are not giving the correct readings on three of them and it drives perfect in forward gears don't change anything? or change them and see if the problem is resolved. As by changing them I will also be doing an ATF refill. Or don't do anything until the pressure test has been done and do the lot should the test fail. Doomsday approach maybe, but if the pressure test is okay then replace the solenoids. Eureka pressure test it is then. Much obliged again gents.

[Anon3]

Seeing that you have no reverse and the reverse piston is usually the cause, it makes sense to do the pressure test first.
Reasonably small cost, in a gauge and some fittings and it's the easiest option in you aren't changing parts that don't need it.

It's playing the odds in your favour, I'd say, even if it proves wrong.

You may still need to change the solenoids later, but it's best to address the main problem first.

[zefrench]

Tanks zefrench, I would appreciate the specifics if you could forward them to me


I see I as too late with the info (thanks beinet1 as always ! ), but just in case you want to see it from a different perspective:


http://www.transtec.com/downloads/tech_inserts/ford/94691.pdf

Page 8

JF506E / 5F31J / 09A / JA5A-EL
FORD, MAZDA, VOLKSWAGEN, ROVER, SEAT

The diagram is pretty bland but it does give great information about testing for pressure.


I you look at this nice picture from user Hippo from landyzone, I highlighted in yellow were the line pressure tester needs to be attached.
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/attachments/jatco_jf506e_freelander-hippophoto_p9171139-jpg.56811/

550-750 kPa or 80-109 psi is what is expected.

The tap is Metric M10 fine thread

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=210597

This test can be done with transmission in car in a Freelander. I am not sure if it can be done the same in a Rover 75.

Example tester (there must be equivalent in the UK)


ATD-5550 (http://atdtools.com/5550)
Automatic Transmission and Engine Oil Pressure Tester

Checks oil pressure in automatic transmissions and gasoline engines
Tests major model domestic and foreign cars and light trucks
More accurate than dashboard oil pressure gauges
6 ft. of nitrile (oil proof) hose to make testing easier
Standard and metric fittings
2-1/2" gauge has dual scale dial with ranges from 0–300 psi and 0–21 BAR
ATD-5551 Replacement Oil Pressure Gauge for ATD-5550

US$35 in the USA, there must be something similar your way:
http://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Transmission-Engine-Pressure-Tester/dp/B0040CW2RI

[dokman01]

Thank you Martin, very helpful information to get a visual of the real thing. Making arrangements through our Automotive Institute to have the pressure test done. I will keep you all posted.

[dokman01]

Thank you Martin, very helpful information to get a visual of the real thing. Making arrangements through our Automotive Institute to have the pressure test done. I will keep you all posted.

Great, arranged for the pressure to be tested on Thursday. Will keep you all posted on the outcome. Here's hoping...

[beinet1]

Great, arranged for the pressure to be tested on Thursday. Will keep you all posted on the outcome. Here's hoping...

I would guess that the result would be no or little pressure at the reverse test port as both causes for a lost reverse would result in lost pressure (solenoid and cracked reverse piston). So basically, I think the test would not give you any clear answer. On the other hand, absolutely no pressure would indicate a faulty solenoid, while some pressure build up would indicate a cracked reverse piston as there will be some pressure loss through its crack.

[dokman01]

Hallo all, just a quick report back. I had the pressure test done and it miserably. The pressure built up to around 60psi and then bled off slowly indicating that it is a cracked piston. As I'm leaving for Ireland on the 10th I will see if I can order the required parts there. If there anyone out there that knows of a good supplier in the Dublin area I would appreciate the heads up. Also if anyone knows the parts that need to be ordered for the revers piston rebuild that would be a massive help.

To all of you that have helped me to analyze the problem and to come to the root cause - a very, very big THANK YOU !

I found this instruction on how to fix the problem with the parts required near the end of the how to. Is it correct? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2DhvngY-3XvZmY3ZGFjZTYtZDNmZC00NGJhLWEzNWMtNzQxNmI0ZWQ0YzE 1/view?hl=en&pli=1

I look forward to your advice.

[pletevl]

That looks horendously complicated !

[SD1too]

Hallo all, just a quick report back ... it is a cracked piston.
There's nothing like having a proper engineering test carried out is there Heim? :D I'm glad that you're convinced at last. :wink2:
If there anyone out there that knows of a good supplier in the Dublin area ..
I don't I'm afraid, but I can recommend JP Automatic Transmissions (http://www.jpat.co.uk/) just south of Bristol very highly indeed. There's really no need to look any further.

Simon

[beinet1]

Hallo all, just a quick report back. I had the pressure test done and it miserably. The pressure built up to around 60psi and then bled off slowly indicating that it is a cracked piston. As I'm leaving for Ireland on the 10th I will see if I can order the required parts there. If there anyone out there that knows of a good supplier in the Dublin area I would appreciate the heads up. Also if anyone knows the parts that need to be ordered for the revers piston rebuild that would be a massive help.

To all of you that have helped me to analyze the problem and to come to the root cause - a very, very big THANK YOU !

I found this instruction on how to fix the problem with the parts required near the end of the how to. Is it correct? https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2DhvngY-3XvZmY3ZGFjZTYtZDNmZC00NGJhLWEzNWMtNzQxNmI0ZWQ0YzE 1/view?hl=en&pli=1

I look forward to your advice.

Just to mention, there are some wrong points in that procedure, ref. my project thread, post 57: http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1090358&postcount=57

[beinet1]

Hi,

I ordered the parts from Automatic choice LTD when I did mine. They gave me the best prices and best shipping alternative outside the UK. https://www.automaticchoice.com/en/automatic-transmission-parts-catalogue

Its hard to tell what you need before the box is opened up, but you will at least need a new reverse piston (JF605E.PIS01), its seals (JF605E.ORK01), new circlips (JF605E.CIR01 and JF605E.CIR03) and there is a risk that you will need the friction plates (JF605E.FRP04), steel plates (JF605E.STP04) and pressure plate of the correct thickness (JF605E.PP01-04) for the reverse clutch also.
I also see that they lists a repair kit with no: JF605E.REP01, but I do not know what it contains.

Contact them for a quote, refering to the part numbers listed above, and you will get an idea which cost that are involved :)

[Anon3]

I'm glad you got a result here, dokman01.

Have some encouraging words;

Lastly, the cracked reverse piston situation is going to require replacement of the failed part with a new one. The replacement component has been strengthened at the manufacturing level in the area where it would crack. The upgraded part seems to be a permanent fix for this particular complaint. Fortunately, the price of a new and upgraded reverse piston is fairly inexpensive; especially considering it should never fail again.

http://www.autotransparts.com/jf506e_problems.php

[dokman01]

Hi all, thanks for the responce. I was finaly able to order the reverse piston parts through Sussex Motors and have just received them. Now to do the job of replacing. I will keep you all posted.

[dokman01]

GRRRRRR!!!!! gremlins about! Had the parts in my hand, step in the car to start it. It fires up for about 5 seconds and dies on me:eek: Try starting again and all I get is click click click. I think ok must be the battery because its cold and I haven't driven the car for a month and a half. I'll get my mate to jump start me. CLICK, CLICK, CLICK. Now I'm double frustrated. I cant get to fixing my gearbox and I have an extra problem to sort out.

Can anyone out there make an educated guess as to what the cause could be?:shrug:

[FrenchMike]

GRRRRRR!!!!! gremlins about! Had the parts in my hand, step in the car to start it. It fires up for about 5 seconds and dies on me:eek: Try starting again and all I get is click click click. I think ok must be the battery because its cold and I haven't driven the car for a month and a half. I'll get my mate to jump start me. CLICK, CLICK, CLICK. Now I'm double frustrated. I cant get to fixing my gearbox and I have an extra problem to sort out.

Can anyone out there make an educated guess as to what the cause could be?:shrug:

One month and a half on winter ??? charge your battery for one day at 5 Amp

Unless it's dead :shrug:

[dokman01]

Yes indeed it was the battery that is dead. I have put it on a charge. I will check in a couple of days if the trickle charge has helped.

[SD1too]

I have put it on a charge. I will check in a couple of days if the trickle charge has helped.
It needs a red blooded hairy chest charge Heim, not a trickle!

Simon

[dokman01]

An update and also seeking advice!

The battery got sorted and I did the reverse piston replacement yesterday but disappointment!!! Still no reverse and now also no forward?? I think it could be the atf oil level? The quantity that came out I replaced (which was 4 Ltr) should this be more? Its as if I don't get any pressure. I have not gotten around to checking the overflow which I will do but thought I would pose the question?

The oil that came out was clear and not pungent. And by the way the reverse piston that came out was the new type? so it appears that the previous owner had it replaced already but did not have reverse?:eek: Suggestions would be helpful.

[SD1too]

Refill your gearbox using the approved method and the level-checking plug would be my advice.

Simon

[andrewinpopayan]

Get the pressure gauges on again and see what's happening in the box.