It's alive but not well !!!!!!!

[wildie1972]

Having had a few issues since buying my first ZT 1.8 turbo I'm beggining to wonder if I've made the right decision in buying one.

Ive replaced the turbo and inlet manifold gasket, found the power that was missing by retiming the cam shafts, sorted the cold spot in the heater matrix and replaced the turbo to tee piece cooling pipe all thanks to advice on this great forum.

The car has now developed an awful noise at 2500 revs at around 25 mph, it sound like a metallic rattle either from the engine or gearbox. I can also hear it at higher speeds when I'm driving it a bit harder and ease off to change gear. When i'm stationary the revs are a little erratic fluctuating between 800 and 1000 RPM and when I park it up and turn the engine off their is a popping noise coming from the exhaust it almost sounds like water going down a plug hole. All this has developed in the last couple of weeks.

I was an Alfa Rmoeo driver for a number of years and they can be problamatic but the ZT is pushing me to the end of my tether.

[suzublu]

Get yourself over to BigRuss for a T4 session & sound advice mate:Ball: He's in Liversedge, I think? unless he's moved :icon_redface:

[wildie1972]

Forgot to mention that when I'm sat in traffic the oil light flickers as well.

[COLVERT]

It sounds as though it could be a rattle from the big ends.

You say you have low oil pressure. This could be because of the revs going up and down at idle. Or worn big ends.

If you can rev the engine with the bonnet up and listen to the engine. Where does the noise, if any, seem to come from ??

This will give you an idea as to whether it's the engine or box.

One other thing that can give this sort of noise is a loose heat shield on the exhaust system.

[wildie1972]

Thanks for the replys Ill check the heat shields as I'm under it tomorrow to fit new rubbers to the exhaust. If the big ends are going wouldn't it make the noise all the time?
I'll lift the bonnet and give it a rev in the morning if the big ends are going I'm affraid the car is too as I've never done them before and dont fancy doing them on the drive.

[wildie1972]

Well the weather is pants so wont be doing much investigating today but I have checked my oil and water levels and found mayo starting to appear on the dipstick.

Surley the head gasket cant be going the previous owner had it done at the beggining of the year

[SD1too]

Surley the head gasket cant be going the previous owner had it done at the beggining of the year
It depends whether or not it was done properly! :eek:

Perhaps you've read about checking the liner heights, checking the head surface with a straight edge and careful selection of either the elastomer or MLS gaskets.

Simon

[murphyv310]

Hi.
It begs the question as to whether the oil was changed when the gasket was replaced? Also if the liners and ladder were supported when the head was off and the crankshaft was turned could make the main bearings rotate resulting in wear and loss of oil pressure? The fact you have had to reset the valve timing makes me think the job wasn't done by a reputable mechanic.

If the oil pressure is so low at tick over (3-5psi) so it puts the light on then to me there must be considerable wear or a weak oil pump.
Big end noise is a classic sound but not many these days will be able to diagnose it correctly, it takes more than just a rev.
Big ends that are worn make less noise when cold due to the fact the oil is more viscous and can take up a little more slack in the bearings, once hot the rattle usually get louder when you lift your foot slightly off the throttle, this is due to less loading on the big ends at this point, under acceleration or load and also with your foot off the accelerator the loading is higher (Engine accelerating = load, conversely engine braking = load)
Revving the engine then backing off with give you a quick burst of a rattle as will holding the the revs in neutral.

[wildie1972]

So basically the engine may need a rebuild ? Head gasket head skimming and bottom end doing? Think it's going to be time to get rid and have the wife ferry me about.

[COLVERT]

Get yourself over to BigRuss for a T4 session & sound advice mate:Ball: He's in Liversedge, I think? unless he's moved :icon_redface:

Very sound advice.

An expert ear might find things are not as serious as you think.



Besides if your wife drives like mine then having her drive you about will be a fate worse than death.--:icon_rolleyes:

Hi.
It begs the question as to whether the oil was changed when the gasket was replaced? Also if the liners and ladder were supported when the head was off and the crankshaft was turned could make the main bearings rotate resulting in wear and loss of oil pressure? The fact you have had to reset the valve timing makes me think the job wasn't done by a reputable mechanic.

If the oil pressure is so low at tick over (3-5psi) so it puts the light on then to me there must be considerable wear or a weak oil pump.
Big end noise is a classic sound but not many these days will be able to diagnose it correctly, it takes more than just a rev.
Big ends that are worn make less noise when cold due to the fact the oil is more viscous and can take up a little more slack in the bearings, once hot the rattle usually get louder when you lift your foot slightly off the throttle, this is due to less loading on the big ends at this point, under acceleration or load and also with your foot off the accelerator the loading is higher (Engine accelerating = load, conversely engine braking = load)
Revving the engine then backing off with give you a quick burst of a rattle as will holding the the revs in neutral.

Hi Trevor.

I don't think the OP mentioned Head Gaskets.




Merry Xmas.------:smiley:

[Sheraton]

Well the weather is pants so wont be doing much investigating today but I have checked my oil and water levels and found mayo starting to appear on the dipstick.

Surley the head gasket cant be going the previous owner had it done at the beggining of the year



;)



Paul.

[SD1too]

So basically the engine may need a rebuild ?
Hang on a minute Graham! :eek: Let's not get carried away with speculation.
The car has now developed an awful noise at 2500 revs at around 25 mph, it sound like a metallic rattle ..
Such a noise, at a specific engine speed, could as Colvert has said be nothing more than a rattling heat shield.
.. I have .. found mayo starting to appear on the dipstick.
Now, this is normally an indication of head gasket failure. If so, the following might be consequences of this:
When i'm stationary the revs are a little erratic fluctuating between 800 and 1000 RPM and when I park it up and turn the engine off their is a popping noise coming from the exhaust it almost sounds like water going down a plug hole.... when I'm sat in traffic the oil light flickers as well.
Head gasket head skimming and bottom end doing?
Head gasket: probably.
Head skimming: only if necessary after measurement. Don't assume the worst; many heads do not need this.
Bottom end doing: speculation at the moment. Insufficient evidence. Head gasket failure is reasonably common on the 1.8 but big end failure is unheard of.

Simon

[marinabrian]

Bottom end doing: speculation at the moment. Insufficient evidence. Head gasket failure is reasonably common on the 1.8 but big end failure is unheard of.

Simon

Simon, I have to disagree.........I've heard of big end failure on a K-Series :snowball1:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg279/marinabrian/The%20Dreaded%20K/PICT0102.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/marinabrian/media/The%20Dreaded%20K/PICT0102.jpg.html)

A bit extreme don't you think?

Anyway if a car is run with water in the oil for long enough for a metallic sound to be heard from the bottom end, then oil pump failure must be considered along with the maladies that brings :icon_rolleyes:

Brian :D

[SD1too]

Simon, I have to disagree.........I've heard of big end failure on a K-Series :snowball1:
I suppose that I asked for that Brian! :D You are one of the 1.8 experts, after all.

Simon

[wildie1972]

Looking through the history it's had its head gasket done 3 times over the years the last one in Feb of this year. All the advise is great from this forum I'll have to get some cash together and get it over to big Russ if he can spare me some time. The popping gurgling noise on the exhaust when I turn it off - could that be a sign of HGF.

Looking at the receipt for the last work done it would appear that it had a remanufacturedream head fitted and complete timing belt kit along with a mls head gasket and new head bolts there's a note on it that 4 valves were damaged and not closing but no reference or cost as to whether or not they were replaced.

[SD1too]

... 4 valves were damaged and not closing but no reference or cost as to whether or not they were replaced.
It sounds as if the timing belt had broken doesn't it Graham. A remanufactured head is supplied with valve gear fitted in my experience.

Simon

[wildie1972]

Yes Simon I agrre looking at the detail on the last work done it would seem the timing belt went.

I'm not sure what to look at first to be honest or whether it is worth doing. The car has reams of paper and full service history but its beggining to feel like an Alfa - if you buy a good one it will be good but if you buy one with problems it will always have problems.

judging buy some of the replies as a minimum I'm looking at doing the head gasket and dropping the sump off to check the big end bearings.

[wildie1972]

Well I've done a couple of short journeys to the tip today and the nose is getting worse so I've parked the ZT up until I decide what to do. I've checked a few things and found the exhaust heat Shields are OK the oil level is fine but I still have the small amount of mayo on the bottom of the dip stick. The water level has dropped again by about half a pint.
Now I've parked it up I've dropped the covers of the timing belt to check the cam timing - this was one tooth out.

I guess the only question now is do I do the head gasket with a full kit (maybe change the oil rail to the upgraded one) and drop the sump off to inspect the bottom end.

Part of me says cut my losses and get shut but part of me says it's a future classic and deserves to be kept on the road...... Any comments?

[SD1too]

... I've dropped the covers of the timing belt to check the cam timing - this was one tooth out.
Well that's not going to help the engine run smoothly is it Graham? How did that happen? In post no. 1 you said that you'd corrected the timing. Did you make a mistake or is the tensioner faulty?
I guess the only question now is do I do the head gasket ..
Yes.
... (maybe change the oil rail to the upgraded one) ..
No. Don't allow the possibility of more faults to diagnose if this doesn't go smoothly. You have enough on your plate as it is.
.. and drop the sump off to inspect the bottom end.
Not yet. Find out why the timing is wrong and fix it. I'd say that all the symptoms you described in your first post could result from this timing error.

So, what do you think of my plan Graham? :}

Simon

[COLVERT]

You 1.8 experts.

Can water get into the sump in any other way than the head gasket ???


Inlet manifold perhaps ??

[minimutly]

Yes, cracked liner(not unheard of, especially on a turbo), leaking liner seal, again not uncommon if someone disturbed them while doing the HG.
If you decide to go ahead to repair, check liner heights and big end besrings first - if they're both OK it's safe to rebuild the engine, other wise find another and check that before fittin.

[wildie1972]

Hi Simon when I last corrected the timing it was quite a few teeth out running smoothly but no real power so I retimed it using all the original parts and got it within half a tooth - that was a couple of weeks ago and made a big difference to the power. It's now a full tooth out on the exhaust cam not sure why it appears to be tensioned up ok.

Your plan sounds like a good one Simon do the gasket and seals along with a new timing belt kit and retimed it up with new fluids and oil filter.

To answer colverts question I changed the inlet manifold seal as part of some diagnostics which turned out to be a badly worn turbo.

So I guess the next question is where to get a full head gasket kit once I've removed the head and confirmed which type of gasket to go for.

[TomRS]

As above, i wouldnt be running the engine anymore, if the oil light is flickering at idle that means your down to less than 5psi oil pressure.
Normal idle pressure when cold should be well over 3 bar 45psi, and when hot it should really be around 1.5 - 2bar 20-30psi.

my GTR runs upwards of 70psi when warm doing about 3000rpm and will sit at around 20-25psi on idle with oil temps around the 70-80degrees mark.

If you have low oil pressure and bottom end rattle i'd say its fairly terminal, it might be cheaper buying a good used engine or a breaker (that runs) and doing it that way.

More investigation needed, i'd be hooking up a pressure gauge and verifying the pressure, but i'd be careful as you'll be doing more and more damage every time you start it if the pressure is low and there's water in the oil.

[SD1too]

... if the oil light is flickering at idle ..
:confused:
I can't find any reference to a flickering oil warning lamp in the OP's reports Tom. Where did you see this?

Simon

[TomRS]

:confused:
I can't find any reference to a flickering oil warning lamp in the OP's reports Tom. Where did you see this?

Simon

Here it is simon

Forgot to mention that when I'm sat in traffic the oil light flickers as well.

[Number 6]

It is mentioned in one or two post's that there is a "Blob" of mayo on the end of the dipstick.
This could be caused by one of two things or both.

1,The engine was not flushed out enough and is the residue of the original HGF

2, If the car is used on short journeys in this weather you will get condensation in the engine which will give you a little "Blob" of mayo looking stuff on the end of the Dip stick.,he cure would be to give it a decent run up to temp.

But in this case it appears that this would not be feasible due to the possible problem with the bottom end.


But as ever I stand to be corrected

[SD1too]

Here it is simon
Thanks Tom. How did I miss that; post no. 3! :duh:

It's not a good sign is it. This car has not been looked after in its previous life. :cry:

Simon

[wildie1972]

All the replies are suggesting the bottom end has gone. It has full service history and receipts for loads of work done. Are we now saying the head gasket is OK and it's the bottom end?

[SD1too]

I don't think any of us can give you a definitive answer Graham.

On the oil light, I'm clutching at straws here but the simple things shouldn't be overlooked. Is the level correct and could Mr. Previous Owner have used a very low viscosity oil and not changed it when due? If you drain the sump you will know whether or not the mayo is a serious problem.

We could all go on guessing for ever Graham. I'm afraid you're going to have to start investigating to determine where the trouble lies. Sorry.

Simon

[TomRS]

All the replies are suggesting the bottom end has gone. It has full service history and receipts for loads of work done. Are we now saying the head gasket is OK and it's the bottom end?

Take a video of this noise, and get a mechanical oil pressure gauge hooked up to rule out any silly wiring faults.

Although im fairly sure from your description that its bottom end failure and or HG too.
To be honest it sounds like the whole engine is a mess, loss of water any mayo on the dipstick could likely be water in oil.
Then combined with the rough running, flickering oil light and knocking noise, i'd probably go with cracked liner, HGF leading to bad repairs and maybe too much sealant used, blocking the oil pump strainer causing low oil pressure leading to big end failure.

Who knows, but i'd shoot up a video and get a mech oil gauge on the go, but if it were me i'd be looking into a 2nd hand engine to replace... or buy a running breaker.
You only need the motor, turbo etc you already have :)

[wildie1972]

Thanks for the replies guys when I'm next off shift I'll drain the oil and check over the bottom end. I'll give the turbo a quick check over to make sure that's not had a rapid failure then depending on what I find drop the head off to see what's going on. Looks like I've got a few chilly days ahead of me over Christmas.

[SD1too]

That sounds like a very sensible plan Graham. A bit of dismantling and keen observation have served me well in the past. I agree that the bottom end is the best place to start.

Simon

[wildie1972]

Cross some fingers for me guys if the very worst should happen I may need pointing in the direction of an engine but hopefully not.

First quick check done - air filter and pipe to turbo removed to check the turbo which was ok but the pipe from the air box to the turbo had a small amount of gunk in it near the turbo. Next job on Thursday drain oil and sump off.

[wildie1972]

Guys been reading some threads on here and there's one talking about crank pulley slap. I've listened to the video and the noise resembles what I have could this also be a contender or is it only found on diesels ?

[marinabrian]

Guys been reading some threads on here and there's one talking about crank pulley slap. I've listened to the video and the noise resembles what I have could this also be a contender or is it only found on diesels ?

Yes it only diesel that suffer from crank pulley failure, I've never come across any failure on a K Series.

You describe the oil light flickering at low engine speed, I have the horrible suspicion that your car has been run extremely low on oil at some point in it's life either by means of turbocharger failure, or damage to the oil pump lobes caused by oil/water emulsification.

If you are experiencing clatter of that magnitude, there is something very very amiss with your engine, and it won't get any better I'm afraid :(

Brian :xmas-smiley-035:

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I totally agree with Brians two posts.
If you can get an oil pressure gauge connected in place of the oil pressure switch you would get a better idea of what is going on, running oil pressure and how much it drops with a hot engine. From what you have told us I'd imagine it would be well down.

If the head has been skimmed each time the gasket blew then it could well be below MGR height. This can offset the timing, due to cam to crank differences

[wildie1972]

Not had much chance to work on the car today just drained the oil. I did start it up to warm the oil up and on tick over although the revs were not perfectly smooth it sounded sweet as a nut until revved to 2500. While listening to it I noticed there's what looks like a non return valve in the breather from the cam case to inlet manifold. When I removed it to blow air through it to check it was OK I suspect it may have been fitted the wrong way round. Can anyone confirm if air passes though it from the cam case to the inlet manifold?

[marinabrian]

Not had much chance to work on the car today just drained the oil. I did start it up to warm the oil up and on tick over although the revs were not perfectly smooth it sounded sweet as a nut until revved to 2500. While listening to it I noticed there's what looks like a non return valve in the breather from the cam case to inlet manifold. When I removed it to blow air through it to check it was OK I suspect it may have been fitted the wrong way round. Can anyone confirm if air passes though it from the cam case to the inlet manifold?

Yes, the NRV is designed to stop positive pressure from the inlet under boost conditions pressurising the crankcase via the breather.

Brian :D

[wildie1972]

Thanks Brian so it should be fitted with the none flow side nearest the inlet manifold to allow air flow from cam case to inlet and stop air coming the other way? If that's the case mine was the wrong way around. It would appear that despite extensive history and receipts my car has lacked the deep knowledge required for attention to detail.

[minimutly]

yes is does, and that non return could be one reason why all the oil from the sump may have dissapeared at some point....

[wildie1972]

So I've managed to spend a couple of hours on the car today draining the oil first which looked in good fettle with no signs of water to my surprise. Drained the coolant which again was clean.
Then I removed the sump with no obvious signs of water ingress so I moved to the top of the engine. Off with its head!! The head came off without any fuss no signs of sealant on the head gasket and it looks like it's had a shim fitted along with a mls gasket. I couldn't see any real signs of failure of the gasket either. All the valves open and close smoothly and the machining marks are still just visible on the head face.
I've inspectedited the liners and there are no obvious signs of cracks. Liners 1 and 4 are level with the block 2 and 2 just protruding maybe a thou.
Theres oil all over the engine block where the garage who did the last HG didn't even bother cleaning it they also left 2 bolts out of the exhaust manifold I guess attention to detail is too much for some people.
So the question is do I need to worry about the liner heights or just go with an elastomer HG. I'm going to look at the big end bearings tomorrow but so far nothing other than missing bolts is jumping out other the the nrv in the breather being the wrong way round.

[SD1too]

Thanks for the encouraging report Graham.
... they also left 2 bolts out of the exhaust manifold ..
Hmmm, now I wonder why. It's worth checking that the originals didn't shear off.
So the question is do I need to worry about the liner heights ..
I have a Land Rover Technical Buleltin which says that they should be level or up to 3 thou. above the block surface. You can measure yours with an engineering rule used as a straight edge and feeler gauges.
... so far nothing other than missing bolts is jumping out other the the nrv in the breather being the wrong way round.
Wouldn't it be great if that's all it turns out to be. :o

Simon

[wildie1972]

Thanks for the encourage Simon I've looked at the exhaust manifold and it looks to have good threaded holes for the bolts I've been an engineer for over 25 years and things like missing bolts and not cleaning things really bugs me.

I've had an engineers rule across the liners and to be honest I think they're pretty much level with the block but I'll get the feelers out to make sure. I think the new type elastomer gasket should seal well as they certainly don't feel below the block. I will double check the edges to make sure they're not burnt away but on initial inspection they looked to have a good edge.
the only thing I will say is that cylinders 3 and 4 were a little oily on the top when the head was removed.
The head also has a leaking cam seal at the gearbox end so looks like I'll be changing those.

Tomorrow I'll be dropping the oil pump off and trying to see if I can see feel or hear any play in the big end bearings but not quite sure how I'm going to tackle that yet. I'll have to buy a manual at some point I suppose ��

[SD1too]

I've looked at the exhaust manifold and it looks to have good threaded holes for the bolts ..
That's a relief.
... things like missing bolts and not cleaning things really bugs me.
I couldn't agree more. That's one of the reasons why I decided to do it myself many years ago.

Tomorrow I'll be dropping the oil pump off ..
According to MGR, this involves cambelt removal.

Simon

[wildie1972]

I'm going to change the timing belt anyway as with what I have found so far I think the last one fitted at the beginning of the year was over tightened. I'm going to try to post some pics but it seems harder than stripping an engine.

[wildie1972]

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AhF6qCTQgQSWgnLMhLRiBlvbAVRG
my cylinders with head removed

[wildie1972]

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AhF6qCTQgQSWgndkLMkUxLlZ6B8T
headgasket removed

[wildie1972]

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AhF6qCTQgQSWgmbWNkRUQ6SE_kj5
video of knocking noise at idle

[Number 6]

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AhF6qCTQgQSWgmbWNkRUQ6SE_kj5
video of knocking noise at idle

Aint no pics coming up ???

[murphyv310]

[QUOTE=wildie1972;2417491

Tomorrow I'll be dropping the oil pump off and trying to see if I can see feel or hear any play in the big end bearings but not quite sure how I'm going to tackle that yet. I'll have to buy a manual at some point I suppose ��[/QUOTE]
Hi.
You will never feel the play in the big ends that way unless it is really really bad. You need to dismantle them an look at the shells for scoring and wear, the crank will also need to be checked on a micrometer for ovality and wear.
I'd also check the mains as well as it is possible the crank has been rotated with the ladder not correctly supported, this can cause the tabs to dig into the crank rendering it useless.

[wildie1972]

not sure whats going on ive copied the link from onedrive when i double klick the icon it takes me there. I thought they would appear in the thread.

[wildie1972]

Thanks for the reply Trevor I may have to try and drop a shell out to have a look at it. I've read not to move th crank with the head off as it can move the liners?

[murphyv310]

Thanks for the reply Trevor I may have to try and drop a shell out to have a look at it. I've read not to move th crank with the head off as it can move the liners?
Correct but the mains can rotate too as they have slop in the ladder assembly with the head bolts out. My lad did this on a 214 and landed up with a duff crank.

[wildie1972]

This morning I've been back and rechecked the liner heights they are all 1 thou above the block face with the exception of one corner on cylinder 3 which is level so I'm reasonably certain the new style elastomer type HG will give a good seal.

I've cleaned out the sump and oil rail and there was no signs of water or shiny metal fragments. I'm thinking the garage who fit the last gasket should not have fit a MLS type given the liner heights.

I've looked at the big ends but not dropped any shells out to be honest I'm reluctant to drop one out as I don't fancy having to drop the crank if I find anything nasty. To be honest so far other than poor attention to detail by previous mechanic maybe the wrong HG fitted and the NRV fitted the wrong way round in the breather I've not found anything. I'm trying to tell myself that it's not the crank but.....

[SD1too]

The liners and sump inspection is good news isn't it.

So now you have to decide whether the noise results from bottom end wear. I have no experience of this sort of thing but it would appear to be a major job not undertaken lightly. Then there's this evidence:
... it sounded sweet as a nut until revved to 2500.
Why from 2,500 rpm? Wouldn't we expect noise below that speed as well if we had major bearing wear?
You could remove the oil pump for inspection in view of the apparent low pressure at idle.
What do you think Graham?

Simon

By the way, the Land Rover TB gives cylinder head minimum height as 118.75 mm and flat to a tolerance of 0.05 mm (2 thou.).

[wildie1972]

Good shout Simon the oil pump is the last easy thing to inspect so I agree it should come off so will be tomorrow's job (on the santa train tonight:) )

I'll borrow some verniers from work on Monday to measure the head depth although it was a recon fitted in February so hope it's in tolerance with the shim which it appears to have with the HG

[COLVERT]

The liners and sump inspection is good news isn't it.

So now you have to decide whether the noise results from bottom end wear. I have no experience of this sort of thing but it would appear to be a major job not undertaken lightly. Then there's this evidence:

Why from 2,500 rpm? Wouldn't we expect noise below that speed as well if we had major bearing wear?
You could remove the oil pump for inspection in view of the apparent low pressure at idle.
What do you think Graham?

Simon

By the way, the Land Rover TB gives cylinder head minimum height as 118.75 mm and flat to a tolerance of 0.05 mm (2 thou.).

Simon.

If there was some wear on the big ends it would be the soft metal on the shell that would go first.

Just changing the shells to new ones of the same size might be enough get the engine running ok again.

Bit of fiddly job but could be done with care.

Would need ring compressors to drop the pistons back in.

I have a really simple set of compressors. Takes less than two seconds to drop a piston in using them.--------------------:xmas-smiley-032:

[wildie1972]

Just been and had a quick measure of the head depth and mine is 118.72mm that's measured as accurately as possible without a surface plate with my trusty manual verniers and a straight edge.

[wildie1972]

I'm nervous about moving the crank just in case the liners move.

[SD1too]

I'm nervous about moving the crank just in case the liners move.
DON'T! :eek:

Your head height appears to be below the specified minimum. :o

John, thanks for your reply. Are you saying that the big end job isn't as major as I assumed?

Simon

[wildie1972]

Sorry Simon my head height is 118.75 bang on the minimum

[COLVERT]

DON'T! :eek:

Your head height appears to be below the specified minimum. :o

John, thanks for your reply. Are you saying that the big end job isn't as major as I assumed?

Simon

LOL. Being as old as I am I've done lots of re-boring. big ends, main bearing etc.
Never been too difficult. Replacing big end shells in situ is not bad if you have the head and sump off.

No need to move the crankshaft either. Especially with the 1.8 engine as this WILL cause problems.

I'll see if I can find my piston ring clamp and post a pic on here.

As I said--it is very simple BUT very quick to use.


:xmas-smiley-032:

[wildie1972]

I can't get to all the big end bolts without moving the crank though

[marinabrian]

I can't get to all the big end bolts without moving the crank though

Is the right answer ;)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg279/marinabrian/AYA%20ENGINE/PICT0092.jpg

Or MGJohn's GhettoTech/Frabtel method ;)

http://i59.tinypic.com/2mcdl4y.jpg

John's method will suffice in the absence of the proper liner clamps :)

Brian :D

[wildie1972]

Ah now that makes sense I'm feeling a little more comfortable with having a go now Brian thanks.

[murphyv310]

I'm nervous about moving the crank just in case the liners move.
You can hold the liners in place with suitably thick wood or anything else that will have the height to keep them in place with the bolts in position. Make sure there is sufficient clamping on the middle two head bolts to keep the ladder tight at least. Mind it is not just the liners that can move with crank rotation, so many here forget the mains can move too.
I honestly think you should have had an accurate check on oil pressure prior to dismantling the engine.

[COLVERT]

I can't get to all the big end bolts without moving the crank though

Will somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the crankshaft is uniform.

ie. If you have two pistons at TDC and the others BDC then the big ends are in a straight line viewed from below. That is all the big end bolts are central and in a straight line so can easily be undone.

[marinabrian]

Will somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the crankshaft is uniform.

ie. If you have two pistons at TDC and the others BDC then the big ends are in a straight line viewed from below. That is all the big end bolts are central and in a straight line so can easily be undone.

This is of course true John, however the "safe" position where the timing marks are in alignment is roughly 90 degrees BTDC, and this is the position the engine is placed when the head is normally removed.

It's not a problem though, the clamping method allows for realignment of the crankshaft :)

Brian :D

[wildie1972]

Well guys I've spent a few hours making some clamps to clamp across all the cylinder liners affectivley 4 points on each cylinder then marked the liners up against the block to look out for any rotation.

I've managed to drop all 4 sets of big end shells out with no problems and inspected them. None of them are worn through the white metal a couple have some scoring but not enough to cause any knocking. The cylinders pushed up and down the liners under minimal pressure and felt smooth.

So the question is do I fit a new set of big end shells now I've got them out or fit the originals backs which are already bedded to the crank.

[COLVERT]

Well guys I've spent a few hours making some clamps to clamp across all the cylinder liners affectivley 4 points on each cylinder then marked the liners up against the block to look out for any rotation.

I've managed to drop all 4 sets of big end shells out with no problems and inspected them. None of them are worn through the white metal a couple have some scoring but not enough to cause any knocking. The cylinders pushed up and down the liners under minimal pressure and felt smooth.

So the question is do I fit a new set of big end shells now I've got them out or fit the originals backs which are already bedded to the crank.

The thing is, the amount of work you have gone through to get where you are is considerable. For the price of a set of shells I personally would get new ones.

I really hope you have good luck after all the effort you have put into this.---:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:

[wildie1972]

Me too fella me too :) I'm trying to identify what shells they are at the moment as I'm on shift for next 3 days so won't really be able to get under the car. I've not dropped the oil pump or water pump off yet so they may as well come off to double check then it's into rebuild when I've cleaned the block of all the oil from previous failure while I can get at it.

[SD1too]

None of them are worn through the white metal a couple have some scoring but not enough to cause any knocking.
So the question is do I fit a new set of big end shells now I've got them out or fit the originals backs which are already bedded to the crank.
If you're telling me that the scoring is typical of any engine on the road, with no apparent problems, then you could refit them. One advantage of doing this is that you will find out the real cause of the noise (having corrected the one way valve problem).
... the amount of work you have gone through to get where you are considerable. For the price of a set of shells I personally would get new ones.
A good point from John provided, of course, that the price is reasonable, the quality high and the delivery time short. ;) The big disadvantage is that you will never know whether bottom end wear was the cause or not.

It's your call Graham. :D

Simon

[wildie1972]

Rimmer have OEM shells in Simon at a cost of around £50 for a set. I think I need to give the crank a good looking at to make sure there's no scoring on it and check out the oil pump. I understand your comment about putting the shells back but in an engineering sense I wouldn't strip a machine down this far and not replace a bearing knowing what's involved to get to this point.

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I wouldn't refit the old ones, really not worth relying on the old ones. If you can get a micrometer on the crank webs check the ovality, it's a good indicator on general wear.
Good luck with the rebuild.

[SD1too]

I understand your comment about putting the shells back but in an engineering sense I wouldn't strip a machine down this far and not replace a bearing knowing what's involved to get to this point.
Yes, I absolutely take your point Graham. I would most likely do the same. If you do choose to do this however, I hope that an 'open verdict' will be recorded on the forum with regard to your mystery noise. ;)

Simon

[wildie1972]

I'm hoping that I find something with the oil pump to be honest. I'm going to see if I can lash something up to check for play in the crank bearings too and get a DTI on the bearing surfaces for the big ends on the crank to check concentricity. With Christmas at the inlaws coming up time on the car is going to be limited over Christmas.

[minimutly]

I would pull the pistons to check for scuff - any engine thats run on emulsion instead of oil will show signs of this, sometimes completely wiping out one side of the piston. If this is the case it will slap its head off. No cost, just some extra work...

[wildie1972]

Thanks for the replies guys the piston liner bores are all nicely polished with no scoring, would piston slap sound like knocking? Listening to piston slap on the net it sounded to more of a ring than an out and out knock.

The bearing faces on the crank are all concentric and in good polished shape other than no.3 which has a slight scoring down the middle of the bearing face for the full circumference which tallies up with the marks on no.3 shell bearings.

So I've found myself asking the question again do i fit the original shells back to match this scoring or go with new I've found myself questioning my own decision as so far I haven't found any real damage anywhere that I could confidently say would cause knocking. I dont fancy dropping the crank out as this would mean removing the engine block from the car and if I go that far I am looking at totally reconditioning the engine.

To be honest I'm not pushed for time because we have another car but obviously money will come into it. The head is in good shape and needs no work water pump was new this year, turbo core was new 5 weeks ago Mmmmm decisions decisions.

[COLVERT]

Piston slap would be more obvious with a cold engine before the pistons expand to a better fit in the bores as they heat up.


Crank bearings are more likely to sound like a rumble rather than a knock and the sound is usually deeper.

Also crank End Float seems to tap in time with the revs. A fast low tapping noise.

[minimutly]

You haven't got a bent conrod tatting the bottom of a liner have you? Its not uncommon due to water getting into the inlet manifold, seen two myself...

[wildie1972]

It's something I haven't checked but I certainly will do

[marinabrian]

You haven't got a bent conrod tatting the bottom of a liner have you? Its not uncommon due to water getting into the inlet manifold, seen two myself...

That would be evident if you measure the distance from the piston skirt to the top of the liner, also there would be witness marks on the conrod and the liner if that were the case..........easy enough to check when the pistons are not connected to the crank :)

Brian :D

[wildie1972]

Well I've managed to put my back out so work stops for a little while

[wildie1972]

Back now repaired ! not sure for how long but ordered all the parts I need to start rebuilding my engine which I started today while there was a lull in the weather.

So today Ive polished the big end journals very lightly, cleaned them, lubed them up and fitted a full set of big end bearings from Rimmers which I fully matched with the code on the crank and shells to make sure I fitted the correct ones. All seems to have gone smoothly and the crank rotates fine with everything torqued up.
Ive rest the crank to the timng mark, removed the cylinder sleeve locking bolts and refit the oil pick up rail and filter and cleaned the top of the pistons.

Tomorrows job will be to replace the rear cam shaft oil seals as they are leaking.

[wildie1972]

Rear cam seals replaced now and head cleaned up ready for fitting. The 2 missing studs for the exhaust manifold have been replaced with new nuts fitted.

Ive cleaned up the sump ready for refitting and replaced the sealing washer on the sump plug. (New gasket arrived ready to be fit)

I'm just waiting for the head gasket, rocker gasket and head bolts to arrive from DMGRS then I can rebuild the engine along with new gaskets for the turbo.

Once the engine is back together and theres no more worries of any of the crank bearings moving while its apart I'll drop the crank pulley off to get to the oil pump to check that over. Once all thats been put back together it will be time for the big start up :)

[COLVERT]

I'm sure you won't forget but------------------Turn the darn thing over Gently by hand before you ever get to switching on the starter motor.---:D



Bent valves----------Ugh !!!--------:eek:

[wildie1972]

I certainly will do I turned it by hand 3 revolutions while I had the cylinder liner clamps in place and it was very smooth. Obviously now I've removed the clamps I can't move the crank until Ive got the cylinder head fastened down :) I'm hoping the gaskets and bolts come so I can get it done while the weather forecast is reasonable!

[wildie1972]

It's getting closer!!! Fit head with new gasket along with rocker cover and and gasket. Also refit turbo and exhaust plus the sump all with new gaskets. Inlet manifold refit and all pipework and wiring.
Just got the timing belt to refit and fluids to put in then fingers crossed

[wildie1972]

Well as some of you will be aware from my previous thread ( ZT love affair could be coming to an end ) I have had some issues with the engine on my ZT 160 and replaced a number of things including the big end bearings, cylinder head gasket and several other gaskets. I also checked and measured a number of things along the way using the excellent advice and support from the guys on this forum.

Well today was the day I put in the oil and water to fire it up and I'm more than happy to say that it started first turn of the key with no issues, warmed up fine and on the test drive all seems good with the world :)

I have developed a rattle on the exhaust but managed to fit a new support rubber and that seems to be ok now - I might even treat it to a new back box in the coming months.

The support I have recieved has been great I would have seriously scrapped the car if it wasn't for the support.

THANKS ALL

[planenut]

Well today was the day I put in the oil and water to fire it up and I'm more than happy to say that it started first turn of the key with no issues, warmed up fine and on the test drive all seems good with the world

The support I have recieved has been great I would have seriously scrapped the car if it wasn't for the support.

THANKS ALL

That's fabulous news, well done.

[FLYING BANANA]

Well as some of you will be aware from my previous thread ( ZT love affair could be coming to an end ) I have had some issues with the engine on my ZT 160 and replaced a number of things including the big end bearings, cylinder head gasket and several other gaskets. I also checked and measured a number of things along the way using the excellent advice and support from the guys on this forum.

Well today was the day I put in the oil and water to fire it up and I'm more than happy to say that it started first turn of the key with no issues, warmed up fine and on the test drive all seems good with the world :)

I have developed a rattle on the exhaust but managed to fit a new support rubber and that seems to be ok now - I might even treat it to a new back box in the coming months.

The support I have recieved has been great I would have seriously scrapped the car if it wasn't for the support.

THANKS ALL

Great news, that's another one saved.

[grout20]

(Extremely) well done that man!

��

John

[mikmoz]

thats great news well done:bowdown::D,the info and support on here is amazing

[marinabrian]

Well as some of you will be aware from my previous thread ( ZT love affair could be coming to an end ) I have had some issues with the engine on my ZT 160 and replaced a number of things including the big end bearings, cylinder head gasket and several other gaskets. I also checked and measured a number of things along the way using the excellent advice and support from the guys on this forum.

Well today was the day I put in the oil and water to fire it up and I'm more than happy to say that it started first turn of the key with no issues, warmed up fine and on the test drive all seems good with the world :)

I have developed a rattle on the exhaust but managed to fit a new support rubber and that seems to be ok now - I might even treat it to a new back box in the coming months.

The support I have recieved has been great I would have seriously scrapped the car if it wasn't for the support.

THANKS ALL

Fantastic stuff !!, they're not bad once you get into them eh?

Brian :D

[Dragrad]

Threads merged as they are related.;) Well done! :D

[wildie1972]

No not too bad Brian it does look better on the drive now it's not on axle stands :) they are a good looking car.

[SD1too]

... I would have seriously scrapped the car if it wasn't for the support.
All credit to you Graham for listening to the support and remaining optimistic whilst putting in a lot of hard work. You can now be extremely proud of your achievement. I hope that you'll continue to be an active member of the forum and encourage others. Well done. :hurray:

Simon

[wildie1972]

Cheers Simon I can honestly say I enjoyed doing it

[boater]

Hi Wildie

You are a credit to yourself and the club. To carry on when things looked bad is an example to us all and I wish you many happy years with the car from now on!

[COLVERT]

Cheers Simon I can honestly say I enjoyed doing it

OH oh. Now we've done it----------------


-------------------we've turned you into a Masochist.--------:eek::eek::eek:

[wildie1972]

So this masochist (thanks Colvert) :) has another question for you all, I gave it a good run last night and when I pulled up and turned off the engine the exhaust sounded like it was gurgling for about 20 seconds - any thoughts?

[wildie1972]

Arghhhhhh the metalic tapping/ knocking is back again once the car is fully warmed up and done 5 or 6 miles and again only between 2500 and 3000 RPM when I'm maintaining throttle particulary when in 2nd gear. :duh: This problem aside the car pulls like a train, handles well and does everything it should.

As an aside the exhaust still sounds like its gurgling when I pull up after I turn the engine off.:shrug:

[zony]

Graham

Did you ever measure the oil pressure with a proper gauge?

[wildie1972]

:mad:No because the noise sounds very mechanical. Incidentally since I've completed all the work the oil light has not come on whilst stood in traffic like it did before. I'm pulling my hair out now