Chinese Timing Tools

[dai1983]

Evening,

My 2.5 v6 needs a timing belt as is never had it done at nearly 80k! Anyone have experience of these cheaper tool kits?

https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Engine-Timing-Tool-Kit-Land-Rover-Freelander-V6-Rover-KV6-Engine-Tools/182630377814?hash=item2a859e6956:g:iiwAAOSw0j9ZSjc 6

I do all my own work and have done a couple of floating pulley Fords and Renaults.

[kaiser]

You do not need any tools for setting the cam timing.
If you note the timing marks on the rear pulleys in "safe" position, that is where the factory set it, that is where it must be with the new belts fitted.
Simple. And if you have never changed belts before it will be the factory setting!

The front pulley is just a driving pulley the cam timing setting is determined by the two sets of rear pulleys. Take a pick of the marks before you start the work and let us see.

There is no need to disturb the front pulley at all.

[dai1983]

Cheers for the reply,

Is the crank pulley keyed then?

[Mike Noc]

That is Kaiser's opinion on the timing tools, and he is more than welcome to give it.

The alternative view is that the only way to ensure the timing is correct is to use the timing tools - you should be in the ball park if mark everything up though.

The discussion on whether to use the tools or not has been done to death on here and elsewhere, so we might as well agree to disagree. :}

It isn't just a Rover thing - did a cambelt on a Citroen DW8 last night, and both the cam and fuel pump sprockets float so you pin the flywheel, cam and pump sprockets, tension the new belt and then lock up the sprockets.

The good thing about the DW8 timing pins is that you can knock them up yourself. :D

[SD1too]

My 2.5 v6 needs a timing belt as is never had it done at nearly 80k! Anyone have experience of these cheaper tool kits?

Hello David. I don't have any experience of the kit to which you've linked but I see that it's unbranded with no warranty, made in China and retails at £55. Deduct the seller's profit and what tool quality do you think you'll be left with? ;)

Simon

PS Time to update your profile I think.

[philm]

It may be cheap but probably good enough for a once in a blue moon job but certainly doubtful for pro use.it may be unbranded but does not mean it's not been made by a decent company.

[MSS]

........

The alternative view is that the only way to ensure the timing is correct is to use the timing tools - you should be in the ball park if mark everything up though.

..........

A view to which I subscribe - that the only way to do it properly is to use timing tools. I will be doing the belts on our Ecotec 1.8VVT soon and despite being a much simpler set-up compared with the KV6, I will be using timing tool set.

[SCP440]

It may be cheap but probably good enough for a once in a blue moon job but certainly doubtful for pro use.it may be unbranded but does not mean it's not been made by a decent company.

Agreed 100%, a lot of stuff comes in from China and once here is branded up with some of the brands from the cheaper end of the market anyway.

I have a tool for replacing the rear bushes on Ford Focus rear suspension, cost me less than £60 but I have seen exactly the same tool badged up as a Laser 4437 for over £200.

What ever you do the best advice I can give you is once you have done the job rotate the engine by hand a couple of times with the plugs out to check nothing touches. If you do this at least there will be no damage if something is wrong.

Last year I did the belt on an Astra, one owner from new and it was the first time it had been done, timed it up and some of the marks did not line up, I checked several times and decided to remove the belt and line it all up before I put the new belt on. New belt on and did my checks so all seemed fine so I started it, no problems so I put it all back together and when the owner got home he rung me to say I had transformed the way the car drove :eek:. More powerful and a lot smoother. The engine had done over 40k like that, makes you wonder how many others are out there like that?

[dai1983]

Hello David. I don't have any experience of the kit to which you've linked but I see that it's unbranded with no warranty, made in China and retails at £55. Deduct the seller's profit and what tool quality do you think you'll be left with? ;)

Simon

PS Time to update your profile I think.

I’ve had good experience with all the unbranded Ford/Renault/vw tools Ive bought TBH but there’s also times when even branded but not OEM tools are widely known to be NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- such as the Lazer Renault “horseshoe” tool.

I was just wondering if anyone on here had experience of these Chinese ones. I’ll update my profile now

[beinet1]

Last year I did the belt on an Astra, one owner from new and it was the first time it had been done, timed it up and some of the marks did not line up, I checked several times and decided to remove the belt and line it all up before I put the new belt on. New belt on and did my checks so all seemed fine so I started it, no problems so I put it all back together and when the owner got home he rung me to say I had transformed the way the car drove :eek:. More powerful and a lot smoother. The engine had done over 40k like that, makes you wonder how many others are out there like that?

I had a similar experience when I replaced the timing chain and guides on a -08 Pug 308 Petrol.

[kaiser]

The timing system on the V6 is like on any twin cam car. There are just two sets of cams, and they are driven from the front. If your car has never had the belts changed, it will have the factory setting.
Just watch the marks on the rear sprockets, and make sure you have the same setting after the change, and you will be fine.

That is the short and the long of it.:D

[kaiser]

Cheers for the reply,

Is the crank pulley keyed then?

The two rear pulleys each bank are keyed and marked, and so is the crank pulley.

[Mike Noc]

The two rear pulleys each bank are keyed and marked, and so is the crank pulley.

Yes they are all keyed, but the front two cam sprockets float.

[kaiser]

Yes they are all keyed, but the front two cam sprockets float.
So what?
1.They don't if you leave them!
2.The timing marks are on the rear! That is where the timing takes place.
3. If the fronts have never been moved, the timing is factory set and there can be no doubt about the setting! It must just be reproduced after belt change. Like on any normal car!

Is this really so difficult to understand?:o

[andy willi]

the best way to get it right is TIPEX mark it up and you cant go wrong i mark up the sprockets and the belt then transfer my markings from the old belt to the new belt and fit it (this is for the front belt ) the rear belts are so easy you cant get them wrong TIPEX again to make sure,

andy

[dai1983]

So what?
1.They don't if you leave them!
2.The timing marks are on the rear! That is where the timing takes place.
3. If the fronts have never been moved, the timing is factory set and there can be no doubt about the setting! It must just be reproduced after belt change. Like on any normal car!

Is this really so difficult to understand?:o

Cheers for that and makes perfect sense. I’d thought that they were mostly all floating hence the need for so many tools!

[SD1too]

PM sent to dai1983.

Simon

[Mike Noc]

So what?
1.They don't if you leave them!
2.The timing marks are on the rear! That is where the timing takes place.
3. If the fronts have never been moved, the timing is factory set and there can be no doubt about the setting! It must just be reproduced after belt change. Like on any normal car!

Is this really so difficult to understand?:o

Ha ha - I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. :}


As to your specific points:

1. Why on earth did Rover go to the expense of floating cams and setting tools if they weren't to be used when changing belts?

If it was just a question of finding the initial setting at the factory they would have done that, set it as a standard for production engines, not used floating cams and saved money.

2. According to the chap who was involved with the design, the factory timing marks on the rear cams aren't accurate marks for the engine due to the fact that they were still fine tuning the valve timing for the optimum setting after the production tooling had been manufactured.

If you know where to look, this is mentioned in RAVE.

3. The factory set the floating cams to suit the front belt they fitted when the engine was built up. If you change the belt you should then set the engine up to the new belt just as they did in the factory to ensure any variations in belt tolerances don't affect the engine timing.

Whether anyone uses the tools or not is down to them. If you think near enough is good enough then fine, and in reality it will be, but my view is that the best way to ensure the timing is spot on is to use the tools as recommended by the factory.

[marinabrian]

I always use the tools for this job, and it's not uncommon to see incorrectly timed engines that have been got at by the "Tippex Brigade"

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72091&stc=1&d=1516539792

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=72092&stc=1&d=1516539805

I would say that a set of cheap tools is fine for once in a blue moon use, but use Gates Powergrip belts, not Dayco as supplied by this customer :getmecoat:

Brian :D

[dai1983]

I would say that a set of cheap tools is fine for once in a blue moon use, but use Gates Powergrip belts, not Dayco as supplied by this customer :getmecoat:

Brian :D

Why are the Gates ones so much better? I’ve used both in numerous cars but every day is a school day.

[SCP440]

Personally I have never seen a Gates timing belt snap and only a couple of fan belts but I have seen numerous Dayco belts give up.

I was given a Dayco timing belt to fit buy a customer to a Ford and I refused, they don't seem to look as good quality even when new. Yes they might be a few £'s cheaper but this is one item it is not worth trying to save on in my view.

[kaiser]

Ha ha - I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it. :}


As to your specific points:

1. Why on earth did Rover go to the expense of floating cams and setting tools if they weren't to be used when changing belts?


If it was just a question of finding the initial setting at the factory they would have done that, set it as a standard for production engines, not used floating cams and saved money.

2. According to the chap who was involved with the design, the factory timing marks on the rear cams aren't accurate marks for the engine due to the fact that they were still fine tuning the valve timing for the optimum setting after the production tooling had been manufactured.

If you know where to look, this is mentioned in RAVE.

3. The factory set the floating cams to suit the front belt they fitted when the engine was built up. If you change the belt you should then set the engine up to the new belt just as they did in the factory to ensure any variations in belt tolerances don't affect the engine timing.

Whether anyone uses the tools or not is down to them. If you think near enough is good enough then fine, and in reality it will be, but my view is that the best way to ensure the timing spot on is to use the tools as recommended by the factory.
Why on earth did Rover do all the stupid things they did with the 75? Plastic thermostat houses, instruments that fail after a few years, petrol filters that unscrew themselves, springs that, -well- don't spring, the list goes on.
I have had a public discussion with Diesel 1956 (if that was his name) and he did not strike me as the person who had designed the system, in spite of his claims. He was evasive and did not bring any sound argument to bear in the discussion, he actually claimed he could not remember!. So I don't give much for his arguments.
The fact is simple. If you know the setting of the two sprockets on the rear on each side of the engine, then it is EXACTLY the same as timing a 1.8 engine, but in plural!:D. Safe mode, two opposing marks, and they must be maintained. Each side.
Not many in their right mind will claim that that method on the 1.8 is not accurate! Or??
The variations between belts is of no consequence, because they are so small as to be of no significance at all. I looked up the accuracy of these belts in my original discussion, and the variations is a fraction of a millimeter. Nobody with any sanity will claim that the 1.8 has to be set up for each new belt fitted! Why on earth would you suddenly expect that here??

Variation of the cam timing has an effect on power and torque, and there is not one "best" setting. The setting that Rover came up with for the 75 is the setting they felt best satisfied their requirements for that car. If you have a factory set engine, there is nothing that will throw that timing out, unless your belt jumps teeth. Nothing! The variation that can be achieved, should you decide to play around with the floating sprockets in front, could perhaps be useful as they planned to use the engine in all from 4x4 to sports cars.

Brian, I too have seen engines not timed correctly, that is not because the timing method is inaccurate, but because a lot of people are not very god at what they do. Such mistiming is not a fraction of a millimeter, but one or more teeth. That is caused by incompetence, bad luck or lack of care.



The OP has an engine set by the factory. If he maintains the setting with new belts, the setting will be exactly what they did at the factory. That is simple logic.
We have here a chance to see what the factory settings are, as the OP can take a picture of the marks of the four sprockets with the engine in safe mode.

;)

[Mike Noc]

If you know the setting of the two sprockets on the rear on each side of the engine, then it is EXACTLY the same as timing a 1.8 engine, but in plural!:D. Safe mode, two opposing marks, and they must be maintained. Each side.
Not many in their right mind will claim that that method on the 1.8 is not accurate! Or??


Yes of course the theory of timing is exactly the same, but the KV6 front belt is far longer, and variations can have a cumulative effect, so what is an acceptable factory tolerance for the 1.8 belt may not be within the acceptable factory tolerance for the KV6.

[beinet1]

As we know, all pulleys are keyed except for the front camshaft pulleys. They float and shall be fixed in the correct position with the tools after the front belt is mounted. Is there any ways to check for correct timing without the tools?? Some kind of precision marks or lines on the rear camshaft sprockets would easily tell this when the crankshaft is locked in the "safe" position with the locking pin. Is there any??

Does anyone know if the engineering drawings for the tool is available somewhere?

I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=204919 ), but it would be nice to have the timing checked just to be sure. I feel that my KV6 should perform better than it does and I know the spanner monkeys have been in there before. Old tipex marks was found and I have documentation for TB replacement earlier in the cars life...
It seems that I have to get into there again as it seems the WP has given in, but it might be the thermostat also... will inspect closer....

[mh007]

That is Kaiser's opinion on the timing tools, and he is more than welcome to give it.

Have to agree with this.
I've done several & always use the tools & use new sprocket bolts too.

[beinet1]

As we know, all pulleys are keyed except for the front camshaft pulleys. They float and shall be fixed in the correct position with the tools after the front belt is mounted. Is there any ways to check for correct timing without the tools?? Some kind of precision marks or lines on the rear camshaft sprockets would easily tell this when the crankshaft is locked in the "safe" position with the locking pin. Is there any??

Does anyone know if the engineering drawings for the tool is available somewhere?

I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=204919 ), but it would be nice to have the timing checked just to be sure. I feel that my KV6 should perform better than it does and I know the spanner monkeys have been in there before. Old tipex marks was found and I have documentation for TB replacement earlier in the cars life...
It seems that I have to get into there again as it seems the WP has given in, but it might be the thermostat also... will inspect closer....

Hi all,

I just have had a quick look at some old pictures and others found on the net. Both sprockets on the rear have notches which go in line with the key. The inlet sprocket also have a line through its center. I assume that when engine is put in "safe position", these notches shall line up through the center between the sprockets. Putting a steel ruler on the lines on the inlet sprocket and check if it mates up with the center of the exhaust sprocket can then give you an indication that the floating sprocket on the front are properly lined up or not. Does this make sense???
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN2218_zpsd187a5f3.jpg~original (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN2218_zpsd187a5f3.jpg.html)

[kaiser]

Hi all,

I just have had a quick look at some old pictures and others found on the net. Both sprockets on the rear have notches which go in line with the key. The inlet sprocket also have a line through its center. I assume that when engine is put in "safe position", these notches shall line up through the center between the sprockets. Putting a steel ruler on the lines on the inlet sprocket and check if it mates up with the center of the exhaust sprocket can then give you an indication that the floating sprocket on the front are properly lined up or not. Does this make sense???
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/beinet1/DSCN2218_zpsd187a5f3.jpg~original (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/beinet1/media/DSCN2218_zpsd187a5f3.jpg.html)

Do the marks on the 1.8 sprockets make sense?
Of course they do!

Do these on the V6 make sense?.
Of course they don't!! They are just there to give you a false sense of security and to give people like me something to argue about!:getmecoat:
Since they are locked unto the camshafts and can only go one way, they are not to be taken seriously, at all!! Rather go and get some tools, of which we have many variants to confuse the enemy!! Then take out the oil seals, break the lock on the floating front sprockets and force everything to align with whatever tool you set your fancy on. Throw away the bolts, buy new ones. Insert new oil seals and tighten the living daylight out of the bolts.
After suffering massive oil loss from loose camshaft seals and lumpy running, pat self on back and congratulate on a job done by the book.!

Back to the original posters case. He has a car that has the belts set from the factory. If his marks don't align, when he takes the covers off with the engine in safe mode, he can just make the exact same marks as seen here (but DON't use Tipex for Pete's sake!!:shrug::getmecoat:), and by keeping those marks in line , after the new belt is fitted, he will be back to the exact timing given to the engine by the factory, provided there is not a mechanical problem, with a stripped belt, broken sprocket or jumped teeth.(all of which should be obvious!)

If you (anyone and no-one in particular) cannot see that, I would suggest you sit down and take you thinking hat on, because in that case you have not understood what is going on here.

I am still waiting for the penny to drop for at least some-one reading this!:D

Life can be so frustrating at times:cool:

[beinet1]

Kaiser, I will be waiting with you :D :D

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4627/38936180555_f93ab6fc29_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22jE6XR)

[chris75]

I have done this job 3 times now , once without the tools and twice with them . Both ways work :eek:
I simply like using the tools , perhaps because I like toys :} I do appreciate the floating sprockets when I tension the front belt ; no movement of the shafts . I also like using the tool in the front of the exhaust sprocket to turn it to line up the rear sprocket ; so easy :}
We will all have ways of doing things and choice is a nice feature in life . Calm down , everyone ; we are just doing things our preferred way :}

[SD1too]

I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=204919 )
Are you sure Einar? According to your link, you fabricated a tool to hold the front sprockets. I thought that "Kaiser's theory" is that no special tools whatsoever are required. :shrug:

Simon

[Mike Noc]

Hi all,

I just have had a quick look at some old pictures and others found on the net. Both sprockets on the rear have notches which go in line with the key. The inlet sprocket also have a line through its center. I assume that when engine is put in "safe position", these notches shall line up through the center between the sprockets. Putting a steel ruler on the lines on the inlet sprocket and check if it mates up with the center of the exhaust sprocket can then give you an indication that the floating sprocket on the front are properly lined up or not. Does this make sense???


It makes perfect sense and that is I think what anyone would assume when looking at the timing marks - that they should align.

However, it has been mentioned before and one response given was this:

I'm sorry, but that is incorrect information.

I don't want to argue the point with you yet again so will not be making further posts in this thread, but as the designer of both the cam drive system and the setting tools, I think I have some knowledge of why the tools should be used whenever possible.

Just for information, I did issue an instruction for setting the timing without tools for use on Diplomatic Service cars. This was achieved by scribing new timing marks on the rear pulleys rather than using the existing marks. These are only there to aid positioning and to set timing between the inlet and exhaust cam. It is only coincidence that they nearly align when the engine is set to its timing position. Perhaps I should have moved the marks round a few degrees to avoid the confusion.

If I remember correctly, the fixed marks on the rear pulleys give balanced timing between the inlet and exhaust profiles. On many engines this turns out to be the optimum setting and is a good place to start. However, production tooling is frozen at least 12 months before job 1 whereas the engine tune including ignition, fuel and cam timing are subject to change right up to the wire and sometimes well beyond. The optimised setting for cam timing on the V6 turned out not to be the balanced setting, but was a little retarded (or was it advanced?) from this position and this timing figure is set by the front timing tool. It changed again for the 190 engine and this requires another setting.

The marks on the rear pulleys are still required in order to set the timing between inlet and exhaust cams. This was originally going to be a floating setting as used on the front, but it was found that we could get away with fixed pulleys (just!).

That really is about all I have to say.

Correct use of the tools also prevents damage to the camshafts while tightening the bolts as you mention.

The engine has "floating" front pulleys (not positively keyed to the cams) because there is so much tolerance build up in the cam drive system. The cams are therefore positioned by the setting tools and then the pulleys bolted up tight. Because this system was being used, the length tolerance of the belt was left very wide. If the pulleys are left in position, the new belt may well be of significantly different length to the old one. This will affect the cam timing.

In practice, you would be very unlucky to have the original belt at one end of the length tolerance and the replacement at the other so the engine will probably run OK.

The rear belts are a bit tricky with no fitting tools, but it can be done.

I would change the pump and tensioner at the same time.

You will not be able to measure the difference between the belts, just go for it and hope. Mark up the old belt against marks on the pulleys, then transfer these marks to the new belt.

You can remove the bolts for the rear belt pulleys. In fact, you will have to, but they are keyed so will go back on correctly. The problem is that the tooling puts tension on the belt before it is fitted. You could probably get round this using a wooden wedge between the pulleys or something?

Something to remember when doing up the pulley bolts - hold the camshaft at the same end as the bolt you are working on. The cam itself is not designed to react this sort of torque down its length.

And if you look at the Landrover official RAVE publication for replacing the KV6 timing belts you will find this;

Refit:
NOTE: Following front or rear timing belt
refitment, it is possible that, after rotating the
engine and positioning the crankshaft pulley to
the 'SAFE' position, the timing marks on the
rear timing gears may be misaligned. This
misalignment is acceptable provided that the
timing belt refitting procedure was carried out
correctly.


If anyone is setting their timing using the tools then perhaps they can put a straight edge across the marks afterwards and see how accurately they align?

This forum usually comes up with the correct technical information once everything has been kicked about, and it would be good to get a definitive answer to this one. :}

[kaiser]

My God!
We need another bucket of pop corn!

[beinet1]

Thanks Mike,

This clears up a few questions and rumors :) Makes sense to me.

[marinabrian]

I'm jolly glad I have a set of the factory tools for this job, no guesswork needed :D

[SideValve]

Fascinating discussion. Almost wish I had a spare engine lying about to play with.

In the mean time, I've only done 4 cylinder engines and have just lined the marks up. It seems sensible to me that a V6 would also involve lining up the rear marks then, presuming the crank is where it should be, doing up that end.
However I can appreciate that timing might not be 100% optimal and that varying it might produce better results especially when running non-standard exhausts or inlets.
I've not seen what these tools provide. If you use them what do they let you vary inlet vs exhaust or inlet & exhaust vs the crank? And what is the process? I've tried it on old bikes using discs to identify degrees past where the valves start to open/close but that's easy to spot on 350 single....
Just idle interest but I'd be interested to know the answer.

[Mike Noc]

I've not seen what these tools provide. If you use them what do they let you vary inlet vs exhaust or inlet & exhaust vs the crank? And what is the process?


The tools will lock the two camshafts driven from the front belt in the correct timing position, and pin the crankshaft in the correct timing position.

This allows you to set the tension for the front belt independently of the timing, and when you have the tension correct you can tighten the two front floating sprockets to the camshafts.

As well as locking the camshafts in the correct position, they also allow you tighten the holding bolts safely - if you don't use them and put a spanner on the other end of the camshaft you risk snapping it.











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