Perplexing 1.8 idle and smoke issues

[KenR]

Hi folks,it's been a while. I've had my 1.8 Cowley built 75 for a few months and love it. It's been a perfect runner and never let me down.

The PO was fastidious and spent literally thousands on the cars needs. This included a replacement Ivor Searle engine about 20 thousand miles ago.

I've been in hospital recently and hadn't started the car in a week and a bit as I am not able to drive yet. Normally a first turn of the key has the car purring into life. Nope, not this time. It was difficult to start and ran like an absolute pig.Idle would not stabilise and I had to blip the throttle to keep it running and this has become worse. Blue smoke (petrol smelling) is drifting out of the exhaust and the join at the exhaust manifold down tubes and where the cat joins the system. I thought I'd spilled WD40 on it and wiped it off but it reappears and causes quite the cloud of smoke when it is burning off. No coolant loss, no mayo on the dipstick or oil filler cap. No temp gauge woes prior to this, although I know it is heavily dampened. There is evidence of K Seal in the header tank although this was done due to a heater matrix leak at some point in the cars history.

The coolant cap is not pressurising either. No hose leaks seen.

The only minimal moistness I can see and it really is just that, is on the very top of the front of the exhaust manifold above the second N/S down tube.

Possiblity that the inlet gasket is leaking and seeping into the exhaust and down the remaining down tubes?

Is there a K series enthusiast who is near North London (Edmonton/Enfield) who might be able to have a look for me as I can't yet drive due to just having had a major stomach op and wouldn't be keen on the car driving anywhere due to the smoke being pumped out anyway. Obv petrol and food covered.

Thanks.

Ken

[KenR]

Thought that there might have been one or two comments at least :shrug:

[LeRich]

A failing inlet manifold gasket wouldn't leak coolant into the exhaust - it would leak externally, causing wet spots and/or crystal build-up on the back of the engine or it would leak internally, allowing coolant into the cylinders, resulting in lumpy running.

What's your coolant level like?

Blue smoke would usually indicate oil is being burnt.

[SD1too]

Blue smoke (petrol smelling) is drifting out of the exhaust and the join at the exhaust manifold down tubes and where the cat joins the system ...
I can’t see how this can be the result of an inlet manifold leak. :confused: Blue smoke usually means burning oil and the smell of petrol indicates incomplete combustion. I hate to say it but I think that you may have head gasket failure.
Don’t attempt to start it again because petrol will destroy the catalytic converter.
There is evidence of K Seal in the header tank ...
Oh dear. :cry: You’ll also need to flush the cooling system repeatedly to try to get rid of the devil’s potion. :devil:

Simon

[roverbarmy]

If it has been standing a while in the cold/damp weather, it may be damp around the coil packs/leads. This may have led to a misfire and contaminated plugs. Remove them all, dry out thoroughly and preferably, fit a set of new plugs, gapped correctly. It makes a world of difference.;)

[KenR]

I whipped off the plugs/coil pack cover and everything in there was as dry as a bone. I didn't have a long reach plug spanner to enable me to check the plugs, that will happen soon though.

The leaking fluid onto the down pipes is an odd one as I simply cannot see a hugely obvious source.

I agree with the Devils fluid.

Arrghh, if it is the HGF then it's game over really as I have neither the time, ability or cash to sort.

Thanks for the responses guys.

[Dawn]

I feel your pain on this one. I bought a 1.8 for £150 to save it as its an Arran white Cowley. I knew going in it could have HGF, but at the time thought I had the money to do it. I trusted a local specialist (supposedly) £750 later and its doing all kinds of weird stuff like yours! One minute oil loss, then random water loss. No mayo, no misfire, gurgles behind the dash, sometimes pressure under rad cap, sometimes not! Allsorts!

One of the experts on here had a quick look and explained there is insane pressure blowing out the oil cap and its pretty bad.

Could you find the nearest club expert to have a look. Might give you a definite answer?

[kaiser]

It could well be an inlet manifold that leaks!
If the manifold leaks, it can leak to the outside and to the inside, via the inlet valves.
If the car has been standing for a long period, it is possible to have a bit of water in the cylinder(s).
That would make the engine difficult to start, the idle lumpy and produce some smoke (steam) but should clear as the engine runs.
Let us know what you find.!

[murphyv310]

Don't condemn the head gasket.
If the car has been sitting and not used for some time and it was fine previously I would look elsewhere first.
The inlet manifold gasket is a good point but examining the plugs would be my first thing to do, look for rust on the end of the threaded part and for oil contamination also for one or two that are unusually clean.
Report back once you have done these checks.

One other thing is the engine coolant sensor may be duff giving a very low reading (check on the on board diagnostics) there just might be too much fuel if the ECU thinks it is very cold and the rich mixture could be the fuel smell and smoke. May even be flooded.

[KenR]

Ok, had a look in good daylight, firstly, the down tube/CAT joint issue. That bit is pretty much soaked, although not dripping. It was enough to get a finger dab though and it smells and feels like oil. Not coolant which I originally suspected. However, I am struggling to see where the actual leakage is coming from, very puzzling.

The plugs. Obviously Sods Law means that each and every plug socket in my possession is the wrong one. I wasn't able to pop out any of the plugs, hopefully, my mate will have one that he can bring tomorrow. I will Google the size shortly. 16mm Hex, doh! However, the one that was slim enough to fit over the plug came up with a coating of lovely fresh looking oil at the first mm or 2 of the plug socket. That was the furthest O/S one and each subsequent tube appeared to have at least some amount of oil nestling at the bottom although the initial one seemed to have the most from what I could see, albeit somewhat restricted viewing 'cos long tube.

So, further ideas on a postcard? Not starting to look especially good methinks.

Thanks again for the responses thus far. :)

[KenR]

Leaking rocker cover gasket???

[KenR]

Straws.... Clutching..... Wildy.

[roverbarmy]

Fresh oil in the plug cavity sounds like a spillage when filling or topping up the oil. A spark will track via the oil, to the head, causing the misfire. Also check the cam cover seal for leakage. Clean the oil out before removing the plug or the oil will drop straight into the combustion chamber. Don't have HGF paranoia, there's lots to check first, especially as it was running fine before.;)

[KenR]

The symptoms kind of fit........

[slovcan]

Hi Ken,

There are a lot of logical ideas here. I don't see any symptoms that point to head gasket failure. If it was it is certain you would have oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil or a consistently dead cylinder - or some combination of those 3. I think you may have a couple of smaller issues happening. The oil in the spark plug wells is the main symptom of cam cover gasket/seal leakage. Some cam cover gasket systems use separate o-ring seals at the bottom of the spark plug wells. I haven't seen one of these engines, but this problem (oil in plug wells) is common with many engine manufacturers. It will cause rough running of the engine as Roverbarmy said. The exhaust smoke is not conclusive. Is it definitely blue? Could it be grey or black? Rich running would likely result in grey smoke which when combined with the normal exhaust condensate vapours in cooler weather could look blueish, I guess. Incomplete combustion due to misfire caused by the oil in the plug wells may imitate rich mixture for that (those) cylinder(s). If it was smoke from a head gasket failure, it would almost certainly be white and smell distinctly sweet like antifreeze.

Was there anything noteworthy about your last drive in the car before the week long layup?

Cheers,
Glenn

[KenR]

Hi Glenn, the car has been absolutely faultless running-wise until I had to leave it alone for my stomach op on the 18th and am not allowed to drive for another few days. However, I went to start her up as I have done previously and that is when it all went wrong, I didn't get the opportunity initially to really have a good look at the smoke coming out of the exhaust but have since realised it is not white, nor does it smell of coolant at all. It is nearer a very light blue/grey colour which would tie in with the other symptoms of cam cover gasket death.

Feel more reassured now and will tackle this as soon as the gasket arrives. In the interim, I am in the process of cleaning out the oil from the plug tubes and I will clean up the leakage on the exhaust.

Worth a try for the cost of a gasket and a bit of time. I'll hang fire on changing the inlet manifold gasket just yet.

Thanks again.

[murphyv310]

Hi.
An external oil leak will not cause the engine to sound rough or emit smoke from the exhaust tail pipe. Yes it can drip into the plug hole recesses and onto the exhaust and burn off but if you didn't have these issues before it wasn't run for a week or two well there is something amiss.
A totally daft suggestion could be that you had a severe frost and if the cooling system had no antifreeze then you may have a cracked head or something else causing a big oil leak due to a fracture.
One thing I'd say is although the coolant had K seal in it, not every time does it cause an issue, again a perfectly good running car wont suddenly go wrong when left for a week or so with K seal in it. Look elsewhere for the problem.

Head Gaskets don't fail when a car is not running, its overheating, low coolant etc that gives HGF.

[KenR]

Okay, I replaced the cam cover gasket this afternoon. Nice and simple. Job done.

Plugs were sooty, plus oily on plug number 3, the one the N/S coil pack sits on.

Good sparks happening.

Started the car, exactly the same. Missing and blue/grey smoke issuing forth from the exhaust although no major oily mess in the tail pipe itself.

Friend thinks poss injector issue or HGF...

I have no clue. He isn't a fuel injection fiddler.

He focuses on older stuff tbh. Like early 1900's Levassor taxis and so on and other things a bit newer but not by much.

[roverbarmy]

Did you put new plugs in?

[kelvo]

Okay, I replaced the cam cover gasket this afternoon. Nice and simple. Job done.

Plugs were sooty, plus oily on plug number 3, the one the N/S coil pack sits on.

Good sparks happening.

Started the car, exactly the same. Missing and blue/grey smoke issuing forth from the exhaust although no major oily mess in the tail pipe itself.

Friend thinks poss injector issue or HGF...

I have no clue. He isn't a fuel injection fiddler.

He focuses on older stuff tbh. Like early 1900's Levassor taxis and so on and other things a bit newer but not by much.

sooty plugs would indicate a mixture fault to me, in much the same way as a carb running rich. The oily plug would indicate the one that is probably not firing properly and fouling up. The rich running and oil would certainly cause the smoke.

Not sure if it's possible with modern electronics but with engine running you could remove a plug lead at a time and see what difference that makes, if there is no difference when you take the plug lead off, that is the faulty cylinder.

Compression test would indicate possible HGF, although as others have said it is unlikely to happen whilst standing.

Possible injector I suppose, that would be feasible and possibly it may be over-compensating and over fuelling the other cylinders? My dad did have a Renault 25 that had starting problems and that turned out to be coolant temp defective - obviously didn't know what mixture strength to set.

[KenR]

Hi.No, I didn't. Not at that point anyway. The gaps looked a bit wide but am not exactly sure on the correct gapping on these.

[KenR]

Not really sure of the next step tbh. Am kind of approaching my mechanical plateau.

Old Triumphs I can deal with but this new fangled stuff...... lol.

[roverbarmy]

Once a plug has been oily, it is very difficult to clean it properly. I've had vehicles in the past and had serious struggles to get them running correctly (particularly motorcycles) and a new set of plugs has transformed them. It's a lot cheaper than pulling the head off! You could try swapping plugs over from a good cylinder if you just want to experiment.:shrug:A good spray with carb cleaner may clean the oil off and a touch with a blow torch to burn off any deposits. Take care though, the carb cleaner is highly inflammable!;)

[KenR]

Point taken lol. Iwill splash out on a new set of plugs tomorrow. :}

[murphyv310]

I'd agree that an oily plug is a pain to clean.
Fit a new set and if the problem still exists it my be prudent to actually take it on the road and see if you can clear it, a bit of revs may be the answer. I've seen carbon move onto plugs in the past and an Italian tune up can clear it.
Incidentally has the car used oil in the past?

[KenR]

Not sure about the past usage of oil as the engine in there now was a replacement 20K ago.

[KenR]

New plugs fitted. Difference? Nope, none.

[KenR]

Only really the inlet manifold gasket to change. I have one to fit.

However, wondering if it is worth the hassle.

[roverbarmy]

Only really the inlet manifold gasket to change. I have one to fit.

However, wondering if it is worth the hassle.
Definitely worth it. A process of elimination. If it was running fine before, there's no reason why it should fail after only a week of standing. A leaking inlet manifold gasket would be my next port of call.

[slovcan]

Only really the inlet manifold gasket to change. I have one to fit.

However, wondering if it is worth the hassle.

Another member mentioned disabling the cylinders one at a time to try to identify a particular cylinder that is causing the problem. That is called a power balance test. Remove the spark from cylinder #1 (unplug the coil?) while the engine is running and note how much the RPM drops. Plug it back in and move to #2, then #3, etc. The faulty cylinder won't lose RPM when unplugged. The good cylinders should drop by about the same RPM each.

If you can isolate a bad cylinder swap its coil with one of the good ones. Do another power balance test and see if the problem moves to the new cylinder with the suspect coil.

Don't give up.

Glenn

[KenR]

Old plug,same across the remaining three,although the plug in the 2nd cylinder from the N/S was more oily than sooty if that makes sense.

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq9/fritzblue/Plug_zpsn5hyu1gr.jpg

[suzublu]

That gap's huuuuge:eek: .75mm to .80mm;)

[KenR]

It is. New ones are fine though.

[kelvo]

Old plug,same across the remaining three,although the plug in the 2nd cylinder from the N/S was more oily than sooty if that makes sense.

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq9/fritzblue/Plug_zpsn5hyu1gr.jpg

I would go with a fuel issue judging by how sooty they are, it's running far too rich so this could be a sensor related issue, the oily one might be unrelated - so times you do find plugs are uneven.

If the engines not had chance to get up to working temperature then they will have fouled up.

I know you can check the coolant temp via the dashboard diagnostics - whether this is the same signal that feed the fuel injection I'm not sure (sure someone will know). It may be thinking that the temperature is far colder than it is and giving a far richer mixture than the engine can run with, it's also not then adjusting the mixture as it warms up.

I would probably suggest getting a good mobile mechanic to look at it - they may well be able to test the various sensors and injectors, or plug into the diagnostics - that may show up straight away the cause, rather than just random component changes.

when my dad had a similar problem on his Volvo 740 it turned out to be the MAF sensor had failed.

[dave lincs]

There must be a local member who could have a look at this poor old car and get it sorted? if I was local I would soon be there looking at it :}

[KenR]

I think a K series savvy person would be a NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- god send tbh.

[KenR]

I hope no-one gets me wrong, I love the car and when it was running and driving, it was great. I have a door actuator to put on it and also new discs and pads for the front. Not something I would do for a car that I dislike.

If it was a straightforward fix then no worries, however, I can handle stuff on old cars without too much stress, and to a degree with more modern stuff but there is a fine line between throwing money at something that sadly has a relatively low value anyway in the hope that what I do might resolve the issue and putting money into something that will actually sort the issue out.

Okay, so the plugs needed replacing anyway, so done. The cam cover gasket was clearly tired and needed replacing, so done. The jobs so far have been lovely and simple. Inlet manifold, maybe it is that, maybe not. It will get done and I will see what happens. Beyond that my skill level quickly goes to pot.

Anything beyond this and I simply do not have a clue, the ability or money to bring about a fix. I have to make a balanced decision.

I would be happy to sell it to someone on here and If that someone with the time and ability to fix it easily and cheaply does so,then so much the better and good on them. If not, the bridge beckons at £160 for me and yes it would be sad that another one will have bitten the dust but if that is the only route left then that is what will happen.

Anyway, lets see what happens after the inlet manifold gasket fix.

[kaiser]

Get the car assessed by somebody competent and take it from there.

[murphyv310]

Hi Ken.
The 1.8 K series in the 75 and other Rovers only have two coil packs. It uses a "Wasted Spark" system, in other words one end of the coil goes to one plug and the other end to another, what happens is one plug fires just before TDC on the compression stroke and the other in the exhaust stroke on the opposite cylinder and vice versa same with the other coil.
The problem here is if you pull a plug lead off then you'll be disabling two cylinders and it then gets confusing.
One plug is very sooty, that leads me to think that the cylinder it lives in is getting over-fuelled, this could be a stuck injector or an electronic issue, perhaps a T4 session should be tried, the over fuelling could be washing the oil film in the bore and making a mixture of black and blue smoke, this could also be lying in the cat and exhaust, not good for a cat TBH.
Are you getting the engine management light on? If so you could read the codes with Torq and an ELM327 bluetooth dongle, this may help your diagnoses. It may be possible to unplug the injector on the sooty cylinder and see if it makes a difference at all, if nothing changes then it "could" well be a stuck injector.
Good Luck

[KenR]

Hi Trevor, the EML hasn't illuminated at all. I have nothing to actually plug in and read any issues which is a bit frustrating. The fuelling issue idea does have merit. All the plugs are very, very sooty but one is slightly oily as well.

[KenR]

Just out of interest, how would one unplug and remove an injector?

[kaiser]

this does not make any sense. If you remove one spark plug lead, you only disable the plug that is connected to that lead.
Surely.:shrug:





Hi Ken.
The 1.8 K series in the 75 and other Rovers only have two coil packs. It uses a "Wasted Spark" system, in other words one end of the coil goes to one plug and the other end to another, what happens is one plug fires just before TDC on the compression stroke and the other in the exhaust stroke on the opposite cylinder and vice versa same with the other coil.
The problem here is if you pull a plug lead off then you'll be disabling two cylinders and it then gets confusing.
......
Good Luck

[T-Cut]

If the coolant sensor was broken or its signal was lost, the high speed cooling fan would start at ignition on. Since you haven't mentioned the fan, the ECU is receiving a temperature signal signal. The question might be asked, what signal (temperature)? You might run the Trip Screen Diagnostic Routine without starting the engine and checking what it says about coolant temperature.

TC

[KenR]

I'll run it tomorrow and report back. Don't the diagnostics give a reading for the injectors too or did I imagine that? . Just out of interest, how is the fan operation linked to the rough running and other related skullduggery?

[KenR]

Okay, decided to run the car up to temp this morning irrespective. Que tons of 'emissions' out of the exhaust but, when up to temp an idle was obtained. Still doesn't sound quite right but much better and as I said, it seems to hold a steadier idle at normal revs.

The seepage from the exhaust manifold was more so, not gushing but now involving two spots on the right hand side of the manifold as you look at it from the front. Wet stuff dripping down therefore cannot be oil as the stuff should have combusted given the amount on there and the engine temps involved, ergo..... coolant. No major coolant leakage seen anywhere else.

I had a better look at the nuts holding the inlet manifold in place and I swear two of the three 13mm nuts looked a little 'moist'. Two of them actually accepted some nipping up. Am going to lob some more petrol in the tank later, along with a bit of injector cleaner. Can't do any harm, right. The inlet manifold gasket will be fettled tomnorrow.

[roverbarmy]

Sounds like it's getting there.:}

[rustymotor]

Hi, just reading this thread and you mention no3 plug fouled up, as another member mentioned, you need some diagnostics on the old girl.. compression test, possible piston ring stuck, T4 for sensor issues, intermittent coil fault, would save you a load of time. :}

[murphyv310]

this does not make any sense. If you remove one spark plug lead, you only disable the plug that is connected to that lead.
Surely.:shrug:

Hi Kaiser.
You need to allow a return for the plug left in the cylinder to fire, so pulling one plug lead means there is no current flow. Ideally put a bolt or length of wire in the plug cap and ground it to the head etc, this will ensure the opposite plug fires.
I remember reading threads on occasions where a plug lead had been pulled on a 4 pot "K" and the engine only runs on two, also in the 2CV pulling one plug lead the engine stops.