Rover 75 Con CDTi Auto Tourer - Voltage reg and brush or new Alternator ?

[yellownev]

Hi, My lovely 75 automatic had the ignominy of a 200 mile trip on the back of a recovery vehicle yesterday. 66k in ten years before me and I have done that again in three years trouble free until now.

Ready for the drive south and the battery light was on on the dash.

Did the volt check on the instrument panel and it was showing 11.3 volts

First breakdown guy arrived with no meter !! Pulled at a few cables and diagnosed a dead alternator.

I did an oil change with filter last week but was very careful to avoid oil on the alternator.

The battery is what was on the car when I brought it - no starting problems.

Coincidentally discount Rover MG spares emailed me with offers on replacement regulator and brushes for the alternator.

Question to the wise and all knowing is ... is it worth a punt on replacing the regulator and brushes or just get it shipped to someone (recommendations in the Chichester area) to put on a new Alternator and take my hard earned?

Any advice appreciated especially if there are meter tests I can do to check battery alternator regulator etc?

TIA Nev

[shaunlee75]

Hi, My lovely 75 automatic had the ignominy of a 200 mile trip on the back of a recovery vehicle yesterday. 66k in ten years before me and I have done that again in three years trouble free until now.

Ready for the drive south and the battery light was on on the dash.

Did the volt check on the instrument panel and it was showing 11.3 volts

First breakdown guy arrived with no meter !! Pulled at a few cables and diagnosed a dead alternator.

I did an oil change with filter last week but was very careful to avoid oil on the alternator.

The battery is what was on the car when I brought it - no starting problems.

Coincidentally discount Rover MG spares emailed me with offers on replacement regulator and brushes for the alternator.

Question to the wise and all knowing is ... is it worth a punt on replacing the regulator and brushes or just get it shipped to someone (recommendations in the Chichester area) to put on a new Alternator and take my hard earned?

Any advice appreciated especially if there are meter tests I can do to check battery alternator regulator etc?

TIA Nev
Nev,

Check my recent post regarding regulator vs alternator.
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=280626 (https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=280626)

While Mat and his regulator service is top notch, and it is fairly easy to change the regulator, bear in mind the potential secondary costs if it is not just the regulator;-)

[yellownev]

Nev,

Check my recent post regarding regulator vs alternator.
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=280626 (https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=280626)

While Mat and his regulator service is top notch, and it is fairly easy to change the regulator, bear in mind the potential secondary costs if it is not just the regulator;-)

Hi Shaun, thanks for replying - I have read many posts on the subject as you might imagine - one problem have is I am 200 miles from my multi meter and only have motorcycle chargers so Mr Amazon is delivering me a 20 amp charger and a multimeter so I can charge the battery and check some voltages in case it is a dead battery before I go for the regulator and brushes - if that does not work then it will have to be an auto electrician as I don't fancy messing with belts. Of course i'll need a full battery to get me a few miles to a garage!!

[Amsca2]

Did the mechanics of recovery men ever check her over while she was running. I.e. a jump start?

For me I'd try the regulator first but only due to cost an awkwardness to fit an alternator.

[yellownev]

Did the mechanics of recovery men ever check her over while she was running. I.e. a jump start?

For me I'd try the regulator first but only due to cost an awkwardness to fit an alternator.

Hi, No the first guy did not even have a multimeter on his vehicle !! other two were just interested (or not) in loading the old girl on the back of their wagons.

I am temped to go for the regulator first, subject to ensuring the battery is ok (I own Honda bikes so know how regulators can fail) and if that is ok then I'll try the kit....

[COLVERT]

Charge your battery first. Give it a good 24 hours.

The charge rate must be 5 amps not 20 or you will cook your battery.--:eek:

The regulator and brushes are a good idea PROVIDING the slip rings on the armature are in good condition. ( You can only tell by removing the existing brush pack and looking through the opening.---:duh:--)


Happy motoring.---:}

[yellownev]

Charge your battery first. Give it a good 24 hours.

The charge rate must be 5 amps not 20 or you will cook your battery.--:eek:

The regulator and brushes are a good idea PROVIDING the slip rings on the armature are in good condition. ( You can only tell by removing the existing brush pack and looking through the opening.---:duh:--)


Happy motoring.---:}

Thanks for the advice, if it warms up (ever) then I'll get back out and take the back cover off the alternator and remove the existing regulator and see what the slip rings look like before I buy the kit....

[Lancpudn]

Instead of carrying my multi meter around I have one of these smart duel USB adapters which has a digital display of the battery state of charge.
It's cheap as chips & works well for £2.92 delivered :eek:

https://www.banggood.com/FN05-Dual-USB-Ports-Smart-Current-LED-Display-Car-Charger-for-iPhone-8-Xiaomi-MIX-2-Samsung-S8-p-1200098.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN

At a glance I can see my standing voltage 12.6 when I turn the key on & 14.4 when the engine is running.

[yellownev]

Instead of carrying my multi meter around I have one of these smart duel USB adapters which has a digital display of the battery state of charge.
It's cheap as chips & works well for £2.92 delivered :eek:

https://www.banggood.com/FN05-Dual-USB-Ports-Smart-Current-LED-Display-Car-Charger-for-iPhone-8-Xiaomi-MIX-2-Samsung-S8-p-1200098.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=CN

At a glance I can see my standing voltage 12.6 when I turn the key on & 14.4 when the engine is running.

Thats a great tip and a good price - ordered it just now. Hopefully when the car is sorted it'll be useful on my canal boat !!

[Lancpudn]

Thats a great tip and a good price - ordered it just now. Hopefully when the car is sorted it'll be useful on my canal boat !!


I have connected to my phone cable and just plug it in when I get in the car.
It will give you the state of a battery on any car without even opening the bonnet.:}

[yellownev]

So.... got the back off the alternator and now have the regulator off. I'll post some advice on the hows on this later but for now looking for advice on the state of the slip rings on the armature....

What do we think, is it worth getting a new brush and regulator kit? There are groves in both ....but there is still copper - how thick is the copper ?

TIA

Nev

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/323255ab26aa4a3020.jpg

[marinabrian]

So.... got the back off the alternator and now have the regulator off. I'll post some advice on the hows on this later but for now looking for advice on the state of the slip rings on the armature....

What do we think, is it worth getting a new brush and regulator kit? There are groves in both ....but there is still copper - how thick is the copper ?

TIA

Nev

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/323255ab26aa4a3020.jpg

They don't look that bad, a quick clean up with some red scotchbrite, dusted off and dare I say it, what do the brushes look like on the regulator?

If you are a proper tightwad/recycling person like me, how about changing just the brushes?

Dead easy if you have a soldering iron, and a bit of mechanical nouse ;)

LINK (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VALEO-ALTERNATOR-BRUSHES-4-6MM-X-6-4MM-X-14-5MM/112658728895?hash=item1a3afbc7bf:g:TdAAAOSwAaJaGuy K)

Brian :D

[yellownev]

Thanks Brian,

The brushes look like this

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/323255ab2f7f0a2933.jpg

Thats them fully out so I am hoping they are worn to the point of loosing contact ?

... now you have me thinking about just brush replacements :duh:

[marinabrian]

Thanks Brian,

The brushes look like this

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/323255ab2f7f0a2933.jpg

Thats them fully out so I am hoping they are worn to the point of loosing contact ?

... now you have me thinking about just brush replacements :duh:

Yes, they are worn out ;)

Compare to a new set........

http://i57.tinypic.com/eb1xko.jpg

Get a set of the ones I linked to , and change them before committing to a new regulator :)

The black plastic cap which covers the armature sliprings has another purpose, you remove it carefully prior to changing the brushes, but when the new brushes are in place, you depress them against their springs, and push the black cap almost home.

This retains the brushes in their retracted position, and after you bolt the regulator back onto the alternator, push it fully home and the brushes will spring out into position ;)

Quite a clever design I thought, prevents the risk of breaking the brushes during the regulator fitting :)

Best of luck

Brian :D

[yellownev]

Typical, after troubling you for advice I find the godfather of threads for all things brush and regulator replacement/advice

Link here in case anyone comes this way for a solution

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=162641

Thanks for the responses to date - still to sort but confidence is high to get me going but I'll still seek a full alternator swap out as I recon the slip rings have limited life - 130k done on the original alternator.

[COLVERT]

Typical, after troubling you for advice I find the godfather of threads for all things brush and regulator replacement/advice

Link here in case anyone comes this way for a solution

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=162641

Thanks for the responses to date - still to sort but confidence is high to get me going but I'll still seek a full alternator swap out as I recon the slip rings have limited life - 130k done on the original alternator.

Those rings are definitely OK to re-use. Under normal conditions there is virtually NO slip ring wear. They only start to go when the brushes are so badly worn there is almost no pressure on the rings. ( The brushes start to arc and burn the rings. )
With new brushes you will be back almost to square one.

Save your money and fit new brushes as Brian, above, has said.---:D:D:D

[cb750chris]

Hi Nev,
I have only just seen this thread (slightly late to the thread then)
But if you are stuck, give me a shout - I am only down the road in Fareham, and can probably sort you out.

Oh, and at 130K, the rings are probably ok, mine are at 189K, and still going ok

Regards
Chris

[yellownev]

Hi Nev,
I have only just seen this thread (slightly late to the thread then)
But if you are stuck, give me a shout - I am only down the road in Fareham, and can probably sort you out.

Oh, and at 130K, the rings are probably ok, mine are at 189K, and still going ok

Regards
Chris

Hi Chris,

If you can help it would be appreciated, have you access to a regulator? Tried the brush change and still not charging so i am working up the line now and need a regulator.... seems they are like hens teeth to get next day. Matt can get me one but next Wednesday - I need to do a 200 mile trip on Wednesday !! I am in West Ashling and have a bike... off to try one more avenue Superstart in Emsworth.

[yellownev]

Well I am thinking the alternator is Fubarr'd. Tried the new brushes nothing and today I have spent a nice couple of hours in a scrap yard down here taking the regulator off an 03 scrapper. Fitted it to mine and - nothing.

So I have either been unlucky with the scrap regulator ( unlikely) or I have a dead alternator - I was under the impression these things did not die easily.

Fed up with it now - I think it'll be a local garage to sort. :duh:

[klarzy]

Well I am thinking the alternator is Fubarr'd. Tried the new brushes nothing and today I have spent a nice couple of hours in a scrap yard down here taking the regulator off an 03 scrapper. Fitted it to mine and - nothing.

So I have either been unlucky with the scrap regulator ( unlikely) or I have a dead alternator - I was under the impression these things did not die easily.

Fed up with it now - I think it'll be a local garage to sort. :duh:

You have checked the fuse on the exciter side of the alternator circuit??

[cb750chris]

The offer still stands, if you need a hand fitting an alternator, and you can get over to me I will help you. Shame all my regulators were 3 pin jobbies.

If you go to a local garage it may be worth getting the belts replaced at the same time, as that should only be a materials cost.

In fact, stating the obvious, the belt is fitted and turning the alternator, isn't it? (Quick check would be, is the steering a lot lighter when the engine is running, compared to engine stopped)

Regards
Chris

[yellownev]

You have checked the fuse on the exciter side of the alternator circuit??

Hi Klarzy, not sure which that might be, some have said fuse 36 needs checking (5amp) but I have pulled and checked all 5 amp fuses and they are all ok.

[klarzy]

The offer still stands, if you need a hand fitting an alternator, and you can get over to me I will help you. Shame all my regulators were 3 pin jobbies.

If you go to a local garage it may be worth getting the belts replaced at the same time, as that should only be a materials cost.

In fact, stating the obvious, the belt is fitted and turning the alternator, isn't it? (Quick check would be, is the steering a lot lighter when the engine is running, compared to engine stopped)

Regards
Chris

you can fit a 3 pin no problem.... the 3rd pin in the socket of 3 pin OEM cars goes nowhere anyways? if you undo the plug, it is not conneted

[klarzy]

Hi Klarzy, not sure which that might be, some have said fuse 36 needs checking (5amp) but I have pulled and checked all 5 amp fuses and they are all ok.

that was the one i was thinking of...

[cb750chris]

you can fit a 3 pin no problem.... the 3rd pin in the socket of 3 pin OEM cars goes nowhere anyways? if you undo the plug, it is not conneted

You can fit a 3 pin alternator in place of a 2 pin alternator.
But the regulators are not interchangable as the inners of the alternators are different, see the pictures on dmgrs for comparison of the 2 regulators (https://www.dmgrs.co.uk/products/rover-75-mg-zt-cdti-alternator-regulator-and-brush-kit-fits-yle000260-and-yle102500)

[klarzy]

You can fit a 3 pin alternator in place of a 2 pin alternator.
But the regulators are not interchangable as the inners of the alternators are different, see the pictures on dmgrs for comparison of the 2 regulators (https://www.dmgrs.co.uk/products/rover-75-mg-zt-cdti-alternator-regulator-and-brush-kit-fits-yle000260-and-yle102500)

i have taken a 2 pin alt and regulator off of a diesel and replaced it with a new alternator with 3 pin.... it worked flawlessly.... when i opened a used 3 pin regulator to see what was inside... pin 3 was not connected to anything...:shrug:

[yellownev]

The offer still stands, if you need a hand fitting an alternator, and you can get over to me I will help you. Shame all my regulators were 3 pin jobbies.

If you go to a local garage it may be worth getting the belts replaced at the same time, as that should only be a materials cost.

In fact, stating the obvious, the belt is fitted and turning the alternator, isn't it? (Quick check would be, is the steering a lot lighter when the engine is running, compared to engine stopped)

Regards
Chris

Thanks Chris, you are a real gent, problem is time to get an alternator and then fit it... I have to be in Staffs on Wednesday so may well order up a alternator and bring it over some point after Easter .... ? Belts are new Jules fitted them in November..just tempting myself with one last roll of the dice with a new regulator from Discount spares ....

[cb750chris]

i have taken a 2 pin alt and regulator off of a diesel and replaced it with a new alternator with 3 pin.... it worked flawlessly.... when i opened a used 3 pin regulator to see what was inside... pin 3 was not connected to anything...:shrug:

I agree, the 3rd pin on the regulator is not connected, so at the engine level you can fit 2 or 3 pin alternators, and both types will work fine.

However within an alternator, the 3 pin regulator will not fit in the place of a 2 pin regulator, as the screws (connectors) are in different places. So the correct regulator type is required for the alternator fitted, which was the problem I have in that I have a spare regulator, but it is the 3 pin type, but the op has a 2 pin alternator so my spare won't fit to sort the op out.

[klarzy]

I agree, the 3rd pin on the regulator is not connected, so at the engine level you can fit 2 or 3 pin alternators, and both types will work fine.

However within an alternator, the 3 pin regulator will not fit in the place of a 2 pin regulator, as the screws (connectors) are in different places. So the correct regulator type is required for the alternator fitted, which was the problem I have in that I have a spare regulator, but it is the 3 pin type, but the op has a 2 pin alternator so my spare won't fit to sort the op out.

I see, but if you swap the whole alternator (his commutator rings looked quite worn??) then its not an issue? plug and play so to speak...

[yellownev]

To complete the circle on this request for help - I ended up with a new alternator. Tried new brushes, and a second hand regulator with no results so as I needed a reliable car and quickly I had a new alternator fitted.

Thank you all for your advice and offers of help especially Chris who offered to swap out the alternator for me.

Sometimes you (I) have to acknowledge it's better to pass the job to the garages especially if you have not the tools or more importantly the time to resolve.

At least it means I am to keep the lovely car for a good while longer to get my money's worth from the new alternator. Take care