Engine suddenly cuts off (2.0 CDTi)

[DKR]

Hi,


Today, all of the sudden, my engine shut down while driving just a few km/h. No sounds or strange observations prior to...


I managed to pull over, and I restared the engine - only to see it shut off again after a few seconds.
Started again - several times - higher RPM only helped for an extra few seconds; then shut off... Always after just a few seconds
(at just 1 time it didnt click/start but thats a loner...)



I didnt have time to investigate much, but going back the the car tomorrow



I've been searching the forum - would this error suggests that I have a look at the plenums, the diesel pump/control, or do anyone have another pointer I could follow when I get there?
I had no other errors, and tank is more than half full.



Rover 75 2.0 CDTi 2005


Thanks for any advice :}

[Yorkshire GOC]

If your engine starts tomorrow when cold i would look at the possibility of a failing camshaft sensor - only fails when the engine is hot - so if she starts from cold tomorrow i would look at replacing/checking the sensor wiring. :}

[DKR]

Thanks, Yorkshire for quick reply :)


Engine wasn't hot though - been driving 3-4 minutes max. after having left work :/

[Yorkshire GOC]

Afraid that maybe enough - lets see if she starts cold - that will be a good indicator - :shrug:

[DKR]

Allright, almost hope it's "just" that, lol - I'll let you know.
Thanks,

[trikey]

Try an injector leakback test.

[DKR]

Hi trikey,


Thanks - just found an instruction on that...
I'll see if I can find a piece of hose somewhere.
(we can't really do repairs in public streets, but since this is a test, I may try it :) )

[Mike Noc]

Thanks, Yorkshire for quick reply :)


Engine wasn't hot though - been driving 3-4 minutes max. after having left work :/

Forget the cam sensor if the engine is cutting out - once the ECM references the cam position when cranking it ignores the cam sensor until the next attempt to start. ;)

[DKR]

Thank all for your suggestions,


When I returned today, it started @first try - drove home without any issues...


SO:

@Mike:
Do you think it could *not* be the sensor or the wiring?
(I was just about to order a new sensor before I saw your post)


@Yorkshire:
Do you still (after Mike's input) think cam shaft sensor and/or wiring could be the culprit?



@trikey:
I saw a tut on this yesterday somewhere on the net - 4" tubes, not starting the engine (disconnect the cam shaft sensor connector, I think it was, to prevent the engine from starting), but just cranking it for about 10 secs.
However, I consulted an auto workshop today, they said that would not be sufficient - I should use bottles, *and* start the engine...
Do you have any thought on that?




Thanks again from a RoverLoving, but not AutoTech mind ;)

[Lee T]

Injectors can be tested by removing leakback pipe and T pieces from injectors, place pipe in a bottle, disconnect injector electrical plugs and crank the engine for 10 to 15 seconds, any injector with more than a slight dribble of fuel around the T piece hole will be out of spec. If all injectors are fine then you may have a leaking high pressure fuel pump. A member local to me had the same symptoms and a new seal kit solved the problem.

[Yorkshire GOC]

Thank all for your suggestions,


When I returned today, it started @first try - drove home without any issues...


SO:

@Mike:
Do you think it could *not* be the sensor or the wiring?
(I was just about to order a new sensor before I saw your post)


@Yorkshire:
Do you still (after Mike's input) think cam shaft sensor and/or wiring could be the culprit?



@trikey:
I saw a tut on this yesterday somewhere on the net - 4" tubes, not starting the engine (disconnect the cam shaft sensor connector, I think it was, to prevent the engine from starting), but just cranking it for about 10 secs.
However, I consulted an auto workshop today, they said that would not be sufficient - I should use bottles, *and* start the engine...
Do you have any thought on that?




Thanks again from a RoverLoving, but not AutoTech mind ;)

Hi - i defer to Mike's knowledge re the CAM sensor - so back to the fact she started cold - it could be injector leak back so you will need a leak back test kit to confirm or disregard this as the cause. But it could also be a failing crankshaft censor which if faulty stops sending data to the ECM and the engine is then switched off causing a stall - again if faulty they fail at temperature - if you stall/cut out again turn her over and see if the tachygraph needle flickers or not - if it stays still this to me points to a crank sensor problem as no RPM data is being produced for the ECM and the engine cuts out/fails to start.:shrug:

[DKR]

Allright then - evening is at hand...
I'll check on this during the weekend and let you know.


Thanks for all your valuable inputs :) :)

[COLVERT]

Allright then - evening is at hand...
I'll check on this during the weekend and let you know.


Thanks for all your valuable inputs :) :)

Leak back test.

Be careful of the plastic connectors around the injectors. They are VERY fragile and break easily.---:eek:

[Mike Noc]

Thank all for your suggestions,


When I returned today, it started @first try - drove home without any issues...


SO:

@Mike:
Do you think it could *not* be the sensor or the wiring?
(I was just about to order a new sensor before I saw your post)


A missing cam sensor signal can only prevent the engine from starting - it can't be the cause of the engine cutting out. If you unplug the cam sensor with the engine running it has no effect at all.

The camshafts are directly connected to the crankshaft via the two timing chains and, as it is a four stroke engine, geared to run at half engine speed.

The ECM knows the position of the crankshaft from the crank sensor, but doesn't know when you start the car whether the number one piston is coming up on the compression or exhaust stroke. That is the information the camshaft sensor supplies, and it only needs to do it once because the ECM then knows to fire the injectors every other crankshaft revolution. :}

.

[Comfortably Numb]

Fuel shut off solenoid?

[DKR]

Alright - still havent gotten the car back, but heres the verdict so far acc. to the mechanic (rdy for a strangie?) at the workshop:

Before anything else, the pretest showed:
- faulty starter motor
- odd signal/camshaft
- faulty fuel pre-something pump
- something not right with the glow plugs


...and, before he could tell anything more, he had to change the starter moter, because the existing wouldnt start.
So - after some 900 EUR starter motor change, the following test declared:
NO ERRORS


They took the car for a couple of rides in town with no errores what so ever...


I asked them to do the final 3rd testun.
Still waiting for the result.


Sorry to have kept you waiting for the info - Ill update with the final result when I get there.


Cheers,

[COLVERT]

WOW. Nine times out of ten it's the starter solenoid, not the starter motor.---Cheap and easy to change.


The glow plugs are not needed to start the engine unless it's really well below zero degrees.

The pump and camshaft signals were irrelevant as the engine is now running OK.


Sorry but you have seemed to paid a lot when more than likely it should have been a little except for maybe the starter motor complete. ( It would be very easy to see if the motor itself was dead rather than the solenoid in a less than 5 minutes inspection. )---:shrug:

[DKR]

My thoughts excactly!


Even though the salesman said some 15 months ago that those solenoids had just been changed, I actually bought a set on ebay not too long ago - just never got to change them...


I asked the mechanics if the change included a deposit, and apparently, I get the old starter back, so I might split that up and see whats going on in there ;)

[COLVERT]

Check inside the solenoid first. If you see the contacts burnt away then you have found the problem.

Fit the new set and you'll have a spare.---:D

[Mike Noc]

Alright - still havent gotten the car back, but heres the verdict so far acc. to the mechanic (rdy for a strangie?) at the workshop:

Before anything else, the pretest showed:
- faulty starter motor
- odd signal/camshaft
- faulty fuel pre-something pump
- something not right with the glow plugs


...and, before he could tell anything more, he had to change the starter moter, because the existing wouldnt start.
So - after some 900 EUR starter motor change, the following test declared:
NO ERRORS


They took the car for a couple of rides in town with no errores what so ever...


I asked them to do the final 3rd testun.
Still waiting for the result.


Sorry to have kept you waiting for the info - Ill update with the final result when I get there.


Cheers,


Sorry to sound negative but they haven't sorted the cutting out problem you originally posted about. Could be it has sorted itself (ECM got wet and has now dried out, contaminated fuel that has now gone through the system etc) or of course it might return.


To take your pretest results in order; as mentioned before, the camsensor and also the starter motor won't cause the engine to shut down once started.


The faulty pre-something pump sounds like an LP fuel pressure fault. Now this can cause the engine to shut down if it happens with it running, but it can also be caused by the ignition being turned on and then the engine not started before the LP pumps time out, which is what probably happened when the mechanic plugged his diagnostic kit in to check for faults.

The glow plug fault is a red herring - they pretty much all do that, and again even if the glowplug relay is faulty it won't cause the engine to stall once started.

[DKR]

Hi Mike,
No prob. - you're not being neg., I had the excact same thoughts.


- and the first ting I said to the mechanic was, that "nothing had been done to address the original problem"

- I confronted the mechanic with the fact, at the starter motor couldn't cause the cut out - he could only respond with words regarding tracking bug (g.-translated expression), and the fact that "I get no error readout now" - that's it.
(well, the motor cannot, unless the motor is really fcked up inside, allowing plus to run to minus - even then...?)


Ill have to wait another 1-2 days when they do the 3rd testrun, then crossing my fingers...


Thanks for your input,

[COLVERT]

I have really serious negative thoughts about your mechanics ability.

It's a pity you're not in the UK as there are lots of folk here that would quite quickly solve your problems.

He gives me the impression that he's one of these folks who changes everything, at your expense, until he stumbles across the fault.

[DKR]

So - finally got the car back yesterday...

At the workshop, I was shown a picture of the fuel injection backleak test, which showed an even backleak - nothing special (appx 20 (ml??) in each of the tubes (I had to really insist to get them to do this test).

Again: pretest error codes showed:
(directly translated)
1 – 1152 CoolerFan Control - interruption
2 – 4704 Pump, PrePressure - pressure too low
3 – 13573 GlowPlugs TimeControl "GlowPlugUnit" faulty
4 – 7717 synchronization, camshaft to crank - "UnFair Signal"


After this: StarterMotor is replaced
I was told the replacement appears to be without deposit
(So that I could get the old one back)



Then: No error codes
They drove 2x testdrives in town - nothing wrong.


I asked them to do the 3rd and final drivetest - showed nothing wrong - but now the error codes are back - all of them...
"Funny" thing here is - he could NOT read log or history, because, as he said "we only have a generic tester, your car/engine is too old"
??? This is a common BMW engine (2005)...
An old colleague of mine read out some logged errors using a cheap ebay-OBDII-thing and an iphone app... (last year)



The replaced startermotor - believe this or not - he fcking send it back without consulting me first!!
"It was a deposit after all", he said...
(why the freak didn't he ask me if I would just buy it?)


(and, before paying, he convinced me to be a "registered customer" - benefit for me? = he could send me the bill... - I registered, then he wanted payment right now... ofc, I had my registration cancelled...)


Some 937 EUR later, I was finally on my way home - no cut out/off during that half hour...


..


So, now, I will NEVER send my car to them for anything - not even for a polish...
This workshop was praised as "very skilled mechanics", "best place in town for diesel errors" etc.
- I feel like I've been a part in a monty python-sketch)



So, that leads me to a new question;
If I were to buy a OBDII scanner myself - would one of the following be suffiecient?
- For laptop (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-Scanner-1-4-0-Diagnostic-Tool-3-5-7-series-X3-X5-Z4-E38-E39-E46-E53-E83-E85/110860900609?hash=item19cfd31901:g:46cAAOSw2xRYPQe y)
- Handheld (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E39-E46-E39-E60-E90-E63-Diagnostic-Code-Tool-Reader-Scanner-Tool/153684256661?hash=item23c84ba795:g:1cEAAOSwiylXB46 d)

?


:::



Finally, I hear the engine more clearly now - both from the outside when the bonnet is closed, and from the inside of the cabin - shouldn't there be a sound insulation pad on the inner-side of the bonnet?
(apart from the felt-cover, that is)



Thanks all,

[Rogue]

I have one like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Torque-ELM-327-Bluetooth-BT-OBD2-OBDII-Car-Diagnostic-Scanner-Code-Reader/153546665201?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item23c0182cf1:g:lAYAAOSw6rhdF2SP&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qValRqO0YZQR3T% 2BRAKiemK98LkBLk7hEEXK5tPUEcW6Yq0CmlJNKOdTLA7qiQu1 PI8YqbAm8q2f1AA%2Bjh4fb9qyud9Ha2oOpSElDWMMrkpOzY%2 FOzGn0tsm0K0BsjxQ4Nje07Y%2BmWSi9Pl%2Fnwth8M%2BVlZS FsYkoxDeDYqsjDJbLWH%2B0sqxvxu6dCQZ%2FGflyBgEoxQ1OX CvdIT95G3nxsNNQpg%2F7%2FqULweehwXa5jrCu1DBkZ638bh5 YpLxai%2F0al5%2Fi1c%2Fk%2FEGkhLFJvsvidk6TMo7IoWYX8 cCWHEdmU7a7RkYS8Aveka7D3nhMiyRU9ZVyQ1QxLlgrkxxohI% 2BI8eFBY93GJxsORbaI6OJyPRbA6r%2BD2EkG29Ktlhg9JSp36 31g1f2hirqFJdTJUk7u0MHD39n%2BOMEV%2B5SNaoMM%2Fhc0G 7hzI16Ng3Ud8Gk0RGWKEBx2Yn7Cd%2FbEAF9j%2FiOyR69KWIb inD0cbqQQ8wgegXi4s3EuJv6n054EdWGm648RcyCyEYJ4WEKyv X59QloQwK8hIhBkKHPU7ScWbp5fbEkqC%2By9aARut9R4bwvwe 2Ob05k5qyvRg55Hby51s3fRNzeXtQq0TbW39ocXs1iIpKvYDGK 2RzvcQlEeMRiOnTfEghbHVdfkxYzsQRzVjzDqIZb%2BpV1cnBG 6VmM%2BDYevj5zdTDnspphNOccOD8V3jWLYScIkLK9JjP%2BJG PKbfxH9ZzOZDfmTEfztu2HmsgtZGsiY48Q%3D%3D&checksum=1535466652012ae7d81e502544a9b8b0920dbad83 86c


Download the torque app (or similar) and you will be able to read the fault codes and live data when the engine is running once you pair the reader with your phone.