Spring isolators - stupid question

[Blink]

This is one of my old spring isolators mounted on a new spring.

Stupid question :eek: - should the spring be at that angle? I think this is the top isolator but I'm not 100% sure. Part number is RKB100970.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635daef4ac28d46.jpg

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635daef4ac6c9d3.jpg




Below is the other isolator (the bottom one?) - part number RKB101290.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635daef4ac9e7f0.jpg

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID001551

I don't remember what angle the springs were at an angle before I took them off :duh: but I suspect the answer to my own stupid question is probably yes.

TIA. :}

[KWIL]

I think you will find that when in place and therefore under some compression, the angles will change anyway.

[Kev75]

Make sure the bottom one leaves the drain holes clear on the arm.

Kev

[Blink]

Thanks Ken & Kev.

I think you will find that when in place and therefore under some compression, the angles will change anyway.

I hope so - it looks pretty weird at that angle. :D


Make sure the bottom one leaves the drain holes clear on the arm.

Kev

I will (unless I forget). I haven't cleaned the bottom one up yet - when I have I'll plonk it in the arm just to see what's what. I've actually changed the rear springs before but I can't remember what I did and I didn't take any pics either. :duh:

[Blink]

Make sure the bottom one leaves the drain holes clear on the arm.

Kev

Kev - does this look right to you?

Here's the top of the upper arm with the isolator pushed into the locating socket and lined up with the drain holes.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db2ddc59798a.jpg

Now, without changing anything, here's the arm turned over to show the bottom side.

The two locking lugs on the isolator are at 10 past 6 - is this fully locked into position, or should the lugs be at 6 o'clock to be fully locked? (the drain holes won't line up if it's at 6 o'clock :shrug:).

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db2ddc54c797.jpg

[macafee2]

I have a feeling that if you revolve the spring 180 degrees it will sit differently.
I think the rubber is correctly positioned.

macafee2

[Blink]

I have a feeling that if you revolve the spring 180 degrees it will sit differently.
I think the rubber is correctly positioned.

macafee2

The spring isn't there though in these pics. Do you mean rotate the isolator 180 degrees so that the part number (RKB101290) is on the left instead of the right?

[Arctic]

Hi Simon.
The ones I have in the shed also lean a little, if you press on them a pull to one side they straighten up.

I note you have the Indian arms was it not those that Brian mentioned that the drain holes were in the wrong place ?

https://i.imgur.com/sm0f4fRl.jpg1

https://i.imgur.com/hrmso4tl.jpg2

https://i.imgur.com/bEWaL1dl.jpg3

Old photo of the spring in it's cup
https://i.imgur.com/ZAkyMNdl.jpg4

Changed because it snapped.
https://i.imgur.com/pz0SB6Al.jpg5

[macafee2]

The spring isn't there though in these pics. Do you mean rotate the isolator 180 degrees so that the part number (RKB101290) is on the left instead of the right?

yes, rotate the rubber and spring as the spring I think will only sit properly on the rubber in one location. See post 1, combine with my reply it will sit differently once on the upper arm and in place.

I only did this a couple of days ago and still I'm not 100% certain, that's not sarcasm, by the way

macafee2

[Blink]

Hi Simon.
The ones I have in the shed also lean a little, if you press on them a pull to one side they straighten up.

I note you have the Indian arms was it not those that Brian mentioned that the drain holes were in the wrong place ?



Thanks for the pics Steve.

Ok re the weird angle - I'll give that a try when I'm ready to put them on the car. At the moment I'm stuck on the fuel tank refit - post 13 here (https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=2770981#post2770981). I can't figure out what goes in those guides and clips, which I can't even see because the wood support blocks are slap bang in the way, plus it's raining :mad: :mad::mad:.

I don't know about the Indian arm question - I never read the thread containing Brian's thoughts on it. The arms came from Mat in March 2017. I'll compare their drain positions with the old factory arms once I've sorted out the fuel tank problem (assuming I do that is).


yes, rotate the rubber and spring as the spring I think will only sit properly on the rubber in one location. See post 1, combine with my reply it will sit differently once on the upper arm and in place.

......

Ok Ian - thanks for the info.

[T-Cut]

I don't know about the Indian arm question - I never read the thread containing Brian's thoughts on it.


Here's the thread: https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=282316


TC

[Blink]

Here's the thread: https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=282316


TC

Thanks TC. I've just read through it** and my arms from Mat seem to be the same as the ones in the current eBay ad by ECP (see link in post 14 (https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=282316&page=2)) - i.e. the ARB mount is not in the centre of the oval hole.

This is one of my new ones (from Mat) after blasting.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db41e097dcc6.jpg

I haven't taken a pic of my old factory arm yet but Post 18 (https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=282316&page=2) by Alan (clf) has a pic of one of his old arms with the ARB mount in the centre of the oval hole.

Hmm.

There doesn't seem to be any choice but to fit my new ones - all new ones seem to be the same now. I can't refurb the old ones because I cut one of them in two after failing to separate it from the subframe (the bolt wouldn't come out due to that idiotic captive nut cage contraption).

** I noted the key posts in Brian's thread (https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=282316) as: 9, 14, 18, 19, 21, 23 (pic), 28, 31. Plus Mat's 43, 46, 48.

[Blink]

PS. My new ones have had primer, top coat and Dynax S50 (inside) put on since the pic above.

[Blink]

Here are my old ones next to the new ones.


First pair (not sure which side of car they are). The old arm's drain holes are further away from the wall of the cup. And the ARB mount is nearer the centre of the oval hole.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db45042b24da.jpg


Second pair. Ditto re the drain holes and ARB mount.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db450431835b.jpg


Second pair with isolators locked in as far as they'll turn. Old arm's isolator is sitting flat on the floor of the cup. On the new arm it's not.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db450435e3b3.jpg


Second pair flipped over without moving isolator positions

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db4505eb031a.jpg


Second pair enlargement showing position of locking lugs on isolators. The old arm's lugs still aren't at 6 o'clock but they're a bit closer than on the new arm.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db4505f19cd8.jpg


NB. These pics are taken with a wide angle lens so there's bound to be optical some distortion. Also, I can't get the camera directly above the centre line without falling over - so the there's some slightly iffy perspective involved.

[Arctic]

Hi Simon.
Thank you for taking the time to photo the differences in the original arms & the Indian one you purchased from DMGRS (Matt) you may have already read that (Matt & Scott) of DMGRS are waiting n a supply of new arms that are reported to be the same as the original one, or at least a copy of the Chinese arms which seemed to match our original arms, maybe they might exchanged them for you.

I know this could well be no good to you as you have refurbished the ones you have and would most likely not want to be waiting until 2020 when they are supposed to land here.

[Blink]

Hi Simon.
Thank you for taking the time to photo the differences in the original arms & the Indian one you purchased from DMGRS (Matt) you may have already read that (Matt & Scott) of DMGRS are waiting n a supply of new arms that are reported to be the same as the original one, or at least a copy of the Chinese arms which seemed to match our original arms, maybe they might exchanged them for you.

I know this could well be no good to you as you have refurbished the ones you have and would most likely not want to be waiting until 2020 when they are supposed to land here.

Hi Steve - I didn't know Mat & Scott were waiting for a supply of new arms that match the MGR originals. Have you got a link to a page where they say that?

An exchange would certainly pose a big dilemma for me because:

1. The car will have to stay up on blocks until sometime in 2020 with no subframe or anything else on the rear end.

2. A mountain of work has gone into my new Indian pair- blasting, priming inside and out, top coating inside and out, waxing inside, then several more coats of chassis black on the outside. All of this takes ages - especially the inside coats, where the only way to do it is tape up all of the leak points, then pour the paint (and later spray the wax) in though one central hole. It's extremely messy (an understatement) and you have to wait for each coat to go off before applying the next one. The final outside coats then need to harden for quite a long time before they'll be tough enough to take the battering caused by fitting the isolators & springs.

Having said all that I can't see how my isolators and springs are going to fit my Indian pair properly anyway. Either I put the isolator on the arm first, then try and get the spring into it while keeping it in the locked position. Or, I put the isolator on the spring first, then try and force them both into the arm whilst rotating into the locked isolator position. Both of these methods sound impossible to me.

NB. The isolators must be locked into the arms, otherwise there's a chance the complete spring & isolator unit could bounce out of the hole in the arm and land off centre, causing quite a lot of damage.

So I don't know what to do now :shrug:. If I'd known about all this earlier I'd never have cut the old arm to get it off the old subframe. :( :banghead:

[Blink]

PS. The only other conceivable option (I think Brian mentioned it) is to cut the rim off the isolators so they'll sit flat on the floor of the Indian arm cups. Actually doing this however will be much harder than it sounds. They're made from extremely tough rubber and the cut line is circular.

The line would be through an arc roughly where the bottom edge of the part number is here (RKB101290).

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db56882ae0d9.jpg

These things are NLA so there'd only be one chance to get it right.

[Arctic]

Hi Steve - I didn't know Mat & Scott were waiting for a supply of new arms that match the MGR originals. Have you got a link to a page where they say that?

An exchange would certainly pose a big dilemma for me because:

1. The car will have to stay up on blocks until sometime in 2020 with no subframe or anything else on the rear end.

2. A mountain of work has gone into my new Indian pair- blasting, priming inside and out, top coating inside and out, waxing inside, then several more coats of chassis black on the outside. All of this takes ages - especially the inside coats, where the only way to do it is tape up all of the leak points, then pour the paint (and later spray the wax) in though one central hole. It's extremely messy (an understatement) and you have to wait for each coat to go off before applying the next one. The final outside coats then need to harden for quite a long time before they'll be tough enough to take the battering caused by fitting the isolators & springs.

Having said all that I can't see how my isolators and springs are going to fit my Indian pair properly anyway. Either I put the isolator on the arm first, then try and get the spring into it while keeping it in the locked position. Or, I put the isolator on the spring first, then try and force them both into the arm whilst rotating into the locked isolator position. Both of these methods sound impossible to me.

NB. The isolators must be locked into the arms, otherwise there's a chance the complete spring & isolator unit could bounce out of the hole in the arm and land off centre, causing quite a lot of damage.

So I don't know what to do now :shrug:. If I'd known about all this earlier I'd never have cut the old arm to get it off the old subframe. :( :banghead:


Hi Simon
Here is the link for the new arms that DMGRS have ordered.

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=299992

Regarding the fitting of the springs & isolators, would it not be better to fit the rear subframe along with the arms then press foot on the arm insert the spring with isolator twist & turn in to lock position.

[marinabrian]

Cut 5mm from the diameter of the lower isolator with a pair of sharp tin snips, then pare off any raggy ends with some coarse production paper.

Job done, now fit the isolators to the arm without the spring fitted, then when you're ready to fit the springs once everything is back on the car, then simply push the spring onto the isolator.

I fitted the rubbers with a good dollop of Renolit Red rubber grease smeared liberally onto the spring cup, and lined up the holes in the arm with the cutout in the isolators.

This apart from providing some lubrication to ease assembly, also stops water creeping between the pad and spring cup.


The ARB drop link bracket, and spring cup centres are in the same position relative to the outer and inner fastenings of the originals, it's just Bernie and Leepu didn't stamp the pressings in the right place.....the oval hole and spring cup are 10mm further outboard than they should be :getmecoat:

Brian :D

[Blink]

Hi Simon
Here is the link for the new arms that DMGRS have ordered.

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=299992

Regarding the fitting of the springs & isolators, would it not be better to fit the rear subframe along with the arms then press foot on the arm insert the spring with isolator twist & turn in to lock position.

Steve - thanks for the link. I hadn't seen that thread before - I've been too bogged down with the refurb. Anyway, I've emailed Mat about the new ones from the OE supplier to SAIC.

I don't think pressing a foot on the installed arm then trying to insert the spring & isolator together will work because it takes too much downward force to get the isolator in. I can only just do it out of the car by (literally) lying on the top isolator and turning the whole spring/lower isolator unit to get it into the lock position. Even then the gap under the rim of the isolator is so big that the spring rocks back an forth. on it. I'll try and get a pic to illustrate it.

[Blink]

Cut 5mm from the diameter of the lower isolator with a pair of sharp tin snips, then pare off any raggy ends with some coarse production paper.

Brian :D

Brian - when you say cut 5mm off with a pair of tin snips, do you mean nibble bits off? My tin snips will never cut through that stuff in one go and they're razor sharp & brand new (Stanley FatMax).

[Blink]

...... I'll try and get a pic to illustrate it.

This is the best I can do. 1st pic is just to show the layout, 2nd pic shows the gap between isolator and arm. I can't get a steel rule in to measure it (spring is in the way) but it's a good 6-7mm - enough to be able to slide the arm of a Bic biro top in with the fat side vertical.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db6e6f3335a5.jpg

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db6e6f2c039c.jpg

The white marks on the hole btw are the edge of the Dynax S50, which has been plastered all over the inside of the arm.

[Blink]

For comparison, here's the spring & isolator in one of the old arms.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db6ea0ba8307.jpg

[Blink]

Slightly better angle.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db6eb50909b5.jpg

[marinabrian]

Brian - when you say cut 5mm off with a pair of tin snips, do you mean nibble bits off? My tin snips will never cut through that stuff in one go and they're razor sharp & brand new (Stanley FatMax).

Nope Simon, I cut along a line I scribed onto the rubber using a pair of old dividers, I didn't nibble, and the snips I used were of the aero type.

looking at your picture, why not use a rasp to pare a radius onto the rubber to allow it to sit into the cup?

There are many ways to tackle this job, not every one suitable for the tools you have to hand.

Brian :D

[Blink]

Thanks Brian. I've sent a PM.

[Comfortably Numb]

Doesn't the spring pressure (once installed) keep the rubber isolators flat? On another thread, Brian recommends loosening the subframe mounting bolts on the opposite side of the car, and undoing them completely on the side you are fitting to increase the distance between the arm's cup and the wheelarch cup. It also allows the arb to drop with the subframe. It worked for me. One last thing, as said, lube both spring seats so the spring can be turned more easily. You can temporarily lock the isolators in their correct positions by putting bolts through the drain holes during assembly.

[marinabrian]

Doesn't the spring pressure (once installed) keep the rubber isolators flat? On another thread, Brian recommends loosening the subframe mounting bolts on the opposite side of the car, and undoing them completely on the side you are fitting to increase the distance between the arm's cup and the wheelarch cup. It also allows the arb to drop with the subframe. It worked for me. One last thing, as said, lube both spring seats so the spring can be turned more easily. You can temporarily lock the isolators in their correct positions by putting bolts through the drain holes during assembly.

No Andrew, the spring cup is in the wrong position, moved 10mm towards the outboard side, so the isolator must be trimmed otherwise it is almost impossible to correctly engage the locking bayonet on te base of the isolator.

I spoke to XPart yesterday, the new suppliers arms are being successfully trialled as we speak, and stock from the new supplier is anticipated to hit our shores in January.

They also had checked and rejected the Chinese arms due to various QA issues.

I'm holding fire on replacing the subframe and arms on my wife's car until there is a definitive line of supply established, and I've seen them with my own eyes.

Brian :D

[macafee2]

Slightly better angle.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db6eb50909b5.jpg

looking at this picture rust is starting to take hold and the paint lifting around the drain hole.
I would deal with this now.

macafee2

[marinabrian]

looking at this picture rust is starting to take hold and the paint lifting around the drain hole.
I would deal with this now.

macafee2

That is the old arm Ian ;)

Brian :D

[Blink]

Doesn't the spring pressure (once installed) keep the rubber isolators flat? .....

No Andrew, the spring cup is in the wrong position, moved 10mm towards the outboard side, so the isolator must be trimmed otherwise it is almost impossible to correctly engage the locking bayonet on the base of the isolator. ......

I think the isolator's locking lugs should be in the 6 o'clock position to work properly. On the Indian arms (shown here) they've gone too far past 6 o'clock.

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635db56882ae0d9.jpg

https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/426635dbc0f583e8d3.jpg

If I turn the isolator so that they are at 6 o'clock, then the drain holes don't line up.

The other point is - because the drain holes on the Indian arms have been moved 10mm closer to the outboard side, then the bottom centre of the spring has also been moved 10mm closer to the outboard side. So the spring is not sitting at the same angle on the Indian arms as it was on the factory arms - it's being moved further off the vertical. This might or might not be important - I don't know. :shrug: