KV6 Oil pickup O-Ring ?

[Mgaz]

My ZT190 always sounds noisy when first started from cold. Its an 02 plate and I've seen from reading threads on here that I might need a new oil pick up O-ring in the sump.

ITEM: O Ring - LYX000210L https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LYX000210L

I don't know for certain if this will cure the problem but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Is it easy enough to remove the sump and replace the O-ring?

Also, it looks as though there isn't a sump gasket on the KV6, rather some sealant instead? .

Looking at rimmers prices, that seems excessively expensive :eek: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LVV005188

Is there an inexpensive alternative?

[SD1too]

My ZT190 always sounds noisy when first started from cold.
What sort of noise Gareth?

Simon

[Mgaz]

What sort of noise Gareth?

Simon

A tapping/knocking sound that disappears after a couple of minutes.

Sounds like its coming from the top of the engine I think. :shrug:

[SD1too]

A tapping/knocking sound that disappears after a couple of minutes.
From my own experience I'd say that's one of the following:

Cut(s) in the rubber of the ancillary drive belt.
Worn ancillary belt tensioner and/or idler pulley.
Worn timing belt tensioner pulley and/or idler pulley.


What is the reasoning which you've read which suggests that this could be caused by an 'O' ring on the oil strainer pick-up pipe? :shrug:

Simon

[vitesse]

My ZT190 always sounds noisy when first started from cold. Its an 02 plate and I've seen from reading threads on here that I might need a new oil pick up O-ring in the sump.

ITEM: O Ring - LYX000210L https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LYX000210L

I don't know for certain if this will cure the problem but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Is it easy enough to remove the sump and replace the O-ring?

Also, it looks as though there isn't a sump gasket on the KV6, rather some sealant instead? .

Looking at rimmers prices, that seems excessively expensive :eek: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LVV005188

Is there an inexpensive alternative?

My 04 is also noisy on start-up, almost sounds like a diesel, but disappears as it warms up. All new belts & whistles last year so not related. Going to do an oil change soon and hope it improves.

According to T-cut my 04 falls outside the range of the O ring Technical Bulletin
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=64237

Regards

[SD1too]

All new belts & whistles last year so not related.
That depends Mike on whether "whistles" includes tensioners and idler pulleys. ;) Were they definitely renewed?
According to T-cut my 04 falls outside the range of the O ring Technical Bulletin
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=64237
Unfortunately that thread is inconclusive.

Simon

[vitesse]

That depends Mike on whether "whistles" includes tensioners and idler pulleys. ;) Were they definitely renewed?

Unfortunately that thread is inconclusive.

Simon

Yes, all new, I've got the invoice somewhere from the former owner, and even spoken to the mechanic who did the job at a cost of approx. £1600 !

Inconclusive perhaps but it answers the OP's question about the O ring.

Regards

[Lovel]

My ZT190 always sounds noisy when first started from cold. Its an 02 plate and I've seen from reading threads on here that I might need a new oil pick up O-ring in the sump.

ITEM: O Ring - LYX000210L https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LYX000210L

I don't know for certain if this will cure the problem but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Is it easy enough to remove the sump and replace the O-ring?

Also, it looks as though there isn't a sump gasket on the KV6, rather some sealant instead? .

Looking at rimmers prices, that seems excessively expensive :eek: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LVV005188

Is there an inexpensive alternative?

Here is my experience on that o-ring. My Son had been experiencing some top end noise from his zs180 and off course he had been reading about the alleged o-ring issue, I thought it highly unlikely that this was the case, but he eventually persuaded me to remove the sump which is no mean feat if you are trying to avoid disturbing the exhaust manifold. Spent quite a few hours at it for nothing as the o-ring was indeed intact and had plenty squeeze and suppleness on it to be refitted, however what we did find in the sump was tiny fine metallic fragments which were non magnetic I thought perhaps were main bearing material.

Have fun removing the sump, especially the set screw nearest the front which needs to be cut in place with a modified hacksaw blade and the sump hanging half down. Fit a shorter set screw in its place as there is plenty depth of thread in the sump.

Later we fitted new tappets but this didn’t cure the rattle. (Btw it wasnt the manifold which was already eliminated). Eventually I pulled the engine and stripped (notice the I as son has a habit of sneaking off and doing something else and leaving to dad) it down to find the timing end main bearing had almost lost all of its white metal backing. This was quite scary to see as he has a heavy right foot and would have been only a matter of time before a conrod exited the crankcase or such.

So on one hand I think you are wasting time removing the sump as the o-ring will be intact, however on the other at least we discovered the contents of the sump which told us that the bearing were beginning to break up.

[Teflon]

A tapping/knocking sound that disappears after a couple of minutes.

Sounds like its coming from the top of the engine I think. :shrug:

I have a similar issue which has so far evaded diagnosis. Taps when the engine is stone cold, but disappears after 2 minutes max (sometimes less). Engine then sounds sweet as a nut.

A number of folk who know these engines inside out say it's not tappets and sounds more like mains (:eek:), however they are puzzled by the way the sound disappears so completely.

I had a full belt change (including idlers & tensioners) to rule that out and also had the sump dropped and a new oil pickup pipe (with "o"ring) fitted, all with no improvement. Oil pressure (both cold and hot) is spot on. I also sent oil samples off for analysis and they came back with a clean bill of health, showing no signs of engine wear at all. All very odd.

Needless to say, I'll be interested to hear if you find a resolution to your noise.

Cliff

Edit:

I meant to add, the oil pickup pipe was considered due to a bulletin issued by MG Rover which read as follows:

"TB0037 Issue 2
19.10.2001
ENGINE
Title:
TAPPET NOISE – AIR LEAK AT OIL PICK-UP ‘O’ RING
Affected range:
All vehicle with KV6 engines up to the following engine numbers:
20K摯瑬敳獩 ∗∗∗∗168295 - 2.0 engine
25K摯瑬敳獩 ∗∗∗∗168506 - 2.5 engine
Description:
Tappet noise on cold start or when engine idling.
This condition is due to air entering the tappet oil chambers. The source of air entry is likely to be at the ‘O’
ring seal situated between the oil pick-up strainer to bearing carrier connection.
This condition has been rectified from the engine change point quoted."

(Thanks to RogerHeinz57 for the bulletin info)

[vitesse]

Needless to say, I'll be interested to hear if you find a resolution to your noise.

Cliff

Include me in that statement, probably others too.

Regards

[roverbarmy]

I have a rattle on start up which is the cat (quietens down once it warms).;)

[Bolin]

Here is my experience on that o-ring. My Son had been experiencing some top end noise from his zs180 and off course he had been reading about the alleged o-ring issue, I thought it highly unlikely that this was the case, but he eventually persuaded me to remove the sump which is no mean feat if you are trying to avoid disturbing the exhaust manifold. Spent quite a few hours at it for nothing as the o-ring was indeed intact and had plenty squeeze and suppleness on it to be refitted, however what we did find in the sump was tiny fine metallic fragments which were non magnetic I thought perhaps were main bearing material.

Have fun removing the sump, especially the set screw nearest the front which needs to be cut in place with a modified hacksaw blade and the sump hanging half down. Fit a shorter set screw in its place as there is plenty depth of thread in the sump.

Later we fitted new tappets but this didn’t cure the rattle. (Btw it wasnt the manifold which was already eliminated). Eventually I pulled the engine and stripped (notice the I as son has a habit of sneaking off and doing something else and leaving to dad) it down to find the timing end main bearing had almost lost all of its white metal backing. This was quite scary to see as he has a heavy right foot and would have been only a matter of time before a conrod exited the crankcase or such.

So on one hand I think you are wasting time removing the sump as the o-ring will be intact, however on the other at least we discovered the contents of the sump which told us that the bearing were beginning to break up.

Thank you for that post Lovel, that is helpful to me too.

My car sounded like a diesel, so I did the belts (which were due), replaced oil pump (precaution, I have read of some cases of them under-performing with age) and then found that there was wear on the tappets and camshafts, so these were replaced too.

I also replaced this oil seal, and I also found some metallic pieces in the strainer (can't remember if I tested with a magnet).

Tappet noise remained after the work, but much much reduced, only really at start-up now. Slight rumbling/knocking noise present beforehand remained.

However, I did find sparkly bits in the oil after the work, and looking at the old oil, there were sparkly bits in that too.

Phil-T4 advised me that it is not that uncommon for bottom end bearings to fail. Reading on forums finds some mentions of this, with the culprit likely being not priming the oil filter after an oil change.

So does look like I need a bottom end rebuild. Which is beyond my capabilities at the moment so will cost £££.

I might get the oil tested first though, to be sure.

[Lovel]

Thank you for that post Lovel, that is helpful to me too.

My car sounded like a diesel, so I did the belts (which were due), replaced oil pump (precaution, I have read of some cases of them under-performing with age) and then found that there was wear on the tappets and camshafts, so these were replaced too.

I also replaced this oil seal, and I also found some metallic pieces in the strainer (can't remember if I tested with a magnet).

Tappet noise remained after the work, but much much reduced, only really at start-up now. Slight rumbling/knocking noise present beforehand remained.

However, I did find sparkly bits in the oil after the work, and looking at the old oil, there were sparkly bits in that too.

Phil-T4 advised me that it is not that uncommon for bottom end bearings to fail. Reading on forums finds some mentions of this, with the culprit likely being not priming the oil filter after an oil change.

So does look like I need a bottom end rebuild. Which is beyond my capabilities at the moment so will cost £££.

I might get the oil tested first though, to be sure.

Btw I did test the oil pressure with the engine running and it was good even with the poor bearings. Also camshaft bearings in head were fairly scored up, proving that this had been a neglected engine in the past.
.
https://preview.ibb.co/fKUNfV/26606689-58-D3-4500-9-C8-B-3-C3-F3-A098-ABE.jpg (https://ibb.co/enuoLV)

[Bolin]

Interesting, I am yet to test the oil pressure but I think Phil said that the switch is before the bearings in the lubrication circuit so should test OK at the switch and loose pressure afterwards.

I think my camshaft bearings (the cuts in the head and cam carrier, no separate bearing surfaces) were OK, some wear but not excessive.

Those bearings don't look too good!

[Mgaz]

Well this thread got doom and gloomy lol :(

If it is as bad as all that, not sure if its worth it or not.

How much to fix those bearings?

I know every time I've done oil changes on cars I ALWAYS fill the filter with oil before fitting, but no idea on any previous owners/garages etc.

It is due a cambelt next year I think?

Its not done many miles since last time but its coming up to 6 years I think.

[vitesse]

Well this thread got doom and gloomy lol :(

If it is as bad as all that, not sure if its worth it or not.

How much to fix those bearings?

I know every time I've done oil changes on cars I ALWAYS fill the filter with oil before fitting, but no idea on any previous owners/garages etc.

It is due a cambelt next year I think?

Its not done many miles since last time but its coming up to 6 years I think.

Echo your gloomy thoughts, but I've yet to do an oil change on my "diesel" V6 so will have an extra good look, but mine is noticeably quieter after just 50 yards up the road and it happens only when the engine is cold.

Regards

[SD1too]

Well this thread got doom and gloomy lol :(
If it is as bad as all that, not sure if its worth it or not.
I have noticed the following principle, not only in this club, but in others too.

When faced with a choice of diagnoses ranging from reasonably straightforward to virtually stripping and rebuilding the engine, members always disregard the former and latch onto the latter? :shrug:

Simon

[kaiser]

My engine sounded like a Diesel.
Was the VIS. Now dead quiet!

[Mgaz]

My engine sounded like a Diesel.
Was the VIS. Now dead quiet!

Have already replaced the manifold plus new/rebuilt VIS motors.

[Teflon]

Have already replaced the manifold plus new/rebuilt VIS motors.

Did you ever find the source of your noise?

Cliff

[Mike Noc]

However, I did find sparkly bits in the oil after the work, and looking at the old oil, there were sparkly bits in that too.

Phil-T4 advised me that it is not that uncommon for bottom end bearings to fail. Reading on forums finds some mentions of this, with the culprit likely being not priming the oil filter after an oil change.

So does look like I need a bottom end rebuild. Which is beyond my capabilities at the moment so will cost £££.

I might get the oil tested first though, to be sure.


Sounds like your sparkly oil mystery has been solved Colin. :}

[vitesse]

Stated earlier in the thread that mine sounds like a diesel on start up too but about two weeks ago changed the oil (no sparkly bits:icon_lol:) and did a couple of long runs. Noticeably quieter, went for fully synthetic 5 - 40 (gets cold here).

Regards

[Rich in Vancouver]

Interesting thread!
I don't have the issue but for future reference does anyone have any idea how the point where the O-ring issue was corrected at the factory correlates to ZT VIN numbers?
I know that there probably isn't an accurate change point but a rough idea would be helpful in knowing if the O-ring issue is likely.
For example, the VIN on my 2002 ZT190 is 242274. I don't have the engine number.
The change over was at engine number 168506. Date?

Edit:
Hang on.....I'm paying attention now! The bulletin was issued in October 2001. So that answers my question.
I left my post in place in case anyone else missed the details.
My car was built on 17 Jan. 2002 so hopefully the affected engines were out of the system by then.

Thanks to Teflon for posting the bulletin!

[Teflon]

My ZT190 always sounds noisy when first started from cold. Its an 02 plate and I've seen from reading threads on here that I might need a new oil pick up O-ring in the sump.

I don't know for certain if this will cure the problem but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Is it easy enough to remove the sump and replace the O-ring?

Also, it looks as though there isn't a sump gasket on the KV6, rather some sealant instead? .

Looking at rimmers prices, that seems excessively expensive :eek: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-LVV005188

Is there an inexpensive alternative?

Did you ever get this resolved?

My own knocking noise was eventually diagnosed as piston slap. I was advised that it was more irritating than dangerous and could be safely left until it reached the point where it didn't stop after warm up (which was thought to many 10s of thousands of miles away, if it ever happened at all).

I bit the bullet though, and had it repaired anyway. Piston no. 1 was the culprit and my engine is now silent once more (well, as silent as any V6 is anyway).

Cliff