7 weeks and still no start

[Patjamison]

Car has always worked well for the past 4 years, 7 weeks ago it just would'nt start, RAC called said it was a fuel issue. Taken to local garage, Pre fuel indicated on computer test. they checked the pumps all working, its the new version 350 pump in the rear seat, Sure start starts the car for as long as its there then stops. Injectors removed for bench testing they are OK, ECU removed and sent to UK specialist, 4 faults found but none relating to No start. Refitted still no start. Camsensor replaced - no effect. Additional inline pressure pump fitted to boast fuel delivery but no difference. Rev counter moves with turn over so we believe the Crankshaft sensor is fine.
Garage is now at a loss, does anyone know the voltages at the injectors or pre and post pressures of the high pressure pump incase we can rig something up, we seem to be changing items for the sake of it now and its getting expensive. Any help greatly appreciated.

PaT

[HarryM1BYT]

Just a wild guess on this and ready to be shot down - As it doesn't seem to be getting any fuel injected, I wonder if it might be the fuel pressure sensor? Not sure if the ECU will revert to default values to allow the engine to limp, if that were to be simply unplugged.

BTW - You seem to have your phone number as your signature, not really a good idea.

[Patjamison]

Just a wild guess on this and ready to be shot down - As it doesn't seem to be getting any fuel injected, I wonder if it might be the fuel pressure sensor? Not sure if the ECU will revert to default values to allow the engine to limp, if that were to be simply unplugged.

BTW - You seem to have your phone number as your signature, not really a good idea.
Harry

Yea sorry if thats the valve on the end of the High pressure pump they swopped it over but made no difference.
I removed the mobile number thanks

[WeeMan]

Have you tried the inertia switch?. Located on the A-pillar beside fuse box, rubber button on top to press and reset, also check wires tight going in.

[Lovel]

Harry

Yea sorry if thats the valve on the end of the High pressure pump they swopped it over but made no difference.
I removed the mobile number thanks


Worth a stab, pardon the pun. Drift this inlet line and observe for movement of the check valve in the HP pump.
There is a very light weight spring fitted underneath the check valve and piston can stick, and when it does your car will never start because the ECU is not getting a signal from the pressure sensor on the fuel rail.

[Patjamison]

tHANKS I WILL TRY THAT AND GET BACK, JUST TESTED THE LINE PRESSURE TO THE HIGH PRESSURE PUMP AND ITS ONE AND A HALF BAR AS IT SHOULD BE. nOT THE FUEL PUMPS THEN.

[topman]

I think Lovel is on the best track, try and find out what the inputs are into the ecu for a start. Then check that it is receiving the required signals to it.

[chrissyboy]

it sounds as if it is immobilised.. haveyou tried opning drivers window ock car with fob ,open car and try then ... faiking that have you checked fuses and relating to fuel pumps and the fuel pump relay ...

[wuzerk]

If it helps:
FUEL RAIL PRESSURE SENSOR READINGS....WITH IT PLUGGED IN.
WHITE/YELLOW........5.0V
BLUE/BLACK..............1.3V (at tickover)
BROWN/GREEN...........0.0V

Another quick voltage check: On the FUEL FILTER the Yellow/Blue wire should read around 4V at all times.
EDIT: Rover Rons tip is that if the car starts and runs as long as easy start is present it may suggest Camshaft sensor
but, once started that sensor is not used so it should keep running. That leaves the Crankshaft Sensor?

Did you perform any jobs on the car before it failed to start?

[chrissyboy]

i thought the cam sensor was in constant use as follows

camshaft position sensor is used to help the PCM (powertrain control module) determine the correct firing order. The engine will not run without this sensor's input. The camshaft position sensor is a Hall effect sensor. The Hall effect type of cam sensor uses notches or shutter blades on the cam gear or balancer to disrupt a magnetic field in the Hall effect sensor window. This causes the sensor to switch on and off, producing a digital signal or Hall-effect signal to the PCM that it uses to determine when #1 cylinder comes up on top-dead center (TDC). This sensor information is used to phase the sequential firing of the fuel injectors during normal SFI operation.

[HarryM1BYT]

Harry

Yea sorry if thats the valve on the end of the High pressure pump they swopped it over but made no difference.
I removed the mobile number thanks

No, its not a valve - its a flat 3 - 4 pin plug which fits into into a fixed socket, top near side of the engine. I was thinking that if this sensor is misreporting the rail pressure, you may not get any fuel into the engine.

[wuzerk]

CHRISSYBOY: My understanding is that the Camshaft sensor is necessary for starting as it identifies the firing position but, once started is not used. Have I got it wrong?
I am referring to the diesels of course.

[Patjamison]

The car has behaved perfectly for 4 years, serviced twice a year every 10000 miles, last thing i did was fill it with fuel from ASDA but they assure me no-one else had reported any problems and my garage feels the fuel is ok.
I Thank you for your advice especially about the camshaft sensor, garage is closed now until the 4th January but i will pass this all on.

Merry Christmas

[Patjamison]

Thank you for all your help that information will really help.
Garage closed until the 4th January, well let you know then.

[Patjamison]

The garage changed the pressure sensor attached to the high pressure pump, It started again and again, Car put back together, got the car back yesterday and drove it for 38 miles stopping and starting without a hitch.
Got up this morning car would not start.
Here we go again.

[Lovel]

In your original post you mentioned changing over to the single pump set up. Would it possible to change back to the original set-up with the two pump set up? maybe secondhand even?

I would advise a session on T4 diagnostics as will see more data and fault specific fault codes if present. See screen shots taken from a 2004MY CDTI manual g/box of running real time two pump set up if you get it running might help you correlate.

I havent heard anyone mention about injector leak back test on this thread, has it been done?

Did you observe if the little check valve in the HP pump inlet was free and not sticking occasionally?

[bramblp]

The garage changed the pressure sensor attached to the high pressure pump, It started again and again, Car put back together, got the car back yesterday and drove it for 38 miles stopping and starting without a hitch.
Got up this morning car would not start.
Here we go again.
There have been reports of a micro filter that is housed inside the high pressure pump where the pressure sensor sits clogging up, no one has yet posted a way of removing and cleaning this item, but your garage could have un-knowingly cleaned some of the dirt when replacing the sensor which allowed the passage of fuel for a period before blocking again, just a thought to add to the many other thoughts

[Mike Noc]

Quote:
CHRISSYBOY: My understanding is that the Camshaft sensor is necessary for starting as it identifies the firing position but, once started is not used. Have I got it wrong?
I am referring to the diesels of course.

Wuzerk spot on. With the CDT engine the cam sensor is only used to synchronize the camshaft with the crankshaft. With a four stroke cycle the camshaft is turning at half the speed of the crankshaft so the ECU needs to determine as number 1 piston rises whether the cam shaft is not opening the valves so the engine is on its compression stroke, or if it is opening the exhaust valve and the engine is on its exhaust stroke. It only needs to do this once then it can count from the crankshaft sensor.

The ECU uses the crankshaft sensor to determine injection timing as it is more acccurate than using the camshaft sensor, which would vary the timing as the chain drives fluttered and also as the chains started to wear.

Mike

[Mike Noc]

Sorry forgot to mention the ECU capacitors breaking down have been known to cause bad starting.

Definitely worth plugging the car into a Testbook terminal and seeing in real time exactly what is going on.


Mike

[Patjamison]

Sorry forgot to mention the ECU capacitors breaking down have been known to cause bad starting.

Definitely worth plugging the car into a Testbook terminal and seeing in real time exactly what is going on.


Mike
Hi everyone, Replaced the High pressure pump electric switch at the end of the High pressure pump, car started, car kept going for 2 days without problem then on the 3rd day it would not start again. Took car to specialist Rover garage who put this great computer on, indicated low pre fuel pressure, pumps checked satis, camshaft sensor replaced, eventually found 2 damaged cables on the cable loom on the High pressure pump line, car started again and kept going for 5 weeks without incident then after driving the car to a local shop when i got back in one morning it failed to start. Back to the garage, this time we changed the High pressure pump, still no start. So fuel seems fine and computer indicates pressure is fine, all cables re-checked all seem fine, I have had the ECU, Injecters, cam shaft sensor, all tested, but problem persists, cannot seem to get hold of a cable loom for the facelifted 2004 model, if anyone has any idea's i am slowly loosing the will to live. So if anyone knows any breakers yards with a 2004/2005 facelift diesel please let me know, alternatively if you can give me any clues i would be most greatful.

[bramblp]

Your symptoms would seem to indicate an intermittent electrical connection, most likley to the High pressure pump switch. Each time you fiddle with the switch you are moving the wires and temporarily repairing the connection very similar to the ongoing problem we all have with the under seat air bag connections.

[FrenchMike]

Hi,

As you can't have a T4 permanently connected,you can try this:

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=69308

and observe closely the High pressure signal ...

Good luck

Mike

[Patjamison]

Thanks everyone for your advice, The specialist Rover dealer is still at a loss and now suggests we change the High Pressure Fuel pump to ECU harness, YSB 106850 goes without saying nobody has one, i will keep ypou all updated.

Regards Pat

[Patjamison]

Well the nightmare story continues, The car turns over with no start, Fuel pumps checked ok, Have changed the following camsensor, high pressure fuel pump sensor, High pressure fuel pump, Ecu checked by UK specialist and found ok, All 4 injectors bench tested and found ok, 2 wires on the Engine harness repaired, then the whole engine harness replaced. T4 computer tested several times comes up low fuel pressure, Car generally runs for several days after each component change then stops again, Only got the car back last week and it stoped on the way home, i banged the ECU and it started again and run for 2 days, this time when it stopped i took the panels off from the ECU cover and took the whole assembly out of its bulkhead support this released the pressure on the harness and low and behold the car started again, it seems to be fine for now, although i am happy that if i play around with the ECU and Harness i can get it going,
So do i replace the ECU or find a good electrician to manually check the wiring to the ecu - or both, Has cost me £1600 to date, i have loads of spares that didnt fix it so do i carry on or just cut my losses.

[bl52krz]

sounds like an electric fault to me. you say thatyou moved the ecu around and it started again. has the ecu ever been flooded? perhaps where the wires come from the ecu through the panel to the engine compartment ,they have rubbed through somewhere. will be interesting to see an end to your sorry saga.

[Patjamison]

As i have changed so much already, i decided to go ahead and change the ECU, ALARM and keep chip for a matched set, The car starts as advertised, the coil light goes out a lot quicker, so we will have to wait and see, only problem previously i had 2 keys for the car however the new matched set only had one key, not sure how easy it is to get another chip for my spare key, any ideas.

[Patjamison]

I spoke too soon, I got into the car today and it failed to start, Nothing else left to change and i am at a loss.

[Tatts]

Have you checked the fuse shown below? I remember a few years back someone having a similar problem, thats what the problem was.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b106/Barnsley_Tatts/CIMG0915.jpg

[Patjamison]

i thought the cam sensor was in constant use as follows

camshaft position sensor is used to help the PCM (powertrain control module) determine the correct firing order. The engine will not run without this sensor's input. The camshaft position sensor is a Hall effect sensor. The Hall effect type of cam sensor uses notches or shutter blades on the cam gear or balancer to disrupt a magnetic field in the Hall effect sensor window. This causes the sensor to switch on and off, producing a digital signal or Hall-effect signal to the PCM that it uses to determine when #1 cylinder comes up on top-dead center (TDC). This sensor information is used to phase the sequential firing of the fuel injectors during normal SFI operation.
I checked it and my car is the face lifted version and although it is similar, it appears fine, i hit the box and the car started, thanks for the tip, lets see how long it works,
Ps is your picture of 2 ac squadron?

[Tatts]

I checked it and my car is the face lifted version and although it is similar, it appears fine, i hit the box and the car started, thanks for the tip, lets see how long it works,
Ps is your picture of 2 ac squadron?

So a 'Technical Thump' sorted it??

No, it's 20 Sqn, RAF Bruggen, taken just before disbandment in 1984. I'm on the back row, as my No 1s didn't fit. Story of my life! :D

[Patjamison]

So a 'Technical Thump' sorted it??

No, it's 20 Sqn, RAF Bruggen, taken just before disbandment in 1984. I'm on the back row, as my No 1s didn't fit. Story of my life! :D

I was on 20 at Laarbruch, anyway i did check all the relays and fuses 3 were slightly unseated and i pushed them fully home as i said the car is working perfectly again, i would hate to think that i have spent over £2000 on a fuse that was incorrectly seated, having said that if its fixed now i would be very happy, thanks for steering me towards the front fuse box.

[lazercrane]

are the fuel pumps running when trying to start