cdt diesel starting problems

[bennyhill]

right where shall i start, i purchased a rover 75 cdt with 82000 mile on the clock a couple of months ago and noticed that every so often it was a pig to start when it did start it ran fine,but if i used it for a short journey, then tried to restart it, it took ages,finally it wouldnt start at all and i got the rac man out to it after carring out several tests, he could not get it it to fire up,then he squirted some easy start into the air intake and it roared into life, he suspected that the fuel pressure sensor may be at fault.I booked the car into my local garage who carried diagnostics on the engine and concluded that the glo-plug relay was at fault,they duly changed the part,the car started "ok" ,but i wasnt convinced,any way i went to visit my daughter in glasgow at xmas and when we set off for home on boxing day had the same problem,luckily had had purchased some easy start from halfords and hey presto car started with the first turn of the key,yesterday same thing again, i am tempted to go back to the garage,but they said if the glo plug relay didnt work then i may have to get a new ecu, noticed that when i bought the car and got it homethat the towing eye was in the glove compartment.....very ominous, please, i would be very grateful for any advice:bowdown:

[SD1too]

Hello John and :welcome:.

I'm not a diesel expert but I recall other members having a problem with the glow plug circuit. I'm sure one of them will be along shortly to help you.

As you've just bought the car, a full engine service might be worth considering.

Don't be persuaded to buy new ECUs at this stage.

Simon.

[bennyhill]

Hello John and :welcome:.

I'm not a diesel expert but I recall other members having a problem with the glow plug circuit. I'm sure one of them will be along shortly to help you.

As you've just bought the car, a full engine service might be worth considering.

Don't be persuaded to buy new ECUs at this stage.

Simon.
thanks for that, i have already had a service done when i got the car £180 !!, im not sure wether to take it back or to try some where else,does any body know of a decent diesel specialist in the hull area

[Raistlin]

I noticed that you say it wouldn't start after a short journey (ie engine warm).

The first thing I would think of is the cam sensor.

[simdel1]

Sounds like it could be a cam or crank sensor. It's a fault i've seen at work where the sensor isn't reading the teeth on the cam or crank shaft correctly which results in the ECU not knowing how fast the engine is rotating or even if it's running backwards! The result is that the ECU intermittently decides to switch off the fuel circuit as and when the sensor misses a few teeth. The easy start will help because it will allow the engine to accelerate quicker from the few injections that it's getting during cranking.


If it's running fine after it starts, I would be incredibly surprised if it's the ECU that's at fault. Take the car to another garage if they push for an ECU change without checking other things. A fault code scanner isn't a substitute for proper fault finding!

[wuzerk]

It will not be the fault of the glow plugs. These engines start perfectly well if in otherwise good condition without the glow plugs. The CAM SENSOR is used on start up and, if faulty is easy to replace(just in front of the oil filler cap). If it starts from cold but not when hot you can put the cam sensor in the freezer to cool it and then see if it starts. You would be extremely unlucky to need a new ECU which is about the last thing which should be considered. However, it could be suffering water damage if you have a blocked Plennum drain.
A search on here will give a great deal of advice on that subject.
Rover Rons site www.tuning-diesels.com (http://www.tuning-diesels.com) has a lot of info on such problems and is worth a study. I don't like the sound of that garage.

[trebor]

exactly same symptoms i had in my last diesel conny, was the cam sensor

[chrissyboy]

i agree with the others that is sounds like either the camshaft sensor or the krankshaft sensors ,as it does start i would go with it being the camshaft sensor,i would aso take it back to the garage as they have clearly not sorted the fault and charged you for something that wasnt the problem and of course in their diagnotics checks they should of hooked up to the sensors to look for any bad wave forms,

[bramblp]

Make sure you study the following page before accepting any diagnosis

http://tuning-diesels.com/75Zt/R75serv.htm

[jt002e2762]

Yes, agree totally, cam sensor.

[Mike Noc]

If the cam sensor checks out then do an injector leakback test - you may have a dodgy injector, although it would be rare for a relatively low mileage car.

Mike

[bse1966]

it could be an injector as that sounds the same as the problem 2diesel's had, check out this forum for details :smilie_re:

[stevehotshot]

i had problems with CDT difficult to start after short journeys and it was the in-tank fuel pump, as advised on this site. problem worse when low on fuel. i.e. less than 120 miles left according to computer. changed pump insert (£90ish) and fine now. (i am a relative newbie and wondered why this suggested solution hadn't come up yet, as it was one of the first things i'd picked up from using this site.) also did plenum drains as mine started cutting out after right turns, ...water splashing into ECU..
absolutely brill now...what a car!

[bennyhill]

i have just aquired a second hand sensor from the breakers yard will let you know how i get on

[Mike Noc]

i had problems with CDT difficult to start after short journeys and it was the in-tank fuel pump, as advised on this site. problem worse when low on fuel. i.e. less than 120 miles left according to computer. changed pump insert (£90ish) and fine now. (i am a relative newbie and wondered why this suggested solution hadn't come up yet, as it was one of the first things i'd picked up from using this site.) also did plenum drains as mine started cutting out after right turns, ...water splashing into ECU..
absolutely brill now...what a car!

Reason no-one has suggested it Steve is that the symptoms don't fit the intank pump failing. Normally this causes the engine to stop or refuse to start at all when the tank level drops to below a quarter full.

If your car was difficult to start and you replaced the intank pump and all is fine then if you have an under bonnet pump that may well be worn or non OEM because the cars with these fitted will run for months with a failed intank pump, as long as there is enough diesel, despite what alot of people will tell you.

If you don't have an under the bonnet low pressure pump then your intank pump was displaying a rare type of fault for this unit.

Mike

[Jules]

A leaky injector (or 2) is very common also with your symptoms
Do a leakback test .

[bennyhill]

A leaky injector (or 2) is very common also with your symptoms
Do a leakback test .
took it to my local garage who did a leakback test and said there were no problems,cheers

[Mike Noc]

took it to my local garage who did a leakback test and said there were no problems,cheers

You may have a high pressure pump problem or the fuel pressure sensor has failed and the ecu thinks you have a high pressure problem. Plug it in to a T4 if know of a garage that has one locally.

Mike

[bramblp]

took it to my local garage who did a leakback test and said there were no problems,cheers
A leakback test will not guarentee that the injectors are OK, there are other problems that can occur, my CDT was cutting under load, leakback was ok, had them repaired by Lynx diesels all ok now

[bennyhill]

Hi just realised it needs a torque socket (female) does anyone know what size i need

[Jules]

A leakback test will not guarentee that the injectors are OK, there are other problems that can occur, my CDT was cutting under load, leakback was ok, had them repaired by Lynx diesels all ok now

What did Alan actually do to cure it?

Hi just realised it needs a torque socket (female) does anyone know what size i need

Size varies depending on year like it does for stat & MAF bolts !
On a 51 Plate I'm replacing injectors on at the mo, the cam sensor bolt is Size E4. But could be E5 or E6 on later models:shrug:

[FrenchMike]

Hi,

If T4 not available ,you can try this:

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=69310

Mike

[bramblp]

What did Alan actually do to cure it?



Size varies depending on year like it does for stat & MAF bolts !
On a 51 Plate I'm replacing injectors on at the mo, the cam sensor bolt is Size E4. But could be E5 or E6 on later models:shrug:
Complete overhaul, new nozzles, inlet port and seals

[bennyhill]

just took it to my local garage ,who in turn has taken the injectors to be tested at a specialist tester...........new injectors required.....gulp

[Mike Noc]

just took it to my local garage ,who in turn has taken the injectors to be tested at a specialist tester...........new injectors required.....gulp

Sorry to hear that. Unlucky with such a low mileage. Could be that a previous owner had misfuelled the car as that could shorten the injector life.

Hope its fixed soon.

Mike

[hailoffame]

Hi, this post interested me as my scan tool , the latest version of sykes pickavant, shows glow plug positioner fault when I disconnect the cam sensor!!! with the cam sensor unplugged the car will not start, have nt tried easystart?
I only found this out when a customers car was intermittently not starting after a few miles journey!
cheers
Mike

[bramblp]

just took it to my local garage ,who in turn has taken the injectors to be tested at a specialist tester...........new injectors required.....gulp
Dont buy new injectors, send them to Alan at Lynx Diesels and for £420 you will have 4 perfectly balanced reconditioned injectors

[bennyhill]

just had a call from local garage and the mechanic says he has cracked open the fuel filter and it is full of black sludge and thinks someone may have been using bio deisel,he going to remove the fuel pump and inspect the tank,will let you know of any further updates

[bennyhill]

right, took car to garage and the said he had taken the injectors to be tested and they showed uneven pressure on all injectors and that they needed to be refurbished,he also stated the the high pressure fuel pump was u/s and needed to be replaced £££££££££,after 2 weeks he said the car would be ready to be picked up as he was nearly finished,after 10 mins he called back to say he could not get thecar to start when it was warmed up,but he knew what it was and should be ok the following morning,anyway i didn't hear anything from him so i rang him,only for him to say that he had a major problem starting the car again and after taking it for a test drive said it was running a bit lumpy and suspected that number 2 injector may be faulty and has returned it to the injection specialist to be looked at again,what worries me is that the symptoms he has experienced was the very same problem that i booked it in for in thefirst place,he said that the cause was someone possibly using cheap bio diesel which has damaged the pump and injectors,but how do i know this is true,also i have no idea what this is going to cost as he said he had not worked out a price yet,should i have to pay for expensive parts if has diagnosed the problem incorrectly ?......any advice would be welcome:shrug:

[Tractor Boy]

Hi mate, it sounds to me like your mechanic has not got a clue. I would get a second oppinion before you pay him anything

[bramblp]

If Bio has been used and it is the cause of the damage then is it not possible that there is still sludge in the system and that any repairs will only be temporary as more sludge will find its way into the repaired parts, if this is the case then a complete clean out of the fuel system would be required.

[soapy]

right, took car to garage and the said he had taken the injectors to be tested and they showed uneven pressure on all injectors and that they needed to be refurbished,he also stated the the high pressure fuel pump was u/s and needed to be replaced £££££££££,after 2 weeks he said the car would be ready to be picked up as he was nearly finished,after 10 mins he called back to say he could not get thecar to start when it was warmed up,but he knew what it was and should be ok the following morning,anyway i didn't hear anything from him so i rang him,only for him to say that he had a major problem starting the car again and after taking it for a test drive said it was running a bit lumpy and suspected that number 2 injector may be faulty and has returned it to the injection specialist to be looked at again,what worries me is that the symptoms he has experienced was the very same problem that i booked it in for in thefirst place,he said that the cause was someone possibly using cheap bio diesel which has damaged the pump and injectors,but how do i know this is true,also i have no idea what this is going to cost as he said he had not worked out a price yet,should i have to pay for expensive parts if has diagnosed the problem incorrectly ?......any advice would be welcome:shrug:

John my Father in law swore by Drakes at shiptonthorpe for all his work and servicing on his 05 conni cdti ex mg rover dealership still has a T4 diagnostic machine i think not far from Hull well worth a call,link below.

http://www.drakesgarage.co.uk/

Failing that i have been using the Cottingham mot centre for a few years now for the jobs i cannot manage myself and found them to be excellent and knowledgeable regards our cars also they are members of the good garage scheme and charge fairly,link below.

http://www.cottingham-mot.co.uk/index.cfm

Regards Dave.

[Jules]

Benny how much is your bill so far?
Good luck

Jules

[bennyhill]

right guys were shall i start,i bought the car in dec 2010 and from the word go the car was reluctant to start and got steadily worse,i took it to a local fuel injection specialist who diagnosed a serious fuel problem,he removed the injectors and took them to be looked at and all 4 injectors were clogged up with some kind of gunge.
it transpires that the fuel system was contaminated with somekind of dodgy bio fuel,the car got so bad that it was cutting out and refused to start, he had the injectors cleaned and refurbed £400,cleaned out the tank replaced the injectors and the car ran fine for 1/2 hour then cut out and refused to start,hethen removed the injectors again and took them back to be looked at only to find they were clogged up again,he removed the high pressure pump and found it completely gummed up,so much so that it was completely u/s so it to be replaced by a refurbed pump £350+vat,he then replaced the injectors,completely flushed out the fuel system and hey presto now running like clockwork, total cost including parts and many hours of labour (he stopped counting the hours after a while as the cost was rocketing) £1340 !!!!! the moral of the story is caveat emptor.....and never,ever use any other type of fuel other than standard diesel,ps thanks for all your advice

[Dragrad]

So much for being ECO FRIENDLY ;)

It has always been the advice by learned members on this Club's Forums to avoid bio/chip-fat fuels...... and here is a point in case :}

It's a DIESEL engine........ End of. :D

Glad you got it sorted John :D:D Now enjoy the pleasure of driving ;)

[Captain Leisure]

It's a DIESEL engine........ End of.

Actually, the very first Diesel engine exhibited by Rudolf Diesel in 1900 was designed to run on mineral oil and then also ran on vegetable oil without any mods. (I think the very first prototype ran on coal dust(?).)

Modern direct injection/common rail engines need DERV but old ones are a lot more tolerant of other stuff.

[The Garageman]

Hi I Know this question problem was some time ago but Drakes Garage at Shiptonthorpe no longer have a T4 kit from what I gather: it was water damaged when I needed a diagnosis and I had to go elsewhere. This was 2015 so maybe they've sorted since. Do check first!

[AlexK]

Same problem, had the AA out 4times in the last two days!! Resulted in being recovered back on a truck! Have read all I can and even though I tried to get them to check things they said they all said oh no it's not that it's this and so on! Nightmare!!! As put back on the road , sat in to park, turned once, spot on start! Also the 8 times after! Mad, must have thought our neighbours! Same this morning, cold.. Started first turn! When warmed up after 10 min drive, turned for 20 seconds, eventually start! Two more failed attempts! After 4 hours or so of cooling started after 10 sec turn and then subsequently after 3sec start! Taking him to the garage tomorrow, let's pray it's what I have learned after reading advice on forums and net! Camshaft sensor! Cheap fix I hear, but dread it might be injectors! Any suggestions if that isn't it?? Thanks

[Jules]

Alex get it on a diagnostics pref someone with a T4 otherwise it's a guessing game !

Meanwhile some DIY checks.....................
How much fuel is in it?
Is the rear pump working?
Is the front pump running? (if fitted)

The AA will refuse to come to you eventually.
If no joy get it recovered here or to another good specialist ;)

[AlexK]

So in the end, after having it tested by my mechanic friend with his Snap-on test computer, it turns out to be the fuel pump under bonnet! So all 4 AA so called mechanics were telling me lots of porkies and are utterly useless as I kept telling them - I think it's the fuel pump as it shouldn't be so loud and go for so long! Well ordered the pump on ebay, will fit it and see...unfortunately have to wait till Tuesday for it to be delivered! Hopefully it solves the problem as everything else is spot on!

[The Garageman]

Sorry to hear you have that problem. My friend has still not got to the bottom of it. He has checked all the points that Jules recommends. I did suggest swapping the camshaft sensor with a known working item and that made no difference. His car has been laid up for 6 months but regularly kept charged. The one point I suspect is that the engine immobilisation is playing up. My CDTi tourer occasionally refuses to start - turns over okay - so I then operate the arm disarm sequence and it then starts! They do play up sometimes. Cannot offer any other suggestion other than Jules has suggested - getting the AA out?

[Jules]

The AA might just have heard the fuel pump running and assumed all ok.
Without measuring the pressure you cannot assume this.

If it was below 220kpa it would have difficulty starting.
LP Pressure should be at least 350 kpa for 2 pump system and over 400kpa on later single pump.