1.8 turbo petrol 2003. won't start!!

[debbiefudge]

Hi, I'm a newbie.
We have a silver, Rover 75. 2003. 1.8 turbo petrol. Manual.
We are near Brighton. East Sussex.
Have only had her for a few months.
I'm disabled. My Partner, is the driver and mechanic.
I don't think I posted in the right place before, have had a couple of private messages, between T-cut and myself.
During the very cold weather, my Partner was on the by pass and she just broke down.
Called out road side recovery, not the AA or RAC.
He could only find a small pipe at the front, underneath, which had split and was leaking oil.
Pipe was very easy to replace. And then filled up with oil.
No start.
Did the fuel filter, replaced the 'O' ring. (From Ebay).
And then put the orange clip on.
Still no start.
Then put a brand new camshaft sensor on.
Still no start, although she is cranking but won't fire up.
Every single thing has been checked, relays, fuses, etc etc.
Oh, sorry, forgot to say, we bought a brand new Bosch battery.
Even though we had been told it had a new one, when we bought the car.
It was totally dead.
We were also told, the head gasket had been done, by a Rover garage.

What do we try next???

My Partner is a good general mechanic, but this car has him stumpt!!
But never worked on a Rover 75 before.

I LOVE the car, but am at screaming point now!!!
Thought we'd have her for a good few years, but can't keep throwing money at her. Is she worth fixing??
Any help and advice would be most welcome. Thanks.

[T-Cut]

Debbiefudge, your message box is full, so no-one can answer your PMs.

As I remember, you said the engine lost all the oil when the problems started. As I noted before, this can be a very serious thing causing damage internally. So, did you have the compression tested?

The problem seems to be deeper rooted than just getting sparks and fuel. If you are absolutely sure the in-tank filter is pressure tight and the orange clip is fitted, then you really ought to get professional help. Any garage should be able to diagnose the problem.
Good luck.

TC

[debbiefudge]

Hi, am still getting to grips with how it works on here!!
So, reposted on this forum.
Thanks for your message.

Partner is going to do a compression test, having just bought the equipment, to do so.
I've ordered another 'O' ring from Ebay and he is going to double check the pump, although he can hear it. And is sure he did it properly.
And put the orange clip on properly.

At the moment, we have no money to take her to a garage and pay hefty bills.

Does any one know a good garage that deals with Rovers in East Sussex, for future reference, please?

We are going to have to keep trying to solve it, ourselves for now.

[James.uk]

If you do the compression test with all the plugs out and the header tank cap removed, then if the head gasket has failed, the coolant will overflow when pressure is put into the faulty cylinder.. :o

If -- having tested all the cylinders, the coolant has not overflowed, then you can rest assured that the head gasket is OK. :D

It is possible for the HG to fail between a cylinder and an oil way, but in that case there would be oil everywhere as the sump would become pressurised. :(
...

[COLVERT]

If you do the compression test with all the plugs out and the header tank cap removed, then if the head gasket has failed, the coolant will overflow when pressure is put into the faulty cylinder.. :o

If -- having tested all the cylinders, the coolant has not overflowed, then you can rest assured that the head gasket is OK. :D

It is possible for the HG to fail between a cylinder and an oil way, but in that case there would be oil everywhere as the sump would become pressurised. :(
...
James. You really need the compression test done with all the plugs but the one you are testing in. Otherwise you Won'T generate any pressure to go past the gasket ( If damaged ) and into the water jacket !! ( Except for the one you are testing. )



Colvert.
If you think the gasket is gone would it not be better just to spin the engine over to check for coolant loss from the header tank ? Not remove the plugs.

[SD1too]

We are going to have to keep trying to solve it, ourselves for now.
Quite right Debbie, and we are here to help you. :)

I understand from your postings that your engine is turning over on the starter but not firing. It's puzzling that this has occurred after repairing the oil leak, particularly as you say that the oil level has been replenished to the correct level on the dipstick. Can you describe the circumstances and symptoms which led to the breakdown?

I'm not sure how a compression test will help. An engine with head gasket failure will still run, but yours doesn't even start.

I'm not an expert on the 1.8 engine but I would suggest that your husband/mechanic goes back to basics by checking for fuel flow in the engine bay by breaking a connection in the fuel line and removing a spark plug to check for ignition.

Simon.

[goldievvc]

Hi Debbie, hope to be of assistence here.

Firstly, disregard both comments from james and colvert. Sorry to sound harsh gents, but that is no way to check for a head gasket failure.

From what you have described, it sounds like the oil return from the turbo has perished/split which isn`t too common. As T-cut has said above, this is a very big deal. First gut feeling from what you have written says you`ve lost compression. could be several things, but from going with the oil loss, i`d be looking at the piston rings first. A compression check should show quite clearly if this is a major fault or not. As I said, it could be a number of things for no compression if it has been hot, cracked liner, head gasket, holed piston etc. If the compression is down at all on any cylinders, you`ll need the head off for further inspection, regardless of what it is.

First step is the compression test though. Let us know how that goes and we can take it from there.

Goldie

[James.uk]

Hiya Colvey -- :)

The purpose of doing one cylinder at a time is to find out exactly where the fault in the gasket lies.. :)

It wont matter if the other plugs are out, but it will make turning the engine over far easier if they are out.. :)

Having read the details given by the OP it does appear that the problem lies elswhere though.. :shrug:

Failure to start is either -- no fuel getting to the cylinders--No ignition spark at the combustion point.. and/or the timing is out... :shrug:
...

[goldievvc]

or no compression. you need all 4 to work :)

[chrissyboy]

i`d check the cam and crank shaft sensors, and check that your getting a spark ,, on turning it over you should smell fuel ... and also check for compression ,but leave the other plugs in .. remember ...spark fuel and compression if all 3 are present the car would start ...

[James.uk]

goldievvc wrote..

>>>or no compression. you need all 4 to work<<<

Ignore what ole goldievvc said, :} as I have had many a car engine run on 3 cylinders (or less!) "Sorry to sound harsh" but there ya go goldie. heh heh. ;) :D :D
...

[Mike Noc]

How have we got on to HGF here? Bit premature!

Debbiefudge can I ask how much oil did the engine lose when it broke down? If it lost it all then it looks like you may have blown the engine. As suggested do a compression test. If the engine fails the test and it lost all its oil when it broke down then it probably isn't worth rebuilding - far cheaper to buy a second hand replacement. But worth removing the head to inspect the damage to see what has failed.



Mike

[debbiefudge]

Thankyou to all of you for taking the time to reply.
I will pass it all onto my Partner to read.
We have put new crankshaft in.
Really good quality spark plugs.,
My Partner is convinced the engine is still ok???????????
He seems to think if he had a good, downward hill start, she would fire up.
The Head gasket was replaced by the previous owner.
I realise, it could have gone again though?
I'm not sure how much oil actually came out, but it caused the car to stop. The oil light didn't come on in the car, and I've wondered about that?

We spent so much time and energy and money on getting her looking nice, body work etc., I'd hate to part with her! I think they are beautiful cars!

Any how, Guys, Thanks again for all your help.
It won't be until the weekend before she can be looked at again, properly. Weather permitting!
Cheers, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi all, again.
My Partner has read everything now!
Just to say, I got it wrong in my first posting!
It's defo the CRANKSHAFT sensor we have renewed!

He's just told me, that not all the oil came out apparently!
Says the tank holds about 7 litres of oil, and only had to put in about 4 litres in and it was full again.
So, does that make any difference???????????

He's French! What can I say! LOL!

[T-Cut]

I'm not sure how much oil actually came out, but it caused the car to stop.

Everything's open to interpretation in a situation like this, but when you say the loss of oil 'caused the car to stop', do you mean it literally ground to a halt as you were driving? The engine slowed to a stop even though you were trying to drive? Did the high temperature warning (red light ) pop on before this happened? The way you describe events suggests a serious situation developed, but all the detail is needed to gain a clear picture of what's actually happened.

TC

[goldievvc]

that engine holds 4.5 litres of oil without the turbo. so maybe 5 litres in total with? so if it took 4 litres, you`re in trouble!

james, not 4 cylinders mate, 4 aspects : fuel, spark, timing and compression. you can`t run properly with only 3.

[Martynp]

As you can see Debbie the forum will help IF the forum gets the correct information.

May I suggest that your Mechanic/partner write down a full description of full sequence of events for you to transmit word for word here.

It is very easy to lead us astray with poor descriptions etc as we cannot see hear or touch your car, often smell also comes into the equation believe it or not

Good luck with the compression test!

T-cut is one of the forum experts on your model car, owns one himself-----see the number of his posts and he does not engage much with idle chatter, just good honest mechanical advice

[James.uk]

I think this is fun, it's a "guess whats wrong with my car" sort of thread.. lol. :D :D :D

Well the mechanics French innit.. lol :D
...

[chrissyboy]

i think you need to go back to basics .. do you hear the fuel pump when ignition is turned on .if so you will know the ecm is awake and ready .. check to see if the car is gettin a spark and that the fuel is getting to injectors . to me it sounds like an immobliser problem i know on these cars it shouldnt crank over but if something is wrong with in the system it is possible for it to crank over ... ... close all window and lock the car with the key fob..then open car with key fob then try to start the car ... if no luck check all fuses , to make sure none have blown ... it could also be the fuel pump as if you dont get enough pressure to the injectors the car just wont start...it could also be the filter not not ut together properly as has been said .get the parter to re check that itis put together right ,,if it is slightly open it will not work as it should ...

[debbiefudge]

Hi all,
Many thanks for all your messages.
Gosh, you guys are up late on here!!
I guess, it is a bit like, 'guess, what's wrong with the car'!!
I will get him to write everything down, so, all the facts are on here.
As far as I'm aware, so far, no lights came on, there was no smell.
It just slowly, came to a stop.

Coolant level, all ok. We had put K Seal in, previously.

Could it be the Turbo, that's gone?
But she would start, wouldn't she? Even if it had gone?
I know, I'm guessing, not being a mechanic!

Thanks again, Regards, Debbie.

CHRISSYBOY.... Fuel pump can be heard. O ring was replaced and orange clip put on. We have been through all the imboliser issues. We only have one key for the car. All, fuses and relays have been double checked.

[8511swann]

Is it possible that the oil loss caused a seizure at the top of the engine and snapped something?. I've heard cars that sounded like they were winding over completely normally, but had a cam shaft in 6 pieces!

[Mike Noc]

Hi all, again.
My Partner has read everything now!
Just to say, I got it wrong in my first posting!
It's defo the CRANKSHAFT sensor we have renewed!

He's just told me, that not all the oil came out apparently!
Says the tank holds about 7 litres of oil, and only had to put in about 4 litres in and it was full again.
So, does that make any difference???????????

He's French! What can I say! LOL!

If you replaced 4 litres of oil then it does look like the engine stopped due to lack of oil, which is serious.

Before spending any more money do a compression test. If you have compression, then as suggested before its back to basics fuel and sparks at the correct time.

If the compression test fails then the head will have to come to find out why.

Mike

[debbiefudge]

Hi guys. Thought I'd be in the driver's seat tonight... I'm Marc. Debbie's partner. And yes, I'm French (LOL).
Thanks for all your replies.
Here is the account, blow by blow if you'll excuse the pun of what happened that fateful night:
drove approximately 16 miles when felt a sudden loss of power going up hill.
Parked the car within 100 yards. No warning lights on dash came on.
Opened the bonnet. Steam everywhere (it was dark, so couldn't see clearly).
Noticed a pipe leaking underneath, so thought it was a water leak
Tried to start the car. No success.
Car didn't crank at the time.
Called recovery who, when checking on the leaking pipe said it was not coolant leaking, it was oil.
Got home on a flatbed.
Since then, pipe was replaced.
Pipe links injector rail to blockhead.
Fuel filter O ring also replaced and orange clip fitted.
fuel pump hums.
K-Seal in when we got the car.
Battery is brand new Bosch. Was fitted to car after breakdown.
all lights, wipers and horn working.
Inertia switch checked.
New crankshaft fitted.
Check sparking at the plugs. Found to be ok. Gapped correctly.
Head gasket changed by previous owner (Rover garage).
Can smell fuel too, in engine when cranking.
Injector rail is ok too.
Camshaft sensor is also ok.
Car cranks but will not start.
Double checked fuses and relays. None blown or faulty.
When taken plugs out (bought a decent set and changed prior nto breakdown), they were not oily. Just normal.
Coolant level also ok. At the moment it's got blue coolant in
Topped oil with about 3.5 litres.
Have yet to do a compression test, now the kit is here. I can only work on the car at weekends, weather permitting.
I consider myself to be a good mechanic. I've the ability to service and fix cars myself, but I'm at the end of my tether with this one!

Regards,
Marc:}

[harrymclarry]

i know you have had oil loss which isnt good, but just to throw something in i found once. After continual cranking, the bores became wet with petrol and stopped the rings creating any compression. I squirted a little 10w/40 down each bore and sure enough she picked up. Only an outside chance i know, but worth a mention perhaps.

[Martynp]

Well I will comment on the coolant to save others having to cover that aspect of your description

K seal used in coolant system, this is not recommended for our cars. Forum concensus.

There must be a reason why it was used, very likely that the thermostat housing/ associated plastic pipeing was/is leaking
Original hose clips used in the coolant system are not of the best type either,
recommended change is to jubilee type

The correct antifreeze for our cars is red OAT type, cheapest from Vauhall outlets.
I would drain all the blue out, flush & refill. 50/50 mix coolant & water
Do not mix red with blue, different composition----

You mentioned steam in the darkness,
Header tank correct level is some 2" below the header tank cap, just above the internal grid, level marked on the passenger side of tank neck, difficult to see, use a torch shone inside the neck.
This gap allows room for coolant to expand when engine up to temperature
System should be filled under a vacumme to eliminate air trapped which is usualy indicated by cold air at compartment vents, usualy on the passenger side, when heat has been called for

Header tank screw cap is marked 140 which equates to about 20lbs/square inch of coolant pressure in the system when hot & thermostat open.
These do not last forever, new cost circa £15 from Xpart

WE always say here that red colour staining indicates source of coolant leaks, guess you should look for blue staining

Thats all from me, will leave the other points to forum experts who probably own the same model as you have & will speak from experience, very likely learnt the hard way!
Good luck, You will win!

[debbiefudge]

Just a quick reply.
We know about the red coolant and had already bought some, to flush and refill with red 50/50.
Just hadn't got around to doing it yet.
The K Seal was put in as a preventative measure, not to repair anything.
Have read for's and against's on here for it.
Regards, Debbie.

[SD1too]

Hello Marc and welcome to the forum. On behalf of everyone, thank you for posting a detailed account of what happened which is useful, but one or two things worry me.

1. Steam suggests overheating yet you did not see any warnings in the instrument pack. In these circumstances the engine fan should have been running even though you had stopped the engine.

2. Your recovery company said that you had an oil leak from a pipe which "... links injector rail to blockhead ..." I'm puzzled by this. The injector rail contains only fuel surely?

3.
New crankshaft fitted.
Mon dieu (excuse my French!). Do you mean the crankshaft position sensor?

4. Head gasket changed by previous owner (Rover garage).
Hmmm; steam, oil leak, car won't fire. I wonder if the correct modified gasket and uprated bolts and "ladder rail" (I think that's the right term ;)) were fitted.

5. Coolant level also ok. At the moment it's got blue coolant in.
So despite the steam there was no coolant loss? :confused: (With respect to MartynP I wouldn't drain it yet; that's the least of your problems.)

So with your helpful evidence I'm in agreement that a compression test would be a good idea. Where steam and oil are concerned I would also not rule out a problem with the turbo, but if that was siezed would it stop the engine firing? Can a 1.8T expert advise please?

Simon.

[T-Cut]

- - - -
Tried to start the car. No success.
Car didn't crank at the time.


If you mean the starter wasn't turning the engine over, then I'd say it had seized at that stage. That doesn't sound good. Engine grinds to halt/overheat/steam/total oil loss (almost). Since then, contraction has allowed the starter to turn it over, but nothing works. I'd say the pistons/rings are shot/no compression. Now requires professional investigation and repair could be rather expensive. I hope I've misinterpretted what happened.

TC

[goldievvc]

As said from the start, this sounds like it`s dumped all it`s oil somewhere (no sign of a trail from car when it broke down?) and seized to a halt due to temperature. The best thing you can do from here is a compression test. In all honesty you are wasting your time and money doing anything else. If you were to bring it to my workshop or my work, that is the first thing i`d be doing based on your story.

i can`t think of any pipe that links the fuel rail to the head other than the breathers on the cam cover to inlet, one has a on-way-valve in it that is only found on the turbo`s to stop oil being blown back and the other a breather. if the one-way-valve had failed, you`d have engine oil everywhere. i would have said the more likely of hoses to fail would be on the front of the engine linking the turbo to the block (oil return), or at extreme the braided pipe from thefilter housing to turbo (oil feed). can`t think of anything else that has oil in it connecting to the engine.

[Martynp]

Follow on from T-cut post 28

Think we need to understand more of the initial actions.
"Engine, sudden loss of power & car brought to a halt"

Recognising that, did you depress the clutch & coast to a halt?
Was the engine still running at that point? Presumably in neutral gear ?

Or did you drive the car still to find a safe place to park? Then turning the ignition off yourself

Looks as if head removal to investigate state of cylinder bores/cylinder head valves initialy, is highly likely.
Your choice concerning compression testing

Also very carefull inspection of the head gasket, failed between bores? signs of let by between cylinders or to engine externaly?
Later correct type gasket fitted?

As stated coolant system is the least of your worries at this time.
Only posted to save others from doing so, who were considering your total description of events.

[Mike Noc]

Follow on from T-cut post 28

Think we need to understand more of the initial actions.
"Engine, sudden loss of power & car brought to a halt"

Recognising that, did you depress the clutch & coast to a halt?
Was the engine still running at that point? Presumably in neutral gear ?

Or did you drive the car still to find a safe place to park? Then turning the ignition off yourself

Looks as if head removal to investigate state of cylinder bores/cylinder head valves initialy, is highly likely.
Your choice concerning compression testing.

Also very carefull inspection of the head gasket, failed between bores? signs of let by between cylinders or to engine externaly?
Later correct type gasket fitted?

As stated coolant system is the least of your worries at this time.
Only posted to save others from doing so, who were considering your total description of events.

Martynp as a few of us have said earlier a compression test is required - if its OK then you don't have to take the head off.

Personally, and again as I stated earlier, I think the engine has had it but logical fault finding is the best way to find out - and I hope it hasn't.

If it were my car and had broken down in the same circumstances a compression test would have been the third thing I would have done - after a quick fuel and sparks check.

Mike

[Martynp]

Could we all be missing the point here?
Original poster has reported a massive oil loss---where from?
He states "pipe replaced"

Agree, cylinder compression testing is taking the easiest option but at what further risk?
Which is why I said its a choice.

Could remove all sparking plugs & establish if engine will spin? May well throw oil from one or more plug holes?
Assuming oil levels are now correct

Certainly a tough one from where we are-----Unexpected expenditure is always a problem to most of us :(

[debbiefudge]

This is a reply to you all. Thanks for all your input, guys.
First to apologise about the error: I replaced the crankshaft sensor. Not the crankshaft.
Now hopefully, more in-depth about details about the breakdown
I was actually driving up a hill when I noticed the loss of power. I know this road very well and was aware of this lay-by just a 100 yd ahead, so parked there. As I stopped the car, it stalled. As I approached the lay-by, there were definetely NO warning lights on dash. I turned the key off, then opened the bonnet. What I thought was steam at the time was in fact oil burning on the hot block. The recovery guy confirmed it was oil, not coolant that had escaped through this leaking pipe.
From what I can also remember, there was no oil trail behind the car (I assume once more that it was seeping onto the already hot engine? Having driven this 16 miles or so).
Before the flatbed arrived, I tried to start the car without success. It didn't want to fire then, whereas now it coughs from time to time when I crank it.
The leaking pipe I've now replaced connects onto the block at the top on the left. It is not quite an "S" shape, and is left of the one Goldievvc I think, describes (pipe which has got a valve in the middle of it). I could only "feel" how far down it goes, but gets lost in the zigzag of pipes. Being dark (about 9.30pm), even with a torch was not easy.
All I know is that the Haynes manual specific to the Rover 75 does not show a picture for this pipe.

I believe and understand that a compression test would have been the first thing to do. I had no proper kit at the time. We've got one now, but I've never performed this kind of test before, but I read somewhere that the amount of cranks should be the same for each cylinder. Do I jot every reading at each crank and get the average?
Any help on this matter, for me to get it right first time, will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

In the case of the pistons, this is again something I've never had to replace before (I'm a novice compared to you all. But we all start somewhere. Right?). That sounds costly and almost impossible to do without proper equipment. The breakdown of parts and cost from an earlier post is astronomical!

The compression test, hopefully will tell me more... Saturday.

Regards,
Marc

[goldievvc]

keep cranking until it peaks on each cylinder mate, will become apparent when you do it.

[chrissyboy]

This is a reply to you all. Thanks for all your input, guys.
First to apologise about the error: I replaced the crankshaft sensor. Not the crankshaft.
Now hopefully, more in-depth about details about the breakdown
I was actually driving up a hill when I noticed the loss of power. I know this road very well and was aware of this lay-by just a 100 yd ahead, so parked there. As I stopped the car, it stalled. As I approached the lay-by, there were definetely NO warning lights on dash. I turned the key off, then opened the bonnet. What I thought was steam at the time was in fact oil burning on the hot block. The recovery guy confirmed it was oil, not coolant that had escaped through this leaking pipe.
From what I can also remember, there was no oil trail behind the car (I assume once more that it was seeping onto the already hot engine? Having driven this 16 miles or so).
Before the flatbed arrived, I tried to start the car without success. It didn't want to fire then, whereas now it coughs from time to time when I crank it.
The leaking pipe I've now replaced connects onto the block at the top on the left. It is not quite an "S" shape, and is left of the one Goldievvc I think, describes (pipe which has got a valve in the middle of it). I could only "feel" how far down it goes, but gets lost in the zigzag of pipes. Being dark (about 9.30pm), even with a torch was not easy.
All I know is that the Haynes manual specific to the Rover 75 does not show a picture for this pipe.

I believe and understand that a compression test would have been the first thing to do. I had no proper kit at the time. We've got one now, but I've never performed this kind of test before, but I read somewhere that the amount of cranks should be the same for each cylinder. Do I jot every reading at each crank and get the average?
Any help on this matter, for me to get it right first time, will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

In the case of the pistons, this is again something I've never had to replace before (I'm a novice compared to you all. But we all start somewhere. Right?). That sounds costly and almost impossible to do without proper equipment. The breakdown of parts and cost from an earlier post is astronomical!

The compression test, hopefully will tell me more... Saturday.

Regards,
Marc

count to 5 to test each cylinder so you know you will gain a true reading of the engine , needs to be 5 revolutions per cylinder ,then compare each reading .10% diffrence to your highest reading the engine hould be having enough compression,mak sure everything on car is plugged it tight .it is possiableto have bought a fauty sensor ie the crank sensor .

[SD1too]

First to apologise about the error: I replaced the crankshaft sensor. Not the crankshaft.
As I stopped the car, it stalled. As I approached the lay-by, there were definetely NO warning lights on dash.
What I thought was steam at the time was in fact oil burning on the hot block.
Before the flatbed arrived, I tried to start the car without success. It didn't want to fire then, whereas now it coughs from time to time when I crank it.
The leaking pipe I've now replaced connects onto the block at the top on the left. It is not quite an "S" shape...
Thanks for the additional information Marc.

Last night I studied the MG Rover workshop manual. I think the pipe you're describing could be the 'turbocharger oil drain pipe'. This looks of metal construction with a two bolt flange and gasket where it connects with the bottom of the turbo. The other end has a boss which is bolted to the engine block. A leak from here could cause oil contamination of the oil pressure and temperature switches mounted on the oil filter head. Has this area been thoroughly cleaned with an engine degreaser? The manual's block diagram shows the oil pressure switch connection to the ECM but there are no further details. It's possible that in the event of a low pressure signal the ECM cuts engine fuelling and ignition, but I stress that I'm guessing about this but it might explain why the engine stalled in the lay-by.

We're all looking forward to the results of the compression test so good luck with that.

Simon.

Marc: I tried to send you a P.M. but your inbox is full. Can you clear some space?

[debbiefudge]

Hi, That can't be the right pipe.
The pipe I replaced is rubber, about 6" in length and connected, each end with jubilee clips. One end is to the block and the other end is connected to a metal, rigid pipe. It's strange that it's not in the Haynes. I also have a Rover repair and service manual on disc and it's not on there either.
So, seems to be a mystery at this stage???

Think I've cleared my message box now!

[chrissyboy]

can you post a pic of the pipe

[debbiefudge]

Hi, will get Marc to try and put a picture on, later.
He'l have to get under the car, to try and take one.
He's doing the compression test at the moment.
Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys.
I think the pipe picture may be irrelevent!
Although Marc did take some.

Having spent hours out there in the cold, trying every, which way, the compression test has turned up a big fat zero on each and every cylinder.
No readings at all!
I'm guessing, that means the car has had it!!!???
Regards, Debbie

[T-Cut]

the compression test has turned up a big fat zero on each and every cylinder.
No readings at all!

No readings at all seems slightly odd. Even with a set of wrecked rings, I'd have expected something. Ask Marc if there's any suck/blow detectable when a finger is placed over the plug holes and it's turned on the starter. Pressure testing can't really be done single-handed. Are you able to help?

TC

[COLVERT]

You need one person in the car to operate the starter and to hold the throttle fully open while the other person holds the compression tester in place.

[COLVERT]

If there was a smell of burning oil from the engine then it was VERY hot. At those sorts of temperatures the pistons will start to fuse to the cylinder walls and the chance of piston ring damage is extremely high. Hence no compression readings.

[COLVERT]

Also, with no oil pressure you will have melted the big end bearings so even if you can get it started it will sound like a bag of bolts.

[chrissyboy]

that is unbelievable .even if the engine was shot you would still get compression albeit very low ... how did marc do the test ... squirt some wd40 in the holes and retake the tests as a wet test ,now you should get some sort of reading ...

[paulandsam]

Hi Debbie, I cant really ad much more to this other than what the other guys have said. However if push comes to shove and you want to take it to a Rover/MG specialist you have Sterling automotive in Eastbourne so pretty close by. I have used them a couple of times for bits and found them both friendly and proffesional. Hope if all else fails that might help. Paul

[debbiefudge]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies and the questions. As Debbie said earlier, the compression test I did showed no reading on the gauge.
I did the test by myself. Each time the throttle needed to be open, I had my toolbox wedged against the accelerator pedal, with me standing outside the car able to see and read the gauge whilst cranking the engine 5 times (1 full revolution).
First the test was done with all the plugs out. No reading on the gauge. I then proceeded to do the test with 3 plugs in and testing compression on the other cylinder. Started with cylinder 1, then 2, 3, then 4 (left to right). Still no movement of the needle at all.
I began to believe my compression test kit is not that good, until I went indoors for a cuppa.
Debbie had read by then that a little WD40 in the bores wouldn't hurt.
Test was repated with 1 plug out and 3 in. Same amount of turns of the key, with me still able to see and read the gauge. No reading.
Lastly, test was done with all plugs out. No reading either. Second round of tests was done with the header tank cap off, then on.

I can tell you however, that the piston rings are not welded to the chamber as each piston has movement: with the help of a torch, I visually noted the position of the piston before, and after the test before putting the sparkplug back in. There had been movement in each cylinder.

Also, everywhere I read about the compression test, they say it should be done on a warm engine... Is this why I couldn't get a reading on the gauge? We paid good money for the compression test kit. Could it be faulty?

What next?


Regards, Marc

[Martynp]

Post 41 test by T-cut??

You should feel something-----tried WD40, try a squirt of engine oil in each cylinder.
If you can't feel anything then tester probably at fault

Suggest with all plugs removed, if only to save the battery

Anyone know what compression readings are normal, while we are at it, as some indication of what Marc should be looking for?
Lowest acceptable??

Note, I use a pencil to register position of pistons each time engine is turned, as a position gauge,
If no compression at all they could be returning to the same position each time?

Do not leave the pencil in position of course!! When turning engine over

[goldievvc]

noy really marc. you get 2 types of compression tester, 1 you have to hold firmly into the spark plug hole, the other is a screw in type. if it is the screw type, as long as you have the correct thread pitch, it will be fairly accurate. you can test the compression yourself with this type as the guage will hold the reading until reset.

i`ve no idea why folk have told you to hold the trottle open.

if this has no compression, you will hear a different note to usual on crank (trying to start) it`s much more high pitched.

the compression rings could be stuck to the piston or infact not there! you could try bringing a piston to the top and try a little petrol down there, and check the level after a short while. see if it drains right into the sump.

there is a lot of good, useless, confusing and contradicting info being offered in this thread marc. it can`t be easy to work out what exactly is the best protocol!

[goldievvc]

Post 41 test by T-cut??
You should feel something-----tried WD40, try a squirt of engine oil in each cylinder.
If you can feel anything then tester probably at fault

Suggest with all plugs removed, if only to save the battery

Anyone know what compression readings are normal, while we are at it, as some indication of what Marc should be looking for?
Lowest acceptable??

standard k series engines are roughly 180 across the board as a rule of thumb. my race pistons are 220. these turbos are lower compression so at a genuine guess, 150 - 160, and that`s purely an educated guess.

[Martynp]

standard k series engines are roughly 180 across the board as a rule of thumb. my race pistons are 220. these turbos are lower compression so at a genuine guess, 150 - 160, and that`s purely an educated guess.

Good info Goldi, gives Marc some indication
Good tip with petrol in the cylinders to establish piston ring letby, by the way:)

[SD1too]

... the compression test has turned up a big fat zero on each and every cylinder.
Has your cambelt snapped?

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Thanks for the quick replies, guys.
Equipment is of the screw-into-the-plughole-type. And it needs re-setting after each use.
So it is possible that the fault lies with the tester, hence the no reading. Also, can the piston rings come off the pistons and weld themselves to the chamber, thus leaving the piston to travel its course, but not sealing the chamber?
Have not tried a drop of petrol in the bore holes yet. I guess I'll do that tomorrow now.

Regards, Marc

[chrissyboy]

Has your cambelt snapped?

Simon.

possible,, that the belt has snapped , can the op see the aux belt moving when cranking the engine ,if so then the timing belt will be in oe piece still so would be able to rule that out ,

[stocktake]

Not commented on this thread, the 1.8 is not my field. however:

No compression of any engine usually means the head has to come off. sounds serious now :(

[goldievvc]

possible,, that the belt has snapped , can the op see the aux belt moving when cranking the engine ,if so then the timing belt will be in oe piece still so would be able to rule that out ,


no, the aux belt will move even if the belt has snapped as it`s attached to the crank pulley.

[Mike Noc]

no, the aux belt will move even if the belt has snapped as it`s attached to the crank pulley.

Only takes a couple of minutes to remove the top cam cover. You can try the compression tester on an engine you know is good, but I doubt its the tester that is faulty. When you lose a large amount of oil and the engine fails at the same time it is usually terminal.

Only strange thing is no warning lights. Does the oil pressure light come on with the ignition now?

I have come across a couple of cars for sale with the oil light disconnected - and it is easy to miss it.

Mike

[chrissyboy]

no, the aux belt will move even if the belt has snapped as it`s attached to the crank pulley.

does it i myself have only seen one car with the belt broken and the aux belt didnt move as the belt fits round the cam and drives the aux belts ,but if what you say is true then i stand corrected ..

[debbiefudge]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all your posts.
Just to let you know, I have not done the finger in the hole to test resistance yet. Have no help at present either.
I referred a while back about the burning oil smell. This was meant at the time of the breakdown where the oil had spilt on the blockhead.
After the compression test yesterday, all I could smell in the cylinders was fuel (I smelt the end of the screw thread pipe).
I briefly checked the timing belt yesterday after the compression test. It's fine: no cracks, splits, etc...
I am on my way now to remove the camcover and inspect the inside. I understand the tightening sequence in the Haynes is self-explanatory. The un-tightening is a reverse, I believe.
Before I get on with this, I'm going to check the aux belt to see if it moves or not.
I tried to also upload a picture of the leaky pipe, but each time the message was that the file could not beloaded. Not much point now...

I also like your optimism in removing the cam cover. It'll take me at least 30 minutes... LOL.

The wanrning light did not come on at the time of the breakdown. I casn confirm however that, each time I turn the ignition on, the light comes on and switches itself off as normal.

Should also get some help today, but Im not holding my breath.
Will let you know of the results for the work done today.

Have a good Sunday all. I'm off to the cold parking space...

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys,
This is Debbie.
I'm disabled, that's why I can't help Marc.
This is also, one of the major reasons we bought the Rover 75. Comfort and leg room.

It's not looking good, from what I understand.
Which doesn't leave us with many choices.

We certainly can't afford to put another engine in. And I guess you never know what faults you might be buying/taking on, with that any way.

Question is: Whats the best thing to do???

Sell it for scrap or repair???
And if so, where would be the best place to sell it???

What could we get for it, any ideas?
Body work is all good, alloys are ok. Internally, it's in good condition.
Have put in reversing sensors and stereo. New hand brake and gear gaitors, etc., etc.

Not really, in a position to take it apart and sell it off, bit by bit, which I presume, we would get more for it. But, we don't have a garage, just a small drive way.

[chrissyboy]

the first thing to do is to find out exactly what the problem is .. then decide if it is vaible to repair ,but having said that even if the cost to repair is too much then keeping the car for years to come would be the way to go ... i myself would have either another engine put in or have it repaired ..maybe a member near to you would help marc to do a rebuild on it for just his time ,you never know this club is full of good people like that ...even if they could just define what is actually wrong with the car

[COLVERT]

noy really marc. you get 2 types of compression tester, 1 you have to hold firmly into the spark plug hole, the other is a screw in type. if it is the screw type, as long as you have the correct thread pitch, it will be fairly accurate. you can test the compression yourself with this type as the guage will hold the reading until reset.

i`ve no idea why folk have told you to hold the throttle open..

if this has no compression, you will hear a different note to usual on crank (trying to start) it`s much more high pitched.

the compression rings could be stuck to the piston or infact not there! you could try bringing a piston to the top and try a little petrol down there, and check the level after a short while. see if it drains right into the sump.

there is a lot of good, useless, confusing and contradicting info being offered in this thread marc. it can`t be easy to work out what exactly is the best protocol!
The throttle is held open on a petrol engine so as not to restrict the flow of air into the engine.

[COLVERT]

If the cambelt had broken then there would have been contact between some of the valves and pistons. ie. bent valves and damaged pistons

[COLVERT]

If an engine seizes through lack of oil it's the pistons that seize in the bores. When the engine cools it usually frees itself due to the greater reduction in size of the pistons relative to the bores. The rings will not seize to the bores. The rings might lose some of their tension against the cylinder wall, through being overheated though, and allow blow past of the gases and give lower compression test readings.

[chrissyboy]

can we please stick to trying to help the op with there problem and stop trying to score points of each other thank you guys ..

[chrissyboy]

If you do the compression test with all the plugs out and the header tank cap removed, then if the head gasket has failed, the coolant will overflow when pressure is put into the faulty cylinder.. :o

If -- having tested all the cylinders, the coolant has not overflowed, then you can rest assured that the head gasket is OK. :D

It is possible for the HG to fail between a cylinder and an oil way, but in that case there would be oil everywhere as the sump would become pressurised. :(
...

thats how my head gasket failed ,betwen cylinders due to the 3 serious over heatings i had hen i first got the car ... easy just to remove the plug and put air in to the cylinder and that would bubble up in the header tank if gasket had failed ,but with gasket gone car would still start i would of thoght

[T-Cut]

Personally, I'm not yet convinced the compression results are valid. The tester kit may have a release valve which hasn't been closed to do the test. I dunno - it doesn't seem right that there's absolutely no reading. The whole thing seems unusual. No warning lights is rather wierd if the engine really did seize. I hope we're all barking up the wrong tree on this.

TC

[chrissyboy]

i agree with that t-cut ,, i would of expected a reading even if the reading was well low, turning the engine has to give some sort of compression... if no oil the engine maybe would of seized up ,but th op says the engine is turning but not firing ... i would there for look t no fuel coming to injectors or spark getting to the coil packs.... just a thought but is the plug to supply the coil with power plugged in ?. do you hear the fuel pump when you put the ignition on?

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys.
An update:
Just had a quick visit from a mechanic friend, who works for the V&A Group. But admits he doesn't know Rovers.
He took plugs, 2&4 out, cranked the engine and coolant overflowed from header tank.

The pipe I replaced, is a breather pipe, not an oil pipe.
But on the day of the breakdown oil must have flowed through it and split it, from somewhere? And spilt hot oil onto the block.

From what you've all said in your posts, do I correctly assume, that it came from the sump being pressurised??

The V&A guy is fairly sure it's HGF.
And is coming back next weekend for a proper look, when I've jacked the car up for him.

Sooooooooooooo,

If it's definately HGF. What is the best to replace it with and where from??
What exactly do we need to get in total?
An idea from you guys, would be most welcome, please.

I can't help wondering, that, as we have only had the car about 6 months and when we bought it, we were told, it had not long had a new gasket done, WHY, has it gone again, so soon??????????
Not like it's even been on a long journey yet, just driven around town and to and from work.

Regards, Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

Hi Guys.
An update:
Just had a quick visit from a mechanic friend, who works for the V&A Group. But admits he doesn't know Rovers.
He took plugs, 2&4 out, cranked the engine and coolant overflowed from header tank.

The pipe I replaced, is a breather pipe, not an oil pipe.
But on the day of the breakdown oil must have flowed through it and split it, from somewhere? And spilt hot oil onto the block.

From what you've all said in your posts, do I correctly assume, that it came from the sump being pressurised??

The V&A guy is fairly sure it's HGF.
And is coming back next weekend for a proper look, when I've jacked the car up for him.

Sooooooooooooo,

If it's definately HGF. What is the best to replace it with and where from??
What exactly do we need to get in total?
An idea from you guys, would be most welcome, please.

I can't help wondering, that, as we have only had the car about 6 months and when we bought it, we were told, it had not long had a new gasket done, WHY, has it gone again, so soon??????????
Not like it's even been on a long journey yet, just driven around town and to and from work.

Regards, Debbie.
you should get the mls gasket uprated oil rail, new stretch bolts a new water pump and while its stripped down i would put a new timing belt in.the reasn the gasket hasnt lasted too long coud be the job wasnt done to a good standard and or there as air in the system which caused an major over heat ... out o intrest when you have parked the car did the fan ever continue to run even through the key was not in the ignition?.the i find it ard to understand that the engine wont start if it is indeed hgf. mine had gon and i was driving for 10 months like it with no lose of power ,i guess it all depends on how the head gasket failed,also as it has had the head gasket done before it may need to have a new head as you cant really skim it twice.thats if the head s not cracked or anything

[chrissyboy]

i just read on the net that if the ecm detects low oil pressure which losing that much oil would have low oil pressure the engine shuts down to prevent serious damage ... this is done by the inertia switch cut off being activated ,now i dont know if this applys to these cars but what i read is that all modern cars do this ... was just a thought as you say the engine cranks over but dont fire ...try pressing it in to see if it is this.

[SD1too]

Hi Debbie,

It seems as if we have a breakthrough thanks to your mechanic friend.

If it's definitely HGF. What is the best to replace it with and where from??
Chrissyboy has outlined what you need. I understand that Sterling Automotive are not far from you in Eastbourne, and they are an MG Rover X-Part dealer. Their parts department will be able to supply the correct uprated head gasket etc. and answer any concerns you have.
I can't help wondering, that, as we have only had the car about 6 months and when we bought it, we were told, it had not long had a new gasket done...
Faults which occur within 6 months of sale are now considered to be present or developing at the time of purchase, so it is the dealer's responsibility to repair it (so says the Saturday Telegraph motoring section, see www.honestjohn.co.uk). As you were specifically told that the gasket had been replaced recently, you may have a stronger than normal case. You can e-mail Honest John with your specific circumstances and he will reply quickly.

Simon.

[Mike Noc]

Hi Guys.
An update:
Just had a quick visit from a mechanic friend, who works for the V&A Group. But admits he doesn't know Rovers.
He took plugs, 2&4 out, cranked the engine and coolant overflowed from header tank.

The pipe I replaced, is a breather pipe, not an oil pipe.
But on the day of the breakdown oil must have flowed through it and split it, from somewhere? And spilt hot oil onto the block.

From what you've all said in your posts, do I correctly assume, that it came from the sump being pressurised??

The V&A guy is fairly sure it's HGF.
And is coming back next weekend for a proper look, when I've jacked the car up for him.

Sooooooooooooo,

If it's definately HGF. What is the best to replace it with and where from??
What exactly do we need to get in total?
An idea from you guys, would be most welcome, please.

I can't help wondering, that, as we have only had the car about 6 months and when we bought it, we were told, it had not long had a new gasket done, WHY, has it gone again, so soon??????????
Not like it's even been on a long journey yet, just driven around town and to and from work.

Regards, Debbie.

If it was me I would take the head off before buying any more parts. If there really is no compression at all then for all you know the liners could have broken up or something equally terminal. Hope it is repairable but with the head off you can find out exactly what has happened and hopefully save money.

Mike

[SD1too]

Mike,

The head will be removed anyway to replace the head gasket. :D

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

thanks for both replies, Chrissyboy.
This forum is indeed very helpful.

As I said, my VAG mechanic guy is coming back next Sunday to assess if it's HGF. His dad, also a friend, is an engineer who has the tools and equipment to do any skimming that may be required.

I can't remember for the life of god if the fan was still running when the engine stalled. But I never mentioned that the heater was blowing only cold air, even on full heat, a few days prior to the breakdown.
Does this have any bearing on proving it's the head gasket?

Any ideas on the breakdown / cost of all these parts you mention? Where to get them? Availability? Etc... We saw somewhere that the Land Rover gasket was the one to be fitted. Is this the same as the MLS one you mention? Or is this MLS best?

What I read about the inertia switch is that it cuts the fuel off in the event of a collision for safety reason. At this stage, the lights stay on, the horn sounds and also the wipers come on.
Nothing of the sort happened to me that fateful day... Or does this mean that in the case of the ECM detecting the low oil pressure, these features are not activated as it is not a collision?
Should I press it anyway? Does it reset itself?
Both the handbook and the Haynes say that you have to remopve the glovebox in order to access it. I did this the other day when I was checking the relays, then noticed there may be room enough.
It's pretty tight, but it's possible to access the inertia switch by just unlocking the footwell cover and then slide your right hand to "feel" the switch and press it.
Just a tip for you guys out there I thought I'd mention...

Regards,
Marc

[T-Cut]

Things are now sounding better.

The latest HGF fix from Xpart seems to be the way to go. Here's two separate reports on the subject.

Honest John: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/parts-and-accessories/2010-08/xpart-helps-keep-mg-rovers-going

Motor Industry Association: http://www.the-mia.com/XPart-provides-Caterham-owners-with--ultimate-fix--for-K-series-engine

TC

[SD1too]

Hi Marc,

Any ideas on the breakdown / cost of all these parts you mention? Where to get them? Availability?
Sterling Automotive Marc, near you, as described in my recent post above. This company is mentioned in the first link that T-Cut has provided.

Simon.

[chrissyboy]

thanks for both replies, Chrissyboy.
This forum is indeed very helpful.

As I said, my VAG mechanic guy is coming back next Sunday to assess if it's HGF. His dad, also a friend, is an engineer who has the tools and equipment to do any skimming that may be required.

I can't remember for the life of god if the fan was still running when the engine stalled. But I never mentioned that the heater was blowing only cold air, even on full heat, a few days prior to the breakdown.
Does this have any bearing on proving it's the head gasket?

Any ideas on the breakdown / cost of all these parts you mention? Where to get them? Availability? Etc... We saw somewhere that the Land Rover gasket was the one to be fitted. Is this the same as the MLS one you mention? Or is this MLS best?

What I read about the inertia switch is that it cuts the fuel off in the event of a collision for safety reason. At this stage, the lights stay on, the horn sounds and also the wipers come on.
Nothing of the sort happened to me that fateful day... Or does this mean that in the case of the ECM detecting the low oil pressure, these features are not activated as it is not a collision?
Should I press it anyway? Does it reset itself?
Both the handbook and the Haynes say that you have to remopve the glovebox in order to access it. I did this the other day when I was checking the relays, then noticed there may be room enough.
It's pretty tight, but it's possible to access the inertia switch by just unlocking the footwell cover and then slide your right hand to "feel" the switch and press it.
Just a tip for you guys out there I thought I'd mention...

Regards,
Marc
it has been known the inertia switch shuts off for no reason . i cant for the life of me understand why its not starting,even low compression i have had cars that ran ,as i said my 18t was running well even with hgf ,,,yes your right you can reach in and press it ,oh well , i think you would be looin g at around £160/£180 for the head gasket bits your need and about £35 for the water pump and if you add anew belt another thirty odd pound .,it is possible that the head needed a skim but wasnt done so allowing the the gsket to lift ... seems with the friends around you you will be able to have it sorted between them,

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys.
Many thanks for all your posts and the links about the MLS gasket.
Defo, seems the way to go. Once we've costed it out.

By the way, we bought the car privately and have no paperwork concerning the head gasket replacement.
So, I guess that's open to interpretation!!!!!!!

I was thinking on Saturday, (mechanic is coming over on Sunday), that Marc should take off the cam cover and see what he can find. May help in the diagnosis???
And may be attend to the inertia switch????????????

Off to watch Top Gear now! I can dream!!
Regards, Debbie.

[goldievvc]

i`m just heading out debbie, so will make this fairly quick and maybe update later.

mike is right, do not buy anything else until you know for sure what exactly the problem is. yes the head has to come of no matter what, but if it is a pile of scrap in there, there`s no point sitting with a pile of scrap and a shiney head gasket kit. pressurising the sump isn`t that common despite the amount of headgaskets the k series go through. you should look carefully at the liners if this is what has happened. they can be difficult to spot, and i must admit - i`ve done my own gasket to later find it had a cracked liner. also if you have indeed almost run out of oil, that turbo will be one of the first things to give up the ghost so think on that aswell.

as for gaskets going, i have recently bought a few cars simply due to there price and them needing repair. 2 75`s, an mg zs and an mgtf. every single one had been worked on by a garage of some sort, and every single one was a shambles. the one with the £1000 receipt for a turbo, hadn`t even the original or replacement bolts in the manifold! it instead had a 3 inch bolts with umpteen washers fitted. to charge that amount of money and provide a poor service is all to common i`m afraid. you may well find it has had a repair but using substandard parts and substandard workmanship. substandard is perhaps harsh, as the parts have obviously passed a standard, but anyone worth there salt knows a landrover mls gasket is the only way to go (ish! read on)

as said, basically at an absolute minimum, buy a landrover mls gasket and a set of 10 head bolts again from landrover. the gasket is second to none and is the one that many tuners including JUDD use on there race builds. if however the liners have dropped slightly, which folk will tell you is common but i haven`t came across yet, the older style rover gasket with red/orange rubber should be used. the new bolts are modified - higher tensile. this is the minimum to use. an uprated oil ladder is available, but not necessary in all honesty. water pump will cost you £26 from ebay and is genuine rover, i`ll post a link later. i can dig out part numbers etc for you after you find out exactly how bad things are, perhaps even post stuff to you - i am a landrover tech.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Goldievvc
Thankyou for your post.
I'll get Marc to read it all.
The mechanic that is coming over on Sunday, is not actually going to do anything to the car. He is going to look at everything, (hopefully), to see if it's worth repairing or not.
And it's going to depend on the cost of everything as to if it's viable.
Which is why I wanted an idea of which other parts should be replaced at the same time, whilst it's stripped down.
Until then, we won't be buying any parts. But I want to know the price of the MLS gasket.
I've been on the x part website and sterling Automotive for their contact details.
I'm an avid Ebayer and know I can get the water pump from there.
But again, won't buy anything until after the diagnosis on Sunday.

It had, had a recent MOT when we bought the car!

It is just so annoying to have this lovely car, taxed and insured and just sitting there! We were hoping to be able to keep it for a good few years.
So, am really hoping it's repairable!

Am a bit confused though!! Is the Landrover MLS gasket, the same as the Rover 75 K series MLS gasket, as the links I looked at???
Would be a bit concerned about using the old type of gasket you mention?? Might not that be more prone to go again?

I realise, we don't know what we are going to find until we have a good look at it!

What would be really helpful, is if someone could write me a check list for the mechanic on Sunday.
My concern is, that he doesn't know about Rovers!!

So far, we are looking at:
Head gasket.
Liners.
Turbo.
Pistons.
Take off Cam cover.
Reset, inertia switch.
Anything else please?????????

Thanks again. Regards, Debbie.

[COLVERT]

Debbie. As your mechanic is not familiar with Rovers tell him that once the head comes off you CANNOT rotate the crankshaft !!!!
He might try and think it has seized.
The pressure from the head bolts keeps the block straight. The block distorts with bolts out.
Goes straight when they are replaced.


Colvert. :D

[T-Cut]

And if he does manage to turn the crank, the liners may be lifted from the block. That alone doubles the repair work.
The crank should be rotated to the 'safe' position before removing the head. Your local library probably has a Haynes manual. Worth borrowing for backup, or buy one from any motoring shop.

TC

[debbiefudge]

Cheers for the advice!

I am concerned that he doesn't know Rovers, if I'm totally honest!
And panicking about the whole thing really.

We have a Haynes and a Rover repair/service CD.

I'm trying to read as much on line about everything.
I emailed Sterling Automotive and got a price for the Head Gasket.
Price didn't include bolts or water pump though and it's not cheap!

I've seen them advertised on Ebay, car specific and much cheaper.
Would this be a bad route to go down????????

I don't want to cut corners, but money is an issue.
And there seems to be so much to get.
Plus his labour of course.

Regards, Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

the cost of head gasket with all the parts should be no more than £450 ,some say it is best to fit a uprated oil rail but in my own reseach i have found that it is not the case ,but each to their own on that .the pump is always included with any head gasket work .i have heard of quotes of £700 for this job but that is laughable ,any way hope come sunday you will have a clearer picture of what really is the problem
good luck with it

[Telferstr]

Debbiefudge,
I have been reading about your problems and am indeed sorry to read about your situation.
Please have a read of the link www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=35570 Read item 4 down which gives some details on the things to look out for. The top edge of the cylinder liners height in relation to the top of the cylinder block face is very important to ensure a successful repair. If they are found to be below the Block surface then a new head gasket would not last very long. They need to be at least flush with the Block surface or 3 to 4 thousands of an inch above. As said in other posts carefully check the condition of the Liners to ensure there are no cracks in them. If turning the engine once the Cylinder Head is off ensure the Liners are held in place by temporary made up clamps so they do not move. The bottom half of these liners are in direct contact with the Coolant and there is a Hylomar type sealant at their base which if disturbed will unseal and allow water to pass into the engine oil and therefore the liners would have to be removed and refitted with new sealant being applied.
Anyway have a read of the link above and I hope it is of assistance to you.
I realise that you are far from happy with your purchase at the moment, but the 75 is a great car and I believe really worth your while in trying to overcome the engine problem you have at present. Having it repaired, along with a high standard of workmanship, there is no reason why you should not be able to enjoy your purchase and have many miles enjoyable and happy motoring in the future.
Regards,
Telfer.

[sikelsh]

Cheers for the advice!
I emailed Sterling Automotive and got a price for the Head Gasket.
Price didn't include bolts or water pump though and it's not cheap!


Hi Debbie,

Join the AA Breakdown repair cover scheme, depending on your car age and mileage will depend on the cost, but I think the max is £20 per month.

http://www.theaa.com/breakdownrepaircover/

Clearly don't mention you have troubles, then wait 14 days as this is the cooling period, call them out and then get it recovered to a garage, or someone who is VAT registered and they will pay up to £475 towards the repair of the car.

I know its not the most honest method, but needs must in this day and age.

Simon

[debbiefudge]

Hi.
Firstly, Many, many thanks Telfer for all your very helpful advice and the link you sent. Have read it all and we are going to print it all off for the mechanic.
I can't express enough how helpful all this advice is and am very grateful.
Don't know what we would do without you all!!

She is a beautiful car, and I would hate to have to part with her!
We call her, 'Silver Lady'!!

Simon (Sikelsh). Hi. Yes, I can see the merits of what you are saying!
However, as we don't have a garage any where near us, that deals with Rovers, this would be a big risk. To take it to a Garage, that doesn't know their stuff, could mean they would f**k it up and make it worse. Given all the stuff that we have read, that is particular to Rovers.
We could ALSO, be presented with a bill, well over a £1,000. So we wouldn't be any better off, than getting the parts ourselves and paying 'our' mechanic.
This is a 'learning curve' for us all.
He is young and will, I am sure, absorb all the information. He really 'knows his stuff'. It's just he seems to have worked on every car except the Rover 75!!

Thanks again, Regards, Debbie.

[Alan.F]

Hi Debbie dont pay expensive XPart prices ebay is a great source of new parts for them i used this headgasket set on an MGZS 1.8 and the car has done 20000 miles since with no problems and you get everything you need

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-MGZR-MGZS-MGTF-MGF-16V-K-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-/110139180161?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a4ce8481
(http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-25-45-1-4-1-6-1-8-16V-K-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-/110133262787?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a47439c3)

[stocktake]

i believe that this one is the correct one for the rover 75
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROVER-75-MGF-FREELANDER-16V-K-HEAD-GASKET-SET-BOLTS-/110126814073?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19a411d379

Noooooooooooo ........

That appears to be the WRONG one :( lower down in the ad it states they do also sell the uprated gasket that would be the correct one!

[SMC Trading]

Noooooooooooo ........

That appears to be the WRONG one :( lower down in the ad it states they do also sell the uprated gasket that would be the correct one!

Agreed, that is the old style gasket :o

[SD1too]

Debbie & Marc,

The last four posts illustrate why you need to know what you're doing when buying from e-bay. The last thing you want now is to end up with the wrong parts and having to pay return carriage and start all over again.

Simon.

[SMC Trading]

Debbie & Marc,

The last four posts illustrate why you need to know what you're doing when buying from e-bay. The last thing you want now is to end up with the wrong parts and having to pay return carriage and start all over again.

Simon.

I also feel they are being pulled in so many directions. perhaps it would be better if only "official" the tech team offered advice on this thread to save confusion

[Telferstr]

Hi Debbie and Marc.
The Modification Cylinder Head Kit, Part No. ZUA000080 contains the correct MLS Head Gasket, Cylinder Head Shim and the Modified/Uprated Oil Feed Ladder Rail. So if you use this Kit with the above given Part No., you will get the correct Gaskets etc.
The Gasket for the Inlet Manifold, which is not part of the above Kit, has been updated again from the one mentioned in my posts to Hax, and has been upgraded further and I believe is now Dark Green in colour. Xpart should be able to give you the correct information on this.
As a further development, and again check this with Xpart, the K Series Engine which you have, has been further developed and is now known as the N Series. Some of the improvements can be used on the K Type engines and Xpart could advise you if there is anything you could use instead of the Kit ZUA000080. However this may complicate things for you, and maybe it is best to stick with the MG Rover/Land Rover modification, as it has been very successful in overcoming the Head Gasket problem.
A high standard of workmanship is required, i.e. No short cuts, adhering to all tolerances and torque setting etc.along with absolute cleanliness during the carrying out the repair.
I appreciate it can be tempting to try and obtain items at a competitive price, but it is important that you obtain genuine items when carrying out this repair for it to be fully successful and of long term duration.
Hope I haven't go on too much but I'm anxious that you end up with a high standard and a good sound repair.
Regards,
Telfer.

[chrissyboy]

Noooooooooooo ........

That appears to be the WRONG one :( lower down in the ad it states they do also sell the uprated gasket that would be the correct one!


yeap sorry i posted the wrong link ,i just see it was for the rover 75 and shoul of seen it isnt the uprated one .. i knew i should of gone to spec savers :D

[baughurst]

Hi Debbie and Marc.
The Modification Cylinder Head Kit, Part No. ZUA000080 contains the correct MLS Head Gasket, Cylinder Head Shim and the Modified/Uprated Oil Feed Ladder Rail. So if you use this Kit with the above given Part No., you will get the correct Gaskets etc.
The Gasket for the Inlet Manifold, which is not part of the above Kit, has been updated again from the one mentioned in my posts to Hax, and has been upgraded further and I believe is now Dark Green in colour. Xpart should be able to give you the correct information on this.
As a further development, and again check this with Xpart, the K Series Engine which you have, has been further developed and is now known as the N Series. Some of the improvements can be used on the K Type engines and Xpart could advise you if there is anything you could use instead of the Kit ZUA000080. However this may complicate things for you, and maybe it is best to stick with the MG Rover/Land Rover modification, as it has been very successful in overcoming the Head Gasket problem.
A high standard of workmanship is required, i.e. No short cuts, adhering to all tolerances and torque setting etc.along with absolute cleanliness during the carrying out the repair.
I appreciate it can be tempting to try and obtain items at a competitive price, but it is important that you obtain genuine items when carrying out this repair for it to be fully successful and of long term duration.
Hope I haven't go on too much but I'm anxious that you end up with a high standard and a good sound repair.
Regards,
Telfer.



Good post. Whatever you do, DO NOT buy cheap head gasket kits on ebay. OK guys, shoot me down in flames but the job is worth spending the right money on, it's NOT a time to cut corners and save a few bob here and there.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys,
I know Ebay can be a minefield for some. But I'm a big fan.
But have no intention of buying something too cheap to get the job done!
I've done lots of searches for the correct one and this is the one I've found, that I think is suitable:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330521209562&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
So, your input and opinion would be most welcome.
Thanks. Debbie and Marc.

[SMC Trading]

Hi Guys,
I know Ebay can be a minefield for some. But I'm a big fan.
But have no intention of buying something too cheap to get the job done!
I've done lots of searches for the correct one and this is the one I've found, that I think is suitable:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330521209562&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
So, your input and opinion would be most welcome.
Thanks. Debbie and Marc.

That will pretty much do the job once you have confirmed the head has to come off

[debbiefudge]

SMC Trading.
Do we need cam carrier sealant (A21) In your shop???

I'm going to need a complete list of everything!!
Once we have a diagnosis!

I want to be able to order EVERYTHING we are going to need, on Sunday, if possible, or Monday morning.
As we are hoping that it is repairable and I don't want to miss anything out and hopefully he can come back the following weekend to actually do the job. (fingers crossed). So, I'll only have a week to get everything delivered.
Also, of course, to cost everything out, as well.
Thankyou. Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Guys. Can you check this part out as well please?
I've double checked it's for the 1,8 Turbo.
Thanks, Debbie.




http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230548741157&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[SMC Trading]

One other thing many people overlook, you need a special sealant (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rover-75-MGF-K-Series-Engine-Cam-Carrier-Sealant-A21-/110635330257?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19c2612ad1) between the head and cam carrier, most people use the incorrect one and after time it leaks, PM me your details and I'll get some to you FOC ;)

[marinabrian]

One other thing many people overlook, you need a special sealant (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rover-75-MGF-K-Series-Engine-Cam-Carrier-Sealant-A21-/110635330257?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19c2612ad1) between the head and cam carrier, most people use the incorrect one and after time it leaks, PM me your details and I'll get some to you FOC ;)

Special sealant? pray tell Les, I'm all ears.
I've always used Stag Wellseal to good effect, but have been condemned in the past for recommending this with the accusation, "it will clog up the oilways", of course any anerobic sealant applied incorrectly will do the same.
On a different note however, you have 75 speedos listed in your shop, I was wondering assuming when coding these to the vehicle with T4, you are given the opportunity to input the current mileage, as shown by the original speedo, or indeed if you have to start at zero?.
Cheers
Brian.

[SMC Trading]

Special sealant? pray tell Les, I'm all ears.
Cheers
Brian.

Click on the link in my last post for details, by the way are you the same marinabrian who used to buy from us on eBay years ago?

[marinabrian]

Click on the link in my last post for details, by the way are you the same marinabrian who used to buy from us on eBay years ago?

Yes I am the one and same, my dad visited you some moons ago to pick up a marina wing!. This is what my other enquiry was about
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rover-75-BRAND-NEW-Instrument-Pack-Message-Centre-A21-/130254334478?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e53c36a0e#ht_1594wt_762
I would be interested in one of these as an upgrade to my original speedo, but only if I can retain the mileage if you see what I mean.
Cheers
Brian.

[SMC Trading]

Yes I am the one and same, my dad visited you some moons ago to pick up a marina wing!. This is what my other enquiry was about
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rover-75-BRAND-NEW-Instrument-Pack-Message-Centre-A21-/130254334478?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e53c36a0e#ht_1594wt_762
I would be interested in one of these as an upgrade to my original speedo, but only if I can retain the mileage if you see what I mean.
Cheers
Brian.

We have to keep this thread on topic Brian so will continue this by PM ;)

[debbiefudge]

Hi all.
Hope you are not all getting too bored!!!!!
Really would appreciate your feedback on the Ebay parts I've asked about and a list of any thing else needed please.
Now, I know about the sealant required.
We've emailed the mechanic all the vital information you have given us.
Many Thanks.
Debbie.

[stocktake]

Hi all.
Hope you are not all getting too bored!!!!!
Really would appreciate your feedback on the Ebay parts I've asked about and a list of any thing else needed please.
Now, I know about the sealant required.
We've emailed the mechanic all the vital information you have given us.
Many Thanks.
Debbie.

You will not go wrong with anything this member recommends Debbie ;)

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=664665&postcount=99

[sikelsh]

Saw this chap advertising on Facebook, and thought of your troubles.

Just incase its needed as he seems to be in sussex

http://www.mjsautoandmarine.co.uk/pricelist.htm

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Thankyou very much, Sikelsh for that info.
I've emailed the guy for a quote.
So, we shall see what he says.
His prices seem good and he is very experienced with Rovers.
Think she needs a full service done as well.
Marc has just told me the MOT is due in March!!!!!!!

Thanks again. Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi all.
Just thought I'd give you all an update!
We have decided to cancel the mechanic who was due to come over today and look at the car.
My CONCERN has been, that although he's a very good mechanic, he does not know about the Rover 75. Having read all the advice you have given us on here, it has made me panic and get stressed out!

We've instead been in touch with Mike, of MJS mobile repair, whom Silkelsh sent details off. He knows these cars inside out and has given us a really good quote, that includes all the parts. And as the MOT is due next month, we are going to have a full service also done.

Even though we may have to wait until he can fit us in, I feel this is the right thing to do. He's based in Worthing which is not far from us.

I've now subscribed to the forum. There is such a really lot of very useful information on here!! I spend ages reading about all sorts!!

So, once again, many thanks. Debbie & Marc.

[stocktake]

We've instead been in touch with Mike, of MJS mobile repair, whom Silkelsh sent details off. He knows these cars inside out and has given us a really good quote, that includes all the parts. And as the MOT is due next month, we are going to have a full service also done.

.

Hi Debbie and Marc, sorry I couldn;t help much with this one, 1.8 is not my forte :o However, if somebody has reccomended from here then you should be fine especially as the knows the 75/ZT inside out. :cool:

A personal recommendation from somebody who has had work done goes a long way :). Hopefully you will know more once MJS have checked the car over.
Good luck and do keep us informed :}

[sikelsh]

i would think again about who you get to check the car out ... a mechanic you have used before and you was happy with his work ,or someone on face book:confused: that you know nothing about .... use your guy

So let me get this right, you are recommending that Debbie use a chap who has said he is not familiar with Rovers but willing to give it a go, as apposed to a chap who has an entire business built around repairing Rovers, are you puddled?

[Telferstr]

Hi Debbie & Marc,
Things seem to be taking shape and after reading the MJS website it would appear that he is a very knowledgeable person.
My only question to him would be, does he fit the full Cylinder Head Modification Kit ZUA000080 which includes the Modified Oil Feed Ladder Rail???
It is important that this is fitted and would urge you to have this item included in the cost of your repair.
This modified Ladder Rail is of a much stronger construction, and was designed to help give the engine more rigidity by firming up the construction of the engine as a whole, and thereby improving the clamping effect on the Cylinder Head Gasket in the process.
He does state that he uses the MLS type gasket, but please ensure the whole of the modification is done.
Hope you soon have everything sorted out and that your 75 is back on the road for you to enjoy once again.
Regards,
Telfer

[stocktake]

how do you adjust the idle speed on a car that the ecm does it ????????????????????????????????


In his ad it does say, "if adjustment available" and as we know the ecu can be altered in the T4 menu to alter the idle speed ;) Quite obvious once you see the screen dumps available on here ;)

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys.
We have spoken to the mechanic from MJS, this morning.
We are having a full service done at the same time as the head gasket etc., repair. As MOT due next month.
And he has given us a good price.

Marc has dealt with him. I will get him to check about the full cylinder head modification kit. He tends not to ask the relevent questions sometimes!!! Which stress's me out!!! As I want it all done properly, so that a year down the line we are not having the same 'expensive problem'!

Even though the guy is very experienced with Rovers. And it's his business at the end of the day, I don't want any 'corners cut'.

I do have a question for you all, which I would appreciate your views on please???

Obviously, he is draining and changing the coolant when he is here.
Hopefully, for the red! At present, she has the blue in.
My understanding is that he will drain the old, quick flush and then put in the new???

I have read on this forum, somewhere?!
About the value of cleaning it all out with cheap coca cola or dish washer tablets and that it's a good idea to leave it in over night for best effect and then flush it all through untill clear before putting the red coolant in.
And that by doing this, it gets rid of all the sludge and old cr*p etc.
So, what do you think?

I have suggested to Marc that we do this, the day before the guy comes over. (He is coming Saturday morning). We have a big vaccum pump to remove the majority of it. Which I paid £50 for. For just this purpose.
But, Marc is having none of it!!!!! Says we don't need to do it.
I want to do, what is best for the car.
???????????????

[chrissyboy]

before spending all that money ,spend £10 on ebay for a vacuum gauge and follow the steps on this link .you may have a timing belt jumped a tooth hence no compression and no start ...
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm

if you have a snapped timing belt ,or the belt has jumped a tooth ,then this is the only conclusion for you not having any compression at all.

[debbiefudge]

Hi again.
We had a mechanic friend look at it 2 weeks ago, who confirmed it was HGF. I don't want him to do the work because he does not 'know Rovers'.
As laid out in previous posts.

Can I just add to my previous post and question please.

Another reason I want to use coca cola and leave overnight is that we have previously, used K seal, as a preventative, not as a cure.
And I understand we need to completely get rid of all that?

Whilst we have an extraction pump to remove the blue coolant and then the coca cola. I'm assuming we will need to bleed out all the muck and sludge, afterwards?

Am I correct in saying that there is a 8mm bleed screw in the steel tube that go's over the top of the clutch bell housing, in a boss welded to the pipe?????

Is there anything else, we should know please?

Regards, Debbie.

[SD1too]

Obviously, he is draining and changing the coolant when he is here.
Hopefully, for the red! At present, she has the blue in.
Debbie,

If you change from 'blue' ethylene glycol antifreeze to 'red' OAT you'll need to flush the system because the two don't mix. You know this already. So why make life complicated? Drain the 'blue' and refill with new 'blue'. :D It's just as good as the red stuff, but the additives don't last quite as long. Just change it every 4 years instead of five.
We have a big vacuum pump to remove the majority of it. Which I paid £50 for. For just this purpose.
But, Marc is having none of it!!!!! Says we don't need to do it.
I want to do, what is best for the car.
If you don't know when the antifreeze was last renewed then change it. Besides, if you've paid £50 for the pump then you've got to try it out haven't you?

Simon.

[chrissyboy]

Hi again.
We had a mechanic friend look at it 2 weeks ago, who confirmed it was HGF. I don't want him to do the work because he does not 'know Rovers'.
As laid out in previous posts.

Can I just add to my previous post and question please.

Another reason I want to use coca cola and leave overnight is that we have previously, used K seal, as a preventative, not as a cure.
And I understand we need to completely get rid of all that?

Whilst we have an extraction pump to remove the blue coolant and then the coca cola. I'm assuming we will need to bleed out all the muck and sludge, afterwards?

Am I correct in saying that there is a 8mm bleed screw in the steel tube that go's over the top of the clutch bell housing, in a boss welded to the pipe?????

Is there anything else, we should know please?

Regards, Debbie.

you will need to flush the system throughly to get rid of all the old muck in the system ,,the bleed nipple is on the rubber pipe in between the battery and the engine ,make sure it gets bled properly and no air is left in the system .. how did the guy diagnose hgf with a non runner engine ..only way i can think of is blowing air in the cylinder and seeing bubble in the header tank... did you get roud to doing a compression test again as you should sill get some sort of reading .. the link i posted is a handy way to check the engine and all is explianed how to do it ,,, i believ it cam related eiter belt of cam not moving opening valves thus no compression ,,, i hope it is his and not hgf .... get the guy to check the belt before he takes of the head off .......

[debbiefudge]

Hi again guys. Back again!

I'm defo not putting the blue coolant in. I want to change to the red as it's better for the car.

When the mechanic 'friend' came over 2 weeks ago and diagnosed HGF. He cranked the car and coolant was bubbling up out of header tank.

I asked Marc to contact the Rover mechanic today, to ask if he would be fitting the uprated head gasket with the oil ladder rail.
Was dismayed to hear he hadn't planned to fit the oil ladder rail, but would, if we got it. As he has no time to get it before he comes over on Saturday, to do the work. As he gets his parts from Unipart in Eastbourne.

Question now, is where to get it from???
I'd like to buy the whole kit really. God, I'm getting really stressed out about all this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every one I've looked at, doesn't seem to have the ladder rail included!

Any suggestions???????? Was going to try x part, but have nothing near us.
Regards, Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

Hi again guys. Back again!

I'm defo not putting the blue coolant in. I want to change to the red as it's better for the car.

When the mechanic 'friend' came over 2 weeks ago and diagnosed HGF. He cranked the car and coolant was bubbling up out of header tank.

I asked Marc to contact the Rover mechanic today, to ask if he would be fitting the uprated head gasket with the oil ladder rail.
Was dismayed to hear he hadn't planned to fit the oil ladder rail, but would, if we got it. As he has no time to get it before he comes over on Saturday, to do the work. As he gets his parts from Unipart in Eastbourne.

Question now, is where to get it from???
I'd like to buy the whole kit really. God, I'm getting really stressed out about all this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every one I've looked at, doesn't seem to have the ladder rail included!

Any suggestions???????? Was going to try x part, but have nothing near us.
Regards, Debbie.

when ever i use uni-part they always get what ever i want in for me so your branch should be able to get in for you .

[SMC Trading]

Hi again guys. Back again!

I'm defo not putting the blue coolant in. I want to change to the red as it's better for the car.

When the mechanic 'friend' came over 2 weeks ago and diagnosed HGF. He cranked the car and coolant was bubbling up out of header tank.

I asked Marc to contact the Rover mechanic today, to ask if he would be fitting the uprated head gasket with the oil ladder rail.
Was dismayed to hear he hadn't planned to fit the oil ladder rail, but would, if we got it. As he has no time to get it before he comes over on Saturday, to do the work. As he gets his parts from Unipart in Eastbourne.

Question now, is where to get it from???
I'd like to buy the whole kit really. God, I'm getting really stressed out about all this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Every one I've looked at, doesn't seem to have the ladder rail included!

Any suggestions???????? Was going to try x part, but have nothing near us.
Regards, Debbie.

As far as I am aware you cannot buy the modified ladder rail on its own, it comes in the kit with the head gasket, you can of course buy the gasket on its own, I'm going to be shot down in flames here but to be honest we have fitted about 5 or so of these gaskets without the ladder rail and had no reported problems, however, I am sure it would be better to fit one if you could, makes the job a lot bigger though as the sump has to come off etc.

[Telferstr]

Debbie & Marc,
Your nearest Xpart Dealers are Thwaites MOT and Service Center, Unit 1 William Street. Portslade, Brighton. West Sussex. 01273 430303.
Ron Young, Hoyle Road, Worthing. West Sussex. 01903 248062.
Lindfield Rover, 2, Bridge Road, Haywards Heath, West Sussex. 01444 484431.
Try these and see how you get on.
Have more on a list if you should need them.
Best try an Xpart Dealer as you should get the correct and genuine parts. Kit Part No. ZUA000080
Regards,
Telfer.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, many thanks for that.

Does anyone know the standard of work man ship at Twaites in Portslade or where I should ask the question please????????

[chrissyboy]

As far as I am aware you cannot buy the modified ladder rail on its own, it comes in the kit with the head gasket, you can of course buy the gasket on its own, I'm going to be shot down in flames here but to be honest we have fitted about 5 or so of these gaskets without the ladder rail and had no reported problems, however, I am sure it would be better to fit one if you could, makes the job a lot bigger though as the sump has to come off etc.

quite right ,you dont have to fit the uprated ladder rail. its ok les im used to being shot down :D
you are right is out of choice and all the top places say the same as long as all the rest has been done right then there would be no diffrence ... to be honest ,i was driving my guys nuts telling them to fit the mls gasket and new bolts and ladder rail when they did my gasket ....
2 weeks later they told me they just put a new gasket on it ,i thought they had done everything ... they told me ,by the way the guy that did it has been building engines for 30 years ,,,said ,as long as its flat and the torque has been done i the right order you will not have any problem ..as for the ladder he just laughed .....

[Telferstr]

quite right ,you dont have to fit the uprated ladder rail. its ok les im used to being shot down :D
you are right is out of choice and all the top places say the same as long as all the rest has been done right then there would be no diffrence ... to be honest ,i was driving my guys nuts telling them to fit the mls gasket and new bolts and ladder rail when they did my gasket ....
2 weeks later they told me they just put a new gasket on it ,i thought they had done everything ... they told me ,by the way the guy that did it has been building engines for 30 years ,,,said ,as long as its flat and the torque has been done i the right order you will not have any problem ..as for the ladder he just laughed .....

Chris,
Tell me,why do you think that MG Rover/Powertrain spent time, money and energy, with engineers devoting many many hours to thoroughly investigate the cause of head gasket failures in the more developed versions of the K Series Engine. Do you think it was just to pass the time of day? Of course it wasn't.
There was an inbuilt condition which though the overall concept was advanced and sound, there were items needing to be addressed as it was developed to do more work than originally intended by the designers. It became apparent, that some further strengthening of this fine engine unit was required.
This resulted in a great deal of engineering work and testing being done to allow this engine to be used with confidence in heavier applications than originally intended. Though the 75 application is on the lower edge of these heavier applications, it is wise to take full advantage of this development work, should the occasion arise, and therefore fit the modification kit available to strengthen an otherwise great design.
It makes absolute sense to do so and therefore, putting it the best way I can, it is bad advice to say otherwise.
I appreciate that successful repairs have been achieved without fitting this modification kit, but remember the 75 is a heavy car and therefore
moving towards the extra stresses that this extra weight may imposes on the engine structure. Hence my point on using the hard won development to the advantage of the end user like you, me or indeed Debbie and Marc or anyone else experiencing Cylinder Head Gasket failure with this unit.
Please think very carefully on the advice you are offering, be it with, and accepted as being with the very best of intentions, as you do I'm sure at all times.
Sorry to disagree with you on this point, but I do think using the modification kit is the best thing anyone can do if it is the owners intention to keep their car for a long period of time.
Regards,
Telfer.

[chrissyboy]

Chris,
Tell me,why do you think that MG Rover/Powertrain spent time, money and energy, with engineers devoting many many hours to thoroughly investigate the cause of head gasket failures in the more developed versions of the K Series Engine. Do you think it was just to pass the time of day? Of course it wasn't.
There was an inbuilt condition which though the overall concept was advanced and sound, there were items needing to be addressed as it was developed to do more work than originally intended by the designers. It became apparent, that some further strengthening of this fine engine unit was required.
This resulted in a great deal of engineering work and testing being done to allow this engine to be used with confidence in heavier applications than originally intended. Though the 75 application is on the lower edge of these heavier applications, it is wise to take full advantage of this development work, should the occasion arise, and therefore fit the modification kit available to strengthen an otherwise great design.
It makes absolute sense to do so and therefore, putting it the best way I can, it is bad advice to say otherwise.
I appreciate that successful repairs have been achieved without fitting this modification kit, but remember the 75 is a heavy car and therefore
moving towards the extra stresses that this extra weight may imposes on the engine structure. Hence my point on using the hard won development to the advantage of the end user like you, me or indeed Debbie and Marc or anyone else experiencing Cylinder Head Gasket failure with this unit.
Please think very carefully on the advice you are offering, be it with, and accepted as being with the very best of intentions, as you do I'm sure at all times.
Sorry to disagree with you on this point, but I do think using the modification kit is the best thing anyone can do if it is the owners intention to keep their car for a long period of time.
Regards,
Telfer.

i have not offered advise ,if you read what i said ,i answerewd les. in my own expirence and from the research i have done it is said more that the ladder is not a must to use ,and you can re use the bolts ., mine has been done with just a gasket and is sound ,,but that is due to the workman ship ..i hope to use my car for years to come ,,, you can use the uprated kit but do a bad job ,,and the kit is only as good as who is dong the job .like all repairs you dont just repair it ,you find out what made it go in the first place ..like i said i HAVE NOT GIVEN ADVICE,,just agreed with a respected members views ,,at the end of the day these are just cars so any good mechanic should be able to do a good job ...

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys. Thanks again for your advice.

On all the research I have done and having had an in depth chat with Patrick at Sterling Automotive, we are defo having the oil rail ladder fitted.

My concern has been on the quality of the parts being used for one thing.
And discovering that Mike of MJS, who is doing the repair on Saturday, uses parts from Unipart and has said he can't get the oil rail ladder in time for Saturday.
Whilst many of you may use Unipart, so shoot me down if you like! I want to use good quality parts.

Patrick at Sterling Automotive has given me a price for:
MLS head Gasket
Oil rail ladder
bolts
sump gasket
water pump
Total £361

Need to find price of timing/cam belt as yet.
May as well, get the whole lot from them.
Luckily, we don't have to pay postage, as their managing director lives up the road from us!! And will drop the parts off for us. Gonna sort it all today.

I feel much happier going this route, even though it may cost more, as Our original quote, included parts.
I've read about poor quality head gaskets going rusty. (Even the MLS).
So, quality does matter.
So, we have to get a new quote from Mike to include a full service, so she is ready for the MOT next month.

Also, been trying to find a review about Mike (MJS auto and marine).
Mananged to find one on the 'other forum'. And it was very good. So, feel happier about that now as well.

Have also ordered a plenum cover from Jules.
And will, when available, get Gerrys T Piece.

I did get a quote from Patrick at Sterling. It was about a grand with getting the car to them. I know they have a superb reputation but that's out of our league at this time. That doesn't include a full service either.

I don't know how many of you are aware that they are involved in the process of developing a coolant sensor. Which won't be cheap!!
When they do a HGF it is garanteed for 5 years.
But, that excludes the 75, at this time, it's only for 12 months.
Until this new coolant sensor is fitted and only then, will the garantee be 5 years, from the date of repair.
Seems unfair, and doesn't say this on their website. But, I have it, 'straight from the horses mouth'.

I'm not sure either, if the coolant sensor is a good idea??????????????
Surely, it's not that difficult to keep a regular eye on coolant levels??
Won't it make people lazy???

Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi all.

We have a new problem now!

Mike from MJS auto and Marine, rang us, this morning to say his van has broken down and he cannot come over to us now at the weekend as he has to fix it.

He also said, he has been on this forum and read all the posts and from what he has read he thinks the engine block might be warped. He didn't say what exactly has made him think that.

Condensed..... We had oil loss.
Air feed lead on top split and that's where the oil came out of. Pipe replaced.
The engine did not over heat, it wasn't running for that long.
We have had no coolant loss or any creamy stuff in the rad or on cap.
We've replaced the crankshaft sensor.
New, good quality battery. Fully recharged, now.
We have no undertray. There are no leaks.
No water leak.
We think the heater was cold, for a short while. (We hadn't used the car much, due to all the snow).
Fitted new O ring in fuel pump and fitted orange clip.
She won't start!

There is NO point in ordering new head gasket etc etc, at this point now.

I'm guessing the only way to know for sure, is to strip it down first.
A process, that is going to take longer now.
I am really p**ed off now!
Don't know what to do.

Have tried to research it. But not having much luck!!!!!!!

I'm also, wondering if we have PRT?
I understand the upper rad hose connects to T piece, downpipe go's to the PRT??

What I have found is the following:

If the engine got hot enough it could warp the head-- then the liners may well have sunk?

The blocks are specific for a turbo engine as they contain the oil feed or return for the turbo. It's in the lower sandwich plate?
Would need a new engine?

Never heard of a K series block cracking?

Before fitting new head gasket...the block & head should be tested for distortion, with a flat metal edge and run across the head?

Led to believe, you only get a warped head if there if there is low coolant level, caused by a leak?

Head will only need to be skimmed if it is warped or the old gasket has worn grooves in it?

I'm thinking over the weekend now, Marc should take the cam cover off.
Check the timing belt. Check the turbo. Check thermostat. Check expansion tank cap. (That it is black and says 140.).

What about the inertia switch?

Advice and help needed please.

Regards, Debbie.

[Mike Noc]

Debbie and Marc, as mentioned before best not to spend any more money until someone who knows these engines well has inspected it. You may have a failed head gasket but with oil loss at speed you could have other problems that would make a rebuild uneconomical.

It is difficult to give an accurate diagnosis without seeing the engine but oil loss plus no compression at all are very serious symptoms. Might be best to wait until your mechanic can get to see the car.


Mike

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Mike.
I know it's difficult to read through all these posts and questions.

But we did have an experienced mechanic look at it weeks ago and he diagnosed HGF.
We decided against letting him do the work, not because he wasn't a good mechanic, but that he had no experience with the Rover 75.
And we were given loads of advice on here that you have to do certain things with these cars, they you may not have to do with other cars. He works on Audi's I believe.
So, we got very nervous and on a link sent to us, we found Mike, a mobile mechanic who deals with the Rover 75. In our area.

We originally told him and I emailed him with all the details of what had happened with the car. But he now says he is concerned that the block may be warped.

I realise that is not going to be known untill the car is stripped down.

So, perhaps it needs a new engine?

At the moment, I feel like scrapping the car, I'm totally stressed and fed up!
Regards, Debbie.

[ianinfrance]

Hi, Mike.
I know it's difficult to read through all these posts and questions.

But we did have an experienced mechanic look at it weeks ago and he diagnosed HGF.
We decided against letting him do the work, not because he wasn't a good mechanic, but that he had no experience with the Rover 75.
And we were given loads of advice on here that you have to do certain things with these cars, they you may not have to do with other cars. He works on Audi's I believe.
So, we got very nervous and on a link sent to us, we found Mike, a mobile mechanic who deals with the Rover 75. In our area.

We originally told him and I emailed him with all the details of what had happened with the car. But he now says he is concerned that the block may be warped.

I realise that is not going to be known untill the car is stripped down.

So, perhaps it needs a new engine?

At the moment, I feel like scrapping the car, I'm totally stressed and fed up!
Regards, Debbie.

Hi Debbie I have been reading this and as I am no expert on this matter but you have answered your own question really.

Let the guy who you have checked out come and give you his considered verdict.
He should be able to guide you through your options and hopefully some idea of costs for each option.

I do know of soneome who posts occasionally on here who knows these cars inside out so if no joy from your guy come back and I will see if he will give you some guidance.

It's the not knowing that's the worst! Your guy will give you the answers I'm sure. Can't promise that you'll like them though!

good luck. Ian

[SD1too]

Mike from MJS auto and Marine rang us this morning to say his van has broken down ... He also said ... he thinks the engine block might be warped. He didn't say what exactly has made him think that.
At the moment, I feel like scrapping the car, I'm totally stressed and fed up!
Oh dear. :( You are having a time of it; I'm so sorry to hear that you've been dealt another disappointing blow. I think the sentence I've highlighted in red is very significant, if you know what I mean.

As I've said before, I think you should use Sterling Automotive. They seem to be seriously interested in K series HGF, have premises and you have already been in touch with their MD. Ignore scare stories about warped blocks which are not supported by logical argument and sound evidence. I don't think any of the 1.8 forum experts have warned of this problem. I know that you have a tight budget (don't we all), but see if you can agree a figure with Sterling for the work you want to be done. Concentrate on the HGF; leave all the other non-essential stuff until later. Don't try to do too much at once; that's what's stressing you! If this repair is done properly, you'll have many years of comfortable Rover 75 motoring ahead. :D

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, we have texted him to ask what makes him think the head might be warped.

That IS VERY INTERESTING, what you say about the warping in these engines???????????????????
If he knows them so well, why would he say that then???????????
May be, he just doesn't want to do the job??????????

I know about Sterling and have had a long chat with Patrick.
A grand is a lot of money for us right now. It couldn't have come at a worse time.
And that is just for the head gasket, sump gasket, water pump etc.
And getting the car there.

It will then need a full service to get through the MOT next month.

Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Guys. An update.

I have just had a long conversation with Mike of MJS Auto & Marine repair.

Firstly, I am going to eat humble pie and unreservedly apolagise to him, for anything I may have said to upset him or bring his reputation in to disrepute.

He thought he was coming over to do a straight forward HGF.
He is now, going to come over and inspect the car and we will take it from there.

I had thought that when Marc first spoke to him, he had given him all the facts.
I found out when speaking to him. He was not aware of many issues, including that the car was a non starter or how it broke done in the first place! To name, just a couple.
He really is a very nice, helpful guy and loves these cars, it's clear and only wants to help. Can see how stressed I am getting about it all.
And said, it's his job to diagnose and fix it.
I now feel re assured. And even if we have to wait longer to get it fixed, it will be worth it.
It's clearly, a much bigger job than he anticipated.
I just hope we don't need a new engine! But there is no point worrying about that, until we know.

I'm going to deal with him, from now on. As he answered all my questions in a very clear way.

So, many thanks to you all.
I'm off now to slap Marc!!!

[SD1too]

Debbie,

Just to clarify a few things before Mike's visit.

... to ask what makes him think the head might be warped.
You posted that it was the engine block which he'd recently mentioned as possibly warped. That's a very difficult kettle of fish to the head. Be careful not to confuse the two.
A grand is a lot of money for us right now.
And that is just for the head gasket, sump gasket, water pump etc.
If you want to save some money you don't have to replace the water pump. As they say: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." It was recommended only as a precautionary measure, not as an essential.
It will then need a full service to get through the MOT next month.
Why? If the head gasket repair is successful, you could just put it in for an MOT and see what happens. If it passes; great! If it fails; fix whatever is responsible for the failure. This will help until your finances recover.

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Simon,

Many thanks for your post.

Having spoken to Mike last night, I now know that Marc had confused the head with the block.

He's French!
I did give him a slap!!
And he admitted he was at fault, for not having given Mike all the relevant info.
This is what has caused all the confusion.

Going to leave it up to Mike, as to what needs replacing.

I understand what you are saying about the service.
But whilst he is here, he may as well do it.
It's for my peace of mind, so I know it will pass the MOT and that the car is in tip top condition.

We havn't had the car long and we have no service records for the car, it was a private sale.


The only thing we have to decide on now, is the oil rail ladder.
There seems to be a 50/50 camp on this.

I had a long chat with Mike about this and he fully explained where it go's and he doesn't feel there is any benefit in fitting it.

Regards, Debbie

[Telferstr]

Hi Debbie,
Re the Oil Feed Ladder Rail. All I would say is, if it were mine, the Modified Oil Feed Ladder Rail would definitely be fitted.
I'll say no more on the subject but sincerely hope you have your car returned to good health very very soon.
Take good care.
Regards,
Telfer.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Telfer,

Thankyou for your reply.

Mike is coming over next Wednesday to actually look at what is wrong with the car. And we have booked him for the actual job to be done at the end of the month.

So, we have plenty of time to order the parts needed.

I have read and read so much about the oil rail ladder, I really don't know what to do!!!!!!!!

Can I ask a new question please?

I've read about the timing belt and cam belt. Lots of people say, they are the same thing????
Which is very confusing!! Because I thought they went in different places on the car???
Should they both be replaced at the time of doing the head gasket??

In case we have the scenerio of having to have a new engine, where is the best place to get one from????

There are a few on Ebay at the moment.

Want one from a 2003 ideally and with the same or less milage than we presently have.

I keep looking at the price that these cars are being sold for. (The same as ours). To try and judge if it would be worth putting a new engine in. Or, if we should scrap the car if it does need a new engine. Or, try to sell it off cheap for parts. (It's not an option for us to strip it. We don't have a garage).

It's not going to be cheap to A. Buy another engine and B. How much will it cost to have it fitted? And you don't know what you are taking on with another engine.

I just want to cover the different options.

Regards, Debbie.

[Telferstr]

Hi Debbie,
That's good that Mike is organised and the repair is taking place soon. I would wait now for him to make his assessment on the engine etc.
From the description of the actual failure the temperature gauge did not indicate an excessive overheat situation so maybe things will not be too bad.
With regard to your question re Cam/Timing Belt they are one and the same as far as your car/engine is concerned.
If you do not know when this belt was last changed it would be wise to have it replaced along with the Tensioner at the time of the repair. The schedule for changing the Timing Belt is every 90,000miles or every 6 years, which ever comes round first. On an age bases it is perhaps overdue to be changed, if it has not been done already, that is. By changing it now, you at least know where you stand and it will give peace of mind knowing it has been done.
With regard to finding a replacement engine, lets wait for Mike's opinion on the condition of the engine and then decide what is best to do then.
In the meantime keep your chin up and relax a bit, as from reading Mike's website he does seem to have in-depth knowledge of the 1.8 K Series engine and you should be in safe hands.
Regards,
Telfer.

[SD1too]

:iagree: :wot:

Debbie,

This advice from Telfer is spot-on.

Just to add that Mike will have to remove your timing/cam belt as part of the head gasket investigation, so it's not exactly a separate job if you see what I mean. Fitting a new belt in these circumstances is a wise move and shouldn't add to the cost too much.

By the way, you should pat yourself on the back for your determination and persistence with this. :clap:

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Many thanks again for your replies.

It does make sence to change the timing belt at the same time, as we have no idea when it was done. Even though it adds to the cost. Again it's, peace of mind to know it's been done.

I really don't know if the over heated or not. Marc had only been driving for about 15 minutes.
I've read that the temperature guage doesn't move any way until it gets to over 115 degrees?

I've read that the water pump is 'cam belt' driven. Which is what led me to believe there is a timing belt and a cam belt??????
And if we are changing the water pump then we'd need both?????

Now been reading about the PRT!!!!

Have been in touch with Gerry and he is making us a "Gerry T".
Hopefully it will be ready at the end of the month, so that can be fitted at the same time.

Also read that you only get a warped head if there is low coolant level, caused by a leak.
Our coolant level has always been at the correct level. No leaks at all, so am keeping fingers crossed!

Marc put the recharged battery (brand new) in yesterday, ready for Mike.
He pressed the inertia switch. No difference, she still just coughed.

It's annoying we have no service records for the car. Only the last garage bill, that was done before the last MOT.

I have a VERY STRONG feeling that the previous owners drove her with 'little petrol' in.
And wonder if that would have caused any damage???
I've read these cars should always have, at least, half a tank of petrol?

I just want to educate myself on the car. I know it could be said, I shouldn't keep reading things! Just looking for answers!!!!!!

Should map sensor be checked and cleaned?
Should coil pack and HT sensor leads be checked?
Inlet manifold?
Should torbo be checked?
PRT thermostat?

Would any of these, stop her from starting though?

Also, found there are 2 different head gaskets!!!!!!
More confusion!!
ZUA000530 and ZUA000080. Bit of a difference in price. Looked at them on Rimmers. Spoke to Patrick at Sterling about the difference.

Still don't know about the oil ladder though!!!!!!!

Regards, Debbie

[SD1too]

Debbie, STOP!
You'll end up with a nervous breakdown. :cry:
Remember what Telfer said:
I would wait now for him to make his assessment on the engine etc.

Then we'll have a discussion. :grouphug:

Simon.

[celicaman]

Wow...what an interesting thread, its like reading a good book I cant wait for the outcome, though I pick my 1.8T up on monday and I really hope I don`t get the headaches youve had Debbie I`t comes with a 3month warranty with an option to extend and after reading this I think I will. I can`t believe how determined you`ve been to sort this good luck I hope everything works out .

Mike

[debbiefudge]

Hi Simon, I know, I know, I'm like a dog with a bone!!
Probably, part of my Bipolar!!
Never the less, it's really interesting, everything I'm finding out!

Hi Mike, I hope you enjoy your new car. Is it your first Rover 75?
Yes, may well be a good idea to extend the warranty! But check well, what it actually covers?

Regards, Debbie

[debbiefudge]

Hi.

Hope, Mike, that you are pleased with your new car?

I'm getting nervous about tomorrow!!

But, we have decided. we want the oil rail ladder.
It just makes sence. And why make it, if it is not of benefit to the car.

So, if it is HGF.
We'l need, MLS gasket, with oil ladder. new bolts, new water pump, new sump gasket, new timing belt????????

I'll let you know, what the diagnosis is, once Mike has been.

Regards, Debbie.

[SD1too]

Don't forget the antifreeze plus engine oil and filter. :D

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Thanks.

We have the oil, new oil filter and red anti freeze

Regards Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, just wanted to ask a question?
Yes, I might be grasping at straws!!!!

I was reading another thread from someone in Finland and his car breaking down and not starting.

He said that his breather pipe had split due to the cold weather and had spat out oil.

Which is exactly how ours first went wrong, when we had the freezing weather and were snowed in. And then used the car for the first time.

He's talking about his camshaft oil seals. Do we have them on ours???
And the temperature sensor not working properly?

Oh well, just a thought!!

Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

Hi, just wanted to ask a question?
Yes, I might be grasping at straws!!!!

I was reading another thread from someone in Finland and his car breaking down and not starting.

He said that his breather pipe had split due to the cold weather and had spat out oil.

Which is exactly how ours first went wrong, when we had the freezing weather and were snowed in. And then used the car for the first time.

He's talking about his camshaft oil seals. Do we have them on ours???
And the temperature sensor not working properly?

Oh well, just a thought!!

Debbie.


your best to wait until the car has been looked at now ,then you will know what it is that is stopping it from starting and if you really do have a major problem

[debbiefudge]

Hi all,
We now have the diagnosis!
AND it's not good!

No. 4 piston has a hole in it.
Head gasket gone. Last one, fitted (by previous owner) fitted very badly.
Been skimmed.
Cylinder head warped.
Cam belt, 4 teeth off.

So, a disaster waiting to happen, basically!

We are going to have the work done, at the end of the month. Mike is going to get us a secondhand cylinder head.

He's really nice and very helpful.

So, there you go!

Regards, Debbie.

[Number 6]

Hi all,
We now have the diagnosis!
AND it's not good!

No. 4 piston has a hole in it.
Head gasket gone. Last one, fitted (by previous owner) fitted very badly.
Been skimmed.
Cylinder head warped.
Cam belt, 4 teeth off.

So, a disaster waiting to happen, basically!

We are going to have the work done, at the end of the month. Mike is going to get us a secondhand cylinder head.

He's really nice and very helpful.

So, there you go!

Regards, Debbie.


well I have been following this thread with interest,after a lot of speculation and debate you now know the problems with your car.

I hope you are now able to move forward and get the repairs done and hopefully you will have some trouble free motoring:}

[SD1too]

Mike is going to get us a secondhand cylinder head.
And a new no. 4 piston I hope! Has he given you a quote for that?

Simon.

[Martynp]

Sounds like the valves were gummed up, due to incorrect (cheap) engine oils being used in the engine, to explain the holed piston-----just a guess of course! Coupled with defective cambelt----

Anyway, hopefully you know the worst, can only get better from now on.
Good luck with the rebuild-----You certainly are a tryer, could call yourself a 1.8 specialist now!!

[debbiefudge]

Hi all, Thanks for your replies.

I'm very far from being a specialist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I AM enjoying trying to find out stuff about these cars!
Even though it's very daunting.

Yes, his quote includes the new piston.

That's interesting, what you say about cheap engine oil.
I would say, that is a distinct possability by the previous owner.

Our "Gerry T" piece has now arrived. So I am well pleased that we can fit that at the same time.
We also have the new fan resistor to put on.

We will be having a new timing belt also.

I'm still very confused about the timing belt and the cam belt????????
Being different, or one and the same thing?

Have to buy the oil rail ladder as that is not included in the quote.

I know, I'm going to have further questions, so I'll be back!

Want to check out about the thermostat and what type we have???

Regards, Debbie.

[SD1too]

That's interesting ... about cheap engine oil.
I'm not sure that engine oil can cause a holed piston. I'd say it's more likely to be related to engine timing and those mysterious missing teeth. Besides, I've used cheap engine oil (but always the correct spec.) in my classic Rover for 150,000 miles with no engine problems whatsoever. MG Rover specifies 10W40 meeting spec. ACEA A3 (this will be printed on the label) for your engine.

I'm still very confused about the timing belt and the cam belt????????
Being different, or one and the same thing?
One and the same thing Debbie.

I know, I'm going to have further questions, so I'll be back!
We're looking forward to it! :D

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi,
Many thanks for clearing up the timing belt/cam belt issue.
So, why are they called different things then?
That's just confusing to a novice!!

I understand that as we have the new "Gerry T" piece to fit, having established we have the right one.
That, this means we have a PRT.

I've been looking at the metal replacement, made by Kaiser???
Does he still make them, does any one know?
And is it a good idea to change it over?

When fitting the new T piece, do we need any new hoses that come from it? What should we check?
Obviously new hose clips.

As I've mentioned on here before, I want Marc to flush rad out, leaving coca cola in, over night and flush through, because we have used K Seal as a preventative.

What I forgot to say, when Mike came over, he asked for a watering can full of water. He said there wasn't a drop in it.
So, doesn't that indicate complete coolant loss?
Marc has maintained, that we had no coolant loss at all! Never found a leak any where.
So, am flumoxed about that one!!!

I'm worried if the radiator is ok, but I guess we'l know when the coca cola go's in???

I want to get a new expansion tank cap, any way.
I've read, they should be replaced on a regular basis.

Marc has the day off, for when the repair is done. He wants to learn, by watching the repair and Mike has said, he doesn't mind at all.
Hopefully, he will learn some things along the way.

When Mike came over he removed the head gasket etc., and there is just the warped head left at the moment.

So, whilst the car is in this state, is there any thing he check or look for, that won't be accessable once everything is restored???
Any tips, would be most welcome.

Regards, Debbie.

[SD1too]

Debbie,

Some answers for you:

Hi,
Many thanks for clearing up the timing belt/cam belt issue.
So, why are they called different things then?
I don't know! Some engines have a timing chain. They were never called cam chains. Then, when belts were introduced, the new term was coined. Perhaps when people talk about a belt, it might be confused with the alternator/water pump drive belt so it began to be called the 'cam belt', but I'm only guessing.

... this means we have a PRT.
I've been looking at the metal replacement, made by Kaiser???
And is it a good idea to change it over?
When fitting the new T piece, do we need any new hoses that come from it? What should we check?
An expert on the 1.8 cooling system will answer these for you, but I think that Kaiser's metal housing is only for the V6.

... when Mike came over, he asked for a watering can full of water. He said there wasn't a drop in it.
So, doesn't that indicate complete coolant loss? I'm worried if the radiator is ok ...
Probably not. The expansion tank may have been empty, but the only way to check for complete coolant loss is to drain the radiator and block. Your coolant loss is likely to be a result of the head gasket problem. There's no reason to suspect the radiator unless you can see evidence of a leak.

I want to get a new expansion tank cap, any way.
I've read, they should be replaced on a regular basis.
The expansion tank cap does not need to be replaced unless it malfunctions. It does not need to be replaced regularly.

I know that you're keen to get everything in tip-top shape, but I would concentrate on the piston, head gasket and timing belt at the moment. Get the engine running first then think about all the other things.

Simon.

[Parker]

The T Piece is made by member Gerry3 so message him and it is for the 1.8T and worth every penny over the plastic OEM part.

[debbiefudge]

Hi Parker.

I was asking about the metal PRT.

We have the new "Gerry T" piece, ready to fit on.

Patrick at Sterling, has told us you can't buy the oil rail ladder seperately.

Regards, Debbie.

[SMC Trading]

Hi Parker.

Patrick at Sterling, has told us you can't buy the oil rail ladder seperately.

Regards, Debbie.

Yes,

I mentioned that in my earlier post, it should have been bought as a full kit with the gasket set

[chrissyboy]

im sorry to hear it is so major ,but then again it was always going to be something like this as no starting or compression .. the bad is behind you from now on , i would sugest that as the engine is in such a state its best you have all the new bits now ,iwould also get new stretch bolt as the head is warp they would hold the torqe now so its a must fo new bolts ,along with new belt and tensioners water pump oil ladder and the mls gasket .thegood think after all the work is done tha you will know the engine is good and so your be able to look after it and the coolant system and enjoy many happy trouble free miles of motoring in the car .. ...

[debbiefudge]

Hi, we havn't bought ANY parts, as yet.
It was Mike who said he would provide all the parts, as part of our quote.
But that if we wanted the oil rail ladder, (Which we do). Then we could buy it seperately from Sterling, so, I emailed Patrick.
To be told, as said, that you can't buy it seperately.

Which, I must admit has left me rather confused.

We have said, that perhaps we should provide all the parts. Apart from a second hand head and he can charge us labour??

In which case, I need a list of what to buy.

The MLS gasket.
head bolts.
water pump.
Timing belt.
Piston
oil filter.
oil
red antifreeze.
new expansion tank cap

What else???

Sump gasket?
cam cover gasket?
inlet manifold gasket?

I'm at a loss here!!!

I found someone on one of the forums, who gave a link to Ebay.
Gaskets for classics. They do Rover K series MLS head gasket WITH the oil rail. VHSK16BNR £110. And it has all these 'extra bits' that the MLS ZUA000080 doesn't have.

I need to sort this as soon as possible.

Can anyone give me any answers to my post No. 157 as well please?

Many Thanks. Debbie.

[WillyHeckaslike]

I was asking about the metal PRT.The PRT is plastic. I think you might be confusing the PRT with the metal stat housing which Kaiser provides for the V6 engine.

Patrick at Sterling has told us you can't buy the oil rail ladder seperately.You can and I have. My understanding is that it is the Chinese one-part N-series gasket which is not sold separately and, given its ridiculously high price as a kit :eek: and the absence of any explanation as to why it is so much better than the standard two-part MLS gasket, I personally would not buy it. :shower:

[chrissyboy]

Hi, we havn't bought ANY parts, as yet.
It was Mike who said he would provide all the parts, as part of our quote.
But that if we wanted the oil rail ladder, (Which we do). Then we could buy it seperately from Sterling, so, I emailed Patrick.
To be told, as said, that you can't buy it seperately.

Which, I must admit has left me rather confused.

We have said, that perhaps we should provide all the parts. Apart from a second hand head and he can charge us labour??

In which case, I need a list of what to buy.

The MLS gasket.
head bolts.
water pump.
Timing belt.
Piston
oil filter.
oil
red antifreeze.
new expansion tank cap

What else???

Sump gasket?
cam cover gasket?
inlet manifold gasket?

I'm at a loss here!!!

I found someone on one of the forums, who gave a link to Ebay.
Gaskets for classics. They do Rover K series MLS head gasket WITH the oil rail. VHSK16BNR £110. And it has all these 'extra bits' that the MLS ZUA000080 doesn't have.

I need to sort this as soon as possible.

Can anyone give me any answers to my post No. 157 as well please?

Many Thanks. Debbie.

speak to one of the traders on here via pm to ask them all the bitsyou would need to fix the car .they will tell you exactly what you will need ...

[SD1too]

... if we wanted the oil rail ladder, (Which we do). Then we could buy it seperately from Sterling ... To be told ... that you can't buy it seperately.
MG Rover parts catalogue shows it:
"Rail - engine clamping and oil feed", part number LCN 100210, but please check this with X-part to be sure that it's correct for your turbocharged engine.
... we should provide all the parts. Apart from a second hand head ...
You also have the choice of having your existing head skimmed, or buying a new/remanufactured bare head from X-Part. The risk with a second-hand head is that it may have faults which are invisible.

Sump gasket?
cam cover gasket?
inlet manifold gasket?
Yes, all these, but as Chrissyboy says, why not take advice from SMC Trading who has contributed to your thread?

Simon.

[debbiefudge]

Hi, Thanks for clearing up about the PRT. Yes, I have got confused with the metal one!! Sorry!

Mike has refered me to Ebay for the oil ladder.
Item No. 330532445407
Part No. LCN000140L

Hope we will get our spark plugs back, as they were new and expensive!!

All, that's left in the car at the moment is the piston block!!!
So, she looks very sorry for herself!!

We are having to re-think buying the parts ourselves.
It's going to add about £400 on top of our quote, having got a quote from Patrick for all the parts.

We are stressed to say the least!

Debbie&Marc

[T-Cut]

Mike has refered me to Ebay for the oil ladder.
Item No. 330532445407
Part No. LCN000140L

Correct part, wrong eBay description.
eBay link: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330532445407&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3D R40%26_trksid%3Dp3984.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D33053244 5407%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

The seller has got this mixed up with something else. However, it is the part you need.

Rimmer info: http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-LCN000140L

TC

[stocktake]

Just a point on buying the part yourself, if you do decide to do this and a part fails then the people who fitted it for you can charge you to refit it. If you opt for the full parts and labour job and anything fails, your covered. :)

[debbiefudge]

cheers TC. Sent you a PM.

Work valid 6 months

[WillyHeckaslike]

Mike has refered me to Ebay for the oil ladder: Item No. 330532445407 Part No. LCN000140L.Bit pricey. :oops:

We are having to re-think buying the parts ourselves. Give "Gaskets For Classics" a call. The parts listed in its eBay kits are available separately, it merely lists kits to meet what it found to be routine demand. It will make up an order to suit your requirements.

[Telferstr]

Hi, we havn't bought ANY parts, as yet.
It was Mike who said he would provide all the parts, as part of our quote.
But that if we wanted the oil rail ladder, (Which we do). Then we could buy it seperately from Sterling, so, I emailed Patrick.
To be told, as said, that you can't buy it seperately.

Which, I must admit has left me rather confused.

We have said, that perhaps we should provide all the parts. Apart from a second hand head and he can charge us labour??

In which case, I need a list of what to buy.

The MLS gasket.
head bolts.
water pump.
Timing belt.
Piston
oil filter.
oil
red antifreeze.
new expansion tank cap

What else???

Sump gasket?
cam cover gasket?
inlet manifold gasket?

I'm at a loss here!!!

I found someone on one of the forums, who gave a link to Ebay.
Gaskets for classics. They do Rover K series MLS head gasket WITH the oil rail. VHSK16BNR £110. And it has all these 'extra bits' that the MLS ZUA000080 doesn't have.

I need to sort this as soon as possible.

Can anyone give me any answers to my post No. 157 as well please?

Many Thanks. Debbie.

Debbie,

Sometime back in this Thread I mentioned and gave the Part No for the full Cylinder Head Modification Kit. This Kit consist of the 3 essential items you require. Namely:- 1. Multi Layer Steel Cylinder Head Gasket. 2. Cylinder Head Shim (fitted with the Black coated side in direct contact with the Cylinder Head Face) and 3. The Modified Oil Feed Ladder Rail which are all included under the Kit Part No.ZUA000080.
This Kit is available from all Xpart or Land Rover Dealerships, and should not be difficult to obtain. Xpart can supply direct if it is necessary I'm sure.
Be very careful that it is the correct Kit and not some spurious made up Kit.
Save yourself the headache and get the Kit to the Part Number given from the genuine agents.
It really is very straight forward to obtain and does the proper job for you.
Please do not mess about with anything else, as it is just not worth it.
Regards,
Telfer

[debbiefudge]

Hi, yes, fully aware of ZUA000080.
Many thanks.
But, Mike doesn't use this.
He is buying all the parts as it's part of his quote.

Marc has spoken to him, at length and we are not having the oil rail ladder.
I'm leaving it up to him.
If it go's again, then we'l have to face that then.

I was wondering if any one has used the oil rail ladder with other gaskets, than the one in the kit??? (ZUA000080)

Obviously all MLS gaskets are not the same???
Are they copies of the original one that was developed???
What exactly is the difference???
Does any one know please?
Does it depend on who they are made by???

Regards, Debbie.

[debbiefudge]

Todays the day, the car gets fixed!!!

Can't wait. It's been so difficult, not having a car all this time.

Can I just say, THANKYOU to everyone that has given us help and advice.

Regards, Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

Todays the day, the car gets fixed!!!

Can't wait. It's been so difficult, not having a car all this time.

Can I just say, THANKYOU to everyone that has given us help and advice.

Regards, Debbie.


good luck with the car ,i hope it gets sorted well and you have no more trouble with it .. it is a must that when the car is done and the cooling system is bled that they make sure that no air is left in the system...

[SD1too]

:band:

:jig:

[debbiefudge]

Hi, all.

Well, she's fixed and sitting back outside the house!
Such a lovely sight. makes me realise why I fell in love with her, in the first place.

Everything seems to be all ok.
Gonna take her for a nice run at the weekend.

Got to replace the pollen filter and Jules plenum cover.

And then book the MOT and pray she pass's.

Regards, Debbie.

[chrissyboy]

Hi, all.

Well, she's fixed and sitting back outside the house!
Such a lovely sight. makes me realise why I fell in love with her, in the first place.

Everything seems to be all ok.
Gonna take her for a nice run at the weekend.

Got to replace the pollen filter and Jules plenum cover.

And then book the MOT and pray she pass's.

Regards, Debbie.

well done for not giving up on the car ... now if she is looked after well and regular coolant level checks then i should think you will have a crackng car on your hands ..enjoy the car now ,and dont forget to post some pictures of it

[Telferstr]

Hi Debbie,
That is good news and I hope all goes well from now on.
Now sit back and enjoy your 75.
Regards,
Telfer.