Rover 75...is it DEAD????

[vauseyboy]

Hello all. Have been lokin throught the site for the last few weeks trying to find out why the old girl wont start. Shes a 2002 75 cdt estate and has not had any probs for the last 3 years, apart from fuel pumps replaced 6 months ago.
We started her up as normal boxing day and she ran for a few mins then stopped and has not started since!!!
Changed intank pump again, fuel is getting all the way round the system. She has a full tank of fuel.
She will start with easystart but as soon as you take it away she stops.
We have since found lots of water in the passenger footwell (not sure where from....YET !!] but the fusebox is now dry.
All the drainage holes are clear and as far as we can see the ecu hasnt been wet.
Had the ecu in a nice warm place for 3 days,just in case it was just cold and damp,have refitted it but no joy.
Are we just going to have to say goodbye to the old girl or is there something else we could take a look at????? Thanks in advance.
:shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug:

[Gate Keeper]

Hi Johnathan, If you look at the general forum and see the "Need help in buying a car' maybe one the experts could kindly call round with diagnostics and where to start? or help you out given that it seems your car is stuck and not going anywhere. I expect someone will be along to advise as I am no expert.

[efreeti]

Does it turnover on ignition or is it totally dead?

Try unplugging the MAF. I had similar symptoms after fitting new engine and it turned out to be a faulty MAF on the donor engine. I would expect the engine to at least turnover though if this is the problem.

There is probably a "how to" on here somewhere. It is pretty simple, just involves removing the top cover and pulling the maf plug out which is to one side of the injectors. Left hand as you look at it I think but don't quote me on that, it's been a while since I had the top off.

If it starts with the MAF unplugged you know you need a new one :-)

[bramblp]

Extract from Roverrons site

2) CAMSHAFT SENSOR. (quite common) This is used only during cranking to synchronise the timing by indicating when no1 cylinder is on its compression stroke. So if it is faulty, starting becomes difficult and may vary depending upon the temperature of the engine. Once running, as the sensor is no longer used, the car will run normally. This is one way to distinguish between camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor failure.

LOCATION: See photo right- its to the left of the red connector, (in front of the oil filler cap looking from the front of the car)


TIP

1) Try a squirt of East Start. If the engine stops once the easy Start has been consumed, this MAY suggest that the sensor is faulty.

2) Remove the sensor and place cool in a freezer or spray briefly with freezer spray, If the engine starts it could confirm the sensor is faulty.

Check out more at http://tuning-diesels.com/75Zt/R75serv.htm#CF

[vauseyboy]

Thanks folks. Am gonna have another look this weekend and try the bits you have suggested. Will keep you updated....:D

[Mike Noc]

Extract from Roverrons site

2) CAMSHAFT SENSOR. (quite common) This is used only during cranking to synchronise the timing by indicating when no1 cylinder is on its compression stroke. So if it is faulty, starting becomes difficult and may vary depending upon the temperature of the engine. Once running, as the sensor is no longer used, the car will run normally. This is one way to distinguish between camshaft sensor and crankshaft sensor failure.

LOCATION: See photo right- its to the left of the red connector, (in front of the oil filler cap looking from the front of the car)


TIP

1) Try a squirt of East Start. If the engine stops once the easy Start has been consumed, this MAY suggest that the sensor is faulty.

2) Remove the sensor and place cool in a freezer or spray briefly with freezer spray, If the engine starts it could confirm the sensor is faulty.

Check out more at http://tuning-diesels.com/75Zt/R75serv.htm#CF

If it isn't the cam sensor, and you are getting a good fuel supply then may be something on the high pressure side or even a crankshaft sensor. If it stopped by itself would suggest crankshaft sensor as camshaft sensor is only used once at start up to synchronise the camshaft to the crankshaft.

Mike

[vauseyboy]

Hi folks thanks for all your help so far :)

The fuel pump is pulsing after an initial 20seconds or so (prime?) and you can hear the fuel pump relay clicking, this continues to happen while you turn the engine over.
I've not had this before and you can hear the fuel pump relay click click click. Is this normal?

I have tried swapping the fuel pump relay for another and it still pulses.

Could all the water thats in the passenger footwell have caused a short circuit which in turn has fried the ecu?

[2Diesels]

The water in the footwell normally points towards the lower plenum drains being blocked but you say they're ok, could be a sunroof drain come adrift (assuming it has a sunroof)

Anyway as for the non starting if you have a good supply of fuel & you've tried another camshaft sensor, give it a small sniff of easy start (straight into the EGR valve (pop the fat hose off) & if it starts & runs try this little trick

Remove the accoustic cover (black placky cover on top of engine)
Get an assistant to crank the car over
Nip the injector leak-off pipe (small braided pipe) at the left hand end with a pair of pliers & see if it starts. If it does then it looks like injector leakback. It could be just 1 injector causing it but that's easy to work out by repeating the test starting between injectors 3&4 & working towards the left hand end & once it starts it's the injector immediately to the right of your pliers at fault BUT it could still be more than 1

****IMPORTANT*** As soon as the engine starts let go of the pipe or you'll be showered in diesel:D

[vauseyboy]

Hi 2Diesels,

Tried easy start into the egr valve on turn over the engine is close to firing but wont. With easy start into the air intake it starts but as soon as easy start is removed dies.

Tried crimping the injector leak off pipe, no joy.

With the ignition on but not trying to turn over the engine the glow plug light flashes at the same time as you can hear (and feel) the fuel pump relay clicking.

I have just noticed the small white box next to the ecu (within the same housing) is also clicking but am not sure what this is.....

Any more ideas please?

Many Thanks

[vauseyboy]

Hi,

I'm still trying everything to get my old girl going!

I've just taken the outlet pipe from the fuel filter and the fuel is pulsing at the same time as the fuel pump relay (on, off, on, off etc)

I thought it may be worth connecting the battery direct to the fuel pump - the pump runs constantly as expected but the car still wont start.

I think this is electrical, I have checked the earth points in the passenger footwell (due to it having been so wet) but don't really know where to go next.

I now believe the white box in with the ecu to be the glow plug relay - would this stop the car from starting? could it go faulty while the car was running and cause it to stop?

I would really appreciate any help you can give :)

[FrenchMike]

Could you have a try:

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=69308

Mike

[vauseyboy]

A friend who is a mechanic checked the voltages across the injectors and they seemed ok.
The initial prime of the fuel pump being on for 20 ish seconds no longer happens. As soon as I turn the key I can hear the relay(s) click and the fuel pump pulse.

Have tried another camsensor and tried with the maf sensor unplugged (though I can't think why this would be the cause of the pulsing fuel pumps / relays.)

The engine management light is on when turning over the engine.....I can't remember if it's always done this?? Is this normal?

I opened the case on the ecu - there's no evidence of water ingress or staining. The two blue (capacitors??) have marked the metal lid of the ecu as though caused by heat possibly they have burnt out but didn't look like it. Can you recommend a good contact for getting the ecu tested or offer any other suggestions?

The only other sensor I have heard mentioned and I don't know where it is - the fuel pressure sensor(s), if this was giving an incorrect reading/value would it cause the ecu to switch off the fuel pumps etc?

As always any help to get my old girl going is really appreciated and thanks for all the help so far..... (you may have noticed I'm a noob at this sort of thing but willing to try!! :o)

[chrissyboy]

yes if your not getting enough pressure then the ecm will not allow the car to start ...have a look on the net for a ecm clinic ,i guess you could try ecu doctor... have you checked the crank sensor ,if that aint right the car just wont start ...

[unimatrix1066]

injector leak back? what miles has it done

[2Diesels]

Hmmmmm faulty fuel pressure sensor cutting the fuel in & out maybe:shrug:
The sensor for the low pressure side is the one in the fuel filter head, check the connection is clean & secure.

The high pressure sensor is the one in the end of the fuel rail, if either one is faulty it's possible that it could be over regulating the pressure if that makes sense

You're right about that box being the Glow Plug Relay & I know if this is faulty or mising it can cause major starting issues but I don't think it has any effect on fuel pressure.

I think you need to find someone with a T4 computer & get the car checked out

[vauseyboy]

Hi Folks,

Am i correct in thinking that if the crank sensor is faulty the rev counter will not move when turning over the engine (or would move irratically). Mine just raises slightly as normal. Is there a test I can do on this without having to replace it.

I have just checked the low pressure fuel sensor is securely connected and the connections are clean (on the fuel filter). Is there any test I can do with the multimeter in terms of values this sensor should be giving?

I'm going to go try and find the high pressure fuel sensor and see if all is ok there in terms of connections......again is there any voltages I can check or other way of testing this part?

I'm thinking the glow plug relay itself is probably ok as you can hear it switching. It's whats causing it to switch as it and the other relays / pumps are doing that I think is the source of the problem.

I don't think injector leak would cause the pumps/relays to switch as they are doing but am just about to go and double check.

Once again thank you all for your help.... are there any more suggestions before I send the ecu away?

[Jules]

Sounds like your ECU has water ingress from the blocked LOWER plenums,
Causing unusual functions like pulsing fuel pump etc.

Remove ECU and PBC form the housing.
Dry it out for 2 days, then refit.
Send it to the "ECU Doctor' if still no joy.

[vauseyboy]

Thanks for all the advice so far.
Have had the ecu inside for a few days and there was no joy after refitting.
Got a man coming out tomorrow to plug her in to his diags as we are unable to take her anywhere and see what codes he comes up with.
Also going to send away the ecu [after hes been !] and see what happens there.
So sad to see the the old girl in bits.
Fingers crossed for tomorrow....

[vauseyboy]

So, the diag man came out and was unable to connect to the ecu .

This is due,as he found out, to the main ecu relay in the fusebox pulsing, and so not letting him in.

The front passenger-well is again full of water after the rain last night and still dont know where its coming from.

Looks like the old girl is off to Rover heaven.

Needs the wiring doing from the ecu relay to the ecu and the ecu repairing.

Oh dear. Its not looking good.

[Jules]

Have you cleared the drain directly in front of the Pollen Filter?

[vauseyboy]

Hi.

Yes we have done that and all is clear. The pollen? filter and the ecu havent been wet as far as we can see. But we are at a loss just as to where the water is getting in. :shrug:

[cjmillsnun]

Hi.

Yes we have done that and all is clear. The pollen? filter and the ecu havent been wet as far as we can see. But we are at a loss just as to where the water is getting in. :shrug:

Do you have a sunroof?

[TimO]

Hi.

Yes we have done that and all is clear. The pollen? filter and the ecu havent been wet as far as we can see. But we are at a loss just as to where the water is getting in. :shrug:


Hi Vauseyboy,

Had a similar problem re: water ingress, cured it as post below

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=411&highlight=WET+FOOT

Sorry can't help with starting your car.

Good Luck

Tim

[vauseyboy]

Well, looks like shes gotta go.

If anybody would like to offer her a good home and a sensible price then let us know.

Thankyou for all the help everybody has givin but we really cant spend anymore time with her. We are down to driving an mgf with a family of 4 as the Alfa, the other car blew up on mon and she needs a new engine!!!

All happening here.....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[philgill2008]

it sounds the same problem as mine glow plug relay it is in the same location as the ecua white siemens relay 72rb511 hope this helps they cost about 82 pounds or someone might help to get one cheaper phil

[Mike Noc]

Phil these engines will normally start without the use of the glow plugs.

Mike

[DerekS]

I see you state the pumps and pressure are pulsing . ??? I dont know anything here, but should they pulse ? i would have expected the outlet from the fuel pumps to be steady . Hope someone knows .