Would you buy a CDT FBH remote control ?

[Keith]

Feelers for the market?

Following the annual rush of, what is a FBH, how do I test it, can I convert it to a Parking Heater type threads that start around September I have been approached by someone who has been toying with the idea of producing a cost effective simple add on box that might even fit neatly inside the gap at the front of the battery box to automate the FBH and convert it to a parking heater.

It would also offer a secondary function of providing an easy way to operate the FBH occasionally in the warmer months to keep it healthy

The Box would contain a remote receiver which would latch a manually adjustable timed on/off relay (say 15 minutes min to 30 minutes max) for the FBH and a second relay to optionally operate the ATC panel this could potentially operate after the FBH has been running for a few minutes to get the water heated first

It would have three or seven wires to connect up depending on what the owner wished to do.

In its simplest form it would have just three wires to connect up, one to ground one to +12v and one to the FBH and would I hope be a simple five minute installation. This would pre heat the engine but not the passenger compartment but obviously instant heat would be available as soon as the ignition was turned on.

Optionally there would be the opportunity to run the other four wires provided from the engine bay into the passenger compartment to turn on the ATC panel. As you know I have done this a few times already and running the cables is very easy but takes quite a while to do.

Price would be in the £75-£125 bracket (certainly less than a T80 plus bits and bobs) depending on what it cost to buy the various bits put it together and make the exercise worthwhile i.e have enough profit for a beer or two :)

Reason for this post, would there be enough interest for me to follow it up?
Remember for most owners automating the FBH is a relatively easy DIY exercise anyway but from the various threads a relatively plug and play option may be attractive to many owners.

[baxlin]

Keith

Sounds good - I'd be interested in the parking heater bit, not too worried about the atc - depends on the difference in cost as to whether it's worth it - this time of year I'm at work before the temp gauge gets above 1/4 (I commute less than a mile, but I need the car several times a day, that's my excuse), so not only is the heater still cold, it can't be doing the motor much good either.

Hope there's room enough in the battery box for this and the Tu3 that's already there!

Thank you for your research

Malcolm

[Keith]

The cost would be the same I don't think it would be sensible for the sake of a couple of quid to produce one without an ATC switching option so it would be at the owners discretion whether they wanted to run the extra cables or even pay some one else to do it.

Yes I was thinking the same thing, would there be room for TU3 and receiver
I think that's a yes but (there is always a but) have you noticed the battery box gets pretty warm inside when the FBH is fitted (running or not) so we don't want to cook things by putting anything hard up against the wall of the battery box, I have my synergy in there and wrapped up in pipe lagging and that is a nice tight fit.

[Rufras]

Keith,
I think this is a brilliant idea, I too have looked at doing this to mine but there seems to be a lot of conflicting advice on the threads and this has made me unsure. I know a lot of people on here would go for the convenience of a simple plug in box.

[madone]

Keith

Count me in for the plug and play if you perfect one

[Simon]

Well, although I don't count for one of these boxes as I'm a petrol engine blokey, I do feel a vote on behalf of those of us who like easy options. I personally think that if such a plug 'n' play device was available, it would be widely recieved with many interested people.

:lol:

[welly]

Keith

I would definately be interested in this, a couple of questions though.

What sort of range for the remote?
What sort of lead time would we be looking at?


Pete

[simonsmith]

You can include me in for a remote timer please.

[Keith]

Keith

I would definitely be interested in this, a couple of questions though.

What sort of range for the remote?
What sort of lead time would we be looking at?


Pete

Early days Pete, a bit of background, a friend of mine has just gone into Semi retirement and is now doing freelance electronic development and prototype work. We were down the pub speculating if there would be a market for the CDT fan control/test unit Dee Cee developed and I mentioned there was also an opportunity to develop a parking heater solution as long as it was cheaper than the Webasto one and was a lot less hassle to install.

The range of any remote would be dependant on what is commercially available and within Budget. Rover Ron has already identified a Maplin device that may have adequate range but whatever was used it would be unlikely to have the range of the Webasto T80 type remotes which can be up to 300M, but should be enough to allow operation from indoors over a short range.

At the moment there is no lead time because it is just an idea, and ideas grow for example the same unit could also optionally have a built in clock based timer. I have the timer in my car but I have never ever used it that is because I don't use the car for a regular commute so only ever use the remote. For other people that leave and go home exactly the same time everyday the remote may be less attractive than a fixed timer.

[baxlin]

Thanks again Keith, this time for the comment about wrapping the Tu3 - mine's just stuck on the inside of the batt box, right next to the Webasto!

Tomorrow's job is to move and/or insulate it

Malcolm

[welly]

Keith

Thanks for the reply. I think the addition of a timer would be a big bonus especially if it was a seven day timer, so you wouldn't have to alter it for weekends. I too have my Synergy in the battery box, so would require it to fit alongside. The main selling point for me would be ease of the wire connecting.

I have recently contacted several firms that advertise fitting of the heaters, but none have been back with a quote for converting the original to a parking heater, i'm guessing the reason for this is that the labour involved makes it too expensive.

[Keith]

Thanks again Keith, this time for the comment about wrapping the Tu3 - mine's just stuck on the inside of the batt box, right next to the Webasto!

Tomorrow's job is to move and/or insulate it

Malcolm

Don't get to paranoid about it otherwise I will have Ron chewing my ears off :) the temp in the Battery Box probably gets pretty warm but if it got too hot the battery would cook! Modern electronic components should work ok in extremes of heat. The main reason I wrapped mine in pipe wrap was to stop it rattling about in the box

Keith

Thanks for the reply. I think the addition of a timer would be a big bonus especially if it was a seven day timer, so you wouldn't have to alter it for weekends. I too have my Synergy in the battery box, so would require it to fit alongside. The main selling point for me would be ease of the wire connecting.

I have recently contacted several firms that advertise fitting of the heaters, but none have been back with a quote for converting the original to a parking heater, i'm guessing the reason for this is that the labour involved makes it too expensive.

Iirc if you search through .org I think Webasto were quoting £500 to retrofit a Telestart most of the time is spent behind the glovebox running cables mounting the Telestart receiver aerial relays etc that would still partly be necessary if optionally automating the ATC panel.

Hence when I wired up Raistlins FBH I insisted he ran the cables from engine bay to behind the glove box first to save time on the day

[welly]

Keith

Thanks again.

If you can do it for, or near the price quoted, put me down for one.

[yp53]

Won't this do? - I'm sure we've all got a mobile phone going spare somewhere.

http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/MK160

[Keith]

That's a good page but having read how that device actually works
It monitors the display lighting up on the phone, rather novel! OK as long as no one else calls it :)

but yes a GSM receiver would be lovely in some circumstances TI Rich for example could phone his car up whilst getting off the countless planes he is always on

if a GSM receiver was required I would stick to the official Webasto one
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200049184747&category=61524

As it is the proper dedicated two way device for the job about £500 all in if bought from Ebay including fitting if not DIY

[Ti Rich]

but yes a GSM receiver would be lovely in some circumstances TI Rich for example could phone his car up whilst getting off the countless planes he is always onught from

Too right Keith (he says sitting in Miami airport on the way to Buenos Aires). I need the option that as soon as I land at Heathrow I could phone up the FBH (if i had one) so the car is nice and warm. It's horrible coming back to old blighty in the winter and getting into a cold, leather clad, car to get into.


OK, it's not that bad really. But IF i did have a FBH I would buy one for sure.

[Keith]

My mate Bob is going to make a prototype or two with probably the following functions using a three button remote.

Button 1 - on for 15 minutes
Button 2 - on for 30 minutes
Button 3 turns on ATC panel
Button 1 and 2 held together turns all functions off

All functions will stop after a max of 30 minutes

This offers a degree of flexibility
It also has the advantage of allowing independent control of the ATC panel so it can be used in the summer for interior ventilation.

Design aims to be an under bonnet install using three wires plus one extra wire to run into car interior for ATC control this wire would operate a supplied relay to be mounted nearer the ATC panel

This means the initial install to get the FBH working remotely is near plug and play the ATC can be done at a later date.

Comments ?

[Ti Rich]

Sounds a very comprehensive design to me!

[ROB]

Sounds great Keith, I look forward to hearing the results. Any idea of timsecale / cost?

[Keith]

Sounds a very comprehensive design to me!


Well that's three buttons to play with, which might be too complicated for some, obviously present company excluded of course :D

[Keith]

Sounds great Keith, I look forward to hearing the results. Any idea of time-scale / cost?

No prices at the moment, still at the advanced drawing board stage.

Then parts need to be sourced and bought plus initially a customised PCB designed and fabricated and then the time it takes to assemble and test ascertained, later it needs to be documented and the marketing costed, then there is a need to add enough on top to make it worth bothering with in the first place finally there is the P&P!

Obviously like any bespoke item if more than one at a time can be made e.g. say in batches of ten then production costs are reduced but if they are only ordered in ones and twos then they naturally will cost more to produce

When the time comes to offer them for sale Ebay will probably be used and after a season that should give a good idea of the demand

It would be nice to have it prototyped and tested by the end of January but that is outside of my control.

One thing that will need to be made clear when selling this and that is the box won't magically fix a FBH that has died through lack of use.

What I mean by that is I am still regularly coming across people that have not even realised they have a FBH under the bonnet and as a result they really have no idea if the thing works or not.

What it will do is give people a way to test the FBH regularly throughout the year, so if a fault develops they can get it fixed before the FBH is needed in anger. I run my FBH via my Telestart at least twice a month during the warmer parts of the year to ensure it is working properly.

[Keith]

Where members can help is in a name

Ron does well with his "Rover Ron" boxes as they are commonly referred to
the RC FBH accessory needs a simple and catchy name something like a :-

"W.A.S. 1" box - Webasto Automation System MK1 or perhaps seeing as my friend Bob will be making them a "Bob-Box" ..................... ?

[pondweed]

the really useful bit would be the electronics enabling the delay in the ATC start up... which like DeeCees fan mod, would be beyond the capabilities of most of us who, after instruction, are humbly able to identify correct areas to attach wires to and no more! I'm too far down the road with bits purchased, though, to be interested. The fan mod, however, seems to be a must for fan motor longevity, unless you like running with no aircon!

[Keith]

Hi Jon yes we took aboard your comments about being able to delay or rather choose whether to to have the ATC panel running or not. So by putting it on a separate button that gives everyone the freedom of choice and the ability to turn the ATC only on if required, and this then enables one to ventilate the car (a bit) without opening the windows which in some circumstances may be useful if it is not safe or secure to leave the windows open for example.

Some people may prefer the simplicity of having the FBH and ATC always coming on together so depending on the sophistication of the remote/and receiver combi that might become a user selectable option but I don't know for sure.

Once the basic system is built, other features could be added or the remote design adapted to for example operate the boot release this is standard on the MK2 cars but not on the MK1 and there are definitely times when I could do with that function on my key ring!

[Raistlin]

Keith

With the possibility of a boot release function as well, include me in the scheme even though I already have the Webasto setup please :)

[Keith]

Don't get to excited that was just off the top of my head and could just as easily be a separate product as it would suit any MK1 not just a CDT

I haven't even looked at that yet but as the key lock in the boot just operates a switch that could easily be remotely operated and common sense says the receiver for that goes in the boot if there is a power source readily available as the whole point in the design of these boxes is to make it as kiss installation.

The receiver would need to be a secure channel model though if being used for car access purposes where as the one for the FBH can be anything within reason as range is probably the most important consideration for that

So two potential "Bob Boxes"

"Bob Hot Box"
"Bob Boot Box"

Combined with a bit of input from Dee Cee (Pic Programming) and Ron and a bit more understanding of the various K bus codes. We could get really carried away and this is getting silly but what about a small credit card sized remote that allowed you to do almost anything. E.g. Turn on/off the FBH, turn on/off the lights (internal or external) open and close the windows and or sunroof, open the boot .......

A "Bob Bling Box" :)

It is all possible, It just needs R&D and enough of a market to make it worthwhile!

[welly]

Sounding good Keith, please put me down as a definate.

As for the name

Roboheat . (as in Roberts heater)
Remote-a-heat.
Warmaway.
Blip-a-heat.

with model identifiers BRH1/2/3 etc.

[Raistlin]

The remote boot opener is one of the few things I wish I still had from my Ti days Keith.

[Simon]

Combined with a bit of input from Dee Cee (Pic Programming) and Ron and a bit more understanding of the various K bus codes. We could get really carried away and this is getting silly but what about a small credit card sized remote that allowed you to do almost anything. E.g. Turn on/off the FBH, turn on/off the lights (internal or external) open and close the windows and or sunroof, open the boot .......

A "Bob Bling Box" :)

Now, if it ever came to making one of those, I'd definately have one! :drool4:

[Roverron]

A remote boot opener is a very good idea. This could be implemented as a separate remote or combined with the remote controled fbh using a 3button fob.

On a general note, whatever is done, needs to be simple to install. Most owners are not very 'technically minded' .

I will be more than happy to promote the remote fbh / boot release on my website. (foc).

Ron

[welly]

Keith

Any news for us yet? (put hands together, closes eyes and tilts head toward the sky).

[Keith]

No I haven't heard anymore recently, I do know he has another potentially more profitable bit of work on the go at the moment though.

[Andyb123]

Hi Keith,

You can definately count me in as one those who would be after such an item, will it be ready before the winter finnishes. Mind you the weather in this part of the UK is always winter so hey I can wait.

A great idea and one I hope all will support.

Cheers,

Andy

[Keith]

A little box has just arrived :)
Bob has built his prototype BHB (Bobs Hot Box) and this one is primarily for range testing.

I have just done a quick open air test and I ran out of field! So range is over 250' in the open air.

Remote handset configuration is currently via a three button remote with only two in use for now, one button offers time A, the second button offer time B, and pushing both together turns it off.

I will fit it in my car at the weekend in the vicinity of the battery box then test the range in the open air as I expect it to be somewhat reduced due to the screening provided by the surrounding metal work I will be looking for any blind spots, possibly from the rear.

Next step will be to test range from indoors as the objective is obviously to be able to operate this from indoors (within reason)

If the range is not good enough using the receivers 6" long built in antenna then I will extend it to outside the vehicle as there are several places around the lower external windscreen trim where a short wire could be hidden

At the moment the circuit does not use any relays at all which will allow for a very small enclosure to be used and the one bob has sent it in does fit inside the front cavity of the battery compartment.

Now a personal statement as I have had a couple of PMs on the subject of any conflict of interests.

This project is purely a private enterprise initiated by myself and being built/developed by a close friend. It is not being developed by or on behalf of the club.

I hope sales (if it comes to market) to operate in a similar way to Rons excellent tuning boxes i.e via word of mouth and via Ebay etc. That may also be the time for a trader subscription, banner ads or whatever to be purchased in order to promote it.

[Roverron]

Its good to hear progress is bing made.

Its just a pity my fbh doesn't work or I have one to test.
Though I am investigating why the pcb is not sending out any pulses to the pump.

I'll be happy to promote it on my website.

The unused button would do for the remote boot release??

Ron

[Keith]

The unused button would do for the remote boot release??

Ron

Yes or to indivdually control the ATC panel as this has also been requested.
At the moment what matters is verifying it has acceptable range hence I have the prototype as Bob can't really truly emulate a 75 with his Peugeot 406 ;)

FYI Ron, Bob got to see first hand your Synergy at the weekend so now knows where the Mafam plugs in ;)

[welly]

Great news Keith I wasn't expecting that at all. Lets hope the signal is a good one.

[DavidJ]

I want a "Bobby", this is the solution I have waited 2 years for (Plug and play - not bothered about the ATC bit). I think my FBH is working fine, something is running in the engine bay on cold days that isn't on warm days.

[welly]

Any news after the testing Keith ?

[Keith]

As I expected the range was somewhat reduced once the unit was under the bonnet not bad but a few blind spots

I then added a piece of thin coax to the receiver and created an external aerial (the actual receiving part of the aerial is only about 6" long) I hid this under the rubber strip where the plenum cover touches the windscreen

Range was almost as good as in the open air I then tested it from indoors with my car about 50' away outside. I could just about get through two and a half rooms in my bungalow before reception became intermittent which is miles better than the central locking plip could ever manage

Still a couple of blind spots but good enough as I think that will do for most parked "on ones drive" type situations and most people I expect will be looking at the car when pushing the button anyway In case it explodes or something :)

I have given the prototype back to Bob he is going to keep the extended aerial idea and then people can either leave it under the bonnet or put it somewhere else as I did

He is now setting up the timers as the one I was testing had a bulb for the FBH output and was set for just a few seconds

I suggested to him that it might be an idea to include a hi brightness LED maybe even in the aerial wire to try and give some visual indication the command had been received but this may be something to leave to the owner to add if required as it would all add to the cost and might make the aerial wire a bit to bulky.

I expect any owner will soon learn from experience the limits of the device within their own surroundings and will operate it accordingly

I hope to see the revised Prototype tomorrow (pub night) and will then test it for real

Then Bob needs to sit down and do some sums

Cost of Components (highest cost item is the commercial receiver and plip being used)
Cost in man hours to put it together
Cost of marketing and P&P
Document the install
Decide on a support and warranty or returns process
Factor in some Profit

Then
Develop the add on Relay box for ATC control
Come up with a realistic selling prices for both variants plus add ons e.g. an extra plip

Make some to sell, then put them on Ebay and see what happens :)

[madone]

Great news Keith. If we buy an original, will the upgrade to an ATC blip be easy? or will we have to buy another one?

[pondweed]

....and for those that want the massive hassle but have no technical knowhow, the first pulling together of several strings so you can get on with it yourselves...for additions please and I'll amend again in due course!

[welly]

Great news again Keith and thanks for all the time you are putting in, hope your on free beer for your efforts.

Please contact me before you start to sell on Ebay as I dont monitor it as a rule and would hate to miss out on the first batch.

[Gryphon]

Sounds great i would love a Bob Bling Box I have a Webasto on my 75.
Keith could you please tell me how do i test it ?

[Keith]

Sounds great i would love a Bob Bling Box I have a Webasto on my 75.
Keith could you please tell me how do i test it ?

have you read this?
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=167

[Gryphon]

have you read this?
http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=167



Thanks Keith i will try it in the morning

[Isis]

I'd like one too, but after shelling out for new pumps, I guess it might have to wait for a bit.

[Raistlin]

I think I might well want one of these Keith - it's unlikely I will be able to recover my Telestart

[Keith]

So you are looking for another Diesel then?
I assume you will be going for a slightly later car if so just remember to check it has a FBH

Bob is having some sample PCBs made but I have no idea when he will be able to start making them.

He is a bit busy at the moment as someone here knows ;)

[Raistlin]

Spot on Keith

It definitely has a Webasto as well ;)

I'll attempt to recover my Telestart though

[Keith]

Yes I think you should

pull the wires out of the FBH but leave in situ ditto the supply

the antenna should come away from the screen without making to much of a sticky mess

you will need to pull the ATC panel out and reconnect the two wires I patched to the relay just match up the colours up, easy

[Martin75]

Keith,

I too travel some short runs (a mile maybe) and would certainly join the list if the idea can develop. I'd like the remore as well please.

Martin

[black olive]

OT, but Martin are you a user or supplier of stoves, the reason I ask is we are having an extension built and will be installing one

[Keith]

Keith,

I too travel some short runs (a mile maybe) and would certainly join the list if the idea can develop. I'd like the remore as well please.

Martin

If you are only doing a mile or so I would not recommend running the FBH

Rule of thumb is run it for no longer than the journey time otherwise you could be heading towards a falt battery after a few days

[Gryphon]

Hi Keith any further update on Bob's bling box

[Keith]

At the moment Bob has decided it was not financially worth while, with parts, P&P and labour assembly time plus a bit of profit he was strugling to do it for under £100 and at that price a Telestart is a better option as it offers far better range than any TX/RX combo he could buy within budget.

I still have the protype though which I will use myself one day

[JohnFol]

Just looking for a supplier of telestart (i.e. eBay) and can;t spot anyone at the mo. Any other sources out there?

[BigRuss]

Most of the sellers of tele-starts on e-bay are in germany but not many take paypal.

Russ

[Keith]

A telestart is just a TX RX with a Timer built in the TX
you could use almost anything as even with a Telestart you still need to build a control box with a few relays in it

Most car central locking units with a comfort switch option will do

The Rx and plip bob bought for the prototype was reasonably high spec as we were after maximum range and I think those two items alone cost nearly £40