Brexit Negotiations to 2020
 

How strange now we have to abide by EU rules until December 2020, have no say after the exit time, hold off on other International trade agreements. While the EU concocts a deal to suit them..Is the EU worrying that other members will want to jump ship? :shrug:

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history" because our rules and laws are already the same, the international trade secretary Laim Fox has said. (2017)
Really?...........

living in NI with the NI/ROI border issue means living in the real world.

That was always the deal, we loose everything then we have then have to figure out what we have to sell to Papua New Guinea - oh and Europe - that we make here...... which is basically nothing that doesn't involve importing most of it ...... brilliant plan......

Maybe it would be if anyone at all was making any provision for it rather than mostly trying to be in charge of a political party :shrug:

Given they and we have dedicated people to sort this out, I wonder what is really going on here, unfortunately I'm not smart enough to work it out..

Is it possible that an early clean Brexit would see UK Ltd crash and the government along with it? Personally, I was for staying in though, if we come out I'm not bothered about it..but let's get on with it asap which I believe would be best for business.

No matter what sort of deal we get hard. soft, Norwegian, custom union whatever half the country will be saying we should have stayed in and the other half will be saying we got the wrong deal. In the mean time the Govt will carry on merrily cutting public services or putting them in the hands of big business and then saying the costs are going up so they have to cut more.
One little example, saving money by outsourcing court services means we are now pay £50m to contractors. Courts have been closed and justice suffers. Who gains?
We moan about losing control while selling the national grid to the Chinese. Even old Ernie (NS&I Premium Bonds) are now administered by a French company.
Our problem isn't whether we are in Europe or out of Europe. Its whether we have a government that governs in our interest or just feathers their own nest.

Hi Sidevalve, I agree, Brexit, Government and EU the whole lot to my mind has become a game of smoke and mirrors..rarely do we know what is actually going on. The great UK sell off, who if anyone has a credible plan? Trump perhaps :}

May and this government are going to pamper to Brussels's whim's and wishes and sell us down the swanny :shrug:

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history" because our rules and laws are already the same, the international trade secretary Laim Fox has said. (2017)
Really?...........

I doubt it, whatever politicians say there really isn't anywhere else that would be profitable for EU members to trade with. America are 'being great again', China just wants to export anything other than luxury items and India.........

Everywhere else is just too far away.

I can remember a time when it was very difficult to trade in Europe, if we ever took a machine over for demo we had to use a Carnet document which covered duty free import/export in to each country you passed through. Also, each and every country was using it's own currency another head ache. We dealt with an Italian company in euros long before it was in regular use.

Trade within the EU had become so much easier than it was before, even so you had to declare sold goods to VAT using form VAT 101 and include the EU companies VAT number and sales amount and send in to HMRC. I recall being fined for late filing due to waiting for their VAT number, in the end one VAT man told me, just send the form even the info is missing to avoid the fine.

Then we had BS and ISO, we had to ensure equipment met with the ISO standards also had a cost to doing that, often found our standard was higher than the ISO standard.

There has been a whole lot of benefit to UK business being a member and I assume many fear what might happen on exit, it does appear to me that there is no credible plan to put peoples minds at rest, much in the same way there was no clear directive which the electorate could base a good decision on prior to the referendum.

No we were sold down the swannee when Heath & co took us all for idiots and joined the EU.

The French didn't want us in the EU, I remember the 3 day week under Heath in 1974 when the coal miners were striking.

Blocking Migrants From EU
 

Well, one minute we are being told migration of eu citizens coming to the UK are good for the economy and are net contributors yet, TM wants them to have no rights during the transition period :shrug:

I`m extremely sad that the UK leaves the EU.
I`m always wondering what are the real attitudes over here about - yes or no?:shrug:
Estimate.

Hi, it's unfortunate in some respects because, many people who voted to leave won't be affected by leaving the EU, IMO it should have been a vote decided by younger folk who's future may well be affected.

My own view as I'm in the older category, if it creates harmony and avoids war then let it be however, I do believe the better way forward may have been to re negotiate our position and remain.

The governments target on immigration 100,000 remains at close to 250,000 and includes many none EU migrants. We are a small Island and can't continue under such pressure on our NHS, schools, housing and benefit system, these pressures can spark racism and therefore remains a delicate topic.

In terms of GDP, we're one of the wealthiest nations on the planet, yet our health service is underfunded & there are large 'vacancy-factors' for most of our public services.
If we're so good, why can't we actually afford to fully-fund our public services & better-fund the NHS in the position we're in now & who thinks things are actually going to improve the instant we leave the EU.?

I wouldn't have joined the EC all those years ago, because of what we lost & who we turned our backs on,
BUT now that we've done it,
I certainly wouldn't be looking to leave it now & turn our backs to the trading block we do almost 50% of our business with.?

It's not in the EU's interest to give us a good deal on exit fees or trade deals for 2 reasons;
1. They must, by their own constitution, do the best deal possible for their member states, of which we will no-longer be one.
2. As was mentioned earlier, the collective EU needs to send a signal to other member states, that there can be no easy-ride for leavers.

Boris & others of his ilk, who said the EU is bound to give us a good deal, is talking out of his hat (which may actually be covering his butt.?) if he thinks that ONLY the UK can supply the EU with the products & services we currently do.
We have a reputation for quality goods & services, but with a 25% WTA tariff on those products, it will be in the interest of venture-capitalists to look at the low wage economies of Portugal & Greece, to see if companies can be set-up there to provide the EU with what we currently do, but at lower overhead costs AND tariff-free.?

We do send around £350 million week to the EU, but they send us around £150 million a week to pay for various projects which they fund.
I would imagine that we'll still be paying around the £200 million mark to the EC, should we end up with a Norway-style associate partner status wit them.
So we won't be any better off financially & we'll no-longer have a say in how the rules & laws are made nor involvement in future planning.

IF I was in charge of Brexit & I really wanted to make it work, (which I'm not & I don't) I'd have been using EC development funding to improve our infrastructure & looking to regenerate mass-manufacturing over the last 10 years, so that we're in a position to hit the ground running, once the exit door closes behind us.
Instead we've got about a year to plan it, but because the final deal isn't yet arranged, businesses & government can't even do that properly yet, because what they're actually planning for isn't yet nailed down.?

My last point is that Northern Ireland voted Remain overall, but because it's attached to an EU nation, it looks like the effective border will be 'fudged' out into the Irish Sea. Making the island of Ireland almost one nation & if it's actually successful in that form, it makes the unification of Ireland much more likely.
Also, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to Remain, not long after it narrowly voted to remain in the Union. Once Brexit happens, it's very likely that they will hold another referendum, citing the substantive changes in the status-quo since their last vote. Should that vote happen, I believe that they will leave the Union.
With both the Scots & probably the Northern Irish gone, it will have fallen to the supposed party of the Union, to have presided over the break-up of the Union, just to satisfy the original problems of internal squabbling within the Conservative party.?

If you've bothered to read to the end of this rant,
:rant: :rant: :panic: :panic: :mood: :panic: :panic: :rant: :rant:
I'm truly sorry for inflicting it upon you,
but at least I feel better for it.

(& to be honest, I'd be very, very happy to be proved wrong,
but I fear that we've gambled the house, car & farm on this, so there isn't really a fall-back position, if it looks like it's not working out as we'd hoped.?)

I see no point to this really - you will never persuade darceydog , MGJohn and various others that there is any other valid point of view other than theirs.

So what's the point:shrug:

They may be wrong, but no one can prove it, and they can't prove they are right so it's all pointless

A polite, but honest exchange of views is never pointless,
though I fully accept that if no-one compromises on their starting points, it is definitely fruitless.

It was more about me 'venting' than anything else,
but if someone can actually show me the flaws in my thought process,
I'd be a lot more relaxed about the future.!!

I suspect sadly you won't get it here - everything is going to be absolutely amazingly brilliant and if you disagree then 200 posts from about 3 people disagreeing will eventually wear you down to the point where you will decide there is more to life. So it's all going to be brilliant, honest..... and let's get back to cars :)

Honestly, I feel now the same as when the election happened, I just don't know..I'm hoping for the sake of my children it will all pan well in the end..:}

Despite all my rantings.......
I can completely agree with that sentiment.
(hope over experience) :shrug::shrug: :eek:

During the referendum vote, the lead up to it, the remainers on the OC were very much in the minority. Despite this, the Brexiteers had it in their mind, to get those on the boards to either “sign up or ship out”. A small group of Brexiteers were drawn together like the wolves in the pack, snuffing out the opposition. Grown men behaving like a gang of teenagers.

Some members jumped on the Nigel Farage bandwagon in the hope he would solve the immigration issues. How they exclaimed his virtues and how they must have felt betrayed, when he threw in the towel. That is how it was. Some of the remainers felt intimidated and were driven away from the forum for good, never to return. That was sad.

The arguments in both camps were powerful and got personal. It was for those reasons the moderators closed the threads down.

Brexit is happening, we can do nothing about it other than to embrace it and get with the programme. I would not like this forum to return to those dark days when members were at each other’s throats :getmecoat:

I'm hoping to move to Spain and enjoy the sunshine doubt if we could afford France, wonder how that plan will be effected after Brexit. As it stands now it's quite simple to move over there.

My other half has a new job which gives flexibility, she can work 2 to 3 weeks on and 2 to 3 weeks off, as she is younger than me it makes sense for her to keep earning. The move is possible and we could manage financially, not an extravagant lifestyle but reasonably comfortable.

So, I'm following Brexit with some self interest and a bit of an agenda, some 1.2 million Brits resident in other EU Countries.

Your idea sounds very appealing.
Have you investigated how the Spanish Healthcare system, compares to the NHS?
That aspect would influence me a lot.

Hi Stevie, not recently I know there are rules on burial such as you have to be taken care of within 24 hours and have a plan in place approx £1500. My plan was to get a North sea ferry, drink a load and jump off lol..But seriously I do need to look in to it all in depth, not getting any younger. Think your income has to be paid to a Spanish bank also, to get residence. Maybe I should start a new thread and perhaps some already over there could comment.

Gordon, that first bit of information about burials really Wasn't what I had in mind!!
But your right, it would be useful to know from other members, who have either made the move, or at least investigated in more detail.
I may never do it, but at least being born in NI, I can hold both British and Irish (EU) passports, so that may assist things.
The weather over here is currently depressing - might look at flights to Spain this afternoon.!!

Hi Stevie, you can pay in monthly to the private health care scheme run by the local authority, 60 euro for under 65's and 157 euro for over 65's more info here pay 100% for prescriptions.:}

Your lucky in that respect, flights should be cheap after Easter, my daughter is studying at Bologna uni for 4 months, she got home for the holiday £80 return to Liverpool, quite cheap right?

I spend part of the year living outside of the EU. Today it has been 26C and rainy. The warmer weather is an appeal for retirees in Spain or like us in the tropics. I live off an NHS pension and if one is careful it is possible to still have a comfortable lifestyle. It’s only taxed once in the UK and not taxed again in Kenya. There is no welfare state and no NHS here, so private health insurance is important. For the 2 of us at our age it costs £8000 p.a

Do check out your health entitlements and other benefits for a non EU resident. I guess you could apply for Spanish and EU residency, once the UK leaves the EU, then entitlements will be free if you are successful. Do your research :} I wonder what their terms and conditions are. The upside of living in the tropics is the weather, the wildlife and being able to swim in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean, all accessible. The flight between London and Nairobi is 8 and half hours one way and 9 hours the other way. I am used to it. Spanish is not a difficult language to pick up and English is the second language :}

£4000 per person, wow. :eek:

I’d be a lot richer without it. When I first started paying into it in 2008, it was £1400 pp and over 10 years it has gone up to £4000 pp. I wonder how much per person, the NHS costs the country? ;)

I don't know without looking it up, at a guess £2000.

Thank you, your not far off https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-the-nhs-budget/
In comparison to private health care, that’s a better price. A private bone marrow transplant costs £750,000, to the NHS its about £100,000 less.
Long live the NHS....:}

Wow Phillip that's a fair chunk of money you are paying, I'll look in to all aspects of making the move for sure, my wife is Filipino so Spanish language for her is easy and I can order a beer in 35 languages :D.

Living out in Nairobi must be fascinating, and a far cry from the hit and miss climate we have here, good on you! :}

Congratulations Gordon on being married to a lady from the Philippines :} If I may be permitted to say, the backbone of the NHS. Just before I retired, because of the shortage of nurses in the NHS, we flew out to the Philippines on a recruitment drive and were quite successful. Lovely people :}

I don't know how much longer I can afford to pay into a private health care scheme. At a certain point it will no longer be viable and will cost as much or less to pay for the treatment out of our own pockets. We keep it going in case we are ever in an RTA and need ICU etc or a medi-vac out of the country.

We seem to have drifted off the discussion ;) I wonder is it worth tracing back into your heritage to see if you are able to get an EU passport. If you are thinking of living in Spain, it could help if you had one. A friend of the family tracked down her Mothers Irish birth certificate to South Africa of all places. She said there was a lot of paperwork, but she is now an Irish passport holder. She voted to remain and now she has the Irish passport, it is not so much of an issue ;)

Hi Phillip many thanks for the advice and compliment, we have several friends Filipino doctors and nurses, think the main benefit to our NHS is the fact that they are trained in a medical system mainly akin to that of America. The Spanish didn't leave much behind as in most countries they ruled however, the Americans gave the Filipino education and health benefits.

My Grandmother once mentioned there is Irish blood in the family so, I may well endeavor to find out, good idea.:}

Good morning Gordon, thank you for getting back and thank you for your lovely reply :} Our friend who got her Irish passport, did everything on line and through letter writing, filling in forms. She said it took about 2 weeks. She lives in the UK and has a UK passport. The only delay was tracking down her Irish Mothers birth certificate, as it was in Pretoria in South Africa. At first it was thought it would not be found due to a fire in an office. But hey ho it was found, but the delay and the search in another country made it all worth it in the end for her. Interestingly, my Mother was Irish and I could apply for an Irish passport, but haven't got round to it. I am not sure I would use it.

I have a UK passport and I have Kenyan permanent residency. The authorities here make it hard for foreigners to apply for one. The fee for the application is 5000 GBP. I only got it last year. The application process took 3 years, unlike Eire. I had to prove a certain income, proof of property ownership, have a clean criminal record and submit bank statement for 3 months, showing I was not in debt, not a BR blah blah, then go for an interview with the Director of Immigration, the Chief of Police and other officials in the boardroom at a Government building in Nairobi, talk for 15 minutes and was then grilled about my knowledge of Kenya, the language, but they did help me get through it and were very nice to me. I was up to the task and succeeded. There is none of that when you apply for an Irish passport.

I wonder if it is the same for foreigners wanting to come and settle in the UK? I think thats why some of UK electorate in the lead up to the referendum bought into the UKIP thing, because of the issues for them about immigration ;)

All the best Gordon with your plans for the future and retirement when that comes :}

Hello Phillip, very interesting post, you did very well on the Kenyan application and very costly. When my wife arrived in the UK she cam on a fiance visa though we were already married however, it was the only basis the embassy would allow, we had to get married again in the UK. When she made the application for naturalisation 21 years ago it cost a mere £120 think now it is around £3000.

You have a point regarding the immigration angle on Brexit, many thought folk from the EU would be told pack your bags and leave, there are a lot of well educated EU migrants occupying top jobs, my bank manager is Polish for example..

Watched a documentary once on Peterborough and migrant workers, most of them working on the land, the cameras moved to outside the job centre dole office as we knew it, groups of young Brits with cans of beer and cider in their hands at 9-30 am..they were asked, there are plenty of jobs available harvesting why don't you have a go at it? not us mate we leave all that to the immigrants..in reality the immigrants have taken quite a few of the jobs Brits simply won't do.

On retirement Phillip, I did at 58 to concentrate on three teenagers, the driving instruction is more of a hobby as they, the kids that is are in uni well, last one goes this September..

And the same to you and please watch out for those spiders, as an Indian gentlemen once said to me " You may escape the elephant but the mosquito will kill you". :D

Brexit & Northern Ireland
 

It appears the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement is in fact underpinned by the EU in as much as, during our membership NI,UK and the Republic were all members. Border control may well be a precursor to renewed trouble in NI.

NI voted to remain in the EU and apart from the border issues which, has the potential to undermine the Good Friday Agreement, NI is in receipt of a £58 million gain from the EU. So in fact NI has the most to lose after Brexit and in particular the agriculture sector.

I understand that most people in mainland GB are preplexed by the NI/ROI Border issue, it was barely raised at a National Level before the vote, and why it only seems that now it has surfaced as a Major topic.
Your brief summary illustrates why it is very important on this side of the Irish Sea, and has always been a Major issue here.

Brexit or not, many voted, well those who were interested, and one side got more votes than the other. That was pretty straight forward and I for one accept that. The rest is down to the powers to be to sort out? And the vote was national ie United Kingdom not a regional vote so whats all this about how many Scots,NorthernIrish, Welsh or English voted which way, and name calling. Seems a bit, well distasteful to me. Chris S.

i've never really understood all this ..'it's the youngsters future that has been robbed.....The young people should decide the future etc etc....... nonsense.


What exactly is that all about?


Under what serious rationale should some voters get more of a say than others?

Rather ironically every single new regulation and directive is devised and put forward by unelected Beurocrats. The elected MEPs are unable to propose any legislation themselves despit being the only democratically elected people in the whole institution.

So those young people don't ever get a vote on who makes their laws and don't ever get the chance to vote them out either if they disagree with whats going on anyway.



The EU is a disgusting corrupt, gravy train for some, totally lacking in any shred of recognized democracy.


What other reason does anyone with their head screwed on need to demand to leave it?

Interesting post bendrick, Regarding the younger vote that was my opinion and don't believe I used the term robbed.

Yes, the EU has what's commonly known as a democratic deficit however, it happens to be more democratic than our own national parliament and the house of commons with a first past the post system.

We also have the unelected house of lords and given the unrepresentative house of commons in terms of political parties to votes one might come to the conclusion that the EU with it's council of ministers is more democratic than our own system.

I'm sorry didn't intend to give the impression that you used the term robbed.

I was speaking/writing rhetorically in regards to the whiners who continue to trot out the expression 'Youngsters robbed of their future' on every single political debate show, rather than referring to yourself.



Given my experience working in the European parliament in Briussels for an MEP I'm afraid that we'll have to agree to disagree on the point of democracy.

The first past the post system used to elect the government in the UK is badly flawed, however British voters do actually have a vote.

The EU commission and presidents are not elected by the people and can never be voted out. Yet it is they and their staff who devise and propose all the legislation that affects our lives here.


The European parliament which is the only part of the EU whose representatives are elected by the people does not propose any legislation whatsoever and can not alter the legislation put forward to them, only vote on ammendments to what is put before them by the unelected.

The EU parliament can only put forward changes or amendments which are routinely disregarded.

One perfect example of the lack of any point to the MEPs and their chamber is the motion put forward now on two seperate occasions to stop the ludicrous moving the entire parliament to Strasbourg every month, moving MEPs, staff their boxes and boxes of documents etc etc just to please the French.


The motion to end this mega expensive madness has twice been heavily voted through by MEPs and just ignored each time by the commission.

The elections for the presidents of the various bodies and commission are one candidate Stalinesque type votes, endorsements of European nobodies who have been chosen behind the scenes before being put forward as the only candidate.

Which is why we end up with the likes of ex Maoist, Prodi and current Luxembourg nonentity Juncker running the show


It may well be your idea of democracy but I'm afraid I'm struggling to recognise any such resemblence of the description of what I understand democracy to be with what I witnessed in Brussels on a daily basis.




As regards the House of Lords it is a complete and utter discgrace and should be scrapped tomorrow, however I fail to see any difference in it's undemocratic concept and that of the European Union.

Hi bendrick as this is a discussion it's refreshing to read your post which is clear and well put, no apology needed. I always thought the council of ministers had the power to influence legislation using the yellow card process. Is it also true that citizens can lobby MEP's have matters brought before the ECJ via petition?

My apologies for the delay in reply.

The yellow card system is virtually never used and technically can result in the unelected beureaucrats considering amending proposals if individual governments object.

Citizens can lobby MEPs by petition but again can ( and will be) be totally ignored and it basically means nothing.


You'll find that the EU makes a great pretence about 'openess' 'transparency' and laughably 'democracy' but it all means nothing it's all a sham.

Some claim that the appointment of individual countries commissioners is democratic because they are chosen by the elected governments of each country but in reality it just means that they are appointed by the same cronyism that elevates sychophantic non entities to the house of Lords.

Kinnock
Mandelson
Johnathan Hill

The laughably titled Baroness Ashcroft who was appointed to run the EU external service.

All a result of non elected cronyism


They all now vote on Brexit matters along with many others who are in receipt of EU pensions.


In local council chambers the length and breadth of the UK a councillor has to declare an interest on the slightest of associations to a topic being debated whether personal or that of a family member, withdraw from the chamber and not take any part in discussion or vote on any particular subject that they could be accused of having a personal interest in however tenuous.

Wheras these jokers who have a massive personal financial interest have the cheek to vote on Brexit matters in the house of lords.



You will find that nothing is democratic in the EU even the voting. Quite some years ago before ever going over to Brussels I spoke to an MEP who told me that mostly the electronic system is not used because the EU parliament votes on so many new legislative matters put before them in each session that the system cannot cope fast enough.

Most of the voting is done by hand ....Red Robbo car park style.....and he demonstrated to me how fast the votes were taken. It was literally..... For, Against abstain, For Against abstain, For against abstain.


The speed identical to the speed that you just read that, 3 new laws to govern you and your family, and they are voting literally hundreds and hundreds of these through in many sessions just like that.


He told me that it had quickly become obvious to him that many laws were being passed that were actually being voted down and he had twice stopped the voting to complain. The first time the chairman/president pointed to a pile of legislative papers 18 inches high on his desk and said " but we have to vote on all these"

The MEP insisted on the last ( false vote) being redone electronically which they did, only to find that ( these are not the exact figures but are roughly in proportion to what he said the figures were as I can't remember them now)

For 265 against 470


And this had actually been passed on a show of hands.


Is that how you imagined many of the laws that you now live under to have been passed? And do you find that acceptable?



I must confess to being horrified when being told of this but in equal measure also didn't quite believe that such blatant vote rigging or procedures were actually being carried out.


However a couple of years later I came across a clip on youtube of him stopping voting in the EU parliament and complaining about exactly the farce that the voting is.



I hope that people are shocked.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKQAE...em-uploademail






For some reason I can't do the link but just copy and paste the words below into the Youtube search box and prepare for another example :-



The european parliament vote 16x in 1 minute Then dinner time







And this is how the laws governing you and your families and this country have been voted on for decades.


It's not for me thanks.

Actually any money Northern Ireland gains from the EU is of course not EU money but ( as net contributors) British taxpayers money returned to Britain ( in this case Northern Ireland) after roughly 50% has been held back and handed over to fund other EU countries and the gold plated pay and perks handed over to to the Top Bods within the EU.


The EU has no money, it is our money returned after the deductions and is only allowed to be spent on projects authorised by the Eu and not freely, much of it requiring further match funding from us just to add insult to injury.

Hi bendrick for sure a huge gravy train for MEP's and their relatives and EU pensions, we the UK will be paying for within the divorce bill. Agree on the House of Lords £305 each a day for most of them to sleep.

The EU gravy train makes the one at Westminster look positively amateur I can assure you.


I worked for two different MEPs the first one on getting elected told me that he was ushered into a room on his first appearance in Brussels where two EU officials proceeded to lay out to him everything that he was entitled to.


One item was a 40,000 Euro a year office allowance for back in the UK which would be paid into his personal bank account, upon asking what happens then with that, as in, presumably he would at the end of the year produce receipts for what had been spent and return what was left of the 40,000 euros.

The two officials looked at each other in bewilderment then back at him and one of them said, no...no receipts, we just automatically pay the 40,000 Euros into your bank account and no one to our knowledge in the history of the parliament has ever returned any unspent money.


There is of course the 306 Euro per day tax free attendance allowance paid to MEPs in addition to their wages plus of course one of the most generous pension deals on the planet.

Most MEPs that I knew of rented flats, and a number shared these to save money
flats can be found at surprisingly cheap rents not far from the main EU building in Brussels and for instance the one that the MEP that I recently worked for was covered moneywise by approx 4 days expense claims per month the rest of the E306 per day for the rest of the month was of course bunce straight into the bank account.

Those MEPs sharing of course cleared even more.


Chuck into the mix free private health care, immunity from prosecution for many offences ( no need to worry about speeding in your remapped Rover if you're an MEP on the continent) Nice chauffer driven shiny black Mercedes to ferry you back and fore work. Special low income tax rates for EU officials.

And I'm sure that you're getting the picture.



Again, personally I would prefer to see this money spent on our own people who actually worked their guts out to raise this money but yet have to wait weeks for a doctors appointment or years for an operation here in the UK.



I also am friendly with a young chap of about 26 who is the son of two British EU officials who work in Luxembourg he was brought up there and attended a special school for the offspring of EU officials ( There is of course also an EU university). He detests the EU with a passion and told me that he very quickly realised that he and the other kids were being brainwashed during their education in regards to the 'State that is the EU' whilst in school. Living back in the UK he keeps in touch with a number of his former schoolmates and tells me that every single one now work as officials of the EU. It's a production line which a whole 'EU class' of people are ushered along it.

I am no conspiracy theorist but this really is sinister stuff and echoed much of my observations of the EU through personal experience.


It's Animal farm with knobs on basically.



Taiking of Luxembourg many people will not be aware that there is a large number of EU facilities there including a third chamber ( not used since 1981) it was originally intended to be yet another chamber used in rotation with Brussels and Strasbourg and has recently been the subject of a 500 million Euro refurbishment despite not being used. Many of the hundreds of staff based in Luxembourg are now paid large sums of money in wages and travel expenses to travel back and fore to Brussels and Strasbourg because their translation and administration facilities are not used in Luxembourg.


So next time you're stuck in A&E for 14 hours watching an OAP sleeping on a trolly because there are no beds available pehaps a thought can be cast for the money that OAP possibly paid in income tax during their working life which is now being handed over for such extravagance and waste to a political elite who are living the highlife on the back of decent ordinary hard working peoples toils.


Again not for me I'm afraid, and despite the details outlined above my one primary reason for despising the EU and everything it stands for is ( apart of course from the advice of the Russians who keep ringing me up telling me to vote leave)


Is the complete and utter lack of democracy.



I tend to despise most politicians, there must be a very small handful of decent ones out there somewhere I suppose, even some who started off fairly genuine before quickly become morally and financially corrupted.

But at least I like the idea of being able to vote them out before voting in another bunch who no doubt will turn out to be just as bad.


Which is impossible in the EU

The distasteful thing is that the Brexit vote was won with lies and deceit. Now that the truth of the decision is becoming clearer to voters they can see just how badly they were hoodwinked by the Leave campaign.

No plan, no morals, no hope. They all jumped ship afterwards when they realised the gravity of their mistake.

Now we're left with a Tory majority propped up by the DUP who lost the majority vote in NI. Who claim to want the same laws that apply in England to apply in NI........except of course when it's something they disagree with like abortion, gay marriage or evolution.

Yes, and no mention of the borders in NI and Gibraltar, surprising no Irish politicians spoke of the border :}

The present issue making the headlines is whether the UK should be part of a Customs Union or Single Market. After the bullying the UK has been subjected to in the Brexit 'negotiations' I would see the EU as an 'unfriendly state' and should be approached as such by our negotiators.
No single Market, no customs Union - if the EU wants to force Ireland to put in place a hard border with NI then so be it. The UK need not put a hard border in place on its side. Similarly with Spain and Gibralter.
As for the huge amounts of cash we may be paying to the EU, that should only be agreed if we get a trade agreement.
Should the EU not want a trade agreement then, in all probability, the UK's economy with suffer to some degree. In which case we can withdraw all our military forces from EU countries to save cash. This may encourage Mr Putin to invade the EU (and serve them right) but the UK will be OK because EU countries will be hit first and by that time Mr Corbyn will be Prime Minister and he is a big friend of Mr Putin, is he not?

P.S. A customs union or Single market is of little interest to me as I do not want to buy stuff from the EU. In fact, I will go out of my way to avoid buying stuff from the EU. This attitude grew from the way BMW walked away from Rover - (the ******s) and has 'matured' since.

There, I am glad that's off my chest.

An interesting contribution - but it was the UK that decided to leave the EU, and they made no secret of the consequences.
So now it's 27 v 1 - and it my opinion the UK will be in a slow decline for many years to come.
Also, it comes as no surprise to me that the NI/ROI border issue is now front and centre - it was discussed in detail this side of the Irish Sea, but sadly now much on the National debate.
So interesting times ahead - but I certainly did not vote to be poorer!

An interesting take given the remain campaign's Project Fear and the establishments cultivation of foreign heads of state and international institutions to try to scare the British public into voting to remain.

And well done to the public for resisting the lies and vested interest of the ppolitical class and chiefs of industry who had grown fat living on cheap imported labour for decades whilst the British working class saw their wages suppressed year after year.


The oft quoted £350m a week for the Health Service? Whilst not defending the bunch of tories who paraded this on the side of the bus. The words do not in any way shape or fashion promise £350m a week for the Health service and I suggest that anyone who interprets the actual words to mean this really need to go back to school and complete their English comprehension course however low the educational standards in this country have become.

Of course those who quote the bus slogan as meaning that the wording actually states that £350m a week will be spent on the NHS have really bought into the repeat a lie enough times and (people will believe it) it simply doesn't state that.


I am sick to death of hearing simpletons moaning that there wasn't enough information for them to judge on. Putting to side the disgraceful Cameron £9m government leaflet sent to every home, every single news outlet, TV channel, Newspaper, website pararded wall to wall EU referendum coverage for month after month after month up to the actual vote.

I was bored stiff with hearing aboput it all and yet we still have morons saying that there wasn't enough information for them to make an informed decision.

Heaven help us that these people are even allowed a vote if they were so unaware of months and months and months of all pervading Eu Referendum Gumph every hour of the day.


Who can remember the esteemedd nobody Sir Nick Clegg screaming on TV that those pointing out the plans for an EU army were LIARS! And that claims of total integration into a single EU state were again LIES!

Well the only liar to emerge from that little lot is of course Mr Clegg as the EU ploughs on with it's formation of an EU army amidst repeated statements of intent that total integration is the way forward for the EU and must happen.


I'm sure that those rewhingers banging on about lies, lies and more lies must really hate it that so many of us remember the lies that were told in 1973 and the referendum in 1975 that the EC was just a common trading market which could generate jobs for the UK.

They clearly forgot the bit about years later forming an EU superstate plus the formation of an EU parliament etc etc.

Some warned what was going to happen and of course eventually did happen but were called LIARS! Just as those advocating a Leave vote were and still are by rewhingers including the poster in the missive above.

I suppose that they also missed the treacherous Edward Heath admitting a couple of years before his death that he used British fishing waters to buy membership and that he had lied to the British public as to the true nature of what he had taken the UK into because in his own words ' it was the only way he could swing it'


We had no vote to join the Common market of course if you recall.


So all in all a touch rich of some to scream Liars, Liars, Liars at those stating the obvious in regards to the EU when the whole nation was lied to when we were initially taken in without a vote.


I'm more than hapy to debate all day long on this subject and am more than confident that my knowledge of the undemocratic scam that is the EU will more than counter any amount of rewhinging.

http://www.konbini.com/wp-content/bl...xo-810x506.jpg

Yes, no wonder Boris looks confused - the message is not really clear!

A long term plan and post Brexit, we are thinking of buying a camper van in the UK, living in it and driving to Armenia and onto the Black Sea, then selling it. I read that after Brexit, the EU will no longer recognise the UK driving license and we will need Carnets for every border we cross. I am wondering if the negotiations will involve recognising UK licences or not for truckers and other drivers. Who has the crystal ball? :D

Lets be a bit careful about all this, no one had to vote, those who voted did so for their own reasons and that's it and it is neither helpful or intelligent to denigrate the other side. Or are we perhaps only going to let those who we agree with vote. Chris S.

That is an interesting point Phil, an EU notice issued last month, the European commission said: “A driving licence issued by the United Kingdom will no longer be recognised by the member states.”

We may well need the IDP for £5.50 a pop available from the PO, AA and RAC, also could have implications for insurance back to the green card?

Hmm Brit DL no longer recognised-that would be a bit of a shot in the foot if its like for like. Still Im sure the EU will blunder on. Chris S.

The problems arise when people take sides after relying on the output of media platforms, all of which are committed to various outcomes.

Statements get made that then need to be proven or even defended, but cannot be – the events not having yet taken place. Better to dig deeper and to offer sources for opinions given rather than fall for the temptation of insisting on a view based on a guess that understandably draws passion. Much that happens behind the scenes that could be illuminating is not released for a variety of reasons.

Much rabid talk currently about the ‘no deal’ scenario, particularly around the alleged lack of work or preparation for cliff-edge catastrophes of Armageddon proportions.

Learned over the weekend about the appointment of a chap called Crawford Falconer to the position of Chief Trade Negotiation Advisor at the Department of International Trade. Follow the link below for details of his CV and particularly his role and responsibilities – to the best of my knowledge none of which has been reported on. What an eye-opener. Well, hopefully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Falconer, then the embedded link.

It would be comical if it weren't so tragic. I see a headline from today that Hunt - the foreign secretary who momentarily forgot which country his own wife is from - is urging France and Germany to "overrule" Barnier in order to avoid a no deal outcome. Never mind the fact that Barnier takes his guidance from the heads of the EU27. This just after the farce of May setting in motion a series of visits to individual countries to try to negotiate with them directly, immediately after Barnier explained that there's no point in trying to negotiate with individual countries directly ... Never mind the amount of wasted time, effort and political capital spent by the government earlier in the month on thrashing out which version of proposals they would be presenting for rejection. Ah well, at least that got Boris & Dave off our screens for a while.

In terms of its international standing, the UK is now somewhere between a laughing stock and a lame donkey. The promises have gone from "we'll give the NHS £350,000,000 extra per week" to "don't worry, we won't run out of food or medicine, especially now that we've asked the supermarkets to organise it all for us by changing their entire business model".

Still, at least the lorry park outside Dover will be visible from space, so that's something. A glorious future awaits.

Simple really,We have the EU who are determind to make it as difficult for us to leave because they are frightened of loosing our money which will stop the Gravy Train,They are also scared of other countries following.

And secondly we have a PM who is at heart a Remainer.

Time to get rid of both.

All good points and notice how the so called ‘Brexit Dividend’ of £350,000,000 extra per week for the NHS, has now morphed into a Health Tax - details in the forthcoming budget in November - can’t wait!

Hilarious Andy! Remind me, who was it in the campaign, and names and citations would help, before the referendum that said that bit about, to use your inverted commas, “we’ll give the NHS £350million extra per week” and “don’t worry, we won’t run out of food or medicine etc, etc”?

By the way, “the lorry park that will be visible from space”, well done! On the 6 o’clock news just an hour ago there was a segment from a traffic helicopter (a BBC one as well!) showing that lorry park is there even now! Miles and miles and miles of it. Has it started already? No, wait a minute, it’s been like that since the tunnel opened! Perhaps it’s just the advance queue for next March 29! Oh no, it’s the empties going back for more exports to eager UK and (from Holyhead) to Irish markets!

Ah of course, sticking it on the side of a bus meant it WASN'T meant to be taken seriously. No siree bob. Good of them to support the struggling advertising industry by spending the No campaign money on a joke ... except the joke's on us.

Maybe I imagined all that stuff about any notion that we might need to stockpile food and medicine., or the disastrous impact on the UK of leaving the UK with no deal, on which Rees-Mogg et al seem so keen. Same as the stuff about the lorry park. Still, at least the car industry stands to be in much better shape.

So 'simpletons' voting no caused all this? I applaud your superior intellect.


37% of 'the people' voted to leave the EU and they are obviously the only people who matter! To suggest they were voting for more jobs, an end to austerity, reduced immigration and more NHS funding rather than anything at all to do with the EU would quite frankly be treasonous wouldn't it!

Just to jog memories!!
None other than BJ himself

Whichever way you look at Brexit in or out it looks like a total mess at the moment especially Trump has started a tariff war, where does this leave us with our ambition to trade worldwide..:}

Oh Andy, you really should widen your reading matter if you want to get the full s.p!

All your links except one are to the Guardian! Only read by City bankers and lawyers! Infamous for its traditional habit of distorting facts to suit a particular agenda! Amongst many others, I recommend a subscription to the Spectator for a faithful balance of views. Since 1828, a wide ranging collection of commentators giving views with widely divergent opinions! Cheap as well! Or plenty of on line outlets!

The one link you gave that isn’t to the G. is a direct and unchallenged quote from Dominic Grieve! If ever a man wasn’t trusted to bend towards pragmatism...

You make no reference to the earlier post regarding the appointment of a trade negotiator with a proven track record in the field who mysteriously has received vanishingly small mention in the press. Why not?

The bus! You blandly rephrase the wording to suit an agenda and then use quotation marks to imply, no, accuse, B. Johnson of lying! Nuff said.

The placard! In a meeting B.J. did not organise. Photo shopped by others? That’s a curiously small stage! Embarrassing? Yes, and largely by over-enthusiastic enemies! Very different from what was actually both said and on the side of a bus!

I can only repeat my earlier request that evidence of the man himself or anyone else saying the words that you said they said! The facts, just the facts! I’m sure that with the right goggles on I could misinterpret almost anything! Obviously, always with the best of intentions!

Thanks Stephen! Not the bus then. So, are you saying B.J. did say what Andy said?

Amongst many others Gordon, links available if required, I give you actual verbatim remarks and commentary from a huge, huge, market spokesman!

This from Toshimitsu Motegi, Japanese economy minister:

‘Tokyo would spare no efforts to support the UK’ in joining the 11 member group Trans-Pacific Partnership trade bloc. ‘I’d like to welcome your country’s expression of interest in acceding to the TPP. Your expression of interest is indeed a great encouragement to our efforts to attach importance to the free-trade system based on rules and to fight protectionism. Japan will not spare any effort to support the UK, including providing relevant information, and acting as an intermediary to you in relation to other TPP member countries’.

This is just one of many expressions of not just willingness but eagerness to negotiate trade deals with UK post B. These unreported meetings do not receive the exposure you might expect. They are of course confidential and, not least, outside the EU rules! I bet you won’t find it in the Guardian!

Surely it’s about time the supporters started to shout the truth and join in.

The potential delays highlighted at Dover seem to ignore what will happen at Calais. Felixstowe, Britain's largest container port, is also ignored, so too is Rotterdam, Le Harve and Southampton. Delays over here will be mirrored over there. If such delays are going to happen why is it that every advert is for a Volvo, BMW, Audi or Renault. They seem to be fairly confident in our ability to continue to buy their products.

As for the potential of no flights over UK airspace, this would be catastrophic for the rest of the world, not just us and the continent. Remember what happened during the not too distant Icelandic volcano eruption? The recent comments by the Irish on this subject also beggars belief; especially as the RAF protect their airspace from those pesky Russians. Suppose they could always call on the Luftwaffe.

Except they only have 4 operational Typhoons. Oops.

Well Ray I guess they buy quite a bit of scotch whiskey, used Levi jeans and what else do we send over to Japan..though they say have a German car job in USA and Japanese wife then you will have arrived :D I recall trips to Tokyo and Osaka and seeing plenty of homeless people living around train stations in would could be described as top quality card board boxes, and twice in one trip was told "Yank go home".

Joking apart, I do hope we can stand up after the wrench away from the EU, I always thought for years we were putting too many eggs in one basket trade wise so to speak..

You are right of course Gary. Leo Varadka’s rather silly threat to prevent UK flights through Republic air space embarrassed a lot of people. Including himself. Particularly those concerned with International agreements regarding air traffic. It’s beyond his control or influence and absolutely nothing to do with EU matters. His view of world affairs seems parochial to say the least.

And - more local situations: For instance, and I know opinions from this side of the sea are controversial, I wonder if he is aware that the question of a ‘border’ is moot?

It’s a trumped up (no pun intended) Joker of no import. With UK out, the question of a border is a problem for the EU – not UK! Any border would have to be paid for, responsible for, constructed and maintained by EU together with Ireland. We are not required to post officials there, it’s for the EU to police it. We are not keeping them out, they are doing that! That is, if they want to go there. There are thousands of miles of borders around the EU with little or no problems, why not now?

I’m not saying we can’t work together, but to offload the problem to UK as a ploy in a game is just wrong. If we could get away from this self-defeating negative view of absolutely everything and adopt a cooperative position, everybody could win without the bickering.

I presume you mean those worn out/road-kill jeans that folks think are cool. Be great if Japan bought every single pair available. Then burned them.

I've no doubt the future is rosy, it's the birth pains in getting there that's causing the problems. That's the trouble with a yes/no binary - you'll never please everyone by definition. The hard part is weeding out the misquotes, lies and half truths. Good luck.

Oh dear, the NI/ROI Border issue is the ‘inconvenience truth’ that leavers just can’t handle or get their head around.
Since it was the UK that decided to leave the EU and not the other way round, then the Government (already acknowledged by TM) has the bigger responsibility to find an acceptable solution.

Again I'm afraid you are denigrating leave voters unnecessarily. Probably best not to insult them with allegations of limited intelligence! Good natured banter is fine but there is a limit! Unless of course you mean me. That doesn't matter, I can take it!

Acceptable to whom Stephen? Proposals have now been rejected twice by Barnier! It won't take much longer to unravel completely, he can only bluff for so long. Don't forget, nothing's agreed until everything is! What do you think happens on the borders all across Eastern Europe?

Agreement could be reached but when you are faced with a belligerent and intransigent so-called negotiator (er, exactly what has he negotiated?) sometimes you have be firm. We all know they are stubbornly refusing to bend in the hope of dissuading similar moves by other members. That fear is tangible and we certainly don't want to exacerbate that but we do have our own interests to consider.

By the way, still waiting for the answer to the question in post 71.
Good here, isn't it?

Oh dear - more reading required, wraymond. The UK government is a signatory to the Belfast Agreement, aka the Good Friday Agreement, an international treaty which is registered with the UN. I know you don't like my suggestions for reading material, so perhaps a simple wikipedia link will help to clarify things for you a little.

Because the Good Friday Agreement binds the British government on several points of law in Northern Ireland, it has de facto become a part of Constitution of the United Kingdom. Legal commentator David Allen Green described it as "a core constitutional text of the UK, and of Ireland [...] of more everyday importance than hallowed instruments such as, say, Magna Carta of 1215 or the 1689 Bill of Rights".[29]

Your assertion that the problem of the border is "moot", a "Joker of no import", and "a problem for the EU, not the UK!" displays either a profound ignorance - i.e. lack of knowledge/understanding - of anything to do with Northern Ireland, or an arrogance concerning your fellow UK citizens. In a spirit of kindness, I hope it is the former.

On Boris - I did not, as you wilfully assert, accuse Boris of lying in my previous post. However I have no difficulty in referring to him as a liar - he was sacked from the Times for making up a quote, and sacked by Michael Howard for lying about an affair. It is a matter of public record that the man is indeed a liar.

Well, I was referring to the limit intelligence of people like JRM, and those who Hold hard Brexit views.
I have been called a remoaner many times on this forum, but did not respond.

Ah yes, answer to post 71:
Check out the following about Boris - seems very clear to me.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-...stimate-2018-1

Thanks for that. I was of course aware of the agreement and not only of its importance but was in support of it.

Your second paragraph is really quite rude and unnecessary. Calling another profoundly ignorant or arrogant may be accepted in other internet places but on here? Thought we were better than that. However, that is typical of the divide I guess.

The point remains: the responsibility for border control following departure falls jointly (UK-EU) and is not in the gift of the UK parliament. As far as I am aware, the EU has given no indication of its intentions in that regard but they have plenty to say about UK tardiness.

BJ: Context is everything. We were talking about the 'bus’ and specifically what you said he said. You used speech marks which everywhere else in the world indicates what was actually said, word for word.

Your remarks were a deliberate rephrasing of what he said in attempt to give a false impression and your strong implication was that he was lying in order to win an argument. It’s there to be seen.

As I asked then, give details of him saying what you said he said, or withdraw! Offering second hand reports of similar phoney tricks from avowed critics of his just doesn’t do it!

I'm no friend of the man, his attitude annoys me, but the truth is the truth.

You have given no reference to show BJ said what you said he said! Those comments are from anti-Brex publications parroting earlier reports similar to yours! Repetition of the original falsehood does not make it true! Show me verbatim accounts of him saying what you said he said – not just hostile opinion. There’s enough of that already.

You were not called that by me, as far as I am aware!

You may not like or respect JRM but there’s not much doubt about his intelligence! He has had the better of every interviewer including hostile ones (virtually all of them!) I’ve seen and can hold his own in exalted company. Even Andrew Neill failed to discomfort him! And as far as your belief that those who have the same stupidity to vote the way they did..... What, all of them?

I’ve no wish to defend a scoundrel in any way, show me the evidence and I’ll shout about it. But please, if you value credibility...!

Wraymond.

You accuse me of misquoting Boris Johnson. I suggest you double-check my post #62 to see where I quoted Boris, or anyone at all. (I also suggest you double-check all of the generally accepted uses of inverted commas and quotation marks.)

You choose to re-interpret my post to suit your own point-scoring; you attempt to patronise me for citing one of the few British national newspapers not owned by right-wing oligarchs; you say you are well-informed about the peace agreement here, yet are happy to contemptuously dismiss the issue of the border as "a trumped up (no pun intended) Joker of no import": and you accuse me of being rude?

With the whiff of hypocrisy and condescension from your recent posts, I see little point in continuing. Still, hope springs eternal in the human breast ...

NB I am neither a City banker nor a lawyer. Try reading the Guardian a bit more - you may find it enlightening. I recommend Martin Kettle's thoughtful article from this morning as a starting point. I also suggest the Irish Times and the Belfast Telegraph.
Good night.

Right then lads , lets all calm down , have a nice cup of tea and wait for it all to blow over . :}

There is a very simple solution to trade across the ROI/NI border. The elected sovereign government of the UK negotiates with the elected sovereign government of the ROI. Simple.

One other thing no e in scotch whisky. A certain taxi driver is probably fuming at the insult.

Have a nice day.

Please Keep it civil Ladies and Gentlemen, otherwise you know what will happen.

BW: Can't think of who you mean. Or even if such a person continues to drop in.

To bring some clarity to a somewhat confused and foggy corner, I offer an up to date assessment of prospects, profitability, and progress from an unimpeachable source.

Published today, in an entirely unexpected coincidence, and following the latest intervention by Mark Carney Gov.B E, and by a financial journalist of long term experience and award winning commentary, it is a City insider’s view of our situation.

The link goes to the article so its veracity is unquestionable and the author identifiable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...got-wrong.html

And the author himself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Brummer

And there's more.

Should there be requests for yet more good news to liven the soul and calm shredding nerves try:

/www.economistsforfreetrade.com/News/civil-servants-totally-misleading-public-on-cost-of-leaving-customs-union/

These are eminent people, not mercenary politicians looking to feather nests.
If that’s less than encouraging to the doubters then we’re stuffed.

That is the Daily Mail however, very Brexit I believe.

You are correct. In June the Daily Mail appointed a new editor Paul Dacre, an Etonian and pro remainer. Maybe the pro Brexit stance will change and he could become more sympathetic to labour, but needs to do something to improve the mails readership, mostly in the 65+ age group to a wider audience. The Daily Mails owners the Rothermere’s live mostly in France and are said to take a liberal attitude to Brexit. Living in France, Brexit won’t affect them much.

More from project fear with the rise in interest rates and Carney saying its highly likely that Britain will leave the EU without having made a deal.....

And what of it! ;)

Yes, it is! And we all know the DM direction of travel. That’s why I included the link to the journalist. He is widely experienced in international finance, economics and business and with no advertised particular leanings or previous hyperbole.

It’s also why I followed with the next post and link to an organisation that, given its members and their associations, one might think they would be in the remain camp. A balance is required and direct and accurate attribution is vital.

So to conclude: the links show professional learned opinion from what you might expect to be from the remain side and are from reputable sources. They might not be my own view but then again they might. A narrow perspective can only limit the view!

If we have no deal, than neither does the EU. Wonder where they'll stack all of the goods we buy from them. I strongly suspect that that there is not enough slack in the respective markets to take up the excess.

I'm surprised we haven't been told of power cuts as well as food and medical shortages; I mean we buy all of electricity from abroad don't you know? Well according to some contributors on various other sites I visit.

We shall see what the dawn of the 30th of March shall bring?

To misquote Shakespeare:

Barnier, Tusk, Junker, Macron and Merkel should be aware of the Ides of March and the death of the EU.

Some may find this of interest:

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en

If "we buy all of electricity from abroad don't you know?" is meant to be ironic, it may interest you to know that in Northern Ireland there is an all-island electricity market, which is one of the things that is threatened by a no-deal Brexit. The contingency plans are, um, interesting ...

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-37108625.html

Government officials fear thousands of electricity generators may need to be requisitioned from the Army and put on barges in the Irish Sea to keep Northern Ireland's lights on in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit.

A document drawn up by officials said the plan would see equipment commandeered from the military and flown back from Nato-led operations in countries such as Afghanistan, according to a report in the Financial Times.
The 'worst-case scenario' is part of a private Government paper outlining negative consequences of the UK leaving the European Union without any deal.
Northern Ireland and the Republic share a single energy market but UK officials fear leaving the EU without an exit deal would lead to energy providers in the south cutting off power to the north because Britain would no longer be part of Europe's electricity market.
To avoid blackouts, the outlandish plan would see thousands of generators taken from the military. One official told the FT that the idea of electricity barges in the Irish Sea was one of the most "gob-smacking" elements of the contingency planning.
"I can't believe this hasn't really been noticed by the wider world," he told the newspaper.
A Government source also told the paper: "We are working hard on a solution.
"We have made good progress on this and a n
Government officials fear thousands of electricity generators may need to be requisitioned from the Army and put on barges in the Irish Sea to keep Northern Ireland's lights on in the event of a 'no deal' Brexit.

A document drawn up by officials said the plan would see equipment commandeered from the military and flown back from Nato-led operations in countries such as Afghanistan, according to a report in the Financial Times.
The 'worst-case scenario' is part of a private Government paper outlining negative consequences of the UK leaving the European Union without any deal.
Northern Ireland and the Republic share a single energy market but UK officials fear leaving the EU without an exit deal would lead to energy providers in the south cutting off power to the north because Britain would no longer be part of Europe's electricity market.
To avoid blackouts, the outlandish plan would see thousands of generators taken from the military. One official told the FT that the idea of electricity barges in the Irish Sea was one of the most "gob-smacking" elements of the contingency planning.
"I can't believe this hasn't really been noticed by the wider world," he told the newspaper.
A Government source also told the paper: "We are working hard on a solution.
"We have made good progress on this and a number of other issues during recent negotiations… however, as a responsible Government we will continue to prepare for all scenarios, including the highly unlikely outcome that we leave the EU without any deal next March."

A problem for the EU, not the UK, I'm sure we can all agree.

Another piece of information to mull over - especially for anyone with ongoing health issues, or approaching the latter stages of life when healthcare is likely to become an ever more pressing issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-brexit-nhs-eu

Fears for NHS as apprenticeships fail to plug gaps left by Brexit brain drain

The promise was 1,000 trainee nurses a year, but data shows a serious shortfall for registered and nursing associate programmes

The total number of people starting NHS apprenticeships has fallen by more than a third in the past three years, raising new concerns about shortages of key staff such as nurses after Brexit.
Figures released by the Department for Education show a 36% drop in the number of people taking up NHS apprenticeships between 2015/16 and 2017/18, with take-up of such positions falling way short of government predictions.
Despite ministerial pledges to plug recruitment gaps with the help of 1,000 apprentice nurses a year, the official data also shows that in January 2018 just 20 apprentices started the registered nurse degree apprenticeship while just 10 people signed up for new “nursing associate” training in the same period.
Shadow education secretary Angela Rayner said: “When they scrapped bursaries for nurses, the Tories claimed that apprentices would plug the staffing shortfall. Now, just weeks later, they have admitted that far from apprenticeships increasing in the NHS, they have fallen by a third. We are now missing tens of thousands of nurses on hospital wards, applications have plummeted and patients are suffering the consequences. The government is failing the people who deserve decent care, and the people who deserve decent jobs.”
Record numbers of nurses and midwives from other EU countries quit Britain last year, fuelling fears that a Brexit brain drain would leave the NHS severely short of staff.
A total of 3,962 such staff from the European Economic Area (EEA) left the Nursing and Midwifery Council register between 2017 and 2018. This was 28% more than the 3,081 who left in 2016-17. The number of EU nurses applying to work in the UK fell by 96% in the 12 months following the Brexit vote, from 1,304 to 46.
Former health secretary Jeremy Hunt set out plans last year to address the recruitment problem, suggesting that 2,500 homegrown nursing “associate apprenticeships” would be in place by April this year. But ministers now admit that only 1,018 had started by that date – a shortfall of over 60%. Overall, the government had a target of recruiting 100,000 NHS apprentices by 2020. Based on the latest data, Labour says this target will be missed by over 26,000 places.

Andy - please be aware that your (considered) contributions will be branded as ‘Fake News’, and/or ‘Project Fear’.

There I was thinking that the ‘inconvenient truth’ of The NI/ROI Border issue was going to be complicated to sort out, but not so.
A solution is staring us in the face all along in a previous post:


“There is a very simple solution to trade across the ROI/NI border. The elected sovereign government of the UK negotiates with the elected sovereign government of the ROI. Simple.”


At the end of the day we will get a Brexit that the Politicians will eventually vote for, and end up pleasing no-one.
By any measure it’s a mess, and the ordinary person will pay the price.

1973, 0% voted to join the EEC, not asked
1975, 0% voted for EU political union, public were told it was EEC
1992 0% voted for Maastricht
2004 0% voted for open borders
2007 0% voted for Lisbon, not asked
2016 52% voted leave:shrug:

Income Tax rates from 1975 - 2018 have varied considerably
0% voted - not asked.

Possible Peoples vote in 2019 on Brexit Deal.
Outcome unknown: shrug

Very well said

Yes, not long to wait and then we will all see if the doom mongering will be realised or not. By choice I would rather stay in Europe, but do we really want to be members of a club whose other members despise us and only want us for our money?
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Sad affair
 

We voted to leave based upon historic emotions and lies hence the younger the voter, the greater the % of remain vote Despite all the economic evidence and experts stating we will suffer economically we voted to take back what we had already and as the picture becomes clearer we need a final vote on the final outcome given how close the original was and the 1.4m new voters which have no say in this event next March but will suffer the effects. .... The will of the people! #FinalVote

You won’t know this as you are a relatively new member. In the lead up to the vote, on this forum, the voters in the club who owned up to it were predominantly pro Brexit. Of those, several were UKIP. How they must have been gutted when Farage turned Chicken. A few of us owned up to voting remain. We are still in the minority. I accept the outcome of the vote, deal or no deal. It’s democracy.

The dogs of Brexit bullied and intimidated the remainers on the forum. They ganged up like a pack dogs using tactics whereby they would twist and tailor the remainers posts to their own ends. Some went with the wind like sheep, but others were very clever at it, whilst arguing with “copy and paste” or mimicking eloquence and supporting each other. It was sad to witness.

Around that time, some remainers left the club, traumatised and they have not been back. The bully boys are still in the club and if there is another vote, no doubt their dogs will try and send any remain voters packing. But maybe not.......

I think there won’t be a second vote and the moderators will be on the case. When these political threads get personal, they are now closed. During the referendum I had to block 4 of the dogs, but since then, I decided that life is too short and now only one is on my ignore list, although I did wish him a very happy birthday :}

That’s the most awful exposure of rule contravention I’ve seen on here. No moderator involvement, no censure. Are we no longer concerned about outward impression to prospective and, in this case, new members?

There has been no bullying or intimidation (it’s on-line for Pete’s sake) in this thread or any of those leading up to or since ‘the vote’ as suggested. If it is thought there have been why not indicate them (in context, of course)?

How political allegiances can be identified beats me. Is that another plank to walk on? Traumatised? Adults? Oh come on.. Alleging the subversive preparation of 'plots' for the future?

There has been no ‘pack of dogs’, what a way to refer to fellow club members, if only from the point of view of ‘manners’, Rule 1, and the poster has made frequent requests or attempts to get threads closed because he does not like the subject. Suspicions of mischief-making abound.

There have been opposing arguments of course but none of the kind referred to and when things have got overheated the mods have closed threads, usually understandably. Allowing this thread to continue has shown considerable tolerance and forebearance by mods but allowing the post in question to remain is a disgrace.

It is a totally false and obnoxious impression from a frustrated malcontent. Shameful and embarrassing.

Beat me to it. I was planning on allaying the fears of those concerned about power cuts, but now.

Those threads are archived and locked, but clearly name calling becomes you. How sad is that.

Sorry BW, maybe I reacted hastily. Then again, I suspect that may have been the intention. I confess to being shocked by the ungentlemanly language and conduct. I hope the base intervention (my perception) does not succeed. I do admit it has caused me to examine my own language and conduct so maybe there was some merit there after all. However, surprise, I remain confident.

Okay, I can apologise and do to all dog lovers and to those affected by my comments about the dogs of Brexit, you know who are. I am after all humbled, but not beaten down. I am not here to settle an old score or to get the thread closed. Members are wised up enough to make their own judgements and so are the moderators.

Respectfully, it's the Leave argument that is devoid of substance. So many of the 'benefits' that have been heralded by Brexiteers have been shot-down. It's all a promise of magic and good times when tens of thousands are already suffering and we haven't even left the EU yet. The Remain argument is about fairness and concern and, may I add, common sense. The Leave argument is, decoded, we won and we'll sort the mess out later.

Leave is all about magnifying EU imperfections and ignoring what's good about the EU and shows complete and, I'd say, malicious contempt for reality and that's very bad for the country's future.

Thread closed.

There are loads of places to discuss this topic. Do it there.