Coolant Leak Numpty Questions!
 

I have a serious coolant leak and would like to attempt to repair myself, but have never done this before.

I've recently noticed a smell of coolant when the temperature hits 100 (Hans sensor) and there would be a small puddle of coolant under the car.
Just the other day there was way more than previously, maybe a litre, so its gotten worse.

I'm hoping it's a leaking hose , the bottom radiator hose,PCH119290, is that the correct part number?
If it turns out to be other than this then i will put everything back and drop it in the garage.

I also have Kaisers metal housing.

I don't car stands for need to attempt this from the front rather than from under.

I've taken the front end off and fan and had a look inside and can see spillage all around PCH119290, i'll take a picture tomorrow.

I plan to take this hose off to inspect it further.

Questions are.

Should i run the car with the front end off to confirm where the leak is coming from that hose?
Will i be able to replace that hose from the front if i need to?


Or any suggestions how to tackle this differently?

I'm sure i'll have a few other questions as i get further in.
Thanks in advance

Yes, because it might not be. The leak could be coming from higher up, for example from the expansion tank cap. On the other hand, the bleed screw may be damaged.

Start by mopping up the spillage and ensuring all coolant components are dry then run the engine and watch carefully.

Simon

Check the undersides of all hoses because some of them rub against others and can/will eventually wear through. It's not easy to spot when looking down into the engine bay - you have to view them from underneath. (V6).

When you say the front end off I guess you mean the bumper.---:smilie_re:

It will be much easier to find a leak that way. It could be something simple like a hose clip needs tightening up.

As you don't want to get under the car then arm yourself with a mirror to look around corners.




Joined here in 2007.---- 13-1/2 years on the forum.--:bowdown:--One of the longer serving members. Have you had the same car all that time ??

Hose PCH119280 engine to oil cooler is one of the hoses that rubs on a V6.

Number 3 here - https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID001584

Pay special attention to the large hoses running near the airbox. I once had a leak under the protective sheath which took ages to locate. I noticed a dampness on the hose and it was only by cutting away the sheath that I saw the small split. Another clue was that this particular hose had lost its rubberised feel, instead it had a sticky feel to it.

Regards

Can see coolant dripping from here, starts even before the engine got hot, around 78 degrees.
What is the part that is leaking from, or are the pipes above that dripping onto it?

From the picture, it looks like the coolant is dripping down from above the A/C pump then onto the oil cooler.

I would look higher up than those two components and see what you can spot.

Thanks,

Any suggestions on what pipes i should be looking for that are in the position to drip on those?
Going higher would mean looking in from above not below?
Any pictures on the site?
Would i be looking at pipes PEH101210, PCH119250 and PCH119270?

I'm using Rimmers as a reference for the pipes, also with it leaking before the thermostat opens narrow down which pipes to check?
As it started to leak at about 78, i think, i'll check that again.

Looking through top of engine i can see a pooling of coolant appear to be on top of engine block?
Looks in a very difficult position to access, any suggestion to the cause of it, or where to it further?

Hope these pictures show it properly

Further inspections .
I mopped up all that pooling of coolant and ran the car again.
The pooling was under Kaiser’s casing but the pooling did not come back straight away, small bit after a while though.
There was an area that dripping started immediately I started the car, I can see this is dropping onto top a/c pump etc.
Hard to describe but it is directly above the a/c pump.
It was difficult to photo, I had to squeeze the phone in.
Also hard so see where it is coming from though.
Any suggestions?
Do I need to take more engine bits off to see?

Maybe a clearer photo, torch shining on it.

If I need to search the merky depths of a cluttered engine bay I wait until dark and using an led torch with a small telescopic inspection mirror you will see much more . With a torch in the dark,
Warm up engine switch off . Remove key
Gloves and eye protection and have a good look
All the best

Hello Joe,

This is interesting. From your photographs you appear to have a classic case of 'O' ring leakage into the 'V'. This is what happens with the plastic pipes and thermostat housing but nobody has yet had the same trouble with Kaiser's metal version.

If you grasp the large diameter hose just before its connection to the top of the thermostat housing and give it a good tug back and forth, can you see any of Kaiser's parts moving or rocking?

Simon

Hi Simon,

I have experienced the leaking from Kaisers metal stat on my Dorchester red when it was owned by Shadysadie.

I could not get the base of the stat to seal as it would weep on occasion, we tried two metal stats, and the symptoms were the same with both.

The port in the block was checked and found to be ok.

Hi Simon,
I’ll get onto that, would the V still fill up with coolant when I run the car?
I ask this because with the car running I watched where the puddles were with a torch but saw no leakage near Kaiser’s casing, but there was a constant coolant drip above the a/c pump area.

Hi Joe,

Coolant in the 'V' really can only come from the 'O' rings. In the front right hand corner of the 'V' there is a gap through which pooled coolant can escape downwards. When this happened to me I saw drips in the oil filter area but water can get anywhere given the chance!

Please let us know whether you can detect any movement as I described.

Simon

Thanks Andy, that's very interesting. I currently have fitted a genuine X-Part 'stat housing which has been improved by the addition of three supporting legs at the base. It's possible that Nanjing or SAIC commissioned this but whoever it was clearly identified that there was a problem with movement.

Simon

Just gave that pipe a tug, and Kaisers part is rock solid.

As mentioned this coolant exploration will all be new to me, this is the first time i have visually even seen Kaiser part in situ, so please bear with me.

To confirm its the hose with the bleeder screw on it?
I could see it connected to Kaisers part with a jubilee clip.

Also area were i had cleaned up the pooled coolant is still bone dry, including below and behind the alternator, if that indicate's anything?

Is it a lot of work to take more parts off the top to get a closer look of where the leak is coming from?

OK that's good, but note Trikey's experience regarding a poor seal.

When my 'O' rings leaked I could never see it actually happening, only the aftermath. You've made a good start mopping up all the residue. Now it's just a matter of time and keen observation.

Simon

I know it’s a long shot but check the metal coolant pipes on the subframe, these can rust badly and I have seen one spray coolant upwards towards the front of the engine block.

I'll look there also, Thanks.
What was your solution to your leaking metal O rings?
Were there any similarities with my symptoms?

Just had another look today.
Heres what happened.
1.Turned car on and coolant almost instantly start to drip at a constant speed, i drop about every 10 seconds.
2.Looked in through manifold and the V was bone dry, even though dripping was happening.
3.Ran the car to get to 100 as this is when i thought a major loss of coolant occurred.
4.At around maybe 78 degrees i started to see coolant appearing in the V
5.Drip under car was still dripping at the same rate, had not speeded up.
6.The coolant was pooling on the drivers side section of the V of the car, also under the alternator, middle and right of V still bone dry, but still could not see where it was coming from.
7.Then i started seeing a tiny stream, very thin, of coolant seeming to come from the inlet gasket (drivers side) and sliding down to pool in the V, but when the V was initially filling with coolant this stream was not there/noticeable.
8.Ran car to 102, dripping speed did not speed up, neither did the stream of coolant into the V.
9.Turned car off, still dripping.

So it appears the manifold gasket is leaking?

Would this gasket do?
I need to buy if from close by as i'd like it in a hurry.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Inlet-Ma...MAAOSwrEJftIpJ

That looks identical to the ones I have fitted, but I also added a very thin smear of hylomar esp. around the water channels, this also helps stick the gaskets to the heads without them slipping when re-fitting the inlet manifold.

Regards

It will be better than just "do", it is the correct part number for your Rover! :D

When renewing mine (no leaks, just as a precaution after dismantling) I didn't use any additional sealant. Do tighten the screws progressively working from the centre outwards. The torque is 25 Nm.

Simon

Just purchased the gaskets, i'll attempt this next week, another task that i naively assumed would be a hose change to a bigger job of a gasket replacement!

Would this video on Youtube be the best bet on how to do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W7Gu3dPXaE

It's far from ideal Joe because the ancillaries installation in a ZS is different.

Looking at my notes you'll need to:
1. Drain cooling system.
2. Remove battery & its box plus air cleaner.
3. Remove plastic manifold chamber.
4. Remove ignition equipment and fuel rail.
You will now be able to reach the manifold screws. Is it the LH or RH you are removing?

There's a lot to do, particularly disconnecting all the attachments to the plastic manifold chamber, so please be absolutely certain that the source of your coolant leak really is the inlet manifold gasket before starting. Note that it's very uncommon on the KV6.

I'd recommend that you get hold of a Haynes manual if you can. It will be very helpful.

Simon

I've yet to find a Haynes manual useful at all! Nowhere near as good as they used to be many years ago, I threw mine away and got a Rover manual.

I know of at least two cases, Norwegian May's ex-car and Kaiser who I believe coats the paper gaskets in rattle can silver spray to make them waterproof. To compound problems Lovel has suggested the gaskets settle or at least if I remember correctly recommends re-setting the inlet manifold bolts after a while.

I like the "Haynes" type simplicity "of you will now be able to reach the manifold screws" :} - I only wish they were so easily accessible.

I would suggest the OP replaces both gaskets, if one is leaking the other might not be that far behind. I'd also suggest lifting the inlet manifold as one piece and not disturbing the fuel lines. In the past I've chosen to disconnect the fuel line at the back of the battery box rather than disturb any O rings.

I've got paper versions of all the manuals, and a digital Rave disc somewhere but I prefer the paper world. Would the Rave disc be a better alternative to Haynes?

Keep well

Thanks Simon
I have the Haynes and will go over that.
I'll replace both gaskets on the RH manifold.
Unsure of where else the leak could be coming for though.

Is there any updated posts about removing the manifold?
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=71171
Or is there a way to recover the photos missing from Mr Edda post?

Try this one: https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...ad.php?t=73306

Regards

Both? :shrug: The RH manifold has only one.

Regarding the fuel rail, I'd recommend disconnecting the supply pipe just after it rises from the tank into the engine bay. It's easier to separate than the joint over the LH bank which, according to some members' reports, is easily broken.
Also, I chose to lift the pipe off the injectors rather than removing the latter from the manifolds.
The most likely source is the 'O' ring on the thermostat housing base. Tracing leaks accurately is not easy and you'll be very demoralised if you go through all this work only to find that the manifold gasket wasn't leaking after all. :o

Simon

Thanks Simon
Taking all your advice on board
I will be replacing the gaskets on both the inlets, do the inlet O rings need to be replaced also?

Getting used to being demoralised when trying repairs, never turns out exactly as i first think.

I'm basing my thoughts on the gaskets rather than the thermostat base as i can see a tiny stream of coolant traversing the V incline on the far left causing pooling, but there is no pooling near the thermostat area.
Where i can see, the V area has ribbing which creates small enclosures (hard to explain) so each enclosure fills up with coolant independently, the enclosure near the thermostat is still dry.

It could be where the thermostat pipe enters the engine block, that is the area that fills up first, but i can not see it dripping into that.

I would not be surprised if what i'm saying is incorrect.

I'll have another look before i start on the gaskets.

The other part that leads me to believe it may be the gasket is that the leak starts immediately i start the car, dripping onto the A/C pump, but the V are is dry at this stage, meaning its the flow into the engine that is where the leak is coming from?

If it was the thermostat base the V would fill up then drip down the front?

As you mentioned fluid mechanics is very hard to understand.

I there any other component i should look at that would explain the dripping down the front?

These descriptions/observations are all coming from a bloke who has never looked into an engine before :}
But happy and eager to learn.

Bit of a video on Youtube of the leak if this helps.
https://youtu.be/b3CvnmDs-qs

Hi Joe and thanks for the clarification. Funnily enough, I fully recognise your description of the small enclosures of coolant in the 'V'! ;)
Well you're certainly diving into the deep end! :D

Here are a few more things which hopefully will save you time.
You'll need to remove the plenum access panel to reach two screws securing the plastic inlet chamber support brackets to the RH camshaft cover. Allow plenty of time and several cups of tea for this tricky operation.
You will need a flat-bladed blunt tool to release the plastic inlet chamber from the manifolds, it's a very tight fit.
Remove the LH manifold first and refit it last (this is because the RH manifold rear lower screw is inaccessible otherwise).
Unless they're visibly damaged, the aluminium manifold to plastic inlet chamber seals can be re-used.
Make detailed notes as you go. There's a lot to do and you'll never remember it all when it comes to reassembling.

Simon

I’ve done about five thermostat changes and whereas the first one was done as described by Simon I quickly learnt that the fuel line O rings do not enjoy being moved. By all means follow Simon’s advice on doing one section at a time but be prepared for possible grief afterwards. Or lift the two halves as one without disturbing the fuel lines other than disconnecting the long pipe up behind the battery box. By all means work on one section first and that will allow more access to the other as there is some give between the two.

I’d also like to point out that the plastic upper manifold is secured at the back by two L shaped brackets which are best accessed by removing the inspection plate on the bulkhead, although if it’s been off sometime previously then the brackets are often “lost” or broken. The manifold will not come off with these brackets in place, there is a convenient shoulder on the plastic manifold near where the throttle body sits which you can use to pry it loose rather than using chisels against the soft metal.

Regards

Hi Mike,

I did that too! :D Apologies if my earlier description was unclear.

Simon

Thanks all for the tips, been a bit busy lately so intend to tackle this soon.


Sorry Simon,
is it possible to explain this a bit further to me, got my head around most everything except this bit, are there any other threads with pictures of what you mean?

I don't know of any pictures I'm afraid but you'll see where the fuel supply hose meets the solid pipe at the rear of the engine compartment. Just squeeze the two tabs together by hand and the joint will separate. This is the MG Rover method and safer than the Haynes alternative. Incidentally, I have never experienced any residual fuel pressure but it's best to wrap the connection in a rag just in case.

To leave the injectors in place (they're very tight), slide off the little clips securing the fuel rail to them. They all release towards the 'V' except cylinders 4 & 6 which are withdrawn away from it. Be careful not to lose them! The fuel rail can then be lifted off the injectors whilst overcoming some resistance from the 'O' ring seals. There may be a slight fuel leak.

Joe, I'm still concerned that for "a bloke who has never looked into an engine before" you are tackling a complicated job here. I think you'd be wise to seek the practical help of a friend local to you with engine maintenance experience.

Simon

Thanks for your concern Simon.
I'll go slow and if it gets to a part thats too much i'll stop and put it all back together, mostly i'm researching at the moment to see what it totally involves, i've get plenty of time on my hands now and will take it in small stages.

How do these look?

First photo the far left of the photo is where i thought the leak was coming from, even dis-assembled it was still trickling coolant into the same part of the V, far right was not trickling, seems to be also build-up on the gasket around this area, does this confirm the gasket is the issue?

Second photo, is the red bits dried coolant, should i clean this out before re-assembling?
What else should I use to remove the old gaskets and clean the surfaces?

Congratulations on the dismantling Joe! :clap:

Although I cannot expand thumbnail photos to look in detail, the gasket is certainly in a mess surrounding no. 1 cylinder and the light blue seal appears to be damaged. Have you any idea how this might have happened?

To answer your questions, yes, I always clean components before reassembly. I have an aerosol of this stuff, Victor Reinz gasket remover. Above all, don't use any sharp tools as the aluminium will be damaged.

When you refit the alloy manifold, be sure to tighten progressively the screws from the centre outwards finishing with a torque wrench. You don't want to compromise your new gasket and shorten its life. The setting is 25 Nm and no more! ;)

Simon

I've enlarged the pictures bit, no idea why one photo is showing upside down, tried a few times to fix it, no luck.
I have no idea how this happened, hoping members could shed some light on it?
Is there any engine components on that side that could cause damage to the seal from the outside, leaking inwards?
I'm purchasing a torque wrench and understand the tightening of the bolts in sequence.

I was also getting low petrol milage , would this have been the cause?

We can only guess of course but I wonder if someone before you has over-tightened the manifold screws thus compressing the gasket sealant to the point where it eventually failed.

Whenever I've renewed the manifold gaskets I've always observed the correct torque and I've never had a problem with them. I buy the MGR part and I don't paint them or add any additional sealing products. :wink2:

Simon

Simon is always lucky. It seems.
I paint mine, with normal silver paint that you would use on a gate. Both sides.
That is an old trick, which also works on head gaskets.
The problem with the green original Rover seals are, that the paper will let water through, so the blue or green silicone line is absolutely useless.
As there are one water passage with water (high pressure) and one channel of the inlet (vacuum) very close to each other, the conditions are ideal for water to seep from the cooling system into the inlet and thus into the cylinders at the corners.
I have had several instances of that, it is, I would say, a common problem.
I have just looked at your pictures, and they confirm, again, what is stated above. The original gaskets are not up to the job. That is really simple!

Thanks for the pictures. Seems my post no.32 wasn't entirely inaccurate.

I believe that the inlet gaskets are treated paper ones. Perhaps Lovel's observations that the bolts need tightening after some weeks could explain the failure of some gaskets. I recall one occasion when I had the engine cover off and found that the bolts were not as tight as they originally were.

Clean up the surface as best you can with solvent and a fine grade of wet & dry on a flat surface, but I don't think you'll remove all the pitting. Although it's said to be unnecessary, I'd apply a thin smear of Hylomar to the pitted area and also the gasket itself.

But congratulations on the work so far, it does get easier next time ...

Regards

Does this part of the manifold need to be cleaned well?
it appears to be caked coolant, do i need to pick all that gunk out?
Thanks

Yes, it's a water channel, if blocked then there's no circulation there.

Regards

Well there you go....that was all bunged up, packed with dry solid coolant, that was the cause of the gasket failure...seems as we have solved the mystery, thanks to all for your responses and comments, without you i would not have managed this.

Hole now cleaned, zero coolant would have been going through previously.
The part where the rubber hose connects look as if it is corroding, it does not seem to be aluminium, not part of the casting.

i'm thinking this is what might have created the gunk to eventually block, I've been reading about galvanic corrosion, looks similar?

Should imagine the small pipe is steel pressed into the aluminium. Not unusual to find the steel corroded, my SD1's steel coolant pipes suffered corrosion too and that was with a 30% blue anti-freeze solution.

The blockage you suffered was unusual, perhaps the result of lack of flow/overheating? Interesting to see what others think.

Regards

Agreed Mike, it's definitely unusual. Mr. Previous Owner might have put some leak-sealing gunge into the cooling system. :flame:

Simon :}

Hi all,
I had to wait for some fuel injector seals as the one on my seemed cracked.
I recorded almost everything but not where this hose and damper on the fuel rail goes to.

Can anyone advise if this small hose clips onto that damper nipple?
Then the other end goes to where?

It the was the hose is pre shaped that is confusing me as it seems to be a hitting very close to the manifold when i connect it.
Thanks

I can see it here in Artics thread, post 18, is that the path it takes?

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s....php?p=2595205

Hi Joe.
Take a look at some of the other photos in the same thread.

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID001941

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...39&postcount=5

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...3&postcount=14

Thanks Arctic,
but i cannot see any reference in those threads to where the hose from the fuel pressure regulator connects to?
I cannot find a reference to our cars but reading i'm finding out the hose is a return line?
Just need to find out where it returns to?

Is this it?
Going back into the manifold?

Joe this could be what you are looking for hopefully.

https://i.imgur.com/onUzm9Sl.jpg1

https://i.imgur.com/fGnQnW0l.jpg2

So your photo above looks correct:hurray:

Excellent, thanks for confirming!

Ok, all put back together, hope I did not miss anything.
Topped up coolant then ran the car, now there’s a leak from the other side!
I looked underneath and it’s not from a hose but seems to be where the radiator sits in the plastic surround?
Any suggestions?

It's probalbly very obvious , i.e. its a radiator leak, maybe this is what originally caused the blockages?
I just need to ask if my next step is that i remove the whole radiator to inspect it?

Took off condenser to have a look, very easy job, found one tiny hole at the top of the radiator, which i can see even if the condenser was still in place, guess its a new radiator as i still have the bumper off.

Could anyone confirm these dimensions look correct?
I'm lucky to have a seller in Sydney, so i'm hoping it is ok, i see it has been purchased by other buyers through Ebay.

Could anyone confirm this would fit?
I'm surprised to see a Sydney seller, so will get it at a decent price and quickly, and it looks like other buyers bought one.

Do the dimensions looks correct



https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rover-75...53.m1438.l2649

You're in the best position to judge that Joe. Why not measure your current radiator and compare with the dimensions given in the eBay listing?

Simon

Radiator purchased, fits perfect.
Coolant refilled, bled, tested , fan came on, coolant temp dropped, no leaks so far!
I now need this bleeder hose.. LLH102660L
I’m finding difficulty finding one here, can I repair the one I have using heater hose?

Found a Freelander parts service, will pick up tomorrow.