Ticking noise from under the bonnet when parked and locked.
 

The ZTT 190 has randomly started a ticking from under the bonnet. I went out to investigate and my key fob didn't work so I can't raise up the hood. I knew the key fob battery was low, but the fob worked normally on Thursday night when I parked and locked. There was no apparent noise on Friday when I passed the car outside so it must have started entirely randomly late Friday afternoon. I've now changed the battery in the fob. Old cell was 2.9v and the new one 3.25. Red light is working but no response. I tried the key manually, but nothing engaged in the lock. The ticking has been going now for at least 12 hours. The rate is two ticks per second and can be clearly heard 20' away from the car. Any suggestions urgently invited please before the battery goes flat.

Hello Martin,

You're saying that inserting the key into the driver's door lock and rotating it through 90 degrees doesn't raise and lower the button in the door card?

Simon


It's the bonnet Martin. Join me in saying no! to the Americanisation of the English language. :D

Lol...You're right. My excuse is I spent 11 years surrounded by Americans, but I can do better:getmecoat:

Well I have a real challenge now. Car is properly locked. The ticking/clicking noise has stopped, so battery must be flat. I assume that was a relay which has now run down the battery. The bonnet is firmly shut and the wheels straight ahead so access to the panel under the driver's wheel arch is poor. Even if I take the wheel off to get better access to the panel, not sure if I'll get enough access to the bonnet cable. The key does nothing to raise or lower the button in the door card. I think I'll try to get a charger working to preserve the battery if I can get access. I do have a tow socket, so that might be a good place to start for a connection.

Tried connecting a battery charger to the trailer socket. I couldn’t find any voltage differential higher than 0.2v. Thought maybe that might be the last breaths of the battery. Connected a CTEK 5 to those pins. It seemed to be OK at first but then just shut itself down so I’ve given up on charging through the tow socket. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2470d7050c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...193f71d1db.jpg


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Does anyone know if any of the thirteen pins is a direct connection to battery positive?


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Bravo Google. So I have a caravan tow socket apparently. I had the earth correct but not the permanent live. Going to try again. Pin 13 (bottom right of locator lug) is earth and pin 9 is the one I need to charge through. Fingers crossed.


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Had the ZT-T not been used for a while Martin? I put a new battery on it when I bought the tourer back in 2018.

Sounds like the battery is completely dead. The ticking noise under the bonnet may be the BBUS alarm? The old battery that was on it wasn't holding a charge too well when I bought it and when the battery would run down it would set the alarm off and once that drained it would just be making a sort of loud ticking noise which could be heard from outside the garage I was storing it in at the time.

The driver's door should unlock with the key in the door even with the battery disconnected. Thats how I got into the car when I first bought it as the battery was dead, and quite a few times after when the old battery kept dieing whilst I had the car in storage.

Can't advise whether the tow electrics work though as neither myself or the previous owner had towed anything with it.

Hi Rick,
I used the car last week as my daily driver. Performed faultlessly. Lynn even commented that she liked the car which is a big win for the ZTT lol.
Parked up normally Thursday night and locked it at home with the fob just like I did at work in the morning. Only became aware of the ticking noise on Saturday and knew the battery was running down but it was wet and miserable and the forum was down so I left it until today. I was thrown when the key wouldn't open the door manually so I'm stuck at the moment. I'll have to go over the tow socket wiring and check it out another day. Just thought it might be an easier route to re-charge the battery. Now I think I'll have to jack her up, off with the undertray, and try to charge via the starter motor if I can't open the bonnet some other way. I've lubed the driver lock with the faint hope the key might work, but when I turn the key, nothing seems to engage and the door button stays down. :duh:

So according to pics on the internet, pin 9 permanent live could be one further round. Some pics show different connections, so going to try the alternate variation after the rugby!

No combination allows the Ctek 5 to charge via the trailer socket. I've seen this model of charger just shut down on a very flat battery when the regular 'non-smart' charger will just charge it. So it could be oxidised connectors/old wiring or the Ctek not liking the load it's detecting. I'm going to find an old style charger and try that before giving up on charging through the trailer socket. Car may be on the drive for a while! Key won't open the lock manually. Wondering if I inadvertently 'superlocked' the car somehow on Thursday when I was messing with the weak signal on the fob?

The buttons on the key always activate superlocking Martin. RAVE says that in this mode, using the key blade in the lock barrel will still unlock the door.

Has any work been done involving removing the driver's door card?

Simon

The intelligent chargers will not charge a totally flat battery, I have got around this before by bridging to pos and neg poles with a pp3 9v battery with the charger attached, this fools the charger into thinking it is almost flat and it begins charging ;).
Or, if you have a 2nd charged car battery, you could try to fabricate a pos and neg lead from the 2nd battery to plug into the towing socket.

I've never had the door card off, but I'm sure it has been off at some point in the past. Rick said the manual key worked OK when he had the car and the battery went flat on him when stored, but I've had the car over a year now, which is plenty of time for something to shake loose behind the card I guess. I don't recollect trying the key to unlock until this weekend.

That confirms my suspicions. I've got an old style Clarke machine, but it goes to high amps on a flat battery and I don't want to risk blowing any fuses in the trailer electrics. I'm guessing a safe current would be 15a or less. If I go low and use a trickle charger, or even fool the CTek into charging, it might not be enough to overcome whatever drained it that was causing all the clicking. I think I need to aim to charge at around 10a to ensure the battery charges despite the drain but also avoid blowing the fuse?

If the key worked manually before and no work has been done to the door it will be the cable that has snapped that connects the key assy to the lock assy. door open door card off and strip down reqd

It does feel like there is nothing there, so a snapped cable would explain that. Just have to get into the car to get started on the door card. Hopefully one of the other locks will open when the battery is re-charged. I've ordered a 10a current limited variable DC supply arriving tomorrow. It was the same price as a 10 amp battery charger from Halfords but more versatile. Hopefully it won't fry the fuse in the tow socket line but will overcome the current drain and charge the battery. I can't push the car so I'll have to make up a 20 metre test lead to the socket so the power supply will be under cover.

Thanks Jon for that.
I have a thirteen pin socket which I assume is a Euro socket. Pin 9 should be live and pin 13 ground. I was worried the current from another battery might exceed the fuse rating on the circuit if the battery in the car is very flat. It will be great if it works. I guess I could put a 10a in - line fuse as a precaution. I shall give it a try tomorrow and report back:}

Why should you not use a charger ?

Hi Martin,

Although the charger you have ordered is rated at 10 amps, the actual current drawn by your flat battery won't be anything near that. In my experience you might initially see 5 amps for a very short period but that will quickly reduce to about 3 amps.

However, that's academic. Follow Jon's advice to use a second charged battery to enable you to unlock the doors.

By the way, if your 260's battery is as depleted as you think it is, it probably won't respond to charging and will have to be replaced.

Simon :}

The item ordered delivers 0-30v and 0-10a variable, so it should be possible to deliver a decent charge through the socket to the battery. However, Jon's tip sounds quick and easy, so I'm going to try that first. I'll play with the variable supply when it finally arrives. I don't know the fuse rating in the trailer socket so I'll still put a 10a fuse in line when I try the battery trick later. I'm guessing the fuse in the trailer line would be around 20a?
I'm glad to report the 260 is OK since I've started the habit of leaving it on a trickle charger. It's the ZTT that's thrown a wobbly Simon, but I suspect you're right about me possibly needing a new battery. It did run very flat during the first lockdown, but I've had no trouble since then until last Thursday. Reflecting on last week, I have to confess to using two heated electric seats and a front electric windscreen a few times on short trips:eek:, so this issue may all be self inflicted:getmecoat: Going to install a trickle charger connector on the ZTT too when this is all sorted.

That sounds interesting Martin. I'd like to know more, can you post a link please?

Oh, sorry to get it wrong! :getmecoat: It's just that your profile mentions only one vehicle, the 260. Any chance of updating it? :}

Simon

My omission Simon which will be corrected shortly. Thanks for the heads up:}

Hope this link works.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Because you would need the charger hanging off the back of your car for at least 24 hours to charge your battery.--My method will give instant access to the battery under the bonnet.--A much more sensible place to put the charger.

Especially if you are parked outside and it starts to rain.

The extra fuse won't be needed. The existing one will be OK for the job.

After all this is up and running make sure by charging your battery for at least 24 hours.---:D

There are two options for pin 9 permanent battery live.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ca13f90133.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...877c1bffa3.jpg
I’ve plumped for pin 9 on the right as this is listed as a ‘Euroconnector’
I set up the V8 battery as a supplyhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...58f960bc74.jpg
The voltage was 12.88 but I got no response from the fob.
Now I have the CTEK 5 charging happily .https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4d3898929f.jpg
Unfortunately I don’t know if I have chosen the correct pin or even if the socket is a fully functional socket.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...084258d1cd.jpg
I may just be charging the V8 battery and no current going to the one I want to charge.
Starting to think I may have to jack up the car and try car chassis and starter motor feed to access the battery.
Oh for an easy external battery connection lol


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The first diagram is labelled "front of socket" so yes, you have chosen the correct terminal.

The second diagram appears to show the front of the plug (which you don't have).

Simon :D

Whoops. Lol. Just had a partial result however.
Put heavy duty leads on with the V8 & left running for 15 mins. Tried the fob. Nothing. Decided to remove the leads and noticed I had over 2v. So that must be a working pin 9. Put on the CTEK with the V8 battery in parallel and after about 10 mins an alarm came on. No response though when I use the key fob so I gave up charging and the alarm has now gone silent again.


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Martin,

Has your ZTT got a key barrel in the tailgate?

Simon

Simon
Sadly tourers were never fitted with this option ( im assuming its a tourer from the ZTT reference )


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I was hoping I might have a key option on the tailgate, but can confirm that Scott seems to be right. Not present on mine unfortunately.

So the summary so far is I've confirmed the battery is pretty flat. Pin 9 on the tow socket is definitely connected to the battery. As the charge builds up via the tow socket above 2v, then the alarm goes off, but pressing the key fob doesn't reset the alarm at that low voltage. If I disconnect the charger the alarm stops , but the battery goes flat again. No manual key option except the driver's door which doesn't work, most likely a broken or disconnected cable.
Main take away for me.
Check your manual key is working normally, because you really really need it if you lock the car and the battery goes flat:duh:

It really doesn't matter about the condition of the battery. As long as you have the feed from another battery to the positive lead on your existing battery. ( the one under the bonnet. ) and an earth to the car the doors should open immediately.
Could easily be the tow-bar socket has a poor connection somewhere.


( Oooops. My blue printing has disappeared.--:D--)

sounds like the only option is to pop the driver's wheel and wheel arch off and get to the bonnet cables to open the bonnet.

or... can the starter motor on a v6 be accessed from under the car with the undertray off? possibly use that to get power to it?

The charge doesn't have to build up. The moment you connect the auxiliary battery you will have 12 plus volts in the system. ( assuming the pin you have chosen is the permanent live pin. )

Maybe standing close to the car and operation the key a number of times might make it work. This sometimes makes the car and key talk to one another. ( Do this with power to the trailer socket. )

Hi Rick,
I'm thinking that even if I get the undertray off and can get a lead on the starter motor, I'm going to just set off the alarm again so before I get enough charge into the battery I could be listening to the alarm for a while. If it was parked in the garage I could have shut the door on it and left it charging up until it hopefully responded to the key fob. Being outside it will attract too much attention to risk this

I favour wheel off and I see an access panel in the wheel arch. However, the cable isn't broken and is properly secured, so I'm not sure that getting access will allow me to do anything useful. If anyone has a secret trick that would be awesome

I'm starting to think I may have to break the window to get in:eek:

Are you in the AA or RAC or any other breakdown service? If so could they not help.

:wot:
You won't be able to Martin. The starter motor on the KV6 is on top of the gearbox and you'd need to remove the air cleaner and battery to get to it. :o

As Rick says, your only option is to get access to the bonnet release cable.

Simon

I cancelled the AA during lockdown. It had gone up a lot and I only used them once in ten years. I'm with Green Flag now, but not covered at home. No rush for the vehicle fortunately so I'm determined to fix it myself (so far lol).

You can get the bonnet cable block off even if you've cable tide it its a bit more fiddley as you have to careful cut it with a stanley knife or some nail scissors.

Top tip before you do this get the longest cable tie you can and wrap it round the 2 bonnet cables leave the end through the access panel so when you pop the block off and the cables try and disappear in the engine bay you can still get to them!

Scott

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I tried this but failed today. You can see my set up from the photo. Heavy duty leads direct to the battery on the V8.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fc2d750513.jpg


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Definitely a top tip for me. I guess wheel off and try through the panel, but I may need the whole inner wheel arch liner off if I have to use a stanley knife. Will try to get to it tomorrow evening after work.

It not too bad get the wheel and light acces cover off and see what you can feel assuming the cable box is the same on the V8 have a good look at the set up so you know what your trying to do. Also if you can lever the top of the washet bottle neck off it gives a bit more room

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I sprayed the lock with WD40. It only turns clockwise. Doing that on the V8 works but on the ZTT no luck so far. I'll be trying again in the morning, but it doesn't seem to want to engage either way. Anti clockwise seems a no no.

If you can see the cable block why cant you clamp some mole grips on the 2 cables coming out of the box to the bonnet and pull

On my car it's clockwise (towards the front of the car) to unlock, anti-clockwise to lock.

By the way Martin, I know that you have other things on your mind at the moment but I couldn't help noticing that your multimeter is showing a rather high charging voltage on your V8 (14.5v being the absolute maximum and preferably lower).

Simon

Too cold for me to work on the car today lol.
Just a question if anyone can answer it. Is it normal for the car alarm to go off as a very flat battery is being charged on the car and recovers it's voltage? :shrug:

I'm pretty sure I had a good connections with the clamps on the towbracket and Pin 9. I'm thinking the old trailer socket may have some oxidation somewhere on the line to the battery.
I thought as an alternative ( in theory ) if there was indeed a poor connection between pin 9 and the battery, I could trickle charge the battery through the trailer socket, but was frustrated when the alarm started up. The battery definitely was charging albeight slowly. I was really hoping your excellent suggestion would work Jon. I'm thinking to try charging until the alarm goes off, and then slap on the V8 battery with the engine running and try four quick presses on the fob before I abandon hope and take off the wheel arch liner and try the open the bonnet approach.

I have two guesses if by ticking you mean a constant running of a solenoid pump then it is most likely to be the ABS brake control valve pump situated just under the other possible Solenoid pump the under bonnet fuel pump both at the back of the battery box. is the tick coming from the N/S?

This can happen because if you have a pump running when the alarm is set the voltage sensor with in the alarm will pick up power consumption of the pump. surprised it lets you set it at all. Though if it is not sensitive to pick up the discharge when it is fully charged as the battery voltage goes down the amperage drawn will increase the good old V=IR equation you would have been taught at school. Also you should never charge the cars battery is connected to the car. You can blow the diode pack in the Alternator by charging the battery whilst it is still connected to the car. So nothing should should be live when charging the battery.

The answer to that question is a tin of beans. or is it a can of worms. thirteen pin sockets are meant to be wired up through a magic relay box if the battery is very flat with a constant drain on it then the relay box will not make a direct to anything.
the pin con figuration on a 13 pin socket should be
1) left indicator 1.5mm yellow
2) fog light 1.5mm Blue
3) common return for contacts 1 to 8 2.5mm white
4) right indicator 1.5mm green
5) right hand side lights 1.5mm Brown
6) Brake Lights 1.5mm Red
7) left hand side lights 1.5mm Black
8) reversing light 1.5mm pink
9) continuous power supply 2.5mm orange
10) ignition switched power 2.5mm grey

11) earth contact for pin 10 2.5mm white and black
12) coding for coupled unit should be bridged to pin 3
13) common return for pin 9 2.5mm white and red



The above is the correct wiring for a 13 pin trailer socket with cable rating and colour coding. if the system is connected up through a digital relay pack which is battery fed so there is no direct line for any pin they only connect the socket to the relay power supply.
On my unit pin twelve is the rear camera feed and so is not linked to pin 3

in my car. the common returns are also negative feeds through the digital relay pack so again no direct feed to the vehicle earth it is a controlled pin through the digital relay pack. But the question is then who wired up the tow bar and is power coming through a relay pack or is it just scotch locked onto the light cluster wires direct with a live supply fed to pins 9 and 10.


Best of luck with charging the battery or getting into the car or under the bonnet. I still think your ticking will be the ABS control valve solenoid pump.

Martin's car hasn't got an under-bonnet fuel pump Alan. It's a petrol engine. :D
Just to put this in perspective Alan, it's only if you're careless enough to connect your charger clamps the wrong way around! :twonk:

Simon

https://caravanchronicles.com/guides...fault-finding/

Although pin 9 shows permanent live, the bypass relay of the car may not allow this to be permanent live. If a caravan is attached, leaving it connected could flatten the cars battery. I think I have mine wired so it is only live when the engine is running.
Pin 10 as indicated should only be live when the engine is running for the same reason.

pin 12 shows as not used, perhaps those of us with towing electrics should wire pin 12
direct to the positive of the battery just for charging.


macafee2

just been and checked, no 12v on pins 9 or 10 without the engine running

Thanks for responding. I found it odd there was no ticking on Thursday or Friday, but on Saturday it had started up despite the car being locked. I thought it was predominantly near side, but I couldn't be sure. The engine is a KV6 190.

Hi Simon,

It is actually a KV6 190 Simon. I need to update my profile. The ticking noise did sound like some kind of relay on the nearside when it was active. but of course the battery is now discharged.
I've always charged my batteries on the car, rarely taken one off, so re-assuring that as long as I'm careful with polarity, it should be OK. I think the more modern cars though are increasingly sensitive to how they are treated with so many ecu's:eek:

I'm pretty sure I don't have a relay on mine because it seemed to be raising the battery voltage. Relay sounds like the correct way to go though.

Whenever I've needed to charge a battery I have never dis connected it from my car or other family members cars for over 40 years now without any problems.

It's the same if you jump start one car from another and leave the donators car engine running. It won't hurt the alternator diodes.

The alternator or charger put around the same voltage into the cars circuitry. The diodes are built to take this. ( approximately 14.4 volts. )


If what you suggest is true the roads would be littered with cars with damaged alternators after a jump start.

( It's a bit of a wives tale that just won't go away.---:D:D:D--)

Well I got a chance to try again after work. Connected the V8 battery to pin 9 and the chassis. Immediately the alarm went off, so I'm assuming pin 9 has no relay and goes direct to the battery on my car. I left the battery connected with the ctek charger in parallel and ignored the alarm for a few minutes. I got close to the car and pressed the fob four times. I noted the red light on the fob was working. I repeated this several times but to no avail. Car remains firmly locked up. So at the weekend it looks like I'll be mangling my hands trying to get to the bonnet cable via the wing. I'm left wondering whether my changing the fob battery might have sabotaged Jon's solution.:getmecoat:

No it won't have done Martin. The fob battery powers only its circuit board which sends an RF signal to the receiver in the car. Since the car's battery is completely discharged, the receiver is most likely unable to function, hence the doors remain locked.

The alarm is sounding because the battery voltage is so low that the electronics think that it's been disconnected by a thief (the BBUS alarm sounder has its own independent battery).

Simon

Just a thought, when you get a bit if power try using the key in the drivers door lock and hold it in the unlock position and see if the windows open. Id enabled the lazy venting option on it. Not sure if that will still work even though the drivers door won't open with the key.

That sounds interesting. It's worth a shot before taking the wheel off. I'll try that tonight weather permitting.

Rick's suggestion isn't going to work with a flat battery Martin. Your only option is to get the bonnet open to charge the battery and the sooner you do that, the better.

Simon

Thanks for that information Simon. Just wondering, if the electronics detect a low voltage and that sets off the BBUS, why doesn't the BBUS sound every time the car battery drops below a certain voltage as it goes flat while being unused?
Also I recollect disconnecting the battery myself a few times to be safe while working on the car, and the alarm stayed silent. I'm guessing this was because the car wasn't locked. However, I locked the car on Thursday, so in theory, if the car battery ran down, should it not have fired up the BBUS at some point?
By connecting 12.8v to pin 9, that instantly fires up the BBUS which is actually increasing the voltage.:shrug:
At least I'm very grateful the MG BBUS turns off when I disconnect pin 9. I have an Astra turbo from which I removed the BBUS a few years ago when it kept randomly annoying the neighbours. I had ear defenders on, and put it in a bucket with foam all over it in a cupboard in the garage. It sounded for two days before giving up:eek:. With hindsight I should have used a sledgehammer on it but at the time I was thinking I might try to fix it.

ah that's a shame.

There's one last thing that just came to me.---You have a tow hitch fitted.--It might be wired direct into the car's wiring. ( Rear light clusters. ) However it is advised to fit a relay so as not to overload the cars wiring or upset the function of the ECU. If it has a relay then this is normally fitted into the boot of the car.---There is a way of getting into the boot without doing any damage. The relay, if there is one, will have a positive live wire directly to the battery positive terminal.

I can't remember on the forum where the information is on how to get into the boot but I guess somebody will read my post and know how to do this.--:D

I've been there ! I had an MG ZR with a BBUS which kept going off at random times and I also ended up burying it in a cupboard after removing it until it died . I then disconnected the internal batteries to prevent them recharging and refitted it . No more problems ever again , and the rest of the alarm system carried on working fine :} I concluded that the problem was with the BBUS device , but decided I could live without it !

I made the same decision I could live without it, but I left mine off the car. I didn't think about it affecting the rest of the electronics but I seem to have got away with it. Very happy without the alarm. Has a car burglar alarm ever done anything except annoy the owner :getmecoat:?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...117c7ea1e0.jpg
This was my last desperate attempt to get into the car. I put acoustic foam over the hood weighted against the wind to dampen the noise from the BBUS. Then connected the V8 battery to pin 9 with the CTEK in parallel. BBUS fired up at around 2v. I monitored current and voltage continuously.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f59126c26c.jpg
Took about 15 mins to register 7v on the ZT-T with the donor battery and charger disconnected so I was sure the battery was charging via pin 9 and there was no relay in the way. The BBUS was still going off even louder. Tried the key fob but still no joy. Bit frustrated I went in to grab a coffee. 15 mins later I came out and noticed the BBUS had gone silent. Voltage was oscillating between 10.5 to 13v .Current was pulsing between 2 and 4.6 amps. Voltage was now 11.2 on ZT-T with donor battery and charger disconnected. Tried the fob again but no joy. Put key in driver door and turned it to unlock as per Rick's advice. Heard the solenoid in the rear passenger door activate weakly. Went back inside for fifteen mins approx while charging continued. Then re-tried the key fob in the driver door at unlock position and pressed it several times. The rear doors popped open but not the front doors. Jon’s tip did work (eventually) after all lol . I think the front solenoids might fire up as the battery charges further and will report later on. Thanks for all the advice. Hood, sorry Simon, bonnet is now open. Hip, hip Yay! Over the moon it worked.


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:clap: :jig: :wine:
The eventual end of lockdown is going to be an anti climax after that Martin!

Now leave your C-tek across your battery for 36 hours and don't switch it off! :D

Simon

Lol. I can confess to feeling somewhat elated Simon:D:D:D:D Battery is on the bench for a long charge. Rear door buttons in open position and with no battery in the car they should stay that way. Nevertheless, rubber block under the bonnet so there is no way it can be accidentally lock until I understand a bit more. Think I might check the plenum drains while I'm at it. I'm hoping it was all flat battery related, but I've never checked the drains on this car, so this would be a good time to do it.:getmecoat:

And worth investigating why the key doesent open the car which it should irrespective of battery condition.

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:iagree: :wot:

I couldn't agree more with Scott.

Martin, now that the battery's out of the car, insert your key blade into the driver's door lock and turn it anticlockwise. This should retract the door sill button and mechanically lock the driver's door only. If it doesn't, as soon as the weather warms up next week, remove the door card to see what's going on.

Simon

Having had a lifetime's employment in the comms industry, beginning with my apprenticeship & nearly 20yrs with the Pye/Philipps group on mobile radios, Can I offer their spec for vehicle voltages. All the radios were designed to operate on a nominal voltage of 13.8v (ie for a 12v car). They had to work down to 11v (whiwas the lowest voltage before the battery was considered flat). High voltage spec was cset at 15.6v, anything over that was considered to abnormally high, and were also considered as industry standards. Worth noting these voltages whenever you check vltage or battery chargers.
Stewart

Bit more advice ( If you don't mind, ;););)--)

Drill the access hole for the Plenum chamber drain system.

The dimensions can be found on the forum. ( Arctic I think posted them. )


As Simon said in his post, give the battery a long charge.

Ignore the --Battery is FULL---light because these sometimes tell lies.--:D:D:D

I'll tell you why if you feel you need to know.---;)



PS. Oil the bonnet catch mechanism as you now have the bonnet open.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...0d1d80aa5a.jpg
Voltage at the battery when I got access under the bonnet was much lower than measured at the trailer socket. That battery voltage is with the V8 battery and CTEK connected showing over 12v at the socket. Explained some of the wierdness with the door buttons.
I took the battery off the car and charged it on the bench for over 12 hourshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8693c89589.jpg
New battery fitted Yuasa HSB 096
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5638dd6f1c.jpg
Now the door solenoids are perfect on the rear doors. Front passenger door makes no sound and remains locked. I can open that door from the inside but not the outside. The drivers door will only open with the key in the lock to assist when pressing the fob. The button then returns to lock. I forgot when I drove the car into the garage and had to exit through the passenger door.
Door card is coming off shortly. I think the passenger door card will also have to come off.


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If your last picture shows your new battery voltage then it's too low. There could be two reasons for this.

1/ It's not fully charged.--If checked at least two hours after charging when the voltage has settled it should read at LEAST 12.6 volts.

1/ Maybe, just maybe your multi-meter is not as accurate as you might like.---:eek::eek::eek:

Any advice always very welcome Jon. I noticed I had a green 'battery OK' indicator on the battery I just discarded which only managed 10v after over 12 hours charging. I'm definitely intrigued regarding the reason, and also why it a failed so suddenly after working perfectly all week!
Definitely planning to do the Arctic mod you suggested for sure. Good advice also to lube the bonnet latches.
Measured voltage of the new battery is off the shelf with no charging. I have access to several different multimeters, so I'm going to look at the ranges I get.
I don't have access to anything to calibrate a multimeter properly though.
New battery is now on charge and will look later. (If not right it will go back).:}

So I went to check the new battery on the car was charging and found I forgot to connect the charger. Charger connected and noticed only the second light came on so battery not good. Took a voltage reading and got 11.1v. Argh.
Put a current meter in series with the battery negative terminal and Rick’s halo daylight running lights came on. Reading was 16.2 amps. I locked the doors and the reading dropped tohttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...87dd69c148.jpg
A few minutes later the reading was https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e95b759b23.jpg
Decided to disconnect the ammeter. When I put the neg terminal back on the battery the alarm went off. I hastily disconnected the terminal and the alarm went silent, but the ticking noise returned. I put back the terminal and the alarm started, so I pressed the key fob and the alarm stopped. For a few moments I noticed all of the led’s on the interior and the halo lights were flashing on and off.
The new battery is disconnected and charging up on the bench. More detective work needed. Going to hit the sack as worn out lol.


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:iagree:

That's the right move Martin. :} Start by making sure that your new battery shows fully charged on the C-tek, then disconnect the charger and wait a few hours before measuring its off-load voltage with your multimeter. Does it meet Jon's minimum figure of 12.6 volts?

Simon

PS There's something very odd going on with your alarm but we'll investigate that later.

Just a sudden thought is it possible that at some time in the cars history the drivers door lock got changed, by that i mean the barrel not the unit that hooks on to the U bar. Though I think not as i am sure Rick said he had got in with the key. If more than one key is the cut pattern the same on them all. could be the door barrel has sticky pins may need flushed with white spirit. WD40 could have been used in the lock in the past and it would eventually gum up the workings of the lock as it is only a water dispersant. locks should be cleaned and lubricated with a product like Cabba sadly the stuff is not cheep but a wee can should last the average driver a lifetime.

Glad to hear you are in to the car.

I may never lock the car again! Ironically I locked it so it would shut down electricals quicker to preserve the battery. Didn't realise the battery had deteriorated that much:duh:

Update on voltage readings.
With charger connectedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5faa4dea85.jpg
Immediately after charger disconnectedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7b53026b22.jpg
Ten minutes later
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d9a0313071.jpg
Four hours later
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f062f6ed91.jpg
So battery is OK.
Took off door card. Examined with flashlight and mirror but didn’t find anything obviously broken. With no power, found the key would not unlock the door as before. Inside door handle also didn’t work but I could see the button moving up and down. Oddly, if I leave the key in the door at lock position outside, then the door unlocks with two pulls from inside. However, I can’t remove the key from the door unless I close it and lock it manually from outside again. Key out, inside lever doesn’t open, key in at lock position and inside lever works but again key is trapped in the lock. Then door opens and closes normally from outside.
I’ve sprayed a large quantity of electrical contact cleaner into the lock to clean it and need a recommendation on the best lock lubricant as the next step.


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Just read the thread from start to finish. Might be be wrong but my gut feeling is that leaky electrics might be present and maybe before your ownership. Re a locks maintenance, regardless of application the internals I think should be clean and dry. Graphite powder is all I would use to ease its operation. Graphite powder is not expensive, it can be had from Chinese sellers for little money. Or, if you have the time make do from the lead of a pencil by making it into a powder.

There are 6 cells in the battery. That green indicator only tells you the condition of the cell that it's in.---The cell next door might be totally dead.---:eek:-----Ten volts after charging means you have one dead cell.--:D

Some of your latest readings indicate that at last all is well.---;););)

Hi Martin,

I notice from your photograph that you may have disconnected the charger when it reached stage no. 4 which C-tek defines as "battery ready for use". You'll find that it's better to let it complete the programme and reach stage 7 "fully charged" which is when the charger enters the trickle ("float") mode.
Torch! :D
There's a lot of unnecessary fuss made about this. I have a syringe of MG Rover special lock lubricant. It's just light grease! All this does is to ease the passage of the key blade channel through the engagement mechanism. WD40 may freeze (I remember this from years ago) but really, if the key blade is kept clean and the dust cover on the slot is functioning, you don't need to go mad with lubricants. Silicone aerosol spray is very effective and smells nice too! :D

Simon

Hi Simon,

I left the battery charging again until the 7th light came on and noticed the voltage had dropped in trickle mode to around 13.4. (On position 6 it was at 15.45 which quite surprised me.) I'm pretty sure the battery is good but will check again tomorrow.
While disconnected from power I did manual door checks as follows. Rear doors, push buttons down, doors lock. Pull door handles inside (once) they unlock. Pull outside they remain locked. Conclusion normal manual operation?
Front passenger door, same as rear on manual, so also normal?
Driver's door is an issue on manual. If I lock the door (anticlockwise) with the key and take the key out, then the inside handle won't open the door from inside the car. However, if I lock the door with the key and leave it in, then two pulls of the inside handle opens the door. Now the door will open and close using the outside handle with the key left (stuck) in the barrel. To free the trapped key I must manually re-lock from the outside. Then I can't manually unlock from outside or inside.
Next I locked the driver door from the outside to get the key fob free (for the alarm), and locked all the other doors. Connected the battery, no alarm sounded! Took the negative lead off the battery and alarm went off. Re-connected the battery and used the fob to silence the alarm. Pressed the fob button to unlock and lock several times. The rear door buttons unlocked and locked normally. There was a single beep on locking with the fob every time which I suspect was the open bonnet.
Front passenger door button was totally inactive. The driver's door did react up and down, but the door didn't unlock, unless I put they key in and gave a manual assist on opening. The only way to open the driver's door from outside is with the key fob and the key working wirelessly and manually in sync.
I'm thinking a bad connection or failed solenoid in the front passenger door.
Clueless about the driver door. (Both door cards are off)
A torch:} and mirror examination didn't show anything apparently broken. When the key turns, I see a small drive shaft turn with no slippage at the key end, but can't see what happens at the other end. I feel the driver side is very close to working normally. The button amplitude/range appears to be less than it should be. AC 90 lubricant definitely improved things, but it wasn't enough:shrug:

Did you have the reconditioning option activated? You should be using the normal charging mode.
That's not a normal procedure Martin so it's perhaps not surprising that you're getting unexpected results. Either use the key blade manually and withdraw it from the lock before operating any handles or use the remote control buttons but not both! :D
Can you locate any electrical connector to the driver's door actuator and try re-seating it? On the face of it, it sounds like a high resistance connection.

Simon

Thanks again for the support Simon
Martin:}

Absolutely Jon. Somehow I missed reading it :getmecoat:, so much appreciate your following up with this information.
I didn't realise the monitor window was only on one cell. That explains a lot of my observations and frustrations over the years with many batteries. The old ZT-T battery has now recovered to about 11.8 volts, but I know it's got a problem, and one duff cell down on capacity would explain that. I'm confident if presented with a load the voltage would rapidly collapse! Just got an interesting e-mail from Halfords. If I return the old battery to the store, I'll get a £10 discount voucher on my next purchase. Must read the small print lol.

You're not going to believe this...

The exact thing has just happened to me. Yesterday I had the ignition on for about 10 mins whilst I was doing a few bits around the car and then when I went to start the car it just kept clicking as the battery had drained too low. All other electrics worked fine.

As it was late I locked the car up and planned to remove the battery and put it on trickle charge today. Have tried to unlock the door with the fob and it isn't unlocking and I can't open the driver's door with the key!

The driver's door lock definitely works, I've only used it recently. I only just put a new battery on Redfive in August last year.

I seem to have the exact problem you had. My fob isn't doing anything and for some reason I cannot open the driver's door with the key, even though that usually opens the driver's door even when there isn't a battery fitted to the car.

Very sorry to hear that Rick. That at least makes me feel I'm not going crazy. I've got both door cards off and am going over everything on the locks, but so far can't see anything obviously wrong. I'm planning some tests with a fully charged battery later on this weekend and will post reports, but I was so grateful to get back into the car without having to go through the awkward 'feel for the bonnet cable' technique. She's in the garage now with the doors open and the battery disconnected just in case the random battery drain destroys another new battery while I'm not looking:eek:

Right managed to get mine sorted.

Had to put jump leads on the starter motor and slam panel from underneath and connected to my spare battery and the car powered up straight away.

As soon as I had power the hazard lights were flashing as the alarm was going off but no sound from my BBUS unit as it's dead (got a replacement one on it's way at the moment).

So seems like the alarm must have been going off which must have drained the battery to completely dead (the battery voltage dropping below a certain level must have set the alarm off at some point over night), but I checked through my security camera footage and the hazard lights weren't flashing at any point during the night.

Immediately after connecting the jump leads and having power to the car I was able to unlock it with the fob. All doors unlocked fine. And was now able to unlock the car using the key in the driver's door as well.

Had the jump leads on for about 5 minutes and then as soon as I disconnected them all power completely died, so the battery must have been completely drained.

I've fitted the spare battery for the moment which unlocks the car and starts it fine, the other battery is currently on trickle charge and will test it once it's fully charged.

The battery had only been on the car since August last year. I had noticed recently on a few occasions over the last week on the first start up of the day the car would turn over a bit slowly, but then on other days it would fire up fine. Maybe due to the lack of longer journeys, but it has had a couple good runs recently.

Have you tried connecting a known good battery to the ZTT? I think the problem with you not being able to unlock certain doors may be due to the battery being no good?

The battery fitted to your ZTT was this one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROVER-75-...72.m2749.l2649

I've used these for about 7 or 8 years now. The last two I bought have been for your ZTT and redfive. Although I've not had any problem with these batteries until now, I'm wondering if they're not as good quality as the ones I'd bought from the seller previously? Just because we both have had the same problem and both have the same battery model fitted.

Also, does anyone know, if I lock the car with the fob so that it's alarmed and the alarm then goes off, does this prevent me from being able to unlock the car using the key in the door? So the only way to now unlock the car is by using the fob to disable the alarm? is this some sort of security feature?

Why not try it?
Leave the drivers window open, bonnet open and put a weight on the bonnet switch. then lock the car with the fob, stick your arm into the car and set the volumetric alarm off. Disconnect the battery on the car ( to simulate flat battery and then try to unlock with the key ;) or leave battery connected and try to open with key.

Haven't got a volumetric alarm on mine but I'll try that when I get time :) I'll just leave the door open and press the boot release button that'll set off the alarm.

Voltage at end of long chargehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e675e26731.jpg
3 mins after disconnecting chargerhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c719d7a351.jpg
Voltage 4 hours laterhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e5d8f74603.jpg
Conclusion. This battery is OK.
Further investigation of central locking and manual locking needed.


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Hi, going by the LED's I've noticed two things on your charger:


1) you have it set for an AGM battery, is yours an AGM , this program charges at up to 14.7v


2) you have enabled recondition mode,this mode operates at up to 15.8v, only to be used occasionally, at this voltage it causes excess gassing which stirs up the electrolyte to combat stratification which can occur when batteries are stood for long periods even though fully charged as on a shelf or a car stored but without movement, used frequently or for prolonged periods it can damage a battery.

Thanks for reiterating this Bill. I brought the reconditioning mode to Martin's attention in post no. 93 when he expressed concern at the high voltage during the charging process.

Martin; please read carefully your C-tek instruction book as a matter of urgency to ensure that you are using the charger properly. Also, whilst an off-load voltage of 13.8v after waiting 4 hours following charging is encouraging, the real test is whether the battery can deliver the current required to start the engine.

It's very interesting that Rick has experienced the same problem with opening his driver's door mechanically when the battery is deeply discharged (as opposed to disconnected).

Simon

Thanks SD1, yes it is important to check exactly what the CTEK mode is every time it is switched on, it remembers the last mode and if it has been a while since it was used for say an AGM and you pop a conventional battery on it will still charge and may marginally over time charging in AGM mode affect a battery, recon. used the same way isn't forgiving at all.


My son has a garage and especially during Covid has had many flat batteries, some down to 0v, others hovering around the 10v-11.5v, on the marginal ones,depending on age, he offers his customers the option to charge and test before replacing, many simply say just change it so I get a few to play with.


I had a nice 9 month old Bosch one that came up quite well showing only a marginal loss of health ( Midtronics tester )a week later the voltage held up and started an old stubborn Deutz engine without problem so time to experiment with a recon.


As usual with a CTEK plug in and get on with other things knowing that it would go through the process,the recon stage could be up to four hours but ten it would continue to float and pulse.


Later in the evening I could smell the 'rotten eggs' from the battery, switched off and the battery was more than quite warm,the casing slightly bulged, let it cool and the next day tested it both with the tester and on the engine, battery US.


At a loss how this had happened I put a similar battery through the same cycle but kept my eye on it, it completed no problems, the problem was soon solved when I remembered that my grandchildren had been in the outbuilding all day building something, glue guns and all sorts still on the bench, when questioned it transpired that throughout the day, they unplugged the charger many times to use the socket, then plugged the charger back in starting the whole process from step one many times, I sliced the battery open, being a nosey B to find extensive plate distortion with loss of paste bridging plates.


Anyway enough about chargers, the thread prompted me to go out this morning and check locking and unlocking on one of my 75's with a fully charged battery, it unlocked OK and locked OK, I didn't open the door, but after locking with the key the alarm went off ( non volumetric) and couldn't be turned off by the key, only with the remote, I tried the same but opened and closed the door, the same happened, I'll try it with the battery disconnected in the next couple of days and come back with what happens.

I shall definitely be checking the mode from now on when I use the CTEK.
With correct modehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...7f9ed58a6d.jpg
Three hours later
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3b375a71ae.jpg
Learning a lot about batteries. Thanks to everyone keeping me straight!
Decided to investigate the locks manually with no power. I was satisfied the rear locks were all working correctly.
Looking at the passenger side, despite removing and cleaning the connector to the actuator several times, when I connect the battery and press the fob, only the rear doors work correctly. There is nothing happening on the passenger side so I took the whole unit off and put it on the bench. The mechanism was a bit sticky so I cleaned it with contact cleaner and liberally flushed with AC90 and an air gun to remove the gunk of the ages. That has really freed it up and manually it’s now working fine. Now I’m looking for advice on how to bench test the unit? Pic shows it has pins 1 and then 3-8.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ed2d7d936b.jpg


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TBH, Interesting as the battery charging information is. And even more interesting the failure of the mechanical open/unlock of the doors with a flat battery (alarm triggered I think). I keep coming back to find out about the 'ticking' noise from under the bonnet. Has any further progress been made on identifying the cause of this? I believe whatever this was, was the original cause of the battery being flattened in the first place.

That is the question I'm asking myself. The 'ticking' was loud enough to be heard 20 feet from the car, about two ticks per second. No ticking when first parked and locked on the Thursday night, and nothing noted on the Friday. Saturday afternoon heard the ticking but it could have started overnight. No alarm or flashing indicators, but no CCTV to check timeline when it started up. Stopped of course when the battery went very flat. I've not heard the ticking since. Nervous of course about whether it could catch me out again:eek:

Stratification of a battery.--Never heard that before. What exactly does that mean ???

High voltages are sometimes used to try and remove compacted sulphation. That's where the molecular bonding of lead sulphate crystals don't easily respond to normal charging voltages.

The acid in a battery has a set specific gravity for the optimum working of the battery.

Charging at too high a voltage can cause excessive heat inside the cells.

The result is the acid strength increases as the water content of the battery is vapourised. This results in poorer performance of the battery and also lowers the level of the electrolyte exposing the tops of the plates. Thus the surface area of the working plate is reduced and so is the capacity of the battery.

That was a new one on me too. I found this article which also mentioned battery formatting in the field for new batteries, also new to me.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...surface_charge

Nothing to worry about as this won't happen to a battery in normal use.

Batteries nowadays are sealed. The older batteries had removable filler caps to allow for checking the specific gravity of the electrolyte and also for topping up if necessary.

With a cap removed and with the battery on charge it was possible to see bubbles rising in the cell even when charging normally. The rising bubbles would keep the electrolyte on the move and the acid strength in the cell uniform.

Hence no stratification.---Actually the very best way of checking the charge in a battery is by using a hydrometer if the battery has the original acid in it and has not been tampered with.

A bit more info on the picture I posted in the above post.

Sometimes a garage mechanic will say----Trouble with your battery Sir ???---It's probably because it is sulphated up inside.---:eek::eek::eek:

Avoid this mechanic as he obviously doesn't know sulphate forms and vanishes when battery is in use. If it didn't no electricity would come out of your battery at all.---:D

If you follow the coloured lines in that picture it will tell you exactly what goes on inside your battery every day.

Is the ticking a relay?
If the switch side of a relay is energised - wiring fault then it will pull across the relay and energise the larger current draw.

I've been following this thread with interest, then today had a similar issue, but thankfully without being locked out of the car.

The poor old Rover has been sitting quietly under the car port for a few weeks due to a combination of the poor weather and having no where to go. Today, I decided to give her a quick dust off and opened the boot to get some of my detailing gear. So far so good. When I tried to lock the car though, nothing happened at all. I gave a couple of extra presses on the fob, and was greeted by a ticking sound from under the bonnet, at the rate of around 2 per second (sound familiar?).

I disconnected the battery, and put it on charge. Then, after an hour or so, I put the battery back just to see if the ticking noise had stopped. It had, but was replaced by the alarm sounding instead :eek: (made me jump a little!). A quick press of the unlock button on the fob silenced the alarm, so I'm guessing the ticking noise was the car attempting to trigger the alarm but with insufficient battery power to do so.

Battery is now off the car for a good long charge, which will hopefully sort the issue.

Hope this helps a little,

Cliff

I wonder if unlocking the boot drained the last bit of power the battery had left i it. As when the battery is dead or disconnected the boot can't be opened using the key in the lock, at least it can't on my typhoon anyway.

Good thing your car was already unlocked otherwise you may have had the same issue with not being able to unlock it at all as Martin and myself had.

Little update from me Martin after our call yesterday.

I done a test on redfive today. Popped the bonnet open and then locked the car with the fob whilst I held the bonnet switch pressed down so it would think the bonnet is shut. Waited about 10 seconds and then took my finger off the switch to set the alarm off. If I then attempt to unlock the car with the key in the driver's door lock it unlocked fine.

I then done the test again, set the alarm off and disconnected the battery (to replicate having a flat battery) and I was still able to unlock the driver's door with the key in the lock.

So sadly my theory of maybe the locks not allowing you to unlock the driver's door with the key if the car is locked with the fob and the alarm's going off and the battery is dead didn't work unfortunately.

So still baffled as to why we were both unable to unlock the door with the key in the driver's lock when the battery died.

My door lock works perfectly fine. But when my battery died the door lock restricted how far I could turn the key in the lock. So to unlock the car via the keylock I can turn the key 90 degrees clockwise to unlock it. However when the battery died, I was only able to turn the key 45 degrees clockwise. It could not be turned any further no matter how hard I tried without breaking the key fob.

Thanks for this Rick. Removing the driver's door lock, which contains the key-operated switches and actuators, might help understanding but of course only partial technical information is available presumably for security reasons.

Simon

Thanks for the follow up Rick and the advice. I'm hoping to get stuck into this at the weekend and discover more and will post what happens. Current position is that the rear doors lock and unlock normally. The front passenger door the same manually but the mechanism was a little stiff, and the actuator solenoid is non-responsive. Driver's door is the conundrum.
The manual key will not open the manually locked drivers door. The interior handle also doesn't open the door, unless I leave the key in the barrel at the lock position (fully counter clockwise). Then two pulls of the interior handle and the door pops open. Now the door is unlocked, but the key is trapped in the barrel in a position just 20 degrees or less clockwise from full lock. As long as I leave the key in the lock in that position, the door opens and closes normally. The only way though to get the key out is to return it to the lock position slightly counterclockwise. I can now remove the key which renders inside and outside handles inoperative and the door is locked again.
The only way to open the drivers door from the outside is to connect the battery and turn the key clockwise at the same time as operating the fob button and pulling the handle. Could I possibly have a faulty superlock situation? Further investigation clearly needed. I have a new passenger door actuator ready to fit so hopefully I'll have three working doors soon and can really focus on the drivers door then. So odd that all was well until the battery went flat!:shrug:

Many thanks Cliff for your post. I think you've nailed the reason for the ticking noise. I did notice that as I was charging the battery up via the trailer socket, the alarm started to sound initially very weakly almost like on a half cycle and then got stronger although it never 'ticked' again. I agree the original ticking noise at 2 'tick'/sec was likely either the BBUS trying to work at inadequate voltage, or a related relay (as suggested by Calum) . Someone with more knowledge than myself on this might care to comment later.

Here's one theory on the door lock issue.
A flat battery isn't a non-existent battery. I.e. disconnecting the battery doesn't accurately simulate a flat battery.


If there is some voltage present and an attempt is made to unlock the car with the remote is it maybe possible that the doorlock solenoid is moving (even if only slightly), just not far enough to unlock the door: and that an unfortunate side effect of this is to block the mechanical unlock mechanisms?


There's something to go and experiment with!

great thread, lots to ponder. And yes, I cheered when you finally got back in :}
My experience with Rover 75 alarms and flat batteries is enormous. The battery has gone flat many times on both cars.
This is what I've learned - If the battery goes flat with the car locked and alarmed on the fob, the alarm will sound when the negative lead touches the battery post....... have fob ready to unlock.
If I know the battery is going to go flat I open with the fob, but lock the drivers door with the key blade. After battery has gone flat and fob doesn't work, I recharge the battery, and this time when reconnecting it, the alarm doesn't sound.

Something else..... If the car is locked and alarmed with the fob, then I open the drivers door with the key blade, she lulls me into a sense of false security, then the alarm suddenly goes off.

Didn't know about the technique of opening the window with the key blade. Might try that for fun next time I'm out :}

Well I found time to fit the new passenger door latch/actuator today. Not as bad as I feared, all because of so much helpful advice on the forums. Hopefully I left thanks as appropriate, but special mention to Arctic whose pics helped it make sense:bowdown: You absolutely have to remove the bottom bolt in the window track to finesse the old actuator out and the new in, but a little patience and it's not so bad. It was easier to fit the door button wire linkage to the actuator after the actuator was bolted in. Lastly I put a tie wrap around the plastic holder connecting the rod from the outer door handle to the actuator lever as recommended. I took the opportunity to silicone spray the window tracks a little too and can report the front passenger door is now working correctly. Yay!

So I turned my attention to the driver's door. I re-connected the new battery ( showing 13.14 volts after resting three days). I then locked the car with the fob while holding down the bonnet switch. Every door locked. I released the bonnet switch and the alarm was loud, silenced with the fob. I then unlocked with the fob, and only the driver's door didn't unlock. The actuator definitely moved, but not enough to unlock it. Tried the key manually, no luck. Tried the key manually while using the fob button and it popped open. So I locked the door, and was able to remove the key, and entered the car from the passenger side. I started the engine and she fired up very strongly, ran the engine for a minute and then turned the engine off. Locked the doors with the fob, then unlocked. The driver's door remained shut despite the actuator clearly moving up with definite decent amplitude. The interior handle wouldn't open the driver's door either, so I exited through the passenger side.
I'm starting to think I need a new driver's door actuator as well. :shrug:

Now that you've done the passenger side Martin, it's certainly worth removing the driver's door lock assembly for inspection. Is it possible to connect it electrically when out of the door and observe what's happening?

Simon

I had the window fully up and only sprayed the runners lower down just in case
:}

I've splashed out for a new latch/actuator from Rimmers, plus a new 'dogbone' since it was a cheap addition. I'll report later on the result and how the old and the new compare. Hoping for the same result as on the passenger side. Still puzzled they should both fail at the same time after the battery going flat. Coincidence can certainly be really confusing.

Well the new driver's door latch actuator and dogbone arrived during the week, and I finally got a chance to look at them. I decided to play with the new latch before fitting.

It arrived in the latch open position, so I pushed the latch closed using a screwdriver to simulate the bar on the door frame. I then pulled the lever which attaches to the internal door handle cable and it unlatched. I locked it again with the screwdriver and pulled the other lever which attaches to the external door handle linkage. Again it unlatched. So then I closed the latch again with the screwdriver and pressed the lever which is linked to the interior card button. It now stayed locked and nothing I did would open it!

So I had to fit the new actuator to the door in the locked position and hope that power to the solenoid would release it when the fob was activated.
Fitting went quite smoothly ( my learning curve on the front passenger door). I kept the old dogbone since it didn't want to release from the key barrel drive box end.

With the new latch located properly on the original dogbone, I pressed the key fob a few times and the solenoid fired up and unlocked the latch. I shut the door and all buttons went down using the fob. I then unlocked with the fob, but the driver's door didn't unlock despite the actuator lifting the button, unless I give it an assist with the key in the barrel.
I seem to have fitted a new latch but still got the same problem I had with the old latch. I can't imagine I damaged the new latch by playing with it prior to fitting? Could it be that the key barrel mechanism is the problem and my old latch is fine? I still can't unlock using the key! The key will lock all four doors, but won't open anything manually. Surely it has to be the barrel mechanism?
So I popped out to check the V8 driver's door. 90degrees right locks, 90 degrees left unlocks. On the 190, 90 degrees right locks, but it won't rotate 90 degrees left, it only goes to 12 o'clock. Do I perhaps need a new barrel mechanism? or have I possibly screwed up the installation of the new actuator?

...........but it won't rotate 90 degrees left, it only goes to 12 o'clock............


Disconnect the barrel from the lock assembly then try barrel rotation, if the same happens as above, then the problem is with the barrel, door handle assembly, if not then you need to look further.


Doubtful that the new lock assembly is damaged though.

There is a cable that connects the barrel assy to the lock assy and it is a known weak spot and can snap, worth checking when you remove the handle /barrel assy from car ;)

So following your suggestion Bill, I disconnected the dogbone and noticed that the barrel assembly would now rotate 90 degrees each way like it should. I noticed I still couldn't pull out the dogbone from the barrel mechanism, but it seemed to be rotating asymmetrically so I straightened it until it 'felt right'. I then made sure that the actuator was unlocked electronically by the fob, disconnected and removed it. I confirmed the manual operations on the bench were OK, but this time made sure the card button lever was in the 'up' position. It was then refitted on the door, carefully locating the dogbone. This seemed to work since the manual key operation would now go 90 degrees anti-clockwise from 12 o'clock as well clockwise 90 degrees for the first time. Much encouraged I tried it with power and found all operations to be normal after a minor adjustment to the outside door handle linkage.
Finally I disconnected the power to simulate a flat battery and the manual key unlocked the door as it should.
Whoop!Whoop!Whoop!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Last time I felt this pleased was when the boot in the 260 finally stopped collecting water:}
It's freezing outside tonight, so the door cards will have to wait.
I'll post a conclusion to this thread shortly.

So the fault was a bent linkage ("dogbone"), have I got that right?
Well done Bill and Martin!

Simon

The dogbone linkage was rotating asymmetrically. I had a new one, but the old one was held so tight in the key barrel linkage I bailed from trying to pull it out for fear of damaging the plastic casing around the drive from the key barrel. I had to satisfy myself with just lining it up better so that when I offered up the new actuator it was as symmetrical as possible. The dogbone itself wasn't actually bent. In fact, the new one I received looked so solid, I felt happy leaving the old one in, but remain puzzled as to why I couldn't remove the old one and whether it being held so tightly might be a portend of future problems?:shrug: I've filed away 'Stocktake's' advice that there is a cable connecting the barrel assembly to the lock assembly. If the driver's door starts playing up again, I'll be taking off the barrel assembly and investigating that cable and the mechanism. Just now however, all is well, and I'm a dog with three tails and a spare dogbone:D

A sudden current drain caused my battery to go very flat. The ticking noise was the BBUS trying to sound with no power ( it might have been going off all night without us hearing it ) I needed to access the battery, but with no power, the fob couldn't unlock the car. In my case, the manual key also failed to open the driver's door:eek::eek::eek:
Fortunately I managed to charge up the battery via pin 9 on the tow socket.
Without a permanent live pin 9 on the tow socket, it would have been a very awkward job getting the bonnet open to access the battery.

Conclusion. Check your manual key will open the car when the battery is disconnected. If it doesn't, you run the risk of quite a palaver to access the battery, (especially if all the mods to the bonnet release cable have been done to secure it firmly at the underbonnet splitter link.

The issues with the door latches were coincidental and not caused by the flat battery. I chose the fast option and bought new latch/actuators from Rimmers. Tip.... Don't press down the card button lever before fitting a driver's door actuator. It will be out of sync when fitted and cause issues with correct operation.
Both front doors are now working correctly. I added extra "Roadkill" insulation
on the inner face of the outer skin of both doors while I was there before replacing the door cards. (Completely forgot to lube the drivers door carrier rails for the electric windows, but did remember the passenger side.)
Now I have to track down the random current draw, but at least if the battery goes flat again, the manual key now opens the driver's door like it should:D

Many thanks again to everyone who posted advice:bowdown::bowdown:

PS. If anyone wants to examine the locks I took off, just let me know and I'll post them. The passenger lock latch was OK, but the actuator didn't seem to work. The actuator in the driver's lock was working, but weak.

Best lock lubricant is cabba lock cleaner. The new tins are butane powered rather than the pump spray of the old tins have bought a new tin to compare with my old tins the stuff inside is still the same just new packaging and now gas powered.


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