Bonnie scotland
 

Hi, just enjoying the morning sun from outside our van in a caravan site in Dumfries and Galaway. It’s a lovely part of the world, the cycling is so good. We only live 35 minutes south of the border in Cumbria so it’s no distance to come here. We are seriously going to look at house prices here near the coast with a view to buying in the near future.

Good idea - it will save the need for a passport (hopefully) in the near future.

The thought of Scottish independence horrifies me. I live 35 minutes from the non existent border. I fully understand the argument that Scotland has been dragged out of the EU against its Will, but 5 years of further Brexit type negotiations, arguments where the UK government takes the role of the EU and the Scottish government become the ‘brexiteers’ appalls me.

I totally support Scottish Independence. And I’m about a Scottish as a Cornish Pasty.

I think they should go it alone because it’s been on their agenda for decades. But I don’t think the U.K. becomes the equivalent of the EU - nor do I think Scotland becomes equivalent to the U.K. leaving the EU.

For a start, the money flows the other way.

The U.K. paid the EU a net sum of about £8billion a year (Actual sum was nearly double that but we got nearly half back via EU sponsored projects but the EU dictated where and how this rebated sum was spent.

In contrast, last year - for every £1000 per head raised via taxes for the Government of the Day to spend on running the country - England had £9,296 to spend per head - whilst Scotland received £11,247.

That is a whisker under 21% higher funding for Scotland.

Quite how the SNP will balance the books without the rest of the U.K. (and England in the main) bailing it out will be an interesting thing to watch.

So does England want to keep giving money to Scotland when Scotland’s Public Sector spend was £81billion but its total revenue was just £66billion? :shrug:

And this shortfall is plugged primarily by English Taxpayers alone.

The Labour MP for Edinburgh South, Ian Murray, recently pointed out that the above £15billion deficit is “the entire annual cost of Scotland’s NHS!”

So for those of us in England paying for all this and all we get in return is Scotland constantly referring to us as the “Olde enemy” - Scottish Independence looks like a very good thing indeed.

I think there is a sure fire way for Scotland to win an independence vote - and that is to let the English vote.

were they, I thought they had voted not to be independent?

macafee2

If the SNP get in, there’ll be another referendum.

Scot living in Cumbria. Will Scotland under the SNP seek independence, always. Does that mean independence is inevitable, no. I would say there is and will be for sometime a majority against independence, however with FPTP the SNP will be around for a very long time. With that they will try and pick the fight when it best suits the cause. The case will never be based on hard facts just emotions and so long as the likes of the SNP can mask the facts from their supporters the case will be strong, as facts mean nothing to many.

Mr Bountyful, it sounds very much as a rerun of Brexit. A referendum that people vote on depending on their emotional feelings about the general question, rather than it being clearly and fully defined. What worries me is the negotiating period , after a successful referendum and the independence date. I do not wish to live through another 5 years or so similar to what we have just experienced with Brexit. I’ve just drive through the border today, I would hate to see a manned border. A referendum would be very close, either side of 50:50, such votes should really not count until 60% is reach, a clear majority.

It may have been emotional for you - but for the majority of those who voted to leave the decision was taken on cold hard facts.

Only those desperate to stay in the EU chose emotion and spin via “project fear” to try to scare people into voting to remain.

As for 60% being a clear majority - that’s a numbers game and 50.1 % is a clear majority!! When you start bending the rules to deny the majority the result thus voted - then that is when democracy fails and revolution is on the cards.

As for project fear - none of the ridiculous claims came true - and like him or loath him Boris was elected with a huge mandate with a “Get Brexit Done” campaign

This was after Cameron and Osbourne stated that a No vote would trigger a year long recession. It didn’t happen

Apparently the economy would shrink by 3-6% and a Leave vote would consequently cost every household £4,300 a year. It didn’t happen.

The reality was that despite this dire warning of immediate impact the U.K. GDP grew 0.7% in the final quarter of 2016.

And if one thing has underlined the benefit of being free to make our own decisions - it has to be the contrasting vaccine rollout. Remainers even said the Government would be guilty of causing deaths by opting out of the EU Vaccination scheme. :shrug: They simply could not believe that the U.K. on its own could possibly do better. How wrong can you be?

I am sad that my many friends in Europe do not have the same jab access that we in the U.K. do. So does this mean we can point the finger at the EU and say they are guilty of causing deaths by mucking up their jab rollout?

I notice that those who made the false accusations stay very quiet about it now. In fact - even die-hard Europhiles are doubting the bloc's handling of the vaccination drive according to POLITICO.

It goes on to say - “Opinion polls suggest the EU is losing the public relations battle over vaccines among British audiences”

An Ipsos MORI poll showed 67% of Brits believed the U.K. handled the jab program better than the EU.

As for Scottish Independence - as I say, I hope it takes place. I am certain Scotland will thrive one it sorts itself out. The trouble is that there is an emotional tie within the four nations such that each and every time Scotland gets stroppy the U.K. gives it more money and bankrolls its debt.

Just as that silly NHS slogan bus with its £350million gross figure actually got people thinking about how much we paid. “it’s not £350m” shouted remainers!! - “It’s only £156m a week!!”

The virtual universal response from the undecided was “xxxx me! - as much as that? - I had no idea”. The same constant call for Independence for Scotland is making others ask “Why do they want to go when we have bribed them so much to stay?” - then the anger sets in over the opportunity cost to other parts and regions of the U.K. when the actual sums are revealed.

I suspect that once again the canny Scots will look at what they get out of the U.K. and decide to stay. And I think that is a mistake for Scotland as it breeds division and anger on both sides of the border - increasingly in England as Scotland has MPs in the House of Commons, but we have none in Holyrood and we give so much more per capita to Scotland than we receive.

Scotland should be able to stand on its own feet if it wants to. It could do well as an International Finance Centre similar to Dublin. In fact - with the U.K. outside of the EU it would be a true Win-Win for both. Scotland needs to grasp this - trouble is neither Salmond or Sturgeon seem to have sufficient “smarts” to see past the emotion of “the olde enemy pinching North Sea Oil”.

To answer the opening post..
Glad you are enjoying Dumfries and Galloway, it's a beautiful and often overlooked part of Scotland.
As you know many a Brexit thread was closed. I suspect that many a Scottish Independence thread will be closed too.
Let's not make this the first one guys. No politics please.

I appreciate what you say Simon - but would suggest it’s more of an economic subject. One that I am sure you will appreciate from both sides given your place of residence and mine!

Scotland- population 5.46 million

South West - population 5.57 million


Scotland GDP = £166.8 billion

South West GDP = £145.6 billion


GDP per person
Scotland £30,530
South West £23,362
U.K. average £27,428


U.K. Government Spend per person from tax revenue

Scotland = £11,566 per person
South West = £9,193 per person.


This is a 25.8% difference in favour of Scotland and to the detriment of the SW region. And yet population wise there is very little difference.

Literally - from where I stand right now - what is not to like about Scottish Independence.

(data from Gov.U.K. - Country and Regional Analysis.)

Excellent post. Well done:bowdown:
In any event my request was not to turn the thread political, simples.:shrug:

Thank you

Very much appreciated

If only it was............. simples...

Well the SNP will continue in power, I’m bracing myself for 5 yrs of Scotexit discussion. I’m not looking forward to it and it’s consequences.

In the wider and non-P word context, it would be simpler if wider but more democratic (from a point of view of non-partisan inclusion) if the whole of the UK were allowed a vote on what concerns every single one of us! 300 years are important!

After all, we all draw influence and benefit from and have vested interest in our combined future, no matter what a tiny partisan group see as existential. To limit a vote to a minority of committed and diversionary interested parties is a long way from democratic. It would also of course severely limit later accusations of 'a fix'.

Am away in my caravan at the moment, we are in Powburn, Northumberland. We have visited a few places on the border, Floors castle, Berwick upon Tweed, Kelso, Eyemouth and the air museum at East Fortune - everywhere has been stunning. Looking forward to visiting Abbotsford tomorrow and Edinburgh on Thursday.

Steve.

Referendum was supposed to be once in a generation not as many times as needed to get the result they want :mad:

A trick learned at the knee of Uncle EU.

But sometimes I wonder why the SNP make such an almighty hash of setting out exactly what their vision and plans are for Scottish Independence. :shrug:

For the previous referendum their plans were so inept and one product (oil) orientated that the majority of voters saw that it would never work and so voted against Independence.

And now, after an excellent showing in these latest elections and with the help of the Greens there is a majority in favour in Holyrood for another Referendum.

And I agree with Sturgeon that given this majority - NOT allowing another Referendum would cause far more problems for the U.K. as a whole.

So let’s bite the bullet and get on with it!

But where is the SNP’s plans and timeline for everyone to see so that voters are voting for something real and tangible rather than something based upon an emotional dislike of the English and Boris in particular.

I find it odd that just like UKIP - the SNP seems to be a single idea party. They do not seem (from the figures I’ve seen) to be able to run Scotland without building up a significant Deficit - which of course the rest of the U.K. currently bails Scotland out on.

So do the SNP actually want to achieve Independence? Because if the do the buck stops with them. And as yet, the lack of detailed plans is getting worrying.

Yes Covid needs sorting, but for the U.K. things are going well. So surely now would be the time to present a clear agenda and detailed manifesto on the benefits to all of Independen:shrug:

Instead we get “Well do it later”.

Why exactly is the SNP more keen on kicking this into the long grass?

Because if they DO NOT come up with the plans, are they banking on another “No” vote so that the status quo they seem to like can continue?

Or do they fear that they are a one trick pony akin to UKIP and once that “trick” is achieved - their reason and rationale for existence disappears.

As do the votes (just look at the latest (UKIP/Brexit party) results.

I say let’s ALL make sure a second referendum on Scottish Independence takes place. The sooner the better. A yes vote would force the SNP into the real world as the U.K. teat would be removed. A No vote, so close after the previous would really clear the table for a United Kingdom.

I think Scotland deserves better than a “one trick pony”.

So what about independence for the Shetland isles or Aberdeenshire, come to think of it let’s give everyone independence in minutiae. The problem is the rural communities are dominated by the decisions of masses in the central belt, and one could argue what do they do for us, certainly decisions are taken not in our favour.
Eventually there will be another vote for independence, when who knows but I can assure you that there are a lot of quiet folks that don’t have delusions of Mel Gibsons Braveheart in their minds that will step up to vote on the day. The independence dudes are generally all shouty and get the most coverage on media unfortunately.

Come on HMG beat them to it. Call an independence vote for England that will put the Mel Gibsons fans on the back foot.

If there is a strong feeling for it - let the people vote I say.

What about “Independence” for English Regions? If you look at post 11 I believe I have put the issue into perspective in that Scotland is only about the same size in terms of population and GDP as the SW of England.

And yet Scotland gets U.K. government funding 28% higher than the SW. Scotland has its own devolved government (that perpetually runs up a deficit even with 28% greater funding) and yet Scotland does not want to be part of the Union that provides it with all this money and self governance :shrug:

Why should such a small part of the U.K. receive so much more than other regions?

The money the U.K. gives Scotland just seems to annoy the Scottish Independence seekers more and more! :duh:

Scotland needs to understand that when it’s great city of Edinburgh gets ranked 4th best place in the U.K. to live and a city like Plymouth gets ranked 59th, people start to ask why should we keep throwing money at a small region of the U.K. that constantly and consistently states it does not want to be part of the Union that actually funds it at a significantly higher level to the detriment of other, more deserving, regions.

As I have said before - What is not to like about Scottish Independence when we in the SW get just 92p per person back for every £1 tax raised whilst Scotland gets a whopping £1.16 - and yet Scotland does not seem to like it?

I hear you, i just wish the Mel Gibson fans would look at it from this perspective. HMG needs to play this card more.

Oh please don’t burst my bubble!!! .....:D:D:D:getmecoat: - we are all looking forward to getting some of that 28% down here in the SW!!

I’m not unduly concerned about the money involved. In a true union of states (if we are considered equals) every region should be adequately funded. That seems, in my view, a noble and equitable aim. Very few of the regions or Counties can boast an exactly suitable mix of industry with which to fund its rural make-up, so central funding is essential.

There does however seem to be bubbling away, scared of being ‘fronted’, an unspoken, possibly historical, enmity towards anything south of the border. By a very tiny minority of angry protestors, that’s citizens rather than constituencies, Scotland is demonstrating what elsewhere would be likely to attract severe criticism. That’s sectarianism by any other name and is, everywhere else thankfully, consigned to the waste bin. Maybe it will be here, too.

A brilliantly worded post as per usual Ray.

And I agree - all regions should be treated fairly. And yes - enmity towards the “olde enemy” south of the border is thinly disguised within some individuals but most certainly not all!!

(Edit - this reads not as I meant it - I meant that “not all” show enmity - quite the reverse in my experience- I did not mean to convey that “not all” are able to thinly disguise such enmity - Apologies)

And also yes, (you are brave to say it - ) it is sectarianism - not least because those of us in the SW with a region of similar size, GDP and equivalent geography (large areas of farmland and moors with hi tech industries in key area - plus the largest onshore oil field in Europe at Wytch Farm in the Purbeck Hills of Dorset) - we wonder exactly why, an equivalent region to ourselves gets its own Parliament Building with 129 MSP’s at a build cost of over £400million and running costs of said Parliament of £millions a year - plus a further 59 MP’s in the House of Commons in Westminster......:shrug:

When we in the SW exist on just 55 MP’s at Westminster. But get 28% less funding........

It's a tricky subject but, I'm sure we are mature enough to conduct it with respect to our Hibernian cousins!

The obvious disparity in funding is a result of appeasement over the devolution issue.

Those restless highland breasts 'came slightly less obsessed
With patriotism, when Barnett came and went.
The pipes corked, the skirl muted, the glens fell still and silent.
The heroes all gone, the battles now won, we settled for a handful of grain.
Our glory is there, we need not face them again.


Thought it was worth a reappraisal of mine of August 2016 to forestall any charges of bias!:

'I had a Scottish grandparent and two great-grand parents, maybe that’s why I would want Independence if I were ‘more’ Scottish. Even so, to become part of EU after becoming Independent from UK would be a worse option than staying part of UK. If Scots think they are somehow under the yolk as they are, the thought of changing UK for EU is a horror story.

Whatever Scots may think of the English part of the UK, you are wrong. Scotland is admired and respected as a nation, as people, and celebrated as probably the most distinctive part character-wise of the whole.

The dream of self-determination is everybody’s dream, and you already have it! With UK about to become free of the mess over the channel, your future is about to develop hugely to your advantage'.

Now, following events 5 years later:

The dream for independence is, for the SNP, allied with membership of EU. This is only granted when certain monetary standards are met. For instance, an application to become a member can only be considered if the applicant signs up to the Euro and current statements from SNP confirm they will ‘retain’ the £ for an uncertain term.

The Scottish national debt is also way out of kilter with EU basic requirements and the loss of UK regional funding/support would be bankruptcy before they started. UK is hardly likely about to fund Scotland’s membership of EU!

In the news recently the NatWest says they will remove their HQ from Scotland to London in the event of independence! Now that’s just a bit short of a recommendation! It’s not Scotland that wants this, it’s the SNP. They are perfectly entitled to want it of course, but the wider electorate might not agree.

[QUOTE=
"those of us in the SW" and "When we in the SW" ........[/QUOTE]

Isn't Fordingbridge in the SE ?

Would it not be better to compare the data for that area with Bonnie Scotland as it would be more relevant to your own location? :}

I live 5 min from Wiltshire and 5 min from Dorset. My office/place of work was Ferndown and Bridport.

Where is “Home” for you?

Made the comment as your profile says Forgingbridge, which is in the SE, unless its moved. https://www.visitsoutheastengland.co...bridge-p647141
Just thought it would be better to compare the statistics of your own district with Bonnie Scotland instead of your next door neighbours for all to scrutinise. Just saying like.

Not a dickie bird about how the distributed debt would be serviced.

Not a dickie bird about a currency.

Not a dickie bird about border control (an insistence by the EU if they successfully join).

Not a dickie bird about how higher taxation (of Scottish population either resident or overseas) would be necessary or the acceptance of very limited service provision.

Good 'ole Tony "I'm a straight sort of guy" Blair and his sofa cabinet!

Kev

I believe most of the islands (not being Scottish origin) voted for Brexit and against independence. If so, will they be allowed to stay within the UK or will they be sold down the river as just a minority?

Kev

The difference is even more dramatic if you do compare the SE Region with Scotland. Based on the same Country an regional analysis data from the National Statistics Office:-

Scotland is £11,566 spend per head

U.K. Average is £9,895

SW is £9,193

And SE is lower still at £8,919 :shrug:

That’s actually 29.67% LESS funding per head than Scotland. NEARLY 30% GREATER FUNDING PER HEAD FOR SCOTLAND!

As for where I live - if you look at the map - Hampshire has a thin spur that extends across the top of Dorset and under Wiltshire such that Fordingbridge is further West than about 50% of Wiltshire and Further to the West than Bournmouth. My post code is SP6 which is a Salisbury Wiltshire code and Ringwood just to the South of us has a BH23 post code that is a Bournemouth Dorset Code.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make really - given the fact that if I wanted to make a more extreme point then the data from the SE would have been even more dramatic.

But the main point is a business one - where I live is pretty irrelevant if my business was in the SW :shrug:

At the last Independence vote only 4 of the thirty odd regions actually voted for Independence.

Dundee City
Glasgow
North Lanarkshire (slimmest of margins)
West Dunbartonshire

I think the SNP had better make a far better job of presenting the benefits of Independence at the next referendum than they did at the last.

Shetlands seek Independence from Scotland
 

The situation in Jersey has been in the news of late. And it does underline the Status that Jersey has with the U.K. in that Jersey is not part of the U.K. but is a self governing dependency of the Crown.

Guernsey and the Isle of Man are the same. It would be fascinating to consider the reaction if the U.K. entered into negotiations with the Shetlands to grant Crown Dependency status.....

I think that is what the government should offer if the islands still vote against independence. This should also apply to Yorkshire :devil:

Kev

Why not? :D

As for the Shetlands and Orkneys - their route to possible independence from Scotland should Scotland leave the Union was set out in the “Jo Grimond Referendum” back in 1978 - and it still stands as an option.

Scottish Devolution was on the cards but this did not sit well with the Islanders. The Islanders voted by 89.9% to keep this option open.

And what is happening to Jersey regarding fishing seems to have hit a nerve with the Shetlands and the Orkneys. Not least because of their huge fishing industry and how Brexit gives them back control and the very LAST thing the Islanders want is for an Independent Scotland to shove them back into the EU fishing quota system.

So being a Crown Dependency like the Channel Islands looks attractive. As a Crown Dependency, they like The CI’s would come under the protection of the U.K. but even when the U.K. was in the EU, the CI’s (and the IoM) were not.

And it seems that Shetland in particular does not like how it is being run by Scotland at the moment. In a recent interview Malcolm Bell of the Shetland Islands Council said that “Edinburgh had both gained powers from London and sucked them from Scottish local councils. - Shetland has lost control of Public Health, its water utilities, its Police and Fire Services.”

“ The SNP’s power-grab has been relentless “ he said.

The latest thing to upset the Islanders is the SNP’s move to centralise air traffic control to Inverness so there will be cameras not human beings in the control towers at the Northern Isles Airports.

There are many examples of autonomy for Islands - not just our CI’s and the IoM.
The Faroe Islands is an Autonomous Territory of Denmark. Also the Aland Islands are an autonomous region of Finland.

And then of course - there is the Falklands......:eek: