Sale of bagged coal & wet wood restricted
 

Blimey! Log burning owners beware :eek: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56949426
"Curbs on the sale of house coal and wet wood for household burning in England have come into force under new rules aimed at cutting air pollution."

I rarely burn logs in my wood burner, scrap pallets, left over materials and anything else that will combust.

What will happen next, will the police be flying over our houses in the winter to see who is emitting smoke?

I got it that something needs to be done but when the rest of world is doing little or nothing why are we making our lives more difficult?

They will be a ban on charcoal BBQ's next.

All very nice but I wonder what I and our neighbours are supposed to use?

There is no mains gas so simply changing the boiler and linking in to the existing heating isn't possible.

There is bottled gas - if you fancy a second mortgage to buy it and can get all the relevant permissions for storage etc.

There is oil but that's hardly the way forward is it? We'd be ripping out one form of pollution for another one which is probably just as bad.

There's electric but as the property is close on 200 years old it's not quite a simple as it sounds. Which also makes heat source/ground source practically impossible.

And then there's domestic coal - which, apparently, we can't buy anymore. Although maybe we could buy 2 cubic metres - that'll look pretty on the front lawn - I'm sure no one will mind ;).

It'll be nippy over the Winter :eek:.


Oh, and how is it more efficient when we'll have to buy all new stuff which, presumably, creates no pollution in getting the raw materials, transporting them to be refined and manufactured, getting the products to the shops and out to us to be installed. And then paying probably more for the privileged of being as warm as we are already.

A log burner in a room really does heat the room well but wood takes so long to grow I cant see it as sustainable.
My daughter has been lucky and has picked up for free a couple of years worth of wood and corrugated roofing plus pallet's to make a log store as well as a log store as well.
I think only this last week my neighbour had coal delivered

Selling new gas and oil burners to be fazed out, wood burning is not really sustainable.
Solar is expensive to install.
what price saving our planet?

macafee2

Scotland lagging behind atm on this subject, but is up for discussion too by the sound of it. State interference to appease the green zealots will cause an equal and opposite reaction somewhere that will have other knock on effects. It’s like a race to get back to caveman days.

Should point out that the wood I purchase for my burner is already dried and users can continue to use that I believe. Banning Coal is a joke though. On the majority of days in April the UK had to burn it to keep up with the energy requirements when wind power was doing diddly squat. All this will do is drive up prices for the users, still at least that wee dwarf in Sweden will be happy.

Meanwhile the Chinese continue to open up new coal mines to feed their 18% growth since the covid collapse. Makes our gesture look pitiful.
Try purchasing “clean” solar panels? Made by coal and using up finite resources to boot. :duh:

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...-di-alexander/

We're on bottled gas, no mains supply. When I first moved here with my folks it was a coal fire with boiler behind it, dirty, expensive and a high wind in the right direction would create a draft up the chimney and actually boil the water at night, sounded like somebody hitting a bass drum in the lounge :D Many a time had to get up during the night to run some hot water and cool everything down.

Maybe 30 years ago my parents made enquiries about mains gas, would cost tens of thousands to get a line in from the main to the cottages. Three of the four cottages were up for it, the owner of the fourth wasn't. Nobody wanted to shell out that kind of money for the remaining cottage to tie in at a later date for a fraction of the cost. The current owner of the remaining cottage has recently gone to gas, has a storage tank in the garden, wasn't an option here, nowhere on the property was far enough from the house. Before gas he was persuaded to install some all singing all dancing electric system . . . . it added £400+ a MONTH to his electric bill and kept blowing up meters! Running the heating on bottled gas isn't cheap during the winter but you make up for it during the summer where its only needed for hot water.

There was talk about a Hydrogen powered heating/cooking system a couple of years ago that used the existing gas mains system to distribute the fuel but this seems to have gone silent recently.

As much as electric seems to be being pushed I wonder once the powers that are in charge at the time when we start running out will realise they have made a mistake.

You only have to look at decisions like pushing diesel cars several years later are realised are bad decisions.

I agree most of us can use an electric for a lot of stuff but there is not an exhaustible supply of Lithium and of course how are we going to charge all these batteries?

We need in my opinion a structered approach to clean energy.

Electric for small items makes sense but hydrogen fuel cells make a lot more sense and the hydrogen can be sourced from splitting water with wind powered farms.

We only have a small open fire at home, that is the only heat source (other than a plug in fire if it gets really cold), we can't burn wood , our insurance prohibits it as the roof is thatched and the building is wooden framed.
We don't have mains gas (or water) and as we live over half a mile from any buildings with main supply, the price of connecting up is prohibitive.
We have an emersion heater we use in the warmer months for hot water, as the open fire has a back boiler when we use it in colder weather we get 'free' hot water (although we do have to keep as eye on it and run off some water if the system gets too hot!).
The only option we realistically have would be electric heating, but as our cottage is 400 odd years old and listed that would not be practical.
I guess we will continue to burn (smokeless) coal and as we are 'out in the sticks' hope that no one notices!

Germany has been building Geo-thermal power stations & geologist have found enough boiling hot lithium to supply 400 million BEV's :eek: Two birds with one stone or what! Kerching. https://todaynewspost.com/auto-news/...e-rhine-river/

I wonder if HM Govt will pay the costs of converting properties where coal is the primary heat source :shrug: including the costs of, say, bringing power from the Grid. There can't be that many of us, surely?

So nothing for those who have a fire for aesthetic reasons and have another way of heating their home.

Let me guess - No.

I rarely have an open fire, but there is still nothing like one. My home is sufficiently original to still have open hearths in 3 lounges and 3 of the bedrooms, and although I rarely use them, I don't think my continued use will make a scrap of difference. The UK contributes less than 1% of the carbon footprint of the world, so a long way to go for the rest!

Lol, I’m involved in Geo-thermal, if only they knew the true costs. Tax payer funded. Never mind it’s one of the most profitable arms of our business with everyone jumping on the bandwagon and ultimately lining the pockets of the new green elite.

More likely they'll tax the fossil fuel motorists to pay for it.

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeon's,

I'm "trimming" my tree's down at the side of my house.
I'll soon have quite a lot of wet wood that'll be free to anyone on here who can come and collect it.
It'll obviously need to be dried out over summer so it can be burnt in winter time.
I believe they are beech tree's.

I'm in Derby.

Message me if anyone is interested.

Richard.

In some ways I’m pleased to see that the burning of wood is now seen to have negative consequences. Albeit primarily in our leafy lanes and suburbs where it became fashionable to have a wood-burner installed.

Dealing with the ash and dust was a bit of a wake up call for many tho’.

Broadening the issue out a bit, if Propane is burnt for heat and cooking it pretty much burns completely so no ash or dust. But Propane is of course a fossil fuel and so in the eyes of the likes of Greta the Doom Goblin - propane is akin to the Devils flatulence.

So it’s being banned and people in the Third World must not have it! So they do burn coal and wood for heat and cooking and often live in the room where the open fire is lit.

The effect on their health is enormous.

The effect on the Forests with people chopping down wood to burn contributes to Deforestation. Something in my book that is FAR more worrying than an increase in CO2 from 0.039% to 0.04%.

In fact NASA has shown that this slight increase in CO2 has contributed to the greening of the planet by supporting the growth of more plant biomass.

So - we in the U.K. are to be banned from burning coal and wood - but we also forbid poorer countries from having access to Propane so that they have to chop down trees and burn wet wood and sometimes coal.

I have yet to meet a so called “Climate Change Extremist” that can grasp this simple paradox. They are the only people I know that can put two and two together and swear blind the answer is three.

For some reasonMaslow's hierarchy of needs sprung to mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow...archy_of_needs).

Basic needs include Food, Water and Shelter. So you need to be able to cook food and keep yourself warm and this will be by whatever means are available pretty much regardless of what may or may not happen tomorrow/next week/next year or at some point in the future.

There's another thread on here about "Professionals"

I wonder how narrowboats will be affected? I watch a few narrow boating vids on youtube just to see the beautiful rural canal scenery we have in this country.


From what I've seen almost all of them use bagged house coal for their wood burning stoves.

What about Heritage Railways,they burn tons of coal every day

And Traction Engines, I know they dont do a lot of mileage but a friend who has one was telling me he has to order the 3 or 4 tons of coal he needs at least a couple of weeks ahead of him needing it and it is sourced now from China :eek:

For events more than 60 miles from his base he gets a low loader to take it to the event but for more local events he enjoys the drive. He has an original caravan he tows and stops at most pubs on route to refresh the engine with water and refreshment for him.

Railways, Steam Traction Engines, Narrowboats - all part of our heritage that some would rather us not admit to let alone celebrate.

If there is a Statue put up somewhere to any of the above the “mobocracy” will tear it down and chuck it in the canal rather than celebrate how Steam, Canals and Railways enabled us to get to where we are today.

Kids are taught that they are in receipt of undeserved “privilege” today and so must destroy heritage rather than acknowledge it - and learn from it - warts and all.

Not sure if Steaming coal for Loco's is being banned like bagged house coal?:shrug:

Looks like I’ll have to start burning the old tyres then...

The ban only applies to domestic consumption.
To put that in perspective that is only around 5% of our coal usage, with the other 95% not affected. ;)

On a wider scale the UK only accounts for about 0.5% worldwide consumption of coal and China, alone, uses over 50%.
Our annual consumption of domestic coal can be measured in minutes when compared to China's massive coal eating power stations.
I suppose they have to get all that power from somewhere to make all of those batteries for our green vehicles. :duh:

I personally think that this is nothing other than environmental green propaganda, so people in the street think that good things are going on.
It is good for moral, rather like ripping up all of the wonderful Victorian railings around our parks, cemeteries and houses. Telling people that they are going to build Spitfires out of wrought iron, then dumping it all in the sea.

Rant over, I am now off to spark up the woodburner. :D:getmecoat:

You don't say what you're using now?





Well you can still burn solid fuels, even coal if you have it (no-one will be able to sell it to you though). The main issue with solid fuels are that they are too energy dense, burn too hot and eat through the grate... but then that justifies the price compared to coal.



Seems to be some confusion. These bans have zero to do with carbon emissions (at least on paper) and are supposedly about local particulate pollution. No-one in their right mind burns wet wood deliberately unless that's all they've got it's hard to light, half the energy goes towards self drying (so doesn't give much heat). Most people that used to buy wet wood was for seasoning at home (often for 2 years). When buying a sizeable quantity there's a distinct saving over buying seasoned fuel from the log supplier. Solid 'smokeless' fuels are more energy dense than coal, but burn sometimes too hot, the burner and/grate used needs to be rated for it.
Both Coal and wet wood produce a lot of fine ash which goes up the chimney to come down somewhere else when it cools. I'm not sure why dry wood is different for airborne ash production.

Just less than a half mile from me we have a coffee roasting plant....... That creates a ton of dust (and an especially strong burnt coffee bean stink) whenever they do a dark roast session. The fallout over the neighbourhood puts all the local log burners to shame.

Gel fire open fires
 

As Avulon says - this ban is little to do with CO2 and all about particulates.

Can I suggest those that like an open fire have a look at alcohol gel fires. We had one in our last house and loved it in the winter.

Relatively cheap and an be installed anywhere as they do not need a chimney or flue.

We bought ours with us as funnily enough the couple that bought our old house wanted a log burner!!

So we know have our stainless steel Gel Fire on an outside wall in the Garden where we light it in the evening and sit round it when the weather is good but a bit of heat is nice. We buy bottled ethanol online, 12 bottles in a box - not expensive

Do check them out. The ability to have an open fire on any wall in your home - and one you can easily move - and even take with you if you move - is quite a bonus.

I cannot post pics on here so if anyone wants to see ours in operation PM me with your email and I’ll send some pics. I’m happy for the pics to be reposted on here.

The downside is that the heat generated is not a “roaring fire” by any stretch. But the background heat is excellent. Similar to the alcohol gel pots caterers use in Chafing trays.

The alcohol tank on ours is a bit small. But lasts about an hours and a half. If I were doing it now I would order two trays so that of an evening, when the first runs out, a few minutes to cool, then take the empty one out and replace with the filled second one.

www.biofires.com

Is a site worth a look.

[QUOTE=Avulon;2879676]....You don't say what you're using now?....../QUOTE]

Coal. But we can only store about 1/2 ton at a time so we get most in "sacks" straight off the lorry into the bunker and then the balance of the order in bags.

[QUOTE=AndyN01;2879711]
Unfortunately you will be affected by this. You'll be forced to switch to 'artificial' 'smokeless' coal or coal substitutes. Yes they do cost more, the bonus is you don't use as much for the same heat value. But I can't say if it balances out or not. Our last home we had a multi-fuel burner and used a mix of coal and solid fuels. With these solid fuels it's vital that your burner or grate is up to the job of coping with the heat or you'll face issues. Our multi fuel need the internal baffle breaking to remove it for sweeping after about 3 years and needed replacing. Further back in time on an open fire the grates would last no more than 2 winters on solid fuels before wearing too thin.

Just ordered two builders bags of wood from my local estate supplier, cannot see the legislation affecting this cash in hand sort of small scale business. His wood is mostly ash which is very dry anyway.

Well it's unlikely to affect this sort of sale. the majority of 'propper' log merchants only sell seasoned or kiln dried logs anyway. Some of the bigger operations will, during the summer months, sell green wood for seasoning at home, but that is usually in larger qty's. Green wood seasoning naturally can take 2+ years to dry out. As far as logs are concerned the main target of this new legislation is the forecourt and similar sales of cheap netted logs that are sometimes of dubious provenance, and not guaranteed sufficiently dry enough (<20% moisture).

You’re right - I can get pic’s posted - Phil very kindly has done this for me in the past. As for why I cannot post a link or a pic on here - I used to be able to and then at some point, whatever hoops the site asked me to jump through, failure was the only outcome.

So I gave up. It is strange tho’ as I can and regularly do post both links and pics on on other sites.:shrug:

Oh! er missus, Some amendments to wood burning stoves since the Environmental bill became the Environmental act last month if you live in a 'Smoke Control Area'.


"Schedule 12 amends the Clean Air Act 1993 to allow local authorities to impose financial penalties in smoke control areas. This seems to be squarely aimed at reducing PM2.5 emissions, since domestic stoves/fires are known to contribute significantly to PM2.5 levels. The existing criminal offence of emitting smoke from a chimney in a smoke control area is replaced with a civil penalty regime, which should enable a quicker and simpler style of enforcement for emissions of smoke in these areas." https://airqualitynews.com/2021/12/20/e ... r-quality/

[QUOTE=SCP440;2879197]I rarely burn logs in my wood burner, scrap pallets, left over materials and anything else that will combust.

I got it that something needs to be done but when the rest of world is doing little or nothing why are we making our lives more difficult?



The UK has always bent over backwards to appease the the Climate Change Zealots.. where as the rest of the world say yes and do nothing.

[QUOTE=Number 6;2913450]someone has to do something, if everyone does nothing, then nothing will improve.

macafee2

Surely no one is suggestion the United Nations "200 Scientists" might be wrong. Lots of lovely money involved in the Climate emergency scam. Tut tut. some of us might end up in a Re-education camp. Chris S.

[QUOTE=Number 6;2913450]
It's not just wet wood & bagged coal! There are big changes afoot with rebated fuels (red diesel & bio-diesel from waste oil ) from the first of April 2022 due to the climate change carbon zero policy.


I have a friend who is a constant cruiser on a narrowboat & I was going to ask him how he will be affected because he uses red diesel for propulsion & heating.:shrug:


https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ls-entitlement


Other industries and applications that will no longer be able to fuel with rebated red diesel include:

• Leisure;
• Manufacturing;
• Mining and quarrying;
• Oil and gas extraction;
• Road maintenance;
• Airport and seaport operations;
• Plant hire;
• Logistics and waste management;
• Any commercial heating and haulage—refrigeration units on lorries will no longer be able to run on red diesel.

[QUOTE=Lancpudn;2914584]Some sarcasm on my part
phew for a moment I thought it was a way for the government to raise money, having read the web page from the link I see it is for environmental reasons.

It is amazing that going from red diesel to white diesel will improve the environment.

I hope this is not taken out of context but it is from the web page.
"At Budget 2020, the government therefore announced that it would remove the entitlement to use red diesel and rebated biodiesel from most sectors from April 2022 to help meet its climate change and air quality targets."


Changing from red to white diesel I cant see making an environmental difference.

macafee2

[QUOTE=macafee2;2914598]
Agreed it beggars belief. I read another part of this policy where it says... "Registered fuel suppliers that switch a fuel tank from red to white diesel will need to flush out the tank and supply lines until no trace of marked rebated fuel remains. This will help to ensure compliance and minimise the risk that white diesel that has had the full duty rate paid on it is contaminated with the red diesel marker."

[QUOTE=Lancpudn;2914599]I read that too and thought how unnecessary.

macafee2

[QUOTE=macafee2;2914615]
They seem to want to get rid of very quickly, Queue more diesel thefts when it kicks in no doubt.

I live on a narrowboat myself, and there is to be no change to the current situation, whereby a boater has to declare a "split" when purchasing fuel, fuel intended for propulsion being charged at the full DERV rate and fuel used for heating, battery charging etc being charged at the red diesel rate.

Government response

4.6 Following consultation, the government has decided to maintain the entitlement to use red diesel beyond April 2022 for all commercial boat operating industries, including but not limited to the fishing and inland water freight industries.

4.7 The government has therefore decided not to change the treatment of private pleasure craft in Great Britain, where they will continue to be able to use red diesel and pay their fuel supplier the difference between the red diesel rate and the white diesel rate on the proportion they intend to use for propulsion.

Oh! Thanks for that info, I've not been able to contact my mate on the narrowboat.

This nis going to be a bit random as I cant remember all f the various contributions.

1st wood; we burn wood as the principal source of heat. The wood comes from the hedgerow around the field and I cut out the dead elms (they still grow to a reasonable size) and burn them in the Rayburn rather than having a fire in the meadow. Combustion of wood and the emission of particulates is the same but the heat produced keeps us warm (ish). We have a back up natural gas boiler that uses Calor as there isnt a gas main anywhere near. Use the Calor gas VERY sparingly as its so expensive.
Ref red diesel; I thought for heating you could change the burner set up and use 28 sec heating oil (as opposed to 35 sec which is diesel or gas oil; whatever you want to call it).
I saw once some sort of Heath Robinson device on a trailer for making gas from wood to drive a motor car engine. This was WW2 stuff and dont think cars that have been made in the last 50 years would cope but may give it a try some time.
If I remebererd more this would ramble on so breath a sigh of relief!

I cannot see how we can go green so quickly across a number of fronts as the country cannot afford it. In particular the poorer end of our society have a struggle as it is to feed and heat the property. We have to be sensible about this, the politicians down south are wealthy people and can afford it, many others are not so lucky. I’ve just ordered another builders bag of hardwood, it’s not kiln dried, if it was it would be more than £55 a bag, that I pay. Heating bills are going to almost double this year. We have to be sensible or the government will loose the people.

There are different interpretations of the split, and how much money should be given to HMRC when buying fuel.

Obviously when under way your batteries are being charged and the water in your calorifier ( a bit like a narrowboat immersion heater) is being heated up, but the question is "Is the battery charging and hot water a by-product of the propulsion, or is the propulsion a by product of the battery charging and water heating?"

The answer largely depends on the personal integrity of the individual boater. :}

Greta wont like this! :D Google searches for wood burning stoves are up 36% since the same period in 2020 due to sky high energy increases. :eek: https://airqualitynews.com/2022/01/1...-stoves-up-36/

I'm not surprised. I've always thought that houses with chimneys would start to command higher prices than the ones which have had them removed. :D

I have stoves in four rooms of the house. We're in a smokeless zone of course so will keep an eye on how the rules affect things.