Diesel ban, Bristol
 

There’s been a lot of talk about this. Now it’s happening in Bristol:

‘Bristol is set to become the first city in Britain to ban diesel cars under the toughest measures yet seen to combat air pollution.

The city council wants to prohibit diesels from entering part of the centre from 7am to 3pm daily to cut dangerous levels of nitrogen dioxide (NO2).

It will apply to all diesels, irrespective of age, including the cleanest Euro 6 models registered since 2015. Owners of petrol cars will be exempt, though research shows that older petrol vehicles release high levels of emissions.

Drivers who ignore the ban will be fined as part of the measures, due from March 2021. Motoring groups labelled the plans “unprecedented” and said that many low-income families would be hit.’ Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...cars-kbrlz6ttw

Anyone going to be affected by this? Fortunately mine’s a petrol.

i can see this being the thin edge of the sword.
Council beauracrats trying to be enlightened greens.
We have councils over here trying to enact rules no one wants

Only cars? What about the "dangerous levels of nitrogen dioxide" from vans, HGVs, buses and coaches?

It's always the private motorist who pays.

Simon

They earn more money than the average motorist, so the lack of time they spent at the pumps isn't as much of an issue.

It's all about money, and naff all about emissions.

Bristol has always been a bit of a Animal Farm outpost. Chris.S.

Until there is a suitable alternative to driving through a city it will not work.
Look at the brilliant park and ride system in Oxford. So good we plan to use it every time we go there.
Parking is free. Bus charges a couple of £ each return journey. Takes about 15 minutes. You could of course walk if you have the time.
Cheaper than parking charges, no hassle finding a place to park, someone else does the driving and you can be there all day with no extra charge.
If the car was banned outright in Cheltenham centre tomorrow it would be fantastic. Not because of the climate warrior clan of which I am not a member but the experience of walking through a town centre with no traffic.
We should protect our town and city centres by removing vehicles altogether and giving us a better experience with al fresco dining and much much more. Who wants to eat a cream tea with a bus flying past?
Ball crocks to the environment, the high street and its traders are dying because we are not changing it fast enough. Make it a destination place not a chore. How many of us dread going to the city or town centre because it’s an awful place to go?

Get them deselected!.

In Southampton the cruise ships and container ships cause more pollution but they are still blame diesel cars

Now there's the truth if you ever need it

Just yet another reason for me to not bother visiting Bristol, and I was born there and all my family are still there! (mostly on the outskirts though). As long as they don't try incorporating the M4/M5 into any anti diesel scheme.

How true! A few local authorities have joined the C40 initiative besides implementing government mandates for the Paris accord commitments!


Off the top of my head the last time I looked Greater Manchester,Oxford & Birmingham, oh and Scotland.
The programmes presented by the initiative include everything from the full electrification of company fleets by 2030, up to cities who plan to solely purchase electric buses by 2025. The climate alliance now compromises a total of more than 60 members.


They've just implemented it in Spain & all eyes are on Catalonia.
Guess who is going to fund it!!!
For the new carbon tax coming in, the government expects to add about 150 million euros a year to its budgets.

Catalonia wants to levy the carbon tax for 2019 for the first time in November 2020. It will then initially apply to vehicles emitting 120 grams of CO2 per kilometre or more. Vehicles that emit more than 95 g CO2 per kilometre will then be taxed for 2020. In practice, owners of a Porsche Cayenne with CO2 emissions of 265 g/km, for example, will have to pay a tax of €127 for 2019 and €176 for the following year.



Looks like my Kia Niro hybrid which emits 95g/CO2/Km will have to pay the carbon tax after next year if they go by that initiative. :eek:


As Dylan sang! The times they are a changin'

When the centre of Bristol dies because no one goes there, local councillors will form a new committee to find out why.
Earlier this year we took our 2 granddaughters for a long weekend in Bristol. I must say we found loads to do within walking distance of our hotel apart from the Zoo which was a taxi ride.
We drove to the hotel. Why? Because one of them had a health condition that I would not expect her to suffer on public transport. The car was safe, private and comfortable for her. I have no doubt we would have thought again about the trip and maybe not gone if my LPG Rover 75 was banned from the City. I realise not everyone has to factor health into their decisions. I spent a small fortune in 3 days there. Can a City afford to put doubt in people’s minds? More importantly, as I have suggested, can the City provide an alternative such as Oxford’s park and ride which works so well?
This dilemma is going to take many years to unravel.

I have used the park and ride schemes in Oxford, York and Durham, and they worked well for me, a relatively fit and healthy person. If Bristol council is not going to find mass revolt on its hands, it needs to ensure that suitable and adequate (or better)public transport is available before imposing this harsh decree. For visitors unable to cope with trams, buses etc, there should be hireable evs in the same park and ride car parks. I was very impressed by the integrated green transport systems in Lisbon when when I visited this year. From the same bus terminal, you could hire electric bikes or electric buggies (with driver). It just takes a little imagination and a "can-do" attitude.

Totally agree about alternative means.While in Spain we did a 40 min journey on local bus for 1.50 euro. Back home the price for a 20 min journey into Merthyr is over £3. This price makes it cheaper for even one person to go by car.

Will diesel "ad-blue" compliant cars be forbidden?

According to Gnu, the OP, - YES! But you have until March 2021 at least, so get lobbying -they may be persuaded to rethink.

Yes it's a blanket ban on all privately owned diesel vehicles.


Quote from the LocalGov site.


"It would mean a ban on all privately-owned diesel vehicles together with a charging zone for non-compliant commercial vehicles such as buses, taxis, HGVs and LGVs."

Because there are more private motorists to fine

You couldnt make it up! :duh:
I hope to remain driving socially unacceptable diesels for many more years to come. When they ban them from certain cities I simply wont go there and I suspect others wont either, then they can whinge about their city centre traders going out of business!

As predicted, there is a strong movement against this proposal, I think they will have to use a more phased approach. I'd be annoyed at having to take £2,000 against a new EV for scrapping my £1000 CDT, let alone if I had £20K+ tied up in a recent Euro6 diesel, that only contributes CO2, like any IC engine.

1. Owners of petrol cars will be exempt - from a ban on diesels :duh:
2. I own a petrol car - will I be exempt if I drive my diesel?

Thin end of the wedge!





Because even city councillors realise that their shops will have nothing to sell if they stop diesel vans and lorries from delivering.





I can feel the creation of a small company coming on..... Then I can drive a company car (not privately owned). ;)

'wants to'

what process has been put in place for those that work in Bristol to get to and from the banned area if they own and drive a diesel?

macafee2

Put the plebs on night shift. :}

Shanks pony.

Taxis and vans will pay a daily charge of £9 and buses and HGVs £100.
So things will cost more for those that still visit.
Perhaps the project should be renamed "How to kill your city centre"

Heaven knows what that will do to the price of bus fares! :eek:


There is no rhyme or reason to these CAZ's! some are targetting cars & some aren't:shrug:
Reading the 'Fleetnews' it says The Government has also named 23 local authorities where it expects pollution levels to reach illegal levels by 2021. Stating they must all carry out a feasibility study to determine whether or not a Clean Air Zone is required.


Also Up to 10 local authorities could be planning to introduce workplace charging levies, which could cost employees up to £1,000 per year to park at work.:eek:
Edinburgh and Glasgow councils are expected go ahead with the charge soon while Reading, Oxford, Bristol, Cambridge and the London boroughs of Merton, Brent and Camden are still considering the proposals.

I can feel the creation of a small company coming on..... Then I can drive a company car (not privately owned).

Oddly enough I’ve just set a Ltd company. So I sell my diesel Peugeot to the company and get exemption from the diesel ban as it’s no longer privately owned?

I hope the company name is '4qbristol' so they read it everytime the vehicle drives into the forbidden zone.

It's a s***hole anyway, I try to avoid Bristol like the plague.

Nice swear filter avoidance :eek:

I'm surprised it never picked it up oops

I've never been to Bristol. Don't suppose I will ever want to. Certainly now they demonise my lovely CDTI...NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD- 'em. :mad:

Certainly would NOT wish to pay the tax on a "company car." Gave that up over 10 years ago!

The council voted on it last night & gave the go ahead to ban diesels. :eek: https://airqualitynews.com/2019/11/0...l-ban-and-caz/

Thanks Ian for the latest. We have a place on the outskirts of Bristol and sometimes I have to drive into the centre of the city. Unlike a couple of the posters in this thread, I would not describe it as a sh hole or animal farm to live in. I ask if this scheme will spread across the UK?

I’m not getting this at all. Millions of diesel owners are being told “you are not welcome in Bristol.”
We are now going to hold you all to ransom until you buy a “clean” petrol car. Can I afford a new car? No.
Is my recently purchased 2013 diesel car now worthless?
Do I now write to Bristol city council and begin a claim for compensation on the purchase price?
I will certainly write to explain we will no longer be taking our grandchildren there for a weekend break again.
Perhaps I should now keep my “clean” V6 LPG 75 that is currently up for sale?
At least I can drive into Bristol.😂

:DAnd it means nothing until the government pass legislation to make it legal ;)

Yes all local council authorities in the UK where there is congestion & pollution have been mandated by the government to implement these things whether it's outright diesel bans, CAZ, ULEZ's, or HGV,Taxi,Buses charged to enter to get them to change to electric transport.
Most of them are going through feasibility studies as we speak.

It will roll out across all cities before long, it’s just another stealthy way to remove diesel cars and force joe public into buying electric.

I wish folk would wake up and realise what is going on, all diesel owners should converge on Bristol and park up gridlocking the city, protest like the French do!

All that will happen is it will move pollution from the city centre to the surrounding areas, as drivers find side roads to travel along.

Because I'm a biker I've joined in three of the bikers manifestations, as they are called, over here to protest about half baked government ideas.

Tens of thousands of bikers are involved right across the country in all the big towns.

In every case the government has backed down and shelved their plans.

The brits seem to just roll over and play dead as the government steam rollers their way over them.




PS. The bikers action in France not only achieves the desired result but is a bit of fun too on the side. Lol.


Never been through so many red traffic lights or ridden so far down the wrong side of the road.

Parked in the middle of thousands of other bikers in the middle of the main road, at traffic lights and shopping centres.---Cheered on by all the car drivers who have been held up by all the bikers.--Incredible.

I can think of to me something funny as a reply but may not go down too well. I got it from my son at a Coldplay concert in Paris in 2017

macafee2

C'mon Ian. Give us a clue.---You can't leave us dangling.--( Perhaps a toned down version ?? )---:D



Otherwise it's this lot below outside your front door.---:eek::eek::eek:

all the more reason to shop on line

LOL It's only taxpayers money, you couldn't make it up! https://www.transport-network.co.uk/...uisition/16329

Amazing :eek:

Yeah it was only last week they put this out. :eek: https://www.transport-network.co.uk/...ollution/16296

Yip
 

Yip you couldn't make it up. Do they not realise how utterly ridiculous that sounds.
Chris

Reminiscent of this old Monty Python clip...https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/001ee2e...6-d2498122ab31

It's been cut short, - he then looks down and is shocked when he realises he is standing in water.

I can look out of my front window and see two diesel Bristol City Council vans, one brand new this year. A case of ‘do as I say, not as I do! :icon_redface:

This is back now as a petrol and diesel ban, for all vehicles not euro 6.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/e...lean-air-zone/

It is going to cost me and the Mrs £90 per week, two cars x 5 days x £9, or we get new cars.

When I lived in Bristol in the early eighties it was not unusual to have supplementary rate demands because the left wing council had no fiscal responsibility, and the white elephant of Portbury dock, a labour pipe dream cost every citizen dear.

I think this is certainly the thin end of a wedge...and that wedge will be shocking...I hate to say this folks but i suspect these steps are not taken for us.... most likely 'emissions' is just a convenient excuse...they will be part of a plan for a future generation....one that is already becoming accustomed to shopping from home.
I think that it will be part of the new landscape...a future 'internet of things' landscape that will likely be pretty alien to us...think back to a time when streets were tree lined avenues? Didnt Sheffield see their trees disappear pretty abruptly recently?...remember the protests and the widespread media campaign...made no difference...same with trees by railway lines...

.simply not being able to drive thru a city is not a big deal to me reallly...i park on the outskirts of norwich when i visit and it has good park and ride or park a little closer in one of the car parks and walk in....simple.
Like i said its my opinion that massive change is coming....protest all you like i fear it will make little difference...someone somewhere has made their mind up i reckon.

This is the Davos agenda green revolution which make all of us poorer and the elite super rich.. the plan no cars after 2030 for all of us, they have infiltrated all the councils to start this... all singing from the same hymn sheets its all front and Davos is calling all the shots

I WANT A ROAD TAX REDUCTION IF THEY START KNOCKING OFF NO GO ZONES FOR MY CAR!!!!!! IM getting less for my money. This is also victimization and selected process on Diesel owners and what about brand new 70 plate diesels worth thousands of pounds just out of the show rooms, the council is taking the pee....BUT REMEMBER ITS NOT OUR COUNCILS.... THEY WORK FOR THE CABAL

Ah as I was told recently, it's emissions tax not road tax.

Utter garbage.

Then I say that about most climate change stuff. And when you point out the science of climate cycle they look at you with fear and panic.

Yes we can effect it, and do damage it from what we do, but when you look at the geological proof of the earth's 14000 year climate cycle of warming and cooling then it becomes very obvious we are in the heating up stage again.

Global warming and its associated nonsense. Humph. Over population you mean. Why are we bothering when China and other countries are just tearing on.

Its like turning up to help at an earthquake with a brush and pan

I see Bristol City Council have agreed it's final proposals for a CAZ & submitted them to government today.


The last proposal was going to be a class C CAZ which excluded cars but the city has decided to implement a Class D CAZ, which will require drivers of all older, non-compliant, vehicles to pay a daily fee to enter the zone. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/env...arges-for-cars

To some extent the clean air requirement situation could be likened to phasing out coal fires in cities and towns. The air will become cleaner (excepting the winds from China) year on year as more EV's are introduced. However, that process is still too slow for some. Also this is another means to raise revenue when VED taxation reduces if EV's are still exempt from it.

Kev

A bit off topic but HGV's came under new emission standards today in the LEZ, this short video shows how easy it is to confuse it with the ULEZ, Nightmare for these drivers.:eek:

This will cost my family £90 + per week, or we buy two new cars.

Wife’s route to work goes straight through the zone, or she goes round and moves the alleged pollution to another Bristol area.

I take our youngest, who has special educational needs and medical needs, to school in the area and the children’s hospital in the zone.
He has extra curricular activities at the weekend too so that’s another £18.

£108 per week.

When you see figures like this it becomes scary and even more so when they are likely to raise the daily charge to top up the coffers after spending it on wasteful projects/friends. A girlfriend of mine live in Ebury House in Ebury Sq., alongside Victoria Coach Station. The council "approved" a residents permit zone in the mid 80's at £25 per annum. You have to be a millionaire, disabled or be a good forger to have the means to obtain one to-day. A nice little earner as Mr. Daly would say.

I wonder if the charge will go down when air quality improves due to EV traffic being in the high majority? :}

Kev

And they wonder why no-one can afford to live in town!!!

Father in Law lives in a RPZ.
He gets 100 tickets per year, but has to buy the rest.

Having started to look into this further, the council’s own studies into the current traffic show that 71% of the vehicles entering the zone meet the standards and wouldn’t pay. So the improvement in air quality will come from 29% of vehicles. They want to improve NOx.
A euro 3, KV6 will have to pay, but a euro 6 diesel won’t.
Which emits the most NOx?
http://www.eea.europa.eu/publication...port-emissions
The EU says the Euro 6 diesel.

My Borough Council (Wellingborough) has just spent £5m on a refurbishment of its Multi Storey Carpark and increased its capacity by 200 spaces. In addition, parking is free throughout the Borough including this car park, so what happens - the Authority is being abolished on 31st March to be absorbed into a new Unitary Council which nobody voted for! Progress indeed, but you are all still welcome to visit Wellingborough. There is even a surface car park with 450 spaces which is hardly used on a Sunday - NanoMeet??

I am also in Wellingborough and don't understand why they increased the spaces in the multi-storey as since the day it was opened the open air top floor has never been used and closed off.

I asked my dad if this would affect him. Apparently part of the zone is in his current route to work. Rather than pay the charge he will just drive around it, driving further, so more pollution, and polluting a different area. Or in the summer he can ride his bikes to work through the emissions zone.

He’s nearly 63, so should be retiring in a few years anyway, he’s not going to go out and buy a new car to get to work.

Lots of people are planning to do that. I wonder what the increase in traffic across the suspension bridge will be.

We can’t avoid it.

£108 per week.

Everything is labelled 'unprecedented' these days, it is a great way to justify any decision made by those who are in a position to make these decisions, and by those who are in no position to do anything about these decisions.

Are they going to ban buses, emergency vehicles, delivery vehicles etc.
I myself think that exhaust emissions are responsible for serious health problems and I can follow the logic behind the ban, however it may well have the effect of further putting the final nails into the coffin that most city centres have become, time will tell, after all we are living in unprecedented times, I am not sure what that really means?.

Well, with 3,750 new houses on Stanton Cross and 4,000 on Glenvale Park I suspect it was forward planning!

Truck manufacturers are running around like headless chickens at present as HGV's/Delivery vehicles are going to come under the same emission standards as ICE cars from 2025 & are legally bound to reduce emissions by 25% in 2025 & a further 30% by 2030 :eek: I wonder how much the cost of goods will go up. https://www.hgvuk.com/agreement-on-c...s-cut-on-hgvs/

That new roundabout on the road between Wellingborough and Finedon caught me out a couple of nights ago, not been that way for ages and suddenly came across a big roundabout on what used to be quite a nice stretch of road!

Thats a lot per week! He seems to think he can go as far as Lawrence Hill, then over to Cotham, and drop down in to Clifton, but he's not sure. The permit parking already winds him up at work, has to pay for a permit, but still struggles to find anywhere nearby to park! Do you still have to pay for the suspension bridge? I've not been into Bristol for almost 10 years now.

I would suspect that you still have to pay to go over the bridge, it only seems to be Scotland that’s removing bridge tolls.

Yes £1 each way.

I read yesterday that the old Runcorn-Widnes bridge has just reopened after three years maintenance & that's now a toll bridge like the new one :eek: You'll need to register if you're going that way.:mad:

You were lucky you only found it then - the road has been closed (for 2 days they said) since mid December!

A Cat D CAZ would be bad news if it’s granted as both my petrol K-Series MG-R’s would attract a charge (checked against the similar Birmingham CAZ). :target:

For my family it would be an occasional inconvenience as we live and work out of the proposed CAZ, as go into Bristol for shopping, recreation or access to transport hubs. It would probably result in us keeping away or buying another newer car. We have 2 cars with 4, sometimes 5, qualified drivers in the house.

Bad luck, you have my sympathy. :(

Just been reading about a probable reason why the government have told local authorities to implement a class D CAZ!, Clientearth have got on their case again & threatened court action :panic: https://airqualitynews.com/2021/03/0...pollution-law/

I would imagine most of the EU countries have exceeded the limits. It’s just that the UK beats itself up about these things, :panic:

whereas others just shrug and ignore. :shrug:

Exactly! Nox is a bigger killer and certainly the top dog where other lung related medical issues are concerned such as asthma.

When diesels became a bigger seller than petrol one would have thought the pendulem would have swung away from petrol. However, because of the Kyoto (and later) agreements, I guess they still feel the need for a CO2 deduction approach. But as you point out in your quoted percentages they won't be very successful environmentally but the ££££'s will still roll in.:devil:

Kev

Probably have water ingress issues when it rains?

Kev

It means "we are living in unprecedented times" ergo push through unwarranted, insane or unpopular projects that provide a fast buck for certain "elites".

Kev

Oxford have provisionally given the Green light for a ZEZ (Zero Emission Zone) :eek: Vehicles not meeting the required emission standards of Euro 4 petrol & Euro 6 diesel will have to pay £10/day. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/lat...ched-in-august





Blimey! Peugeot now want to go Combustion-Free by 2023 now. https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/12...-free-by-2023/

i assume these councillors all realize all there fresh food, delivery goods for shops in the city, public works machinery etc all use diesel!!
The councillors are not going to know what hit them when they cant get there tax payer funded lunches anymore!
Just get involved in local politics and vote them out- easy fixed

Councillors only play a small part in things and, yes, you can vote them out. However, you can't vote out the non-elected (by vote of the local people) executive and cronies. These are the ones that make policy and see off any "elected" councillor as they could be in situ for 35 years.

Kev

i read an interesting article the other day regarding the worlds lithium supplies.
It was estimated by the US geological survey body that we have enough lithium present world wide for 350 years- at the present rate of consumption.
however if we suppose current vehicle production was achieved for ev cars -known lithium supplies would only last 17 years!!
And the govt’s of the world are pinning there emissions targets on this technology???!!!!

Do you have a link?

Think it was openly available on Wikipedia.
Was as a result of somone asking the question re Lithium resources worldwide.

Cool thanks.
I was wondering as Lithium mining isn’t exactly ‘green’ and I was wondering how the greens rationalise that.

If you are a single issue advocate, you don’t have to worry about other stuff. Just keep on banging on about your chosen issue and leave the difficult choices of balance to others. :shrug:

Looks like the UK government are going to be dragged through the courts by clientearth for missing 4 of 5 legally binding emission targets. :eek:
I wouldn't be surprised if all the upcoming CAZ's will be class D in future if they are to reduce emissions even more. :eek: https://airqualitynews.com/2021/03/1...ution-targets/

Oh Heck! I hope Mancunian's have got their bike chains oiled ! :eek: Speak of the devil! I read about Manchester wanting to implement a ZEZ (zero emission zone) back in 2019 but the pandemic put it all on the back burner like other local authorities CAZ's.
We will know if this ZEZ is implemented at the end of this month. :panic:


"The strategy outlines plans to make Manchester a ‘well-connected and zero-carbon city.’ The central aim is for 90% of all trips to the city centre in the morning peak to be made on foot, by cycle or on public transport before 2040." https://airqualitynews.com/2021/03/17/m ... -strategy/

It looks like the Bristol CAZ is going to happen, so the ZTT will be up for sale after the summer.
We can’t afford £9 a day to drive it.
Mrs can’t afford £9 a day to go to work, so her car will go too.

Where did you see the confirmation?

Assuming this scheme goes ahead, that you pay your council tax to Bristol City Council, and that its by direct debit, cancel this arrangement and pay monthly by cheque. What's more, make it clear why you are taking such action, and that you will publicly encourage others to do the same. Cheques cause more work and expense. Councils hate them. You could also them that you will no longer accept E-Mail's from them and insist that all future correspondence is to be by letter only.

On the subject of DD's, some over 75's who are upset by the withdrawal of their free TV licenses have cancelled their DD's, and, by changing to cheque payment, have caused TV Licensing god knows how much extra work and expense. I read somewhere that they were planning to take on extra staff to deal with all those extra cheques.

As far as I've read it's still not been confirmed by government & is still penned in to start in Oct 21.


Even Matchbox are going emissions free now :eek: https://todaynewspost.com/auto-news/...green-by-2030/

Lpg
 

The Ultra low emission scheme due in London in October 2021 still bans (or charges) LPG cars if their original emission levels burning petrol are above the threshold. Where is the logic in this? Is this a n emissions issue or a revenue raising exercise? What is the position of other cities on LPG cars?

Cheques
 

Paying by cheque is ridiculous and encouraging others to do do is silly and small minded. If the council or BBC have extra costs because they have to bank cheques it will simply mean they have to raise their charges and the sensible ones will have to pay. You will be suggesting next that we all go down to the council offices and pay in bags of 1p coins.
Rovers drivers have the reputation of being dithery old men in the mould of Victor Meldrew. You certainly enhance this reputation, I certainly do not.
Thank god iI have an MG!

Emission charges
 

I am thinking of upgrading my ZT-T to maybe a Rover 2000 TC auto or a 3500.
Exempt from MOT, tax, emission charges, half price Insurance and will go up in value I guess there is a good Rover 2000 owners club.

Sadly I think all these schemes are just an excuse to raise revenue, they are unlikely to use any of this cash to make a difference.

Oxford is talking about introducing a scheme for polluting vehicles, my van will get charged but luckily I only visit the city once a week so I will just pay the charge as this will cost me less than a new van. A friend who visits Bristol a couple of times a week has the same attitude and he is just going to pass the charges on to his customers.

Pushing the traffic to outskirts shopping centres and turning town centres into ghost towns full of charity and betting shops. The councils may have a rethink once they see their revenue stream disappear.

Local election stuff.

All parties are saying it’s a done deal.

I live in Bristol, so I asked the question of all the doorstep persons that have been round.

All the parties in the local elections are saying it is a done deal.

As mentioned, its a “done deal “ until the city centres have empty shops because they have no customers, no more revenue for the council,people will just go to where it is easy to get to without paying extra money.
Happened over here with some local councils thinking they could make more money slapping extra parking fees in the city centre. People just went else where then the shops started shutting down and the council then still runs around trying to figure out what went wrong, blaming everything but their stupid ideas.
I understand their ideological push for cleaner air but they are making the public pay for it, not them, they still receive their weekly tax payer funded wages unlike the many businesses owners their desicions will impact.

The logic is simple - if run on petrol they pollute excessively and there isn't any way the authorities can ensure they run on gas when in the ULEZ.

Its all irrelevant when you compare what India / China and the Usa pump out of their power stations weekly, its just an excuse for the motorist to bolster the coffers of the local council.

I had to laugh, read an article about the spat the US and China are having as the US is trying to get china (worlds biggest polluter) to stop building more coal fired power stations citing that the US is now reducing its emissions (23 percent) and china is responsible for about 40 percent of pollution and chinas reply was that
as the US had been the biggest polluter over previous years , it wasnt fair that china had to now comply- i think there missing the big picture,china cant see the wood for the trees- literally!!

It was recently announced that China’s economy has grown 18%, you could probably fit the whole of the UK economy into that figure. Can you imagine the energy used from just that 18%? Basically here in the west we can’t get enough of them. On one hand we wring our hands and spout about saving the planet and on the other click buy Amazon :duh:

Surely it is not just LPG but also Hybrid under the scope on this issue.

One could drive on the electric motors/battery whilst in the zone(s) but use the petrol engine (or diesel) driving to the zone(s). However, how does the camera know which mode one is in? As for LPG, the govt. only gave a £10 VED reduction initially (I haven't checked to see if that is still the case. LPG should, in my opinion, be on par with electric or worst case between electric and petrol charges!

Kev

They're also proposing a upheaval in car insurance & road user charging too.


"Baroness Brown responded: ‘[Road user charging] is something we were keen on back in the King Review (2007). We were very keen to propose replacing taxes associated with driving with a time, distance, place, emissions, occupancy [charge] – whatever you like now because we can so easily monitor these things. It could be an enormously fair way to treat people. ‘It seems to me that you can have a system that takes emissions into account and that would be fairer to everyone. We are now seeing the insurance companies looking at having this system for charging you based on how and where and when you drive. So this kind of monitoring is coming. At the time of the King review, people were shocked by the idea of the intrusion in privacy, but I think we have moved an awful long way to thinking some of these ideas might be acceptable."



https://www.transport-network.co.uk/...own-says/17257

Unfortunately that's because the general public are I'm afraid, collectively rather dim witted. As the charges go up and the poor become more and more restricted in their ability to afford to travel some will realise what's happening to their freedom of movement.



Restrictions to freedom enforced by gov't charging are never acceptable.

Mike
I agree with your summation but there must be a way around this ban on LPG conversions. Maybe a fee plus a huge fine for not adhering to LPG use only. It is far more green for me to convert my car to LPG than buy a new car that has created huge pollution just in manufacturing it. Politicians must be trained to think outside the box but this I fear would be an impossible task. Clubs like this one must lobby decision makers to allow LPG. I suspect many owners of classic marques would go down this route to keep their cars as daily drivers.
A petition may work.

were well and truly in the path of big brother!
In china, there are so many surveillance cameras there that the govt can identify a person walking using facial recognition with 7 minutes and can track who you associate with.
Govts all over the place are trying to grapple with losing traditional methods of taxing road users ie road taxes via fuel levies etc as this non fossil fuel future has thrown them a curve ball.
Firstly they will gradually increase diesel tax and eventually make it not worth keeping a diesel car, then it will be anyone with a regular petrol driven car.
We will be subtlety guided to their view of the world, much as the banks are doing here, shutting branches and getting rid of auto teller machines in the name of “stream lining online services” when they are actually discarding seniors
and others who dont even have a mobile or a computer and rely on people at branches. Why - it saves them employing people and thus millions of dollars!!
Dont worry, there is alot more coming yet.
Alot of younsters over here now dont even own cars or have a licence anymore, they just uber from place to place as its cheaper than owning a car.

MGR did offer a factory fit LPG version but, probably due to lack of demand,
stopped production after about 12 months or so. If govt. had offered better VED rates for LPG then they did it might have had more success!

Kev

You're not far wrong, In 2030 they'll be banning ICE vehicles with a paltry 80g/km, my Rover 2.5 V6 has emissions of 268g/km :eek: I can see them raising the price of petrol/diesel to dissuade ICE vehicle usage & raise grants higher for zero emission vehicles :eek:
You can just see what's coming with this insurance malarkey!......So you want to travel into town in a 2 ton car single occupancy between the hours of 7am & 7pm! Ooooo that's going to cost you mate :eek:

As for banks :mad: I've just been through that scenario, My local bricks & mortar bank has closed for online services & I needed to download their banking app, Nope my older mobile phone is not compatible with their banking app & I need to upgrade to a newer phone with newer OS, I bought a new mobile phone with the relevant OS & my perfectly good phone is now rendered useless as I have no need for two phones :devil:

We have had the most camera2population installations in the UK then even China
I've always thought petrol the diesel here in the UK. As they tax petrol more in VED bands than diesels. My work colleague has an Audi 1.8 (VAG) and pays £30 (thirty sterling) every year since getting the car in 2012 (late 2010 car - 60 plate). My VED on a petrol has risen from £160 to well over £250 over the same period.
Wow, and I thought it was only UK banks being over zealous in this. They say an electronic transaction costs them 20p per transaction. What they don't tell their clients is the number of times their IT systems are hacked and money is stolen. At the moment they pay it back (if enough pressure is brought to bear). Might change if the hacked amount is no longer able to be paid back due to the number of victims claiming!
Kev

regarding fraudulent losses by banking institutions, in a previous life i had cause to be involved with law enforcement in this area.
I remember speaking with the head of a particular bank and asked the question,
regarding why they were doing “token”efforts at recovering millions of dollars in fraudulent transactions.His reply was it was in effect cheaper to write the losses off as tax write offs and consumer the pays in the end and that until those losses started to become financially worth chasing, they wouldn’t go hard at it.

LPG data
 

[QUOTE=torque2me;2877403]MGR did offer a factory fit LPG version but, probably due to lack of demand,
stopped production after about 12 months or so. If govt. had offered better VED rates for LPG then they did it might have had more success!

If Rover offered an LPG version then they must have produced an emissions data sheet for it. Where can I get hold of that data sheet? TFL will only accept data from build not from conversion.

But...
 

I live in Wigan, we pay a portion of our Council tax to the GMPTE, (Greater Manchester passenger transport executive) who allocate funding for passenger transport each year. The reality is that each year the new buses registered end up in Manchester and, they send the half a million mile buses they have to our areas, we get the stinking wrecks they've used and they get the new ones to help clean up their air quality, I'm sick of seeing ten year old buses suddenly appear on our roads belching out particulates.

I should imagine most towns & cities will be fast tracked to CAZ's now! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56807520

It’s not the cars or the Diesel that is at fault and causing the emissions.
It is the additives they put in the fuel that is the problem.
In the past Diesel partials were large and didn’t rise much higher than knee height at best, which is why the exhaust tail pipes were always pointing down to the ground. The only way of absorbing the particles was by breathing them in if you were unlucky enough to have the wind blow them up high enough.
Now the particles, thanks to the additives, are so small they float on the air and rise high up. They are also not only breathed in by more people but because of the size of them now, they’re absorbed through the skin.
Still diesel emissions are still far less harmful than unleaded fuel but as people still see diesels as black smoke machines, there the bad ones.

Sadly this isn't happening only in the UK. On mainland europe, these schemes are being introduced everywhere...

Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent, Amsterdam, Paris, barcelona, madrid, cities in italy and cities in germany all have these schemes.

U basically cannot drive the CDT/CDTI in the first 4 cities because they register everything with camera's. In the other cities u have to use stickers so u can still get away with it.

Rotterdam used to have a low emission zone as well, but they got rid of it because it didn't really have much of an impact because of the open space the city has between buildings, the particles don't seem to get stuck unlike in more congested cities with tight streets (they call them street canyons)

Sadly they're getting rid of diesels everywhere with higher taxes and by introduction of these zones... Even if u have a euro 4 diesel u can pay an extra tax of 365 euro per year to enter Antwerp & Ghent (365 euro per city so basically 730 euro!!!!)

It's sad really, because these cars are built to last (with proper maintenance of course) a CDT can go for 700.000 km's easily yet we have to get rid of it at 200.000 km's because of politics ...

it is what it is I guess

Birmingham city council has launched a vehicle scrappage and travel credit scheme ahead of the CAZ opening on June 1st. https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fle...cheme-launched

And, realistically, what use is £2000 towards the cost of a new car when you're on £30K or less to start with?

I, for one, will sit back and watch the City Centre die through lack of people visiting it. I wonder how long it'll be before the shops, restaurants, theatres, music venues etc. start shouting?

Interesting that the scrappage voucher will only be accepted by ONE dealership in Birmingham.
So much for price competition. :shrug:

It will be interesting to see the effects on services in inner city Bristol, my son’s boss will be adding £9 per person per day on all contracts within the zone to the customers.

2025 will be the day the emissions brown stuff really hits the fan:eek:


I've been reading that the COO of Nissan has finally said it will be cheaper for car manufacturers to make BEV's than to make ICE vehicles that have to comply with Euro 7. :eek:


"Even the very latest iteration Euro 6d is so strict that even petrol-burning cars require a particulate filter to be fitted in Europe, and the Euro 7 standard (expected to go into effect around 2025 - 2026) will be even more stringent." :eek:
https://insideevs.com/news/506960/ni...-euro7-ice-ev/

Over here, In 2025 Euro 5 diesels will be banned as well. Euro 6 in 2027.

Really there's no point in buying a diesel now if u live here in belgium unless you're going to drive 25.000-30.000 km every year, only then it's worth it

WoW! that's happening pretty quick there :eek: I see the EU bloc is planning to extend the carbon market to include road transport in July 2021 which will mean higher prices at the pumps as refineries will want to act fast to decarbonise fuel or pay lots of €uros for carbon credits . https://www.euractiv.com/section/tra...ort-buildings/

Singapore are offering incentives to older vehicle owners to de-register (scrap) them.
I have a mate in Singapore with some really nice cars.
He is going to bring them over here and sell them.

How long before older cars are not economically viable?
And their value drops dramatically?

Singapore will stop registering diesel cars from 2025 too. :eek: https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/08...ars-from-2025/

I had a prospective mayor on my doorstep a couple of weeks ago. A scrappage scheme was his suggestion to my unhappiness about the ULEZ. The trouble is, that's aimed at people who aspire to a new car. I don't. I like to drive something different, be able to fix it myself and have minimum depreciation.

The scrappage scheme would probably be something like £3k trade-in for your old car. You'd probably need something like 25K+ for a new 75 equivalent. You'd lose more value than the 3k grant as soon as you drove it out of the showroom!

I was in Birmingham the other day with work and noticed as I was driving toward the centre there were signs about clean air zones and paying a fee. I checked when I got home and from what I could tell it doesn't start till June but it seems to be cropping up all over the place. The assault on diesel is worrying me - I always wanted the 2.5 V6 on LPG but would it make any difference in the long term??

Unless you live or travel into in one of these clean air zones on a daily basis buying a vehicle that complies will not save you much if any money.

Personally we visit a city about once a month and even if all cities start having clean air zones it will still be cheaper to drive our ''old polluting vehicle''.

With the depreciation and higher running costs of new cars it just not add up financially.

Are you talking about your ZT 270 here?

I heard yesterday that the Bristol ULEZ has been delayed around a year. No reference link etc. just what I heard. :hurray:

Interesting, I will do some research.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.b...ed-5601638.amp

The ZT-T survives another year.

My Mrs goes to work every day.
Our son goes to school in the zone.
He has hospital appointments in the zone.
It would have cost us £100 per week.

And I dare say it will cost upu nearly £400 a month to buy or lease a vehicle new that's exempt.

I noticed in passing on the Bristol site some "expert" said hundreds of people are dying ever day in because of pollution! with idiots like that on their side do they wonder if people scoff at their impending doom. A lot of experts for very many years told post puberty males that masturbation would make them go blind, well? Chris S.

I was reading about the upcoming Manchester CAZ the other day which doesn't come into effect until May 2022 as to give local hauliers/taxi/coach firms & van fleets time to upgrade their fleets to cleaner compliant vehicles.


Private cars are not being banned in the Manchester CAZ.


Van operators can now access up to £4,500 towards the replacement of a vehicle – £1,000 more than initially proposed – and Greater Manchester Hackney Cabs can get up to £10,000. HGVs can now get up to £12,000 towards replacement, nearly three times more than was initially offered, and coaches are now eligible for £32,000.


What I did find interesting was they've already made an extension to the CAZ before it even begins to incorporate the Trans-Pennine routes A426 Snake pass & A57 Woodhead Pass which will carry the same restrictions as the city centre for older non compliant vehicles which will have to go the long way round using the M62 :eek: https://airqualitynews.com/2021/07/0...nnine-traffic/

You can check your car here.

https://www.gov.uk/clean-air-zones

So, every business is going to get some dosh to update their fleet. I take it that the monies will not be from the councillors/urban authority? Do you think the government is, on the quiet, bunging these authorities? Often a Minister will say no they are not but in reality one of the Quango's is from something like a "save the planet" environmental fund. They were particular allowed/had to do so when it was EEC grant money.


Just thinking aloud as this allowance scheme for Manchester (?) could run into the millions. Suggest everyone with a van go and register it in Manchester and apply for the grant ;-)


Kev

Ah the wonders of democracy, and the morons elected to apply its principles.

I've not been shopping in Birmingham ever since I moved to Tipton. Being next to 2 Asdas, a Farmfoods and with Bilston market just down the road I see no reason to, which means I'll never be giving Birmingham City Council any diesel tax (they can call it what they like - it's still a tax).

As motorists, we pay our road fund licence and fuel duty - I therefore refuse to visit anywhere that imposes further charges, and have done so since day one. Mind you, towns and cities get the leaders they deserve - that's democracy.

It might sound like ‘democracy’ but, sadly, it ain’t the ideal we all think it is. By the people/for the people is the usual definition.

Just because the Council is elected by some of them, and that mostly means a minority of the residents, it accounts for about, as a rule, 30% of voters in local elections. It might lead to a majority in the council chamber on voting day, but that’s apathy by another name.

I wonder how many residents actually know the names of their councillors and where they live. Or how many of ‘their’ councillors are disproportionately anti or for anything at all. Quorum rules should be applied in such cases when a major shift is involved. Given the will and purpose, anything local can be passed.