A few (probably silly) questions

[bikerdude666]

Hi all, we've been looking at getting a caravan recently, and today went out to view some. We went out to look at an Elddis firestorm 500, 2003, weighing 1300kg's, for £5295, but it had obviously been well used, and it left us wondering what work would need doing to it soon, aside form the money we could see it would need instantly. So we carried on looking around, and found 1 we all really liked (including the kids), it's a Vanlander 556, 2010, for £10,895. Really nice, clean, looks almost unused, pretty sure it had a motor mover thing fitted, triple bunk beds, 2 dining areas, comes with a brand new porch type awning, as well as gas bottle, battery, water and waste bottles, hook up cables and a step.

Now my concern with this is, it's MIRO is 1332kg's, and the MTPLM is 1545kg's.

Now a silly question, from what I can see, the towing weight of the ZT is 1600kg's, is this figure affected by weight in the car ie. number of passengers, amount of luggage?

2nd is am I able to tow it? From what I can see, a B license allows me to tow a caravan, as long as the weight is not greater than the tow vehicle, and as long as the combination of car and caravan is no more than 3500kg's. Now I've had a look, and the ZT CDTi apparently weighs 1535kg's. So with regards to the license, would it be 1535 + the MIRO (1332kg's), and in which case would be legal. Or would it be 1535 + MTPLM (1545kg's) and so, annoyingly, by 10kg's, be illegal?

I'm sure I had other questions, so may add to this later.

Thanks.

Just been re-reading it on the .gov site, and I can't actually see anywhere where it says that the trailer has to weigh less than the towing vehicle, but I was sure that was what I'd read previously? Does anyone know?

[RPWC]

The weight of the trailer cannot exceed the weight of the towing vehicle, and the gross train weight, i.e. Towing vehicle and trailer, must not exceed 3500kg, if you don't have B+E licence.So with this caravan you are going to be to very close, and likely over the limit.
TBH, I wouldn't recommend going for this unless you are considering getting a car with bigger towing capacity. By the time you get the family and luggage in the car and van, you could be driving unsafe. Are you experienced at towing?

[HarryM1BYT]

Those caravan's sound awfully expensive to me for their ages Seems you might be looking at dealers, try private sales if you are confident.

I paid £2000 for my Bailey, a 2004 five years ago, when the book price was then was £7000. It is top of the range, but was an insurance write off - there was some o/s damage to the skin. An easy repair, if not too bothered about cosmetics. Inside was absolutely immaculate/ as new. I spent around £300 on repairs, since when it has served us for three holidays a year without any issues. We are away in it now.

If you are DIY useful, there are specialists around the country, selling insurance write off caravans, some needing only minor work to put them back to use. Some only have cosmetic damage, like hail stone dents on the roof.

[bikerdude666]

Originally Posted by RPWC

The weight of the trailer cannot exceed the weight of the towing vehicle, and the gross train weight, i.e. Towing vehicle and trailer, must not exceed 3500kg, if you don't have B+E licence.So with this caravan you are going to be to very close, and likely over the limit.
TBH, I wouldn't recommend going for this unless you are considering getting a car with bigger towing capacity. By the time you get the family and luggage in the car and van, you could be driving unsafe. Are you experienced at towing?

Thanks, I thought I'd read the trailer had to weigh less than the car, but it doesn't mention that on the .gov site. So it'll be down to which figure they use then. It's not an ideal starter van I know, but the only 1's we like that are big enough are similar weight.

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

Those caravan's sound awfully expensive to me for their ages Seems you might be looking at dealers, try private sales if you are confident.

I paid £2000 for my Bailey, a 2004 five years ago, when the book price was then was £7000. It is top of the range, but was an insurance write off - there was some o/s damage to the skin. An easy repair, if not too bothered about cosmetics. Inside was absolutely immaculate/ as new. I spent around £300 on repairs, since when it has served us for three holidays a year without any issues. We are away in it now.

If you are DIY useful, there are specialists around the country, selling insurance write off caravans, some needing only minor work to put them back to use. Some only have cosmetic damage, like hail stone dents on the roof.

Thanks, it is pricey, but it is from a dealer and so comes with a warranty and some peace of mind. The doing work on it is what put us off the other 1, so not really interested in an insurance write off, I'd rather pay extra for 1 that's all ready to use. Thanks.

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by bikerdude666

Thanks, it is pricey, but it is from a dealer and so comes with a warranty and some peace of mind. The doing work on it is what put us off the other 1, so not really interested in an insurance write off, I'd rather pay extra for 1 that's all ready to use. Thanks.

My experience of the only time I bought from a dealer, was that the warranty was worse than worthless. When buying, I was told it had been thoroughly checked for damp, fully serviced and valeted. In fact the entire front end was completely rotten, the service was one of torquing up the wheel studs and the valet a quick wipe over with a wet rag inside. Electrics were dangerous, gas system dangerous and it was unfit to tow despite looking OK.

I hadn't checked it over, I relied on the their warranty and suggestion that there was no damp and paid up on the spot, much more than I paid for this one. I took it back and they didn't want anything to do with it, or a refund. T&S just said SH caravans can expect to have faults. Then they eventually agreed to take a look and had me tow it all the way to Hull, where I was just ignored by staff for hours. It ended with me putting a not in the window and leaving it completely blocking their access drive and locking it up there. Our holiday was in tatters.

Then they rang and agreed to talk, they agreed to repair the rotten front end. I had enough and despite the rot being widespread agreed to just that repair.

I had thought I was safe buying from a well known and large dealership with a warranty, but never, ever would I buy from a dealer again.

[bikerdude666]

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

My experience of the only time I bought from a dealer, was that the warranty was worse than worthless. When buying, I was told it had been thoroughly checked for damp, fully serviced and valeted. In fact the entire front end was completely rotten, the service was one of torquing up the wheel studs and the valet a quick wipe over with a wet rag inside. Electrics were dangerous, gas system dangerous and it was unfit to tow despite looking OK.

I hadn't checked it over, I relied on the their warranty and suggestion that there was no damp and paid up on the spot, much more than I paid for this one. I took it back and they didn't want anything to do with it, or a refund. T&S just said SH caravans can expect to have faults. Then they eventually agreed to take a look and had me tow it all the way to Hull, where I was just ignored by staff for hours. It ended with me putting a not in the window and leaving it completely blocking their access drive and locking it up there. Our holiday was in tatters.

Then they rang and agreed to talk, they agreed to repair the rotten front end. I had enough and despite the rot being widespread agreed to just that repair.

I had thought I was safe buying from a well known and large dealership with a warranty, but never, ever would I buy from a dealer again.

Obviously there's always the chance, but hopefully all will be well, her parents have used this place for years, and bought at least 4 caravans from there, and whenever theres been a problem they've apparently dealt with it quickly and without hassle.



I have thought of the other questions I was going to ask...

1: Towing mirrors, apparently they're not a legal requirement, but I quite like being able to see behind me, so are there a certain type/make that fit on the bullet style mirrors best?

2: I bought a 2nd hand (but brand new never fitted and still in its original packing) tow bar last month. The wiring that it's come with has a 7 pin socket, but on the caravan the plug has (I think) 14 pins, might've miscounted. Can this be sorted using some sort of adapter, or will I need to get a new socket and have that wired in to the car?

Picking up a caravan in 2 weeks so need to get this tow bar fitted ASAP now. Nothing quite like popping out on a Sunday afternoon for a casual browse, and then buying something you'd barely thought about before...


Ps. We ended up getting the van from the original post (advert still live here at the moment) As after talking about it Sunday night, and having a look on various websites, we found all the caravans that were big enough (5-6 berth) were all much the same weight, we weren't happy trusting our judgement with a private sale, and so stuck with traders. There were a couple slightly cheaper for what in the photos looked much the same, but much further away, so might've got there and found it to not be as good as hoped, and had a wasted 180 mile journey (problem with autotrader, seems to do distances as the crow flies, so it's great when you see an advert for something 50 miles away, then get directions and it turns out to be 90 miles!). And whilst we may be unlucky, but the dealer we're buying from does seem good, with good recommendations from many people we've spoken to, including the inlaws, grandparents, sister in law, and a few people at work.

As for dealing with the weight, the ZT is staying, that's my car, and I have no intention of selling it and getting something else. Plan for the moment is to take both cars on holidays, mine at the tow car, so minimal weight in the van, just me in the car. She'll take the kids in her Qashqai, and load the boot and roof box with all the luggage. Yes it'll cost more in fuel, and some sites charge for extra cars, but that's about the only way forward for us at the moment. Finding a car that's big enough for all of us + luggage, and has a towing capacity sufficiently better, that my wife would be willing to get rid of her Qashqai for, is unlikely. I wouldn't mind a Freelander (provided the ride in the newer 1's is better, Father-in-law had an '04 Freelander, and it used to make me sea sick on anything but a perfectly smooth road). But we both only hold a B license, so only able to tow up to a combined 3500kg's (incidentally, my wife phoned the DVLA and asked about the licenses, and according to who she spoke to, the tow vehicle doesn't have to weigh more than the caravan, as long as it's not something silly like a smart car, though I still don't quite believe it.)

In a few years I may look at doing the test for the extra weight, but only once I've been able to have a bit of a practise towing, and ideally if money allows, I'd pick up a cheap Freelander or similar and use that for holidays...

So, picking it up in 2 weeks, got storage sorted already, just, phoned Monday morning and they had 1 space left, went down and put a deposit on the caravan, went to the storage place Monday afternoon and the space had gone, luckily while there, someone phoned ot say they didn't want their space anymore so we had that. £300 for the 1st year, £275 after that, CaSSOA Gold Award site, 24hr monitored cctv, big perimeter fence and razor wire. Now need to sort out insurance for it, and buy all the stuff to go with it, got plates and pans and things today but still a few things we'll need.

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by bikerdude666

Just been re-reading it on the .gov site, and I can't actually see anywhere where it says that the trailer has to weigh less than the towing vehicle, but I was sure that was what I'd read previously? Does anyone know?

The dealer ought to have questioned you and given you advice..

Most advise that for an inexperienced person, they should not exceed 85% trailer weight, to 100% tow vehicle weight, simply for reasonable outfit stability. Tail wagging the dog (snaking whilst towing) is really, really scary.

Above weights are calculated as car minimum load, trailer fully loaded. You can improve stability by transferring heavier items to the car.

Remember - the basic accessories are NOT included as part of you caravans unladen weight. Your mover (100Kg), gas bottles (30Kg), water containers, hook up cable, are all part of the payload allowance, which also includes your bedding, chairs, food and clothes. The margins are not great and you will be surprised by what such things weigh.

Aside from the above, you need to worry about the practicality of your car's actual ability to tow a second vehicle close to its own weight and hill starts.

Nose weight, static weight on the tow ball is also critical. Use an accurate pair of bathroom scales to get this right, with the van level on level ground and a piece of timber between hitch scales, so it is the same height as the ball. All the weighty items need to be placed as low as possible and as close as possible, to the axle. Nothing in there like fluids, able to slop about.

[bikerdude666]

Thanks, withe the current plan, the caravan could be towed with almost nothing in it, just the battery and gas bottle, and maybe the awning, depending how long it is when packed. She'll have the kids and clothes, bedding, dinghy, buckets/spades etc in her car. I'll tow the caravan and be alone in the car, so can load the boot and interior up with the water containers, pots/pans plates etc to keep the caravan as light as possible. It should then be around 1450kg to tow. Might take it to work sometime as we've got a weigh bridge there so I could check it and see.

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by bikerdude666

Thanks, withe the current plan, the caravan could be towed with almost nothing in it, just the battery and gas bottle, and maybe the awning, depending how long it is when packed. She'll have the kids and clothes, bedding, dinghy, buckets/spades etc in her car. I'll tow the caravan and be alone in the car, so can load the boot and interior up with the water containers, pots/pans plates etc to keep the caravan as light as possible. It should then be around 1450kg to tow. Might take it to work sometime as we've got a weigh bridge there so I could check it and see.

It will not make any difference to the legalities, it remains a matter of the cars minimum weight and the trailers maximum weight, though it certainly will be a safer towing experience.

[RPWC]

Not to mention the strain on the clutch.!