Petition for reduced road tax for classic cars

[daveo138]

Originally Posted by SteveThackery

I'm discussing this because I think pollution is a good reason not to give older cars a tax discount. You see - on topic! Also, an opinion.

Which is the greater polluter...driving an old car, or manufacturing a replacement?

[bl52krz]

Obviously manufacturing another equivalent vehicle. A bit like the article I read today. A scientific research centre carried out an evidential test on electric vehicles on a test track, for miles per charge. Volvo UX 300C.....supposed mpcharge:- 273...... actual mpcharge:- 170. 37% less. Volkswagon ID7...... Supposed mpc:-383........actual 254 mpc.
Another one..... supposed mpc 331......actual....252. All cars were over £50,000. Bargain ain’t it. Exposing the fundamentals of EVs. Good ain’t it. One of the technical bods? Said he went to Scotland in his diesel, distance just around 700 miles. Did it without filling up. Said if he had gone in one of these EVs, instead of one days travel, it would have been a two day job because of having to ‘fill up’ at least twice in these environmentally friendly vehicles.
A friend has just started driving a new Electric Lorry. Will let you know how he gets on.

[SteveThackery]

Originally Posted by daveo138

Which is the greater polluter...driving an old car, or manufacturing a replacement?

Good question, and a moot point. It depends on what type of pollution you care about. Manufacturing pollutants are different from usage pollutants.

If you stick to CO2, again it seems almost impossible to get a clear picture because the estimates of how much CO2 is produced in making a car vary enormously. There are all sorts of issues around how far back along the supply chain you go, how to handle the apportionment of pollution when supply chains are shared (eg digging iron ore out of the ground, sharing a cargo ship), and so on.

Also, it depends on what types of car you are talking about. Driving a 25-year-old, 15mpg Bentley is a lot different from driving a 25-year-old Yaris in terms of their CO2 footprint. Trading in that Bentley for a Nissan Leaf is one thing, trading in the Yaris might be another thing altogether in terms of saving the planet.

The whole subject is so complicated it's almost impossible to know the truth. Personally I feel OK about keeping my Rover on the road. I can't know for sure, but my gut says it's better in terms of CO2 than buying a new car, whether it be ICE or electric.

[wraymond]

Pollution

I’m really not interested in the mixed enthusiasts’ damp dreams of saving the planet. That’s egotism max at best and hopelessly inadequate at least. A God complex. Try living within 30 miles of a power station – generating electricity to power all-night street lighting and so many other wasted advertising usages. Is that a vaunted benefit? For whom? Let they that emit all the spurious gases led by dogma do the other thing.

In my youth, power stations and factories, especially in the ‘industrial North’, all industry worked on coal or coke. The great god Diesel also gave us thick blankets of smog, no longer permitted, but in only some parts of the world. Man’s elevated view of himself as the creator and saviour of this planet displays a commercially-led God complex. This, favoured by the movers and shakers of industry where the latest scams are of yet another complex, is entirely Mammon.

This tiniest of countries produces infinitesimally small quantities of killer pollutants compared to the rest of the world and we should get a grip of ourselves.

[SteveThackery]

Originally Posted by wraymond

Pollution
This tiniest of countries produces infinitesimally small quantities of killer pollutants compared to the rest of the world and we should get a grip of ourselves.

In terms of CO2 the UK has - cumulatively from the beginning - contributed about 3% of the total CO2 emitted by humans. At the moment it is emitting just under 1% of the world's annual CO2 output (note that it has just under 1% of the world's population). So yes - nothing we do in the UK will make any detectable difference. Apparently, though, we can't expect other countries to reduce their CO2 output unless we do it, too. Personally I don't believe any country looks to the UK as an example to follow - we are irrelevant.

I'm not sure what you mean by "killer" pollutants, but if you are talking about CO, HC and NOx, then the total amount emitted doesn't matter because they all get destroyed in the upper atmosphere by ultraviolet light. What matters is the concentration at a local level, which is what all the emission control equipment on our cars is trying to address, as are (allegedly) the ULEZs, et al. Vehicle emission control systems do not, in themselves, reduce CO2 output. That is achieved by improving the thermal and mechanical efficiency of vehicles.

[daveo138]

ULEZ is yet another con.

According to the emperor of London, there are literally thousands of people dying from vehicle exhaust pollution. However, if you pay him £12.50 per day, it doesn't matter whether they die or not.

[torque2me]

Originally Posted by daveo138

ULEZ is yet another con.

According to the emperor of London, there are literally thousands of people dying from vehicle exhaust pollution. However, if you pay him £12.50 per day, it doesn't matter whether they die or not.

Spot on. Glasgow would be the better scheme. Maybe not enough money in that for Lord Khan though.
Kev

[Lancpudn]

I should imagine road pricing or PAYG road tax isn't far off. The London Assembly transport committee had a debate on this subject last Wednesday.


"Such a system, said the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, could abolish all existing road user charges – such as the congestion charge and the ultra-low emission zone (ULEZ) - and replace them with a scheme where drivers pay per mile, with different rates depending on how polluting vehicles are, the level of congestion in the area and access to public transport." https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/roa...-of-any-change

[wraymond]

I'll bet he did. What a wonderful way to empty a bank account. And precisely what improvements could residents inside the M25 hope for in exchange for the sacrifice of their freedoms? The roads throughout this land do not belong to grandstanding politicians. What next, gas masks? Is there anybody on the council with a backbone?

[SteveThackery]

Originally Posted by Lancpudn

I should imagine road pricing or PAYG road tax isn't far off. The London Assembly transport committee had a debate on this subject last Wednesday.


"Such a system, said the Mayor, Sadiq Khan, could abolish all existing road user charges – such as the congestion charge and the ultra-low emission zone (ULEZ) - and replace them with a scheme where drivers pay per mile, with different rates depending on how polluting vehicles are, the level of congestion in the area and access to public transport." https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/roa...-of-any-change

I'm trying to imagine how that would work. London roads are covered with cameras, but surely it wouldn't be realistic to cover all 262,300 miles of roads in the UK. Am I missing something obvious?

If it's CO2 we are concerned about, then loading all the tax onto fuel would be the way to go. That way everybody would pay for the CO2 they produce.

No good for local pollutants (HC, CO, NOx) though: Khan's approach would be better if you want to go that way.