towing weight (unbraked)

[Busboy]

Originally Posted by reworht

This fact sheet is a 4 page PDF file which can be downloaded free of charge from the Camping and Caravanning Club website. It's worth doing so and sitting in a corner whilst you read it - I reckon it's one of the better plain English documents

Will do lol

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by reworht

This fact sheet is a 4 page PDF file which can be downloaded free of charge from the Camping and Caravanning Club website. It's worth doing so and sitting in a corner whilst you read it - I reckon it's one of the better plain English documents

Thanks, that confirms all that I have attempted to explain.

There is one complication which it makes no mention of....

Caravans have a chassis and running gear, which will potentially have a higher load rating than the caravan as built and sold by the caravan's builder - they build on ready built chassis. Manufacturers will often specify the Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM) to be a lesser figure than the chassis suppliers figure, so that it can be legally towed by lower specified tow vehicle - it makes for better sales. The legalities of towing the vehicle, is based on the MTPLM, against the kerbweight of the tug.

For those needing to improve the payload ability of the caravan, it is usually possible to ask the manufacturer of the vehicle to re-plate the caravan's MTPLM up to the maximum of the chassis load rating. The big but - your tow vehicle then needs to legally be able to tow that newly rated MTPLM figure.

The legal situation so far as weight is concerned is - the maximum load that the caravan can legally be (MTPLM), versus the kerb-weight of the tow vehicle. The kerb-weight is the minimum weight a tow vehicle can possibly be in a situation where it is able to tow, all fluids and just the driver, otherwise empty.

[rovertone]

'For those needing to improve the payload ability of the caravan, it is usually possible to ask the manufacturer of the vehicle to re-plate the caravan's MTPLM up to the maximum of the chassis load rating. The big but - your tow vehicle then needs to legally be able to tow that newly rated MTPLM figure.'


This varies by manufacturer, in my case Coachman will only do this from new or within 12months of purchase. My van was 9 years old with MTPLM of 1420kg and Alko chassis rated at 1500kg. I argued that they were implying that the chassis derated as it aged but they (Coachman) wouldn't budge, not interested!

[Fox3]

I was under the impression if you have the +E entitlement, you can tow a larger (than the towing vehicle allows) MTPLM, providing you do not actually exceed the weight allowed by the car vin plate.

The example being, I tow a 2t tipping trailer empty, or with 1t on. The trailer weighs 500kg unloaded. so takes me right up to the limit of the car with 1t on.

I suppose what I'm saying, is re-plating to the chassis maximum shouldn't make much of a difference? Providing you have the +E entitlement and dont load right up to the chassis limit?

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by Fox3

I was under the impression if you have the +E entitlement, you can tow a larger (than the towing vehicle allows) MTPLM, providing you do not actually exceed the weight allowed by the car vin plate.

The example being, I tow a 2t tipping trailer empty, or with 1t on. The trailer weighs 500kg unloaded. so takes me right up to the limit of the car with 1t on.

I suppose what I'm saying, is re-plating to the chassis maximum shouldn't make much of a difference? Providing you have the +E entitlement and dont load right up to the chassis limit?

No matter what entitlements you have you are not allowed to tow more than the tow vehicle is rated tow, based on the MTPLM. the fact that the trailer is empty makes no difference, it is the MTPLM which matters.

You would be illegally towing that trailer with a 75, no matter whether it was empty, loaded with 1t or 2t.

As explained, the manufacturers of many caravans plated them with a reduced MTPLM (less than the chassis rating), simply to improve their saleability as suitable for lesser rated tow vehicles. I suppose if you find a way to have your tipping trailers MTPLM replated to the maximum the 75 could tow, that would then make it legal for you to tow that loaded to 500Kg.

If you think it is one thing the police would simply never pull you for, you are wrong. The recently had a purge on a motorway, checking tow vehicle capacities and caravan weights, plus the rest of the legalities. A large proportion were found to be overloaded, fined and were not allowed to proceed until corrected.

A couple or so years ago I became involved in a lengthy email discussion with the authorities about whether the MTPLM and whether or not the actual MTPLM might be able to be legally exceeded due to part of the trailer load being taken by the tow vehicle - the nose weight. They weigh vehicles separately by leaving them coupled up on the weighbridge, so the trailer will appear to be its actual weight, minus the noseweight.

So if the MTPLM is 1500Kg. The trailer loaded to 1600Kg and assuming the noseweight were 100Kg, when measured the trailer would therefore weigh a quite legal 1500Kg. They agreed they are not permitted to uncouple, they have no means to know the noseweight, they can only check the loads on each axle.

After numerous email exchanges with them, first of with them just failing to understand and being passed up the chain of command - I never managed to get an absolute definitive answer from them.

[Fox3]

Interesting point about the nose weight.

I cant find anything online regarding the B+E capacities, it simply states a 'trailer of any weight' when I look at my licence.

Reason I ask, my boss is of the understanding that once the B+E entitlement is gained the trailer plate becomes somewhat irrelevant, and the actual weight of the trailer and its load is taken into consideration?

[rovertone]

[QUOTE=HarryM1BYT;2590160]
So if the MTPLM is 1500Kg. The trailer loaded to 1600Kg and assuming the noseweight were 100Kg, when measured the trailer would therefore weigh a quite legal 1500Kg. They agreed they are not permitted to uncouple, they have no means to know the noseweight, they can only check the loads on each axle.

Interesting that as far as the car goes the handbook IIRC states that the noseweight on the tow bar can be additional to the max permitted rear axle load which sort of suggests that its the caravan axle which is carrying the noseweight.
It's complex, when I go into Europe I always try and ensure I keep within the MTPLM because the french police in particular are known to be very astute.

Seeing what comes out of some caravans the majority must be overweight both for the chassis and the car capacity and whilst you can run the risk of spot checks serious problems will arise if you are involved in an accident.

[topman]

Reading through this and understanding it (I think) it does look like it's an area that need simplify. its certainly not an easy area to understand.

[HarryM1BYT]

Originally Posted by rovertone

Interesting that as far as the car goes the handbook IIRC states that the noseweight on the tow bar can be additional to the max permitted rear axle load which sort of suggests that its the caravan axle which is carrying the noseweight.

It is obviously not the caravan's axle though, which carries the down force of the noseweight. I don't recall reading any mention of the car's rear axle not including this as a part of the car's load.

Remember - what ever noseweight you tow with, it will only be that weight when the vehicle is static, on the road that load on the rear can vary enormously. Which is why you get the end to end pitching. The Rover 75, for its class seems to be barely suffer any pitching, maybe due to its 'wheel at each corner design.

[rovertone]

Originally Posted by HarryM1BYT

It is obviously not the caravan's axle though, which carries the down force of the noseweight. I don't recall reading any mention of the car's rear axle not including this as a part of the car's load.

Remember - what ever noseweight you tow with, it will only be that weight when the vehicle is static, on the road that load on the rear can vary enormously. Which is why you get the end to end pitching. The Rover 75, for its class seems to be barely suffer any pitching, maybe due to its 'wheel at each corner design.

I've just looked up in the handbook technical data what it actually says and it gets even more confusing.

Firstly under 'Weights' it states 'When towing, the maximum laden weight can be increased by up to 100kg and the rear axle load can be increased by 15% provided road speed is limited to a maximum of 62mph.

Secondly under 'Towing weights' it states ' Maximum towing weights shown are to industry defined standard and represent the maximum weight that can be towed by the car allowing it to restart efficiently on 12% gradient....' Any extra weight such as baggage and/or passengers should be deducted from the maximum towing weight.

Maximum rear axle load with standard suspension is quoted as 1060kg so rear axle load can be increased by 159kg plus 100kg noseweight can increase GVW by 259kg. But point 2 says that for my CDTi Auto I would have to deduct the payload from the 1600kg towing capacity, so in essence with passengers and luggage the cars towing capacity is significantly less.

I only offer these quotes for general interest on the topic and heaven knows how officialdom would interpret it.
In my case my car weighs in at 1620kg empty so I would make sure that I never towed a van more than 1600kg. My van max is 1420kg and I do have to load up the car with overspill caravan kit and it tows with ease however I have had overheating issues on long European climbs so given the notes in the handbook maybe the load does work the engine too hard in specific instances? If the car was loaded say with 350kg, the caravan should be 1250kg max??
How do you read this Harry, my heads hurtin'!