Water Leak Advice

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

... there must be some correlation between the widespread introduction of OAT, and the exponential increase in elastomer seal failure ...

This is your fundamental mistake Brian. You are starting with a belief, then trying to make the evidence fit it.
True engineers and scientists do the reverse. They start with the evidence then try to work out what is really happening from it.

The KV6 ‘O’ rings don’t fail exponentially as I have explained in post no. 9. You’re very fond of dramatic statements aren’t you.

Oh, we still haven’t heard from Jules have we, concerning his pressure test which he claimed proves that the plastic parts have split (which I dispute). I wonder why.

Simon

[kaiser]

Well, I have had plastic parts split.
A T-piece from my 1.8T, and a split in a thermostat housing.
If you care to search, you will find the pictures in some of my posts.

You are dead wrong on this one.

[kaiser]

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=20577 post 3!
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=20963 posts 21+26
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=21409 post 13
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=26725 post 9+10
https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...d.php?t=123743 post 9

The last reference show a number of pictures.
There are a quite a number more.
Oh, and my expansion box has also cracked, now I think about it!

Can we then get some quiet, please

[marinabrian]

Originally Posted by SD1too

This is your fundamental mistake Brian. You are starting with a belief, then trying to make the evidence fit it.
True engineers and scientists do the reverse. They start with the evidence then try to work out what is really happening from it.

The KV6 ‘O’ rings don’t fail exponentially as I have explained in post no. 9. You’re very fond of dramatic statements aren’t you.

Oh, we still haven’t heard from Jules have we, concerning his pressure test which he claimed proves that the plastic parts have split (which I dispute). I wonder why.

Simon

Simon, when I was referring to exponential increase in failure, I was referring to the elastomer component of the K series head gasket.

I can count on my fingers the amount of k series engines that suffered HGF as a result of water entering the oilways on pre 1998 cars.

Now following the change in 1998 to OAT antifreeze, the most common cause of HGF was failure of the elastomer seal delaminating from the stainless steel component of the gasket, resulting in cross contamination of coolant into oil.

Unlike yourself Simon, I have seen these type of failure modes, not once, or twice, or even a dozen times, we are talking about hundreds of cases.

These are not dramatic statements, they are observations based upon actual cases I have personally dealt with.

So can you tell me this, why have the O rings in my own car failed to leak in almost 400,000 miles, remembering they are the exact same component as fitted to the KV6??

You describe your O rings as flattened, this is not caused by movement, it is caused by chemical incompatibility between the O ring and the media it is sealing against, and is known as compression set.

Failure of O rings that occurs due to abrasion is visually evident as nicks and tears in the surface of the O ring, and they do not appear "flattened" as you describe.

To put a long story short, your theory of tightening the ratchet clips on the straight pipe is complete and utter nonsense, and is certainly not the cause of the failure of your o rings

I can't understand you, I really cannot, you are simply dismissing the evidence that it being presented to you, simply as "you know best"

Why do you think so many 1800 R40 owners opt to replace the coolant tee on the top outlet hose of their cars?, it's because they become embrittled and break.

When I bought my first 75, it was evident at 42,000 miles, this component was well on it's way to failure, and after I replaced it with a "Gerry Tee" I hacksawed it through.

The main tube wall thickness was 3.25mm and you could scrape the inner surface of the tube with your fingernail and reduce this to just over 2mm.

I replaced the coolant after a flush, with blue antifreeze, and the car was driven by my wife for the following five years while she was working as a community midwife.

I didn't stress about checking the coolant daily, or even weekly, It was checked once a month.

Guess what, that car covered over 60,000 miles in her custody without issues

Brian

P.S. Jules in on holiday with his good lady, so I suspect he has better things to do than reply to your questions at this time

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by kaiser

Well, I have had plastic parts split ... a split in a thermostat housing.

I remember Kaiser that you were the only person to respond to my request for evidence of splits. You posted photos of perfectly good components and pointed to the manufacturing seams. These are not splits! Did you perform a leak test to verify your theory? I don’t believe that you did.

Originally Posted by kaiser

The last reference show a number of pictures.

None of them shows the split KV6 thermostat housing which you claim to have experienced though. I haven’t seen any credible evidence from you.

Originally Posted by marinabrian

Simon, when I was referring to exponential increase in failure, I was referring to the elastomer component of the K series head gasket.

Yes, I thought you were. Brian, we are not discussing the alleged effect of antifreeze on the K series head gasket.

You describe your O rings as flattened, this is not caused by movement, it is caused by chemical incompatibility between the O ring and the media it is sealing against ...

i have proven this theory to be incorrect. The flattening cannot be caused by chemical incompatibility because, as I have told you many times Brian including in post no. 9 which you appear to want to ignore, there are many KV6s running with OAT and no flattening of the ‘O’ rings. You cannot explain that.

Failure of O rings that occurs due to abrasion is visually evident as nicks and tears in the surface of the O ring, and they do not appear "flattened" as you describe.

Considering the evidence I’ve just repeated, I suggest that you reconsider my last post. You need to start with the evidence and formulate your theory from that. You’re doing the reverse and that’s why you cannot answer the challenges which I am putting to you.

... your theory of tightening the ratchet clips on the straight pipe is complete and utter nonsense ...

Remember that you still haven’t provided your own explanation of why these clips are provided, why they have a ratchet and why they are mounted in a wide groove. My theory addresses all these factors.
I am waiting Brian.

Simon

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

Jules in on holiday with his good lady, so I suspect he has better things to do than reply to your questions at this time

He was on the forum and posting at 01.10 this morning. What’s your answer to that Brian?

Simon

[kaiser]

Originally Posted by SD1too

I remember Kaiser that you were the only person to respond to my request for evidence of splits. You posted photos of perfectly good components and pointed to the manufacturing seams. These are not splits! Did you perform a leak test to verify your theory? I don’t believe that you did.

None of them shows the split KV6 thermostat housing which you claim to have experienced though. I haven’t seen any credible evidence from you.
..................
Simon

You are becoming totally ridiculous. Any sane person (well obviously not quite all!) can see that there is a crack in the pipe. If you look closely at the marked area of the thermostat housing, you can see discolouring where water has passed through the two thermostat halves.
I can't believe your absolute inability to face reality. Have you totally lost it???
"Perfectly good components" are you kidding???

[kaiser]

Originally Posted by SD1too

He was on the forum and posting at 01.10 this morning. What’s your answer to that Brian?

Simon

Can I, Can I????


He obviously has got better things to do.
And so have I!

[marinabrian]

Originally Posted by SD1too

I remember Kaiser that you were the only person to respond to my request for evidence of splits. You posted photos of perfectly good components and pointed to the manufacturing seams. These are not splits! Did you perform a leak test to verify your theory? I don’t believe that you did.

None of them shows the split KV6 thermostat housing which you claim to have experienced though. I haven’t seen any credible evidence from you.

Yes, I thought you were. Brian, we are not discussing the alleged effect of antifreeze on the K series head gasket.

i have proven this theory to be incorrect. The flattening cannot be caused by chemical incompatibility because, as I have told you many times Brian including in post no. 9 which you appear to want to ignore, there are many KV6s running with OAT and no flattening of the ‘O’ rings. You cannot explain that.

Considering the evidence I’ve just repeated, I suggest that you reconsider my last post. You need to start with the evidence and formulate your theory from that. You’re doing the reverse and that’s why you cannot answer the challenges which I am putting to you.

Remember that you still haven’t provided your own explanation of why these clips are provided, why they have a ratchet and why they are mounted in a wide groove. My theory addresses all these factors.
I am waiting Brian.

Simon

Simon, O rings damaged by movement exhibit signs of mechanical abrasion end of story.

You don't provide any evidence of this, instead you attribute compression set to mechanical movement damage, where it is simply not the case.

Compression set is the symptom, that is the irrefutable evidence you have seen with your own eyes, and choose to ignore.

You also don't answer the question, why do you think the identical o rings in the case of my car have provided leak free service for over 12 years and almost four hundred thousand miles, the only difference being the coolant type they are in contact with.

The KV6 thermostat design is poor, and anyone who has any sense following failure, would be well advised to fit one of Kaiser's excellent cast aluminium versions, and not go down the road of risking the influx of quite frankly rubbish Chinese copies of the original part.

There are many aspects of R40 design that leave a lot to be desired, this is one of them.

Earlier on in the year, I asked what you do for a living and you declined to reply, I can assume from this that you are either too ashamed of revealing this as to expose your shortcomings when it comes to mechanical theory, or revealing you do something so tucked away in the back room as to have never dealt with the public face to face.

Trust me when you are placed under pressure to achieve consistently reliable results when carrying out a repair on any type of machinery, you don't fiddle faddle about discussing the minutiae, you simply assess the mode of failure, make the judgement call as to the most likely cause based upon the evidence presented and do the job.

You however seem so narrow minded to see that people with more experience of the real world than yourself, may well have encountered some of the problems you have found yourself presented with from time to time, and successfully overcome these, with the correct diagnosis

Brian

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by kaiser

Any sane person ... can see that there is a crack in the pipe. If you look closely at the marked area of the thermostat housing, you can see discolouring where water has passed through the two thermostat halves.

A visual inspection alone is not enough. Look at this:



Do you think that this housing is leaking around the seam?

Simon