Front springs; Tourer owners. - Page 3

Caskin · 16th February 2017, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystabe

I had a NS front spring go (thankfully missing the tyre) on my tourer just before Christmas in 2015 - that was a huge pain because I was going to swap to lowering springs and ZT dampers anyway to go with the 18" wheels I'd already put on the car because I was fed up wallowing about - but obviously Christmas means everyone is on holiday and on time deliveries? no chance.

I think you need to shop around for quotes though as £400 is significantly more than I paid for someone to fit 4 dampers and springs - and 4 uprated lowering springs only cost £120 delivered as I recall. Nowadays I mostly buy the parts, stick them in the boot and drive it to my tame garage and let them fit them, I get the parts I want without any of the hassle...... dear me I'm getting old

I'm all for driving to tame garage but virtually non existent in this area, used to have a tame mechanic, but like us he to is now to old!!!
But obviously will be shopping around, as a set of MGDRS springs are reasonable, fitting is the problem, for me anyway the knees don't bend so well these days!!!
Hope yours all worked out in the end.

Caskin · 16th February 2017, 15:09

Suspension

Coil Springs Technical Advice

Automotive coil springs are one of the most central and dynamic components of a vehicle’s suspension system; constantly working to absorb shocks, keep the wheels in contact with the road and deal with uneven road surfaces.

It is therefore no surprise that after many millions of cycles, even the best made springs will become tired and begin to sag; vehicle ride height will drop and may become uneven, and eventual breakage is likely.

There are several reasons for spring failure, and Kilen take various steps to combat these to ensure the longest possible service life.

Poor quality spring wire – Surface and inner defects can exist in lower quality spring wire material. This reduces performance by lowering spring fatigue strength and significantly increasing the risk of breakage. Although almost all melting plants today can produce steel with the specified chemical analysis of ‘spring steel’, only a few mills are able to achieve the surface and wire quality necessary for modern suspension springs with high stress levels. The point to note here is that Kilen only use high grade, specialist ‘spring steel’ from selected mills worldwide.

Heat treatment & Pre-setting – When springs are cold coiled, as many suspension springs are, negative internal stresses are introduced. These must be removed by heat treatment or the chance of failure (breakage) is increased significantly. Kilen remove these negative internal stresses through a controlled stress relieving heat treatment process after cold coiling. Following this, it is important to introduce and control the level of positive residual stress in the spring, as this will reduce shear stress during compression. The controlled use of shot peening and pre-setting ensure high positive residual stress levels within the spring and consequently a reduced risk of breakage during use.

Tapered Wire Design – Some manufacturers use spring wire which tapers towards each end. This generally produces a weight saving, but the risk of premature spring failure is increased since the stress on the tapered wire is almost four times that of the parallel.

There are some misconceptions that progressive spring rate can only be achieved with tapered wire material, and that all tapered wire springs are progressive, especially in the case of mini-block (rugby ball shape) designs. However, springs (mini-block or otherwise) manufactured from tapered wire can have progressive or linear load and deflection characteristics (spring rate).

In general though, a linear rate is observed, since the reduced material diameter towards the end coils compensate for the reduction in the spring’s external diameter, meaning that spring rate generally stays consistent. It is also important to understand that springs made from parallel wire can equally be designed to have a linear or progressive spring rate. The danger with a tapered wire spring, however, is that stresses are almost the same throughout the total length of the material, meaning the end (or transition) coils can have stresses as high as those in the most active part of the mini-block, thereby leading to a greater probability of premature failure.

While Kilen could offer both tapered and parallel wire springs, they choose only to produce from parallel spring wire (constant thickness), offering springs less prone to premature breakage, backed up by a 3 year warranty. Tapered wire spring designs, it should be noted, are also a modest and diminishing part of the market with, for example, the latest BMW E 90 rear spring now using a parallel wire design as opposed to its predecessor’s tapered design.

Corrosion – Corrosion is the most common cause of spring failure, as defects and chips in the layer of lacquer cannot be avoided. Without additional protection, the spring steel will begin to rust immediately, leading to creep corrosion under the lacquer which spreads rapidly, significantly increasing the risk of breakage.

A corrosion attack at the transition end of the coils on a tapered wire spring carrying high stresses, will more quickly lead to breakage than parallel wire. Tapered wire is normally under high stress at the point where the spring leaves the spring plate support (the relief point), so increasing the risk of breakage when exposed to corrosion.

Kilen provide an additional layer of corrosion protection between the paint and the spring by using the galvanic protection method of zinc phosphating on every spring. This provides protection from corrosion even after defects occur in the paint layer and is significantly more effective at preventing corrosion than other phosphating methods.

Fitting in pairs

When a spring fails, due to corrosion or other reasons, drivers often request that only the defective spring be replaced rather than replacing in axle pairs. Failure to replace in pairs can have multiple negative consequences, in addition to likely financial costs. Coil springs fitted in axle pairs degrade at around the same rate during normal use, meaning that when one sags or breaks, the other will most likely not be far behind. When just one spring is replaced on an axle, an imbalance can exist. Replacing springs in pairs will return the vehicle to the original ride height.

Because coil springs are so vital to the overall handling of the vehicle, the uneven ride resulting from a failure to replace in pairs can cause multiple severe safety risks. These include:

Less Responsive Steering – A sagging spring can cause a change in the camber angle on that wheel, resulting in less contact between the road and tyre, potentially causing the vehicle to pull in one direction. Additionally, the spring cannot effectively absorb and dissipate the vehicle load during cornering. This leads to increased body roll on bends.

Less Secure Road Holding – A difference in ride height across one axle has a negative effect on the road holding properties of the vehicle, caused by uneven tyre contact with the road.

Increased Braking Distance – An imbalance caused by a sagging or broken spring will reduce friction and road contact on one or more tyres, leading to an increase in the distance required to stop.

Increased Tyre Wear – A change in the wheel angles caused by a defective spring can lead to faster tyre wear and a premature need for new tyres at a cost which could end up being more than that of a replacement coil spring.

According to the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA), around 15% of all defects discovered during an MOT are suspension related and about 12% of vehicles fail the test due to a suspension problem.

The VOSA MOT inspection guide gives the following reasons for failing a coil spring after visual inspection:

– Cracked or fractured

– Worn or corroded such that it is seriously weakened

– Repaired by welding or damaged by excessive heat

– Not correctly located

– Coil spring mounting which is loose, cracked, fractured or seriously weakened by corrosion.

It is therefore very important for workshops and garages to inspect springs at every opportunity and encourage customers to replace springs in pairs, just as they would with brake pads or discs. It is good practice for garages to advise the customer of any spring issues, even if they may not yet be at the point where MOT failure would be likely. Such issues may include:

– Reduced ride height or vehicle imbalance

– Excessive rust, particularly towards the ends of the coil

– Salt, grit or water build-up within the spring mount, or deterioration of the mount itself

– Chips or scratches to the spring’s surface or clear evidence of creep corrosion

By replacing in pairs, the customer actually achieves an overall cost saving, since the labour to replace a pair will be cheaper than the labour for replacing individual springs twice within a short period of time. Not to mention the inconvenience of the vehicle being off the road on two occasions rather than the once.

Kilen are firmly committed to providing the highest quality products. All Kilen springs come with a 3 year warranty and are certified OE ‘Matching Quality,’ allowing fitment without warranty restrictions and providing complete peace of mind.

madeupname · 17th February 2017, 12:14

Offside front just went on my 75 Saloon. Parked up since driving to Bristol and back on Tuesday so could have been a real nightmare.
At first I thought the bearings had gone but I bought a set of leather seats off ebay last night and rang the seller to say I wouldn't be able to pick them up as planned, and when he asked why and I told him he said to check under the wheel arch cos springs are notorious.
Sure enough there was a sheared steel rod sticking up from behind the wheel, and a split empty plastic tube dangling down.
I'm about to take her to my car doctor and I think I'll ask for all four to be done.
Came on here looking for price of repair and was encouraged to discover £400 for all four is excessive. I'll know what to say if he quotes me higher now.

Caskin · 17th February 2017, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeupname

Offside front just went on my 75 Saloon. Parked up since driving to Bristol and back on Tuesday so could have been a real nightmare.
At first I thought the bearings had gone but I bought a set of leather seats off ebay last night and rang the seller to say I wouldn't be able to pick them up as planned, and when he asked why and I told him he said to check under the wheel arch cos springs are notorious.
Sure enough there was a sheared steel rod sticking up from behind the wheel, and a split empty plastic tube dangling down.
I'm about to take her to my car doctor and I think I'll ask for all four to be done.
Came on here looking for price of repair and was encouraged to discover £400 for all four is excessive. I'll know what to say if he quotes me higher now.

Can you keep us informed of price range? Which springs ie supplier will you be using?
Think it would be a good idea if all FORUM spring breakage repair costs could be quoted so as to give us some ammunition when approaching garage's if that's the way you/we/I wish to go?

madeupname · 17th February 2017, 15:15

"Can you keep us informed of price range? Which springs ie supplier will you be using?" Caskin.

Will do. He's also putting tracking right for me, changing gear box oil, power steering and brake fluids and also tightening up the handbrake. So the bill will total a fair bit anyway. But I'll get a breakdown and also ask about supplier.

Caskin · 17th February 2017, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeupname

"Can you keep us informed of price range? Which springs ie supplier will you be using?" Caskin.

Will do. He's also putting tracking right for me, changing gear box oil, power steering and brake fluids and also tightening up the handbrake. So the bill will total a fair bit anyway. But I'll get a breakdown and also ask about supplier.

If your vehicle is automatic, ensure they know what they are doing when it comes to transmission oil, it has to be done as they say "The correct way".
When I had my 90,000 done, plus exhaust and reversing sensors ,and changing over warranty Power steering pump, the bill was £1600!! And after all that, I had to do the auto transmission myself as they hadn't a clue....guess they saw me coming a long way off.....since then I have done all my own work.
As for springs there is of course Mat our OEM spares supplier site DGMRS..or a another supplier who I have posted on this thread. Or there is always Jules our Guru!!!

madeupname · 17th February 2017, 19:05

Thanks Caskin, she's manual. I've just bought a replacement window switch console for another job from MG rover spares based in Hull. They said to give their phone number and my partsgateway ID to my car doctor for springs, since the ID has all my debit card details on now.
is that the dmgrs you mean? Is that the same as on this forum?

suzublu · 17th February 2017, 19:15

Matt at DMGRS on the forum is a very good source of parts

Re your handbrake, there is a correct proceedure for adjusting, & of course, fitting a modified compensator is a must

Seek out member Arctic for compensators

I notice you've got a 1.8, you'll need this to keep an eye on engine temp. http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=185808

Caskin · 17th February 2017, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by madeupname

Thanks Caskin, she's manual. I've just bought a replacement window switch console for another job from MG rover spares based in Hull. They said to give their phone number and my partsgateway ID to my car doctor for springs, since the ID has all my debit card details on now.
is that the dmgrs you mean? Is that the same as on this forum?

Not quite certain as Suzublu stated on the Forum we tend to use Matt on DGMRS..this is a site which you can find by entering the title into search engine, he certainly will NOT ask to keep your card details on record, personally would find that a tad worrying?

madeupname · 17th February 2017, 19:35

Thanks Suzublu,
No speakers on my puter so I'll look at the vid tomoz at work (I work shifts unfortunately)
Also, before I go to bed ready for an early wake up tomoz, My car doctor couldn't be accurate but gave a figure off the top of his head of £600.
Forgot to mention he's replacing the coolant too.
I've done a bit of digging on line and found prices for :-

Gearbox oil change - £60
Tracking - £20
Brake fluid change - £50

On that basis if we guess at..

Power steering fluid change £50
Coolant change - £50
handbrake adjustment - £20
Then that would make the 4 spring replacement in the region of £350.

Everything needs doing so I gave him the go ahead. I'll give accurate prices when he presents me with the bill.

I'm budgeting a reasonable amount of money for this car so a handbrake compensator is a likely addition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caskin

Not quite certain as Suzublu stated on the Forum we tend to use Matt on DGMRS..this is a site which you can find by entering the title into search engine, he certainly will NOT ask to keep your card details on record, personally would find that a tad worrying?

I have a budget spreadsheet on my puter and tick off all ins and outs on the statements when they arrive. So far there have not been any payments I don't have a receipt for. Paypal holds my details so I assumed that businesses I buy things from either online or over the phone will hold my details too, maybe hoping I'll buy more from them. But I may be wrong. tbh I don't know how that whole thing works.
I understand your concern though but like I said I haven't had any trouble so far.

16th February 2017, 15:09	#22
Caskin Gets stuck in Rover 75 tourer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Plymouth Posts: 809 Thanks: 472 Thanked 116 Times in 85 Posts	Coil spring advice from experts plus a guarantee! Suspension Coil Springs Technical Advice Automotive coil springs are one of the most central and dynamic components of a vehicle’s suspension system; constantly working to absorb shocks, keep the wheels in contact with the road and deal with uneven road surfaces. It is therefore no surprise that after many millions of cycles, even the best made springs will become tired and begin to sag; vehicle ride height will drop and may become uneven, and eventual breakage is likely. There are several reasons for spring failure, and Kilen take various steps to combat these to ensure the longest possible service life. Poor quality spring wire – Surface and inner defects can exist in lower quality spring wire material. This reduces performance by lowering spring fatigue strength and significantly increasing the risk of breakage. Although almost all melting plants today can produce steel with the specified chemical analysis of ‘spring steel’, only a few mills are able to achieve the surface and wire quality necessary for modern suspension springs with high stress levels. The point to note here is that Kilen only use high grade, specialist ‘spring steel’ from selected mills worldwide. Heat treatment & Pre-setting – When springs are cold coiled, as many suspension springs are, negative internal stresses are introduced. These must be removed by heat treatment or the chance of failure (breakage) is increased significantly. Kilen remove these negative internal stresses through a controlled stress relieving heat treatment process after cold coiling. Following this, it is important to introduce and control the level of positive residual stress in the spring, as this will reduce shear stress during compression. The controlled use of shot peening and pre-setting ensure high positive residual stress levels within the spring and consequently a reduced risk of breakage during use. Tapered Wire Design – Some manufacturers use spring wire which tapers towards each end. This generally produces a weight saving, but the risk of premature spring failure is increased since the stress on the tapered wire is almost four times that of the parallel. There are some misconceptions that progressive spring rate can only be achieved with tapered wire material, and that all tapered wire springs are progressive, especially in the case of mini-block (rugby ball shape) designs. However, springs (mini-block or otherwise) manufactured from tapered wire can have progressive or linear load and deflection characteristics (spring rate). In general though, a linear rate is observed, since the reduced material diameter towards the end coils compensate for the reduction in the spring’s external diameter, meaning that spring rate generally stays consistent. It is also important to understand that springs made from parallel wire can equally be designed to have a linear or progressive spring rate. The danger with a tapered wire spring, however, is that stresses are almost the same throughout the total length of the material, meaning the end (or transition) coils can have stresses as high as those in the most active part of the mini-block, thereby leading to a greater probability of premature failure. While Kilen could offer both tapered and parallel wire springs, they choose only to produce from parallel spring wire (constant thickness), offering springs less prone to premature breakage, backed up by a 3 year warranty. Tapered wire spring designs, it should be noted, are also a modest and diminishing part of the market with, for example, the latest BMW E 90 rear spring now using a parallel wire design as opposed to its predecessor’s tapered design. Corrosion – Corrosion is the most common cause of spring failure, as defects and chips in the layer of lacquer cannot be avoided. Without additional protection, the spring steel will begin to rust immediately, leading to creep corrosion under the lacquer which spreads rapidly, significantly increasing the risk of breakage. A corrosion attack at the transition end of the coils on a tapered wire spring carrying high stresses, will more quickly lead to breakage than parallel wire. Tapered wire is normally under high stress at the point where the spring leaves the spring plate support (the relief point), so increasing the risk of breakage when exposed to corrosion. Kilen provide an additional layer of corrosion protection between the paint and the spring by using the galvanic protection method of zinc phosphating on every spring. This provides protection from corrosion even after defects occur in the paint layer and is significantly more effective at preventing corrosion than other phosphating methods. Fitting in pairs When a spring fails, due to corrosion or other reasons, drivers often request that only the defective spring be replaced rather than replacing in axle pairs. Failure to replace in pairs can have multiple negative consequences, in addition to likely financial costs. Coil springs fitted in axle pairs degrade at around the same rate during normal use, meaning that when one sags or breaks, the other will most likely not be far behind. When just one spring is replaced on an axle, an imbalance can exist. Replacing springs in pairs will return the vehicle to the original ride height. Because coil springs are so vital to the overall handling of the vehicle, the uneven ride resulting from a failure to replace in pairs can cause multiple severe safety risks. These include: Less Responsive Steering – A sagging spring can cause a change in the camber angle on that wheel, resulting in less contact between the road and tyre, potentially causing the vehicle to pull in one direction. Additionally, the spring cannot effectively absorb and dissipate the vehicle load during cornering. This leads to increased body roll on bends. Less Secure Road Holding – A difference in ride height across one axle has a negative effect on the road holding properties of the vehicle, caused by uneven tyre contact with the road. Increased Braking Distance – An imbalance caused by a sagging or broken spring will reduce friction and road contact on one or more tyres, leading to an increase in the distance required to stop. Increased Tyre Wear – A change in the wheel angles caused by a defective spring can lead to faster tyre wear and a premature need for new tyres at a cost which could end up being more than that of a replacement coil spring. According to the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA), around 15% of all defects discovered during an MOT are suspension related and about 12% of vehicles fail the test due to a suspension problem. The VOSA MOT inspection guide gives the following reasons for failing a coil spring after visual inspection: – Cracked or fractured – Worn or corroded such that it is seriously weakened – Repaired by welding or damaged by excessive heat – Not correctly located – Coil spring mounting which is loose, cracked, fractured or seriously weakened by corrosion. It is therefore very important for workshops and garages to inspect springs at every opportunity and encourage customers to replace springs in pairs, just as they would with brake pads or discs. It is good practice for garages to advise the customer of any spring issues, even if they may not yet be at the point where MOT failure would be likely. Such issues may include: – Reduced ride height or vehicle imbalance – Excessive rust, particularly towards the ends of the coil – Salt, grit or water build-up within the spring mount, or deterioration of the mount itself – Chips or scratches to the spring’s surface or clear evidence of creep corrosion By replacing in pairs, the customer actually achieves an overall cost saving, since the labour to replace a pair will be cheaper than the labour for replacing individual springs twice within a short period of time. Not to mention the inconvenience of the vehicle being off the road on two occasions rather than the once. Kilen are firmly committed to providing the highest quality products. All Kilen springs come with a 3 year warranty and are certified OE ‘Matching Quality,’ allowing fitment without warranty restrictions and providing complete peace of mind. __________________ Why weather the storm when you can learn to dance in the rain. Jobs done: Purchased 52 plate V6 connie Wedgewood blue,one owner,42000 on clock ,Virtually pristine.2017 service,new Goodyear tyres,Discs and pads all round,new battery,New cam and timing belts (3rd fitting in life of car),plus full normal service.exhaust 2016.First mod was to bonnet catch .Latest mod,triple heart pace maker. All brake lines changed for copper, all brake hoses changed for Pagid hoses.

17th February 2017, 19:15	#28
suzublu This is my second home rover 75 1.8 vvc club se wedgwood blue Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Seaton Carew Posts: 26,935 Thanks: 65 Thanked 7,142 Times in 4,642 Posts	Matt at DMGRS on the forum is a very good source of parts Re your handbrake, there is a correct proceedure for adjusting, & of course, fitting a modified compensator is a must Seek out member Arctic for compensators I notice you've got a 1.8, you'll need this to keep an eye on engine temp. http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=185808 Last edited by suzublu; 17th February 2017 at 19:17..

17th February 2017, 12:14	#23
madeupname Posted a thing or two Rover 75 Connie Mk2 1.8 (Mo) Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,531 Thanks: 875 Thanked 335 Times in 289 Posts	Offside front just went on my 75 Saloon. Parked up since driving to Bristol and back on Tuesday so could have been a real nightmare. At first I thought the bearings had gone but I bought a set of leather seats off ebay last night and rang the seller to say I wouldn't be able to pick them up as planned, and when he asked why and I told him he said to check under the wheel arch cos springs are notorious. Sure enough there was a sheared steel rod sticking up from behind the wheel, and a split empty plastic tube dangling down. I'm about to take her to my car doctor and I think I'll ask for all four to be done. Came on here looking for price of repair and was encouraged to discover £400 for all four is excessive. I'll know what to say if he quotes me higher now.

17th February 2017, 15:15	#25
madeupname Posted a thing or two Rover 75 Connie Mk2 1.8 (Mo) Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,531 Thanks: 875 Thanked 335 Times in 289 Posts	"Can you keep us informed of price range? Which springs ie supplier will you be using?" Caskin. Will do. He's also putting tracking right for me, changing gear box oil, power steering and brake fluids and also tightening up the handbrake. So the bill will total a fair bit anyway. But I'll get a breakdown and also ask about supplier.

17th February 2017, 19:05	#27
madeupname Posted a thing or two Rover 75 Connie Mk2 1.8 (Mo) Join Date: Feb 2017 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,531 Thanks: 875 Thanked 335 Times in 289 Posts	Thanks Caskin, she's manual. I've just bought a replacement window switch console for another job from MG rover spares based in Hull. They said to give their phone number and my partsgateway ID to my car doctor for springs, since the ID has all my debit card details on now. is that the dmgrs you mean? Is that the same as on this forum?