Any gas fitters in the Alfreton (Derbyshire) area?

[cb750chris]

My wife has a place up in Tibshelf, Derbyshire.

It has an old back boiler, which we have been advised is at end of life, it is still functioning, but have been advised it needs replacing.
Are there any gas fitters on here who would be interested in fitting a combination boiler, and removing the old back boiler, hot water tank etc. This is in a rental property, so needs to be a gas registered person, not just someone who can do gas work.



Please drop me a message if you can help, otherwise we will have to go with the plumber the rental place has suggested (who seems a bit pricey to me).




Regards
Chris

[bendrick]

I'm a gas engineer, nowhere near you I'm afraid.

just pointing out that the old back boilers can quite often be attached to 30, 40 or even 50 year old pipework and rads, and new sealed system combi boilers will operate at about 3 or 4 times the water pressure of a traditional open vent tank fed system.

Which in many cases will result in blown joints, radiators and split pipes all over the old system (especially if there are any buried in concrete floors runs).

I don't wish to appear alarmist but it is a very real and regular occurance where just the boiler is changed over on an old system which is why many reputable C/Htg firms wont just change an old back boiler but will insist on quoting for a complete new system ( and often be accused of 'trying it on' for their pains if pointing out this very real occurrence )

So I would be very wary of using any firm which doesn't point this out when quoting should the rest of the system be as old as the back boiler which it normally would be.

Having supervised the installation teams of a firm changing over 50 old boilers to modern sealed system condensing combi boilers a week under the Nest scheme and facing this subsequent problem countless times every day I just thought that I would warn you of this in order that you can question anyone giving you quotes about the overall state of the rest of the system.

I'm afraid that replacing the whole system if recommended is rather expensive as I'm sure that you would already suspect.


BTW everyone carrying out paid for gas work has to be qualified and registered with Gas Safe whether in a private or rented property.

[cb750chris]

Thanks for your reply Kevin, good to get some information which explains the higher than expected cost. We have asked for written confirmation of what is covered in the quote, to ensure it covers your helpful advice.







I was in no way suggesting getting somebody not gas safe registered to work on the system. However my knowledge of gas safe registration is scratchy. I didn't know if a person could be authorised to do gas work, but only whilst working for an employer. (As can be the case for window fitters - a friend is a window fitter, but cannot sign off a fensa certificate unless it is in behalf of his employer - so if he helps me fitting a window then I would have to go down the building inspector route)


Regards
Chris

[bendrick]

Its a good point.

To be registered (unless its changed) I presume that you would have to be a company or individual sole trader registered and listed on the Gas Safe register which is open to the public to check.

Gas engineers can be qualified and up to date with their 5 yearly updates but not necessarily registered with Gas Safe unless they are working for a registered firm and/or registered in their own right as a seperate entity. Meaning that as you suggest if they are covered by the umbrella of a firm that they work for they would not be registered to do private work unless they had also taken out an individual registration for themselves also.

So in the event of a qualified employee of a registered company doing what is commonly known in different areas as a Darker / Foreigner / Fiddle then the appliance installation would not be able to be registered as the regulations demand.

If you would like any further information that you feel that i may be able to help you with please feel free to contact me by private message.

[Madderz]

There is one company that does a condensing back-boiler, Baxi.
They have a 10 year life expectancy, and would probably be a much better proposition for you as a landlord.
That is if you can find someone to fit what you actually require, rather than what THEY want to fit!

On a technicality you could get a commercial company to carry out the work, as it's part of your 'Buisness' interest.
It's a bit of a grey area, but I'm not wrong lol
If they carried it out you could get away without having to fit Smart Controls or flue heat recovery, Weather compensater, or any other bumf that's part of the bilaws for a conventional domestic dwelling.

[cb750chris]

Thanks for your replies gents.
Madderz, thanks for your suggestions, but think it is best to go simple and comply with normal domestic relations.

[stocktake]

Originally Posted by bendrick

Its a good point.

To be registered (unless its changed) I presume that you would have to be a company or individual sole trader registered and listed on the Gas Safe register which is open to the public to check.

Gas engineers can be qualified and up to date with their 5 yearly updates but not necessarily registered with Gas Safe unless they are working for a registered firm and/or registered in their own right as a seperate entity. Meaning that as you suggest if they are covered by the umbrella of a firm that they work for they would not be registered to do private work unless they had also taken out an individual registration for themselves also.

So in the event of a qualified employee of a registered company doing what is commonly known in different areas as a Darker / Foreigner / Fiddle then the appliance installation would not be able to be registered as the regulations demand.

If you would like any further information that you feel that i may be able to help you with please feel free to contact me by private message.

Or, the entire installation CAN be completed by a qualified competent person who is not registered. Then the installation can be commissioned and registered by a group or individual who is qualified and on the Gas Safe Register.

[bendrick]

Originally Posted by stocktake

Or, the entire installation CAN be completed by a qualified competent person who is not registered. Then the installation can be commissioned and registered by a group or individual who is qualified and on the Gas Safe Register.

Rather bizarrely that is correct. However I would make the following observations.


1) The Gas Regs do rather madly state that a gas installation can be installed by a 'competent person'. Presumably you would only find out who is and who isn't competent after an explosion or death by fumes.

2) a massive anomaly for me is for example the situation of cooker bayonet points where as many on this forum will know that when introduced many years ago allowed any strapper to unplug their cooker and move or exchange it because of the twist and turn bayonet point on the wall and the matching flexible hose on the cooker side.

Previously cookers had been fixed with rigid pipes and house occupants were unable to move cookers themselves for cleaning, when moving house, or buying a new cooker.

The new flexi pipes and cooker bayonets were a great introduction I'm sure that we'd all agree. However heres the rub. As a paid for professional gas engineer whenever an installation is interrupted or broken into, even just a cooker bayonet disconnection or connection, myself and all other gas engineers quite rightly have to put a whole house test on the entire house installation and pipework before leaving.

Gas engineers will know that in a small proportion of cases the gas bayonets points do not seal correctly and can leak gas, also a flexible cooker pipe can leak at the joining point of the rubber armoured hose and the brass collar when disturbed.

This would be picked up by an engineer whilst carrying out a drop test at the meter before leaving the house or connecting at the new property at the other end of a house move.

A so called unqualified 'competent person' or a householder moving house would quite possibly be unaware that they had left a leaking bayonet point when moving house thus leaving a gas leak in an unoccupied house or possibly be creating one when plugging their cooker into their new house.



3) If an installation is carried out and commissioned for money then the installer must be Gas certified and on the register, and is responsible ( unfairly in my view ) for the entire installation when working on any single part of the house carcass or any appliances and will pick up a gas leak within the property from their drop test at the meter upon completion of their work even if a leak isn't apparent beforehand.

They will also identify any other illegally fitted or visible dangerous installation of appliances or pipework within the property by means of a quick visual inspection of all appliances in the property even if they are not workng on them.

4) Any installer or engineer who certifies other unqualified peoples work to issue a certificate in their name must be mad in my opinion as they will be responsible for any future leaks or failure of unseen pipework or hidden installation matters that are incorrect.

I wonder if Marinabrian, Jules or Trikey or whoever would be happy signing a certificate to say that I had safely installed new suspension or steering components on my 75 if they hadn't watched me carry out the work or knew nothing of my skills or lack of them?

I have seen many unsoldered joints stay gas tight for anything up to 40 years holding the gas pressure only on the flux as the original installer had forgotten to solder it, before starting to leak many years later. Why would anyone be stupid enough to put a test on and certify someone elses possible forgetfulness or hidden incompetence just for the sake of a couple of quid?

How would a qualfied engineeer be able to see if a so called 'competent' unqualified ( or for that matter qualified ) person had assembled a flue assembly correctly in a wall if they hadn't done it themselves?

I've lost count of the number of the boiler flue assemblies or back boiler copex liners that have been cut short and not fitted correctly subsequently discovered later posing a carbon monoxide threat.

5) What isn't taken into consideration when unqualified 'competent persons' install gas appliances and pipework is that they are not just gambling with their own lives but those of the occupants of the houses that they are working in, subsequent house buyers of the property, visitors and of course neighbours of the property also.

I have personally cut off and disconnected thousands of unsafe appliances during my 45 years as a gas engineer some which have 'gone faulty' but countless appliances which were never installed correctly from the start and were highly dangerous and installed rather alarmingly sometimes by professionals but often by 'a bloke down the pub' who apparently knew what he was doing.

What never ceased to amaze me at the almost inevitable blazing row with the householder whenever I disconnected a dangerously fitted appliance was that they would never be prepared to identify the person down the pub who had put their and their families lives in danger. Personally put in the same scenario I would have been straight been down their house in a flash and filled them in for endangering my and my families lives.

The number of times I have had housewives threatening to take me to court and ranting and raving because I have turned off a gas fire or boiler that was emitting carbon monoxide, screaming that it is their kids only form of heating and insisting that I reconnect the appliance immediately you would not believe.

Imagine that! Insisting that I reconnect a carbon monoxide emitting appliance so the kids can keep warm! You couldn't make it up.

Another huge anomaly in the Gas Regs is that an engineer is not legally allowed to disconnect a dangerous appliance without the permission of the householder.

Which is mad and I wonder who actually legislates this stuff.

Because of the inevitable row when I came across a dangerous appliance I used to disconnect them first before informing the customer quite happy that in the unlikely event that a nutter would take me to court ( it never happened ) that a court would shake its head that someone would be insisting that an engineer couple back up a dangerous appliance . Once in a blue moon a smart alec would quote the gas regs at me pointing out that I wasn't allowed to disconnect without their permission.

I used to smile as they clearly didn't know that although technically correct, their barrack room knowledge hadn't extended to the bit in the regs where the local Gas supplier after being informed by the engineer involved would come along and dig up the pavement and chop off the gas supply to the house to those who still insisted on their dangerous appliance being left connected.

It was quite funny seeing the 'know it alls' faces as the Gas Board mains crew set to work digging up the pavement outside their house and chopping off their supply with all subsequent substantial reconnection charges applicable to the bolshy housholder before they got their gas back on.

The problem of poor and dangerous installation work by untrained or increasingly very poorly trained 'competent persons' is huge, aided and abetted by successive governments constant dropping of standards in this country in order that politicians can boast that they have trained up x amount of engineers and all is well.

I stopped working on gas fires years and years ago after finding that I was turning off nearly 60% of all fires that I was called out to because they were incorrectly fitted. I got fed up of dealing with irate customers who refused to believe that their fires were dangerous and ( understandably I suppose ) were narked that I was condemning their fire.

I'm sure that many householders will be horrified to find out that many plumbers gas certified have been registered after tacking on a two week gas course onto their plumbing training as opposed to my and others 3 year Gas apprenticeships. Its all down to eradication of standards in this country year on year. One would have thought that standards would be tightened up and improved ongoing...instead the powers to be have done the exact opposite and dumbed down standards year on year ( in most fields )

Its a disgrace and I'm sure that most of us experience it in many fields in this country today.This in the week that we find out that The current Government is to scrap literacy and numeracy testing of new teachers in order to boost teacher numbers.


The bottom line for me is why go to anyone other than a recommended locally well regarded professional when having gas work carried out especially when you consider that the overwhelming number of deaths in this country each year to do with gas is the silent odourless killer of carbon monoxide poisoning from poorly installed or maintained gas appliances rather than the usually more readily identified threat of a smelling gas leak?

Just get people in who not only know what they are doing but have proved it by completing and passing a recognised qualification.

[daveb57]

Hi Chris.

I live around the area and can recommend a guy I have used for some considerable time.

Tom fitted us a new combi boiler last August, superb job done and he is obviously registered with all relevant paperwork etc. Clean efficient and tidy, not able to prise his work enough.

www.tomkplumbingandheating.co.uk will get you to him.

Regards,

Dave.