Another Ztt bites the dust - probably

[Bean66]

So what could replace the current multi tier VED system?


Lets assume for the sake or argument (well discussion) that putting it on fuel is a no go.

Far too easy for Govt to manipulate and hide in a budget, That is unless we have a fuel tax element that is discrete and identified as VED in fuel, then possible. But as stated it adds to inflation and thus could be subject to outside influences and there is also the downside that there should be a financial way of linking a vehicle to a person to reduce cars on the road with dodgy or fake ID’s. Ideally we could have holographic (not copy able at least not without great expense) VED discs as Dorset Bob says we have £107 million is lost rev to put that one right.

So the system should take into account pollution (and ideally economy), esp at the point of sale, to try to encourage people to buy a more economical and environmental cars (I’m using car to mean any vehicle) and bring in the pretty much the same revenue as the current VED system so no loss there. Which I’m sure would be important to the bean counters.

So what about a system whereby the initial 3 or 5 years to VED was related to CO2 (or similar) and/or MPG (bands whatever) but after that it fell to a limited number of flat rates.


So if fancy and can afford an expensive big engine gas-guzzler (like the Americanism!!) no prob but you can pay a bit more tax for the privilege and if you get the latest Eco model you get the benefit of paying a bit less. How much? No idea, but maybe similar or a bit less than the current first year VED’s.

So after that initial 3 to 5 they could drop to the flat rate. The only variance would be surplus for the dreaded D (you know cuz NoX and particulates) and the highest CO2 and very low MPG models, so maybe 4 bands? (Zero, Low, Normal, High)

Then, as we have now, a VED free period after X number of years for classic cars. But not sure of the timescale. Its currently 40 years and only very few make it that long, which I suppose is the idea. After all many think the Ztt that started this thread off will make it? I doubt it as the VED from now to then will be around £15k with no VED increases.

So the above should have some impact on vehicle choice at point of sale. But after that initial buying decision its kind of immaterial. (don’t forget lots of company cars and new car buyers change after 3 to 5 years so it is that buying decision the VED is trying to influence.)

All a high VED on a older car means is that a car might be scrapped way before its useful life is over just cuz its in the wrong VED band, like our MG that started this.


Sounds to complex, well not really, if Google and Facebook AI Algorithms can track people all over the web and target them with all kinds of messages and ads I’m sure the details of a VED system can be calculated to bring in the same Rev and future trends modelled easily enough. (I could do it in Excel if I had the data!!)


Now I’m sure there are plenty of holes in this and I’ll be shot down in flames. But it is only a discussion point and after 5 mins thinking about it seems a bit fairer than the current system.

Yeah.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by Bean66

So what could replace the current multi tier VED system?


Lets assume for the sake or argument (well discussion) that putting it on fuel is a no go.

Far too easy for Govt to manipulate and hide in a budget, That is unless we have a fuel tax element that is discrete and identified as VED in fuel, then possible. But as stated it adds to inflation and thus could be subject to outside influences and there is also the downside that there should be a financial way of linking a vehicle to a person to reduce cars on the road with dodgy or fake ID’s. Ideally we could have holographic (not copy able at least not without great expense) VED discs as Dorset Bob says we have £107 million is lost rev to put that one right.

So the system should take into account pollution (and ideally economy), esp at the point of sale, to try to encourage people to buy a more economical and environmental cars (I’m using car to mean any vehicle) and bring in the pretty much the same revenue as the current VED system so no loss there. Which I’m sure would be important to the bean counters.

So what about a system whereby the initial 3 or 5 years to VED was related to CO2 (or similar) and/or MPG (bands whatever) but after that it fell to a limited number of flat rates.


So if fancy and can afford an expensive big engine gas-guzzler (like the Americanism!!) no prob but you can pay a bit more tax for the privilege and if you get the latest Eco model you get the benefit of paying a bit less. How much? No idea, but maybe similar or a bit less than the current first year VED’s.

So after that initial 3 to 5 they could drop to the flat rate. The only variance would be surplus for the dreaded D (you know cuz NoX and particulates) and the highest CO2 and very low MPG models, so maybe 4 bands? (Zero, Low, Normal, High)

Then, as we have now, a VED free period after X number of years for classic cars. But not sure of the timescale. Its currently 40 years and only very few make it that long, which I suppose is the idea. After all many think the Ztt that started this thread off will make it? I doubt it as the VED from now to then will be around £15k with no VED increases.

So the above should have some impact on vehicle choice at point of sale. But after that initial buying decision its kind of immaterial. (don’t forget lots of company cars and new car buyers change after 3 to 5 years so it is that buying decision the VED is trying to influence.)

All a high VED on a older car means is that a car might be scrapped way before its useful life is over just cuz its in the wrong VED band, like our MG that started this.


Sounds to complex, well not really, if Google and Facebook AI Algorithms can track people all over the web and target them with all kinds of messages and ads I’m sure the details of a VED system can be calculated to bring in the same Rev and future trends modelled easily enough. (I could do it in Excel if I had the data!!)


Now I’m sure there are plenty of holes in this and I’ll be shot down in flames. But it is only a discussion point and after 5 mins thinking about it seems a bit fairer than the current system.

Yeah.

A great bit of work there - I’ll have a good look when I’m better - manflu is sadly dragging me down.

The issue we have now is that after all the stupid tinkering we have the same car type with multiple VED rates dependent on when it was registered.

Totally crazy

[COLVERT]

Originally Posted by mss

One genuine question if I may - what do we think our drivers do in Jonny Foreign land when they go over there, which they do by the millions every year?

I live in---Jonny Foreign Land----( France. ) and pay NO VED----Road tax--Road fund license or whatever you want to call it. Nothing.---

The French tend not to roll over and play dead when what they consider is an unfair tax thrust upon them. They rise up and do something about it.

In Britain they do what you say you do. 'Pay it because it must be fair as it applies to everybody'.

When the government wants to put its hand in YOUR pocket it is more often than not unfair.--



PS. What I really love is when I go over to Britain to visit relatives I drive about with NO TAX on my car.------

[MSS]

Originally Posted by COLVERT

I live in---Jonny Foreign Land----( France. ) and pay NO VED----Road tax--Road fund license or whatever you want to call it. Nothing.---

The French tend not to roll over and play dead when what they consider is an unfair tax thrust upon them. They rise up and do something about it.

In Britain they do what you say you do. 'Pay it because it must be fair as it applies to everybody'.

When the government wants to put its hand in YOUR pocket it is more often than not unfair.--


PS. What I really love is when I go over to Britain to visit relatives I drive about with NO TAX on my car.------

Excellent - so that counters the point that foreigners drive around the UK for free whilst having to pay when they go abroad (which was the point made by another poster that led me to ask the question).

Also, if we wanted to charge foreign drivers for use of UK roads that could easily be done as in Germany with their "foreigner toll". This could be levied at the ports based on mileage and is not a strong argument for doing away with VED.

Out of interest, what is the average level of total tax in relation to all gains and wealth in France relative to the UK? This is what really matters at the end of day, not the categories used for collecting taxes.

[COLVERT]

Originally Posted by mss

Excellent - so that counters the point that foreigners drive around the UK for free whilst having to pay when they go abroad (which was the point made by another poster that led me to ask the question).

Also, if we wanted to charge foreign drivers for use of UK roads that could easily be done as in Germany with their "foreigner toll". This could be levied at the ports based on mileage and is not a strong argument for doing away with VED.

Out of interest, what is the average level of total tax in relation to all gains and wealth in France relative to the UK? This is what really matters at the end of day, not the categories used for collecting taxes.

You wouldn't want to put off foreign drivers as for the most part they are holiday makers who conscribe a good sum of money to the British economy. ( it must run into millions. )

Income tax is higher here in France than in Britain.



PS. I forgot to say. My number plate seems to be a cloak of invisibility ( as per Harry Potter films. Lol. ) as the fixed Radar seems to ignore it.-



HAPPY NEW YEAR to one and all.----

[MSS]

Originally Posted by COLVERT

You wouldn't want to put off foreign drivers as for the most part they are holiday makers who conscribe a good sum of money to the British economy. ( it must run into millions. )

Income tax is higher here in France than in Britain.

PS. I forgot to say. My number plate seems to be a cloak of invisibility ( as per Harry Potter films. Lol. ) as the fixed Radar seems to ignore it.-

HAPPY NEW YEAR to one and all.----

I agree wholeheartedly - it was someone else in an earlier post in this thread who was complaining about foreign drivers getting away without paying VED whilst driving on our roads (as a justification for putting it on fuel instead). My post was intended to facilitate drawing out the bigger picture, for which I thank you.

[topman]

Originally Posted by mss

Out of interest, what is the average level of total tax in relation to all gains and wealth in France relative to the UK? This is what really matters at the end of day, not the categories used for collecting taxes.

Yes, that'd be interesting to see if it is just moving tax from one to another (motoring) place or if their motoring taxes do make up a bigger proportion.

[topman]

Originally Posted by mss

I agree wholeheartedly - it was someone else in an earlier post in this thread who was complaining about foreign drivers getting away without paying VED whilst driving on our roads (as a justification for putting it on fuel instead). My post was intended to facilitate drawing out the bigger picture, for which I thank you.

Do you think it would put off tourists from coming to the UK? I'm not so sure, in holiday terms another ~11p a litre would make much of a difference to their decision?

[Avulon]

Originally Posted by COLVERT

You wouldn't want to put off foreign drivers as for the most part they are holiday makers who conscribe a good sum of money to the British economy. ( it must run into millions. )

conscribe
/kənˈskrʌɪb/
verbarchaic

verb: conscribe; 3rd person present: conscribes; past tense: conscribed; past participle: conscribed; gerund or present participle: conscribing

1. enlist (someone) compulsorily, typically into the armed services; conscript.
   
   
   
   

???


Perhaps you mean 'Contribute'?


Total UK tourism revenue (from visitors from the whole world) is worth around £250bn a year. No hard figures for EU visitors alone but say around 10% (The EU accounts for slightly less than 10% of the worlds population.) so around £25bn. (an educated guess).

[MSS]

Originally Posted by topman

Do you think it would put off tourists from coming to the UK? I'm not so sure, in holiday terms another ~11p a litre would make much of a difference to their decision?

No I don't - not directly - but equally I also don't believe that it would make any noticeable difference to the revenues collected. It just supports the view that worrying about foreign drivers is nothing more than pettiness.


Any actions that contribute to a national reputation for pettiness will in my view have an effect on the UK's popularity with tourists.