Crank Pulley Bolt -apologies

peter752.0 · 3rd January 2017, 16:44

Firstly, I apologize for having to post about this, as I know this topic has been covered enough times.

However- this is somewhat particular.

I cannot for the life of me find any info regarding -how- one is to lock the crankshaft using a screwdriver in the starter hole. Do I just hammer it in where the gap between the ring gear and bell housing tightens?- This hasn't worked- lol. There doesn't appear to be any logical way of 'slotting' it between the teeth. Any enlightenment would be most welcome.

Secondly, I've hired a Hilti cordless impact wrench from HSS hire. Was rather hoping it would do the job- no joy so far. The specification published on HSS's website indicated 450Nm. I know the tightening sequence produces a really high torque figure when done properly.. but more than 450?!

Admittedly I am being slightly naughty and using a normal socket. It is however a very good one - chunky, 6 point (the kind that applies the pressure to the sides of the hexagon, not the corners).

I have a good breaker bar and have tried massive extensions, but I couldn't lock the ring gear so just slipped after what I guess was about 150Nm

Any advice would be much appreciated as goodness knows how I'm supposed to remove it otherwise.

Cheers- Peter

EastPete · 3rd January 2017, 16:56

Peter

On one occasion when I did not have the proper locking tool for this job, I jammed the flywheel gear teeth through the starter motor hole with a broad tyre lever - a screwdriver I think will not be man enough for the job. Try to get the proper locking tool if you can - it makes the job much easier, and reduces risk of damage to the flywheel (or even crankshaft twisting, as some here claim can happen with this method). I do have the tool, but I only lend it out on a collect and return in person basis - I do not want to get involved in posting it around the country.

The bolt will be very tight, and only the top of the range windy guns (1000 Nm plus) will shift it. When I have done them, I have used a six foot scaffold pole over a three foot 3/4 inch breaker bar to shift the bolt - nothing else would touch it.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.

Cheers

Pete

klarzy · 3rd January 2017, 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter752.0

Firstly, I apologize for having to post about this, as I know this topic has been covered enough times.

However- this is somewhat particular.

I cannot for the life of me find any info regarding -how- one is to lock the crankshaft using a screwdriver in the starter hole. Do I just hammer it in where the gap between the ring gear and bell housing tightens?- This hasn't worked- lol. There doesn't appear to be any logical way of 'slotting' it between the teeth. Any enlightenment would be most welcome.

Secondly, I've hired a Hilti cordless impact wrench from HSS hire. Was rather hoping it would do the job- no joy so far. The specification published on HSS's website indicated 450Nm. I know the tightening sequence produces a really high torque figure when done properly.. but more than 450?!

Admittedly I am being slightly naughty and using a normal socket. It is however a very good one - chunky, 6 point (the kind that applies the pressure to the sides of the hexagon, not the corners).

I have a good breaker bar and have tried massive extensions, but I couldn't lock the ring gear so just slipped after what I guess was about 150Nm

Any advice would be much appreciated as goodness knows how I'm supposed to remove it otherwise.

Cheers- Peter

I would strongly suggest getting one of the pulley locking tools off ebay for around 30 quid, it will help ensure no damage to any other part of the engine...

The essential part of the tightening is not the torque, its the rotation as the bolt is the stretch type...

its 100Nm to begin the 60 degrees then 60 more (1 flat of the nut each time)

It took a 3/4 4 foot long breaker bar and every ounce of pull I had to crack one of mine... I nearly lifted the car off the axel stand...

locking it up was easier...

I would not have likes to put that much force through the crank or starter ring teeth....

COLVERT · 3rd January 2017, 17:17

Buy the correct tool cos snapping your cast crankshaft will make you Very unhappy.----

T16 · 3rd January 2017, 22:29

INDEED.

What I found was I didnt have to lock the flywheel with the correct tool.

As you do up, the friction between the pulley and the crankshaft, means that it will loosen fine, and tighten up fine, without turning anything.

When I cracked mine off, I used a 5 foot long scaffold pole, an 8 or 12" long 3/4" extension resting in the top of an axle stand (perfect height), and a 3/4" 1.2m long breaker bar in the scaffold.

Still with all this, I needed to bounce and jump to get it to undo. I was actually near the rear end of the damn car it was so long. Tightening up was easier, but quite frightening, I even wrapped the breaker elbow in rags just in case the thing decided to shatter.

I can without a shadow of a doubt say this was the worst job I have EVER EVER had to do on a car. Its scary. Even a gearbox off job or a clutch replacement was better than this horrid job.

The windy guns and air tools just cannot touch this bolt. Also for me I would not like to be putting that much shock force through the crank either. Better to stick to the proper tool, and just get scaffolded up I'm afraid!!

I genuinely feel for any poor soul who has done this job, you never forget it!

If you search on here, the BMW part number is available, I even took pics of mine, and its available to order via BMW for about £65 or so. I modified mine as when Rover changed over the bolts from old to the newer, the thickness of the head of the bolt changed, so I had the centre of my tool machined out to accommodate the BIZARRE decision by Rover to change the bolt and washer. Means it fits both Mk1 and Mk2 no problem.

COLVERT · 4th January 2017, 17:52

Yer tis----------

peter752.0 · 4th January 2017, 22:33

thanks.

Gracious- do you think I actually might deform the crank? Christ. I presume this would be 'achieved' by the pressure on the flywheel?

Sadly I learned about the futility of mid power impact guns the hard way.

Hindsight eh.. I should have spent that money on the tool, NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-.

I can't say I expected the job to be easy. It is at least 'straightforward' if not easy.

Guessing you folks think I'll break a half inch bar? I have a nice one with a very sturdy head, but this I'm guessing may mean the likelihood of smashing it goes up.

I do at least have strength these days, and I knew what I was getting into having done the same thing on a meager vw polo some years ago.

klarzy · 5th January 2017, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter752.0

thanks.

Gracious- do you think I actually might deform the crank? Christ. I presume this would be 'achieved' by the pressure on the flywheel?

Sadly I learned about the futility of mid power impact guns the hard way.

Hindsight eh.. I should have spent that money on the tool, NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-.

I can't say I expected the job to be easy. It is at least 'straightforward' if not easy.

Guessing you folks think I'll break a half inch bar? I have a nice one with a very sturdy head, but this I'm guessing may mean the likelihood of smashing it goes up.

I do at least have strength these days, and I knew what I was getting into having done the same thing on a meager vw polo some years ago.

A 3/4 inch bar at a minimum, 3-4 feet long PLUS a length of scaffold pole to extend it...

The pulley is on one end of the crank, the flywheel on the other.. if you lock the flywheel and turn the crank with > 1000Nm *that's 100kg of force 1 meter from the bolt... its a lot of twist going straight through the crank.
You only need to deform it by some fraction of a degree and the timing and balance of the bottom part of the engine can be thrown out.

we need more then 100kg at nearly 2 meters from the bolt so do the math.... its a hell of a stress on the crank...

the holding tool is designed to lock the pulley itself so no force at all goes into the crank, bearings or seals...

peter752.0 · 11th January 2017, 00:18

Ok thanks. I'll try with the half inch first thing tomorrow just in case it feels like it's going to go the distance, but I'm expecting to buy a 3/4 and a strong socket. Halfrauds actually have a very chunky looking model in the cupboard.. doesn't have any of this break-safe nonsense.. just a really thick sturdy head.

Thanks for your advice guys. As usual, I should have posted earlier, but thankfully I didn't manage to exert any real force on the crank (nothing above 130Nm, say, so it should be AOK.

I have the right locking tool now. Wish me luck..

Quote:

Originally Posted by klarzy

A 3/4 inch bar at a minimum, 3-4 feet long PLUS a length of scaffold pole to extend it...

The pulley is on one end of the crank, the flywheel on the other.. if you lock the flywheel and turn the crank with > 1000Nm *that's 100kg of force 1 meter from the bolt... its a lot of twist going straight through the crank.
You only need to deform it by some fraction of a degree and the timing and balance of the bottom part of the engine can be thrown out.

we need more then 100kg at nearly 2 meters from the bolt so do the math.... its a hell of a stress on the crank...

the holding tool is designed to lock the pulley itself so no force at all goes into the crank, bearings or seals...

T16 · 11th January 2017, 02:16

This is one of those annoying jobs that you sort of have to do it yourself to make sure its done right.

Id not trust it to the average spanner monkey in the UK, so its annoying because you have to suck it up, get appropriately tooled up, and just do it.

I might well have to do it again on another diesel I own, dreading it!

I dont think ive come across anything like it in my life, the forces required are ludicrous.

Can someone tell me WHY they did this? What is wrong with having the crank pulley locate in a machined hex, or whatever on the end of the crank and a much smaller more reasonable bolt? I cannot fathom the reasoning behind this particular assembly decision, but surely there must have been an engineering reason?

Would a locating lug/hex/pattern fatigue over time and crack perhaps?

3rd January 2017, 16:44	#1
peter752.0 Newbie Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Canterbury Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Crank Pulley Bolt -apologies Firstly, I apologize for having to post about this, as I know this topic has been covered enough times. However- this is somewhat particular. I cannot for the life of me find any info regarding -how- one is to lock the crankshaft using a screwdriver in the starter hole. Do I just hammer it in where the gap between the ring gear and bell housing tightens?- This hasn't worked- lol. There doesn't appear to be any logical way of 'slotting' it between the teeth. Any enlightenment would be most welcome. Secondly, I've hired a Hilti cordless impact wrench from HSS hire. Was rather hoping it would do the job- no joy so far. The specification published on HSS's website indicated 450Nm. I know the tightening sequence produces a really high torque figure when done properly.. but more than 450?! Admittedly I am being slightly naughty and using a normal socket. It is however a very good one - chunky, 6 point (the kind that applies the pressure to the sides of the hexagon, not the corners). I have a good breaker bar and have tried massive extensions, but I couldn't lock the ring gear so just slipped after what I guess was about 150Nm Any advice would be much appreciated as goodness knows how I'm supposed to remove it otherwise. Cheers- Peter

3rd January 2017, 22:29	#5
T16 I really should get out more....... ZT CDTi 135, ZT260SE Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Dundee Posts: 2,877 Thanks: 10 Thanked 331 Times in 213 Posts	INDEED. What I found was I didnt have to lock the flywheel with the correct tool. As you do up, the friction between the pulley and the crankshaft, means that it will loosen fine, and tighten up fine, without turning anything. When I cracked mine off, I used a 5 foot long scaffold pole, an 8 or 12" long 3/4" extension resting in the top of an axle stand (perfect height), and a 3/4" 1.2m long breaker bar in the scaffold. Still with all this, I needed to bounce and jump to get it to undo. I was actually near the rear end of the damn car it was so long. Tightening up was easier, but quite frightening, I even wrapped the breaker elbow in rags just in case the thing decided to shatter. I can without a shadow of a doubt say this was the worst job I have EVER EVER had to do on a car. Its scary. Even a gearbox off job or a clutch replacement was better than this horrid job. The windy guns and air tools just cannot touch this bolt. Also for me I would not like to be putting that much shock force through the crank either. Better to stick to the proper tool, and just get scaffolded up I'm afraid!! I genuinely feel for any poor soul who has done this job, you never forget it! If you search on here, the BMW part number is available, I even took pics of mine, and its available to order via BMW for about £65 or so. I modified mine as when Rover changed over the bolts from old to the newer, the thickness of the head of the bolt changed, so I had the centre of my tool machined out to accommodate the BIZARRE decision by Rover to change the bolt and washer. Means it fits both Mk1 and Mk2 no problem. Last edited by T16; 3rd January 2017 at 22:33..

3rd January 2017, 16:56	#2
EastPete Posted a thing or two Rover 75 CDTi Classic saloon, MGB GT, Skoda Yeti Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ramsey, Cambs Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 626 Thanked 635 Times in 430 Posts	Peter On one occasion when I did not have the proper locking tool for this job, I jammed the flywheel gear teeth through the starter motor hole with a broad tyre lever - a screwdriver I think will not be man enough for the job. Try to get the proper locking tool if you can - it makes the job much easier, and reduces risk of damage to the flywheel (or even crankshaft twisting, as some here claim can happen with this method). I do have the tool, but I only lend it out on a collect and return in person basis - I do not want to get involved in posting it around the country. The bolt will be very tight, and only the top of the range windy guns (1000 Nm plus) will shift it. When I have done them, I have used a six foot scaffold pole over a three foot 3/4 inch breaker bar to shift the bolt - nothing else would touch it. Good luck - let us know how you get on. Cheers Pete

3rd January 2017, 17:17	#4
COLVERT This is my second home R75 Saloon. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: France/or Devon. Posts: 14,003 Thanks: 3,851 Thanked 2,167 Times in 1,816 Posts	Buy the correct tool cos snapping your cast crankshaft will make you Very unhappy.----

4th January 2017, 22:33	#7
peter752.0 Newbie Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Canterbury Posts: 18 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks. Gracious- do you think I actually might deform the crank? Christ. I presume this would be 'achieved' by the pressure on the flywheel? Sadly I learned about the futility of mid power impact guns the hard way. Hindsight eh.. I should have spent that money on the tool, NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-NAUGHTY WORD-. I can't say I expected the job to be easy. It is at least 'straightforward' if not easy. Guessing you folks think I'll break a half inch bar? I have a nice one with a very sturdy head, but this I'm guessing may mean the likelihood of smashing it goes up. I do at least have strength these days, and I knew what I was getting into having done the same thing on a meager vw polo some years ago.

11th January 2017, 02:16	#10
T16 I really should get out more....... ZT CDTi 135, ZT260SE Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Dundee Posts: 2,877 Thanks: 10 Thanked 331 Times in 213 Posts	This is one of those annoying jobs that you sort of have to do it yourself to make sure its done right. Id not trust it to the average spanner monkey in the UK, so its annoying because you have to suck it up, get appropriately tooled up, and just do it. I might well have to do it again on another diesel I own, dreading it! I dont think ive come across anything like it in my life, the forces required are ludicrous. Can someone tell me WHY they did this? What is wrong with having the crank pulley locate in a machined hex, or whatever on the end of the crank and a much smaller more reasonable bolt? I cannot fathom the reasoning behind this particular assembly decision, but surely there must have been an engineering reason? Would a locating lug/hex/pattern fatigue over time and crack perhaps?