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Old 7th February 2018, 17:51   #141
p2roverman
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Originally Posted by kaiser View Post

It is just completely insignificant if you time at 180 or 360 degrees! The alignment is perfect in both cases, when the safe mark aligns with the four marks on the rear sprockets!
Agreed.
Except that the front tools cannot be fitted if the cams are 180 degrees out.

Now I've found there are different camshafts for the different engines I am expecting these rear sprocket marks to line up when engine locked and front tools fitted, I'll let you know and take photo.
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Old 7th February 2018, 17:52   #142
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Originally Posted by p2roverman View Post
.................

Incidently, are you still doing the ally thermostats? I've two so far, but may well ressurrect the unique Arden Green 2.5 Club SE tourer, which might as well have one fitted when I do its belt change - yet another car I have with no history.
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Old 8th February 2018, 07:52   #143
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Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
That explanation is complete gobbledygook And I don't care who or what this person claims to be or have done!

And to claim that the rear and the front bank should have different timing is a sign of not understanding an iota of what is going on. This is about the dumbest I have heard in this discussion, to be quite honest. Who in their wildest dreams would give the first 3 cylinders one timing and a different timing for the last three cylinders on a straight 6?? Who? Blinking nonsense!

Of course the rear marks can be made to align perfectly! And if that is the correct setting (which I seriously believe it is), could have been found out this time, as the OP had a factory set engine, and could have verified this with a photograph.
It still can be found out, if you believe the special tools, because if the tools are fitted, where are the marks?
Take a photo and let us see!

That Diesel 1956 comes with a statement of pre-production delays is absolute nonsense. Once the correct timing is established for the engine, it is possible to make correct marks very easily, for Pete's sake, we are talking about two dimples, or marks, that is all. You don't need 12 months to make that. You can scribe this unto the sprockets when you assemble, if need be.


I think we are discussing with a bunch of people many of whom really do not understand how an engine works.

And for people that quote and paste or refer to information, give a link so people can go and read the whole story, don't just quote selectively.
First, there is nothing mentioned about setting the timing differently between the front and rear bank in the text written by Diesel 1955.

Second, Here is the source thread for the text copied: http://forums.mg-rover.org/mg-zt-rov...er4577-391583/

I have avoided to bring up this discussion in my thread as it has been discussed widely a lot of times over the years, and can`t see the need for bringing it up once more. Without knowing for sure why the design of the KV6 is as it is, we only have to rely on our own assumptions and experience regarding the setup, and the recommendations from the manufacturer. Input from one of the people behind the design might shed some light why things are as the are. At the end it is up to our own to decide which information we will rely on and how to proceed with the work. We all know that there is a lot of cr@p written out there from people without any relevant knowledge or experience, which all of the discussions around the KV6 belt and K4 head gasket shows. If you are unsure about how to set up the timing, follow the manufacturers instructions or just let everything be. We have seen many stories where people have made their own ways of doing things, and failed.

At the end, we can cook this sh!t down to a few simple ways to do the job:

1. If the engine has a good known timing and work well, leave the floating sprockets in place and replace the belt the "tipex" way. The chance for altering anything is minimal and the timing will probably by sufficient within correct timing. No special tools needed.

2. If the engine has been rebuilt or it is suspected that the timing is out, use the special tools to set the correct timing.

3. If the engine has been rebuilt and the special tools are not available, set the timing by locking the crankshaft in "safe position" and align the marks on the rear sprockets. The statement that this is the correct timing position makes good sense at the first glance, but why has Rover issued different tools for the different engines which will bring the marks on the rear sprockets out of position (Anyone please confirm/verify)?? I don`t want to waste my time and energy to discuss, but if in doubt as in point 2, use the tooling to verify timing.

Last edited by beinet1; 8th February 2018 at 10:36..
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Old 8th February 2018, 08:42   #144
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Originally Posted by p2roverman View Post
As to alignment of the marks on the rear chainwheels when the engine is in safe mode, if they do, by chance, line up when the 2-litre tool is used, they won't line up when the 2.5 tool is used, or vice-versa; but it doesn't matter so long as inlet and exhaust cams are in the correct relationship. (This statement assumes that the same camshafts are used on both engines, I haven't checked.)
The same camshafts are not used on both engines:

2.0 litre KV6
Inlet LGC 107710 > LGC 000130SR
Exhaust LGC 107720

2.5 litre KV6 (177 & 160 Ps)
Inlet LGC 000140
Exhaust LGC 107740

The rear sprocket wheels have the same part number on both these engines.

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Old 8th February 2018, 18:50   #145
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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
The same camshafts are not used on both engines:

2.0 litre KV6
Inlet LGC 107710 > LGC 000130SR
Exhaust LGC 107720

2.5 litre KV6 (177 & 160 Ps)
Inlet LGC 000140
Exhaust LGC 107740

The rear sprocket wheels have the same part number on both these engines.

Simon
Simon
I'd found this out a few days back, my post no 137 refers.
However, what I did not know was that 160 and 177 refers to the 2.5.
I know there are two more cams for the MGZT LGC000260/270

Also noted the rear chainwheels are common, so with the different cams we can expect they will each be machined so that the marks on these chainwheels line up when the appropriate front tools are used; I'll check this on mine.

What I have now realised is that changing KV6 belts is a straight forward job when the special tools are used. One only has to mess about with Tippex marks when doing without them.

Looking back it does seem staggering that this job has generated so much correspondance here over the years, but then I do realise that approaching it cold, as I did, with all the rumours of difficulties, perhaps it's not surprising that people are initially daunted by it.
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Old 8th February 2018, 18:56   #146
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Originally Posted by beinet1 View Post

At the end, we can cook this sh!t down to a few simple ways to do the job:

1. If the engine has a good known timing and work well, leave the floating sprockets in place and replace the belt the "tipex" way. The chance for altering anything is minimal and the timing will probably by sufficient within correct timing. No special tools needed.

2. If the engine has been rebuilt or it is suspected that the timing is out, use the special tools to set the correct timing.

3. If the engine has been rebuilt and the special tools are not available, set the timing by locking the crankshaft in "safe position" and align the marks on the rear sprockets. The statement that this is the correct timing position makes good sense at the first glance, but why has Rover issued different tools for the different engines which will bring the marks on the rear sprockets out of position (Anyone please confirm/verify)?? I don`t want to waste my time and energy to discuss, but if in doubt as in point 2, use the tooling to verify timing.
Agreed.
Now part way through this job after initial uncertainty. Have to admit it is a straight forward operation if the special tools are used.
Just waiting for new tensioner bolts (old ones had chewed heads) and warmer weather to finish it.
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Old 8th February 2018, 21:30   #147
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Quote:
At the end, we can cook this sh!t down to a few simple ways to do the job:

1. If the engine has a good known timing and work well, leave the floating sprockets in place and replace the belt the "tipex" way. The chance for altering anything is minimal and the timing will probably by sufficient within correct timing. No special tools needed.

2. If the engine has been rebuilt or it is suspected that the timing is out, use the special tools to set the correct timing.

3. If the engine has been rebuilt and the special tools are not available, set the timing by locking the crankshaft in "safe position" and align the marks on the rear sprockets.
Yep agree with 2 and 3, but if it was me and the engine had good known timing I'd scribe a line through both pairs of rear sprockets, change the belts leaving the front floating cams tightened, rotate the crank two turns then check the scribed marks and if they are out adjust on the floating cams.

But each to their own.





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Last edited by Mike Noc; 8th February 2018 at 21:35..
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Old 15th February 2018, 20:26   #148
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Found that when engine locked in safe position and front tools in place, the marks on the rear chainwheels do NOT quite line up. (I might add I'm using the 2 litre tools and checked the engine is a 2-litre). Is this what we know to be the case, and if so, the info in Haynes manual is wrong in that you cannot fit the rear tool while the engine is locked.

At this point I would like to load a photo showing the chainwheel alignment marks as I have been asked to previously in thei thread, but can't do it. When I click the 'inset image' button I am asked for a URL. This seems a complex way of doing it, surely I should just be able to pick it from a list in the appropriate file?
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Old 16th February 2018, 08:21   #149
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Originally Posted by p2roverman View Post
Found that when engine locked in safe position and front tools in place, the marks on the rear chainwheels do NOT quite line up. (I might add I'm using the 2 litre tools and checked the engine is a 2-litre). Is this what we know to be the case, and if so, the info in Haynes manual is wrong in that you cannot fit the rear tool while the engine is locked.
It is what I expected to see. Haynes has been known to be wrong before - for example they have the clutch master cylinder being supplied with fluid from the brake master cylinder reservoir, similar to the system used on the Vauxhall Astra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by p2roverman View Post
At this point I would like to load a photo showing the chainwheel alignment marks as I have been asked to previously in thei thread, but can't do it. When I click the 'inset image' button I am asked for a URL. This seems a complex way of doing it, surely I should just be able to pick it from a list in the appropriate file?
This may help with uploading photos:

https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...ng+photographs
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Old 16th February 2018, 18:08   #150
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Thanks, Mike Noc

As suggested, I'm (hopefully) uploading a photo of the secondary belt with the 2-litre engine locked in safe position and the front tools fitted. It can be clearly seen that the marks in the chainwheels are not lined up, and the rear tool will not therefore fit.

Therefore one has to remove the front tools and remove the locking pin to turn the engine slightly in order to engage the rear tool to change the secondary belts. I'm assuming this is what everyone has found, but confirmation would be appreciated.
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