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Old 9th June 2021, 09:31   #21
COLVERT
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Simon.

I've tried your link several times but I just can't get it to work for me.

I agree about your comment on @myths@

It's rather like some of those --old wives tales--that just won't go away.
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Old 9th June 2021, 10:39   #22
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Originally Posted by AndrewJames View Post
Would it not be easier and preferable to just use a breaker bar?
Yes you can use one of those. You'll see that I recommended "a handle at least half a metre long" and gave a torque wrench only as an example of such a tool.
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Originally Posted by AndrewJames View Post
I also own a couple of torque wrenches ... I wouldn't dream of using them as breaker bars.
Well now you know that you can, if necessary. The ratcheting action of a torque wrench is useful when working in confined spaces.
Regarding "breaker bars", this term conjures up an image of brute force and ignorance in my mind. With a torque wrench I can control and limit the force I am applying. If a bolt won't move, my technique is to stop and use other means to help it. I find this works well and avoids disasters.

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Originally Posted by COLVERT View Post
Simon.
I've tried your link several times but I just can't get it to work for me.
I agree about your comment on @myths@
It's rather like some of those --old wives tales--that just won't go away.
Thank you Jon both for your endorsement and for alerting me to the faulty link. I've found the problem so it now works.

Simon
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Old 9th June 2021, 10:49   #23
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
As Norbar state you should keep to within the torque limits when using the instrument.
If you look again at my original advice Mike you will see that I specified exactly that!
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
... far better to use a breaker bar designed for that purpose than risk damaging your torque wrench.
I beg to differ. It's far better to use a torque wrench for the reasons that I've given in reply to Andrew. There is no risk involved when a torque wrench is used by a competent, responsible operator and I'm sure that you are one of those.
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
As I said, not a myth, just good engineering practice.
I think you're just being deliberately contrary Mike. Why is that?

Simon
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Old 9th June 2021, 11:37   #24
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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
If you look again at my original advice Mike you will see that I specified exactly that!
But why bother wasting all that time setting up your torque wrench for a job that it might not be capable of???? Just use the correct tool in the first place instead of trying to justify what you have said earlier.

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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
I beg to differ. It's far better to use a torque wrench for the reasons that I've given in reply to Andrew. There is no risk involved when a torque wrench is used by a competent, responsible operator and I'm sure that you are one of those.
I started an engineering apprenticeship in 1975 Simon and have been working in the engineering sector pretty much all of the time since then, and in all those years I have never used a torque wrench to undo anything! Breaker bars, extensions, torque multipliers, heat and cold, shock on anything seized solid - so just about everything else but never a torque wrench.

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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
I think you're just being deliberately contrary Mike. Why is that?

Simon
Not at all - you obviously can't see it but hopefully my advice may be of benefit to anyone coming on here when looking to do work on their own car.

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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
Well now you know that you can, if necessary. The ratcheting action of a torque wrench is useful when working in confined spaces.
Regarding "breaker bars", this term conjures up an image of brute force and ignorance in my mind. With a torque wrench I can control and limit the force I am applying. If a bolt won't move, my technique is to stop and use other means to help it. I find this works well and avoids disasters.

Simon
Again not good engineering practice to use a ratchet to undo seized or well torqued up bolts either.
Always a risk they can break and let go suddenly, not what you want when you have all your weight on it. By all means use the ratchet after you have loosened the bolt.

Stay safe Simon.





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Last edited by Mike Noc; 9th June 2021 at 11:52..
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Old 9th June 2021, 12:59   #25
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Regarding "breaker bars", this term conjures up an image of brute force and ignorance in my mind.

That would only be if you don't know what a breaker bar is, what it is used for and why the term ' breaker bar' is used.


It is called a breaker bar because its function is to allow more force to be applied to a fastener than can be applied with other tools, depending on length, to ' break ' a threaded fastener free, which may be excessively tight or corroded and can not be released with normal length tools.


Though if used incorrectly and to excess in the wrong hands, yes it can break or snap a fastening but that is not its design function !


Some times brute force is the only way to loosen something, as I have used many times over the years, either by using breaker bars or my torque multiplier which appears, due to the low effort required, to be quite a gentle tool but is far from it at the business end.


True brute force with fastenings was what my sons enjoyed seeing their grandad do when he was replacing oak timbers for one of his hammer beds, watching his staff knock the colours out of large square mounting nuts that he made, with a ' slam spanner ' as he called it, which he also made, the spanner hung on chains and tensioned by chains, no torque setting, just hammered until he determined it sounded right.



So yes, severely brutal in the truest sense of the word but certainly no sign of ignorance, quite the opposite in fact.


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Old 9th June 2021, 13:55   #26
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Quote--Mike Noc.

Again not good engineering practice to use a ratchet to undo seized or well torqued up bolts either.
Always a risk they can break and let go suddenly, not what you want when you have all your weight on it. By all means use the ratchet after you have loosened the bolt.




My thoughts on it.

If a bolt is super tight as long as you can set the torque wrench to a figure higher than the normal force required to tighten the said bolt nothing will break.---The torque wrench will let you know when to stop pulling by clicking.---However if you try to continue past that point then it's possible to cause all sorts of damage. To you, the bolt and even the torque wrench.-( this paragraph about undoing a seized bolt )

I believe it to be true that a torque wrench ratchet will be designed to work safely up to the wrenches rated capacity. ( I think this was the point that Simon was trying to make. )
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Old 9th June 2021, 18:50   #27
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Originally Posted by SD1too View Post

Linking two spanners together exceeds the torque for which each was designed and it's not a technique of which I approve when a superior alternative is available. Using a hexagon socket is safer, more controlled and professional because it enables important suspension bolts to be tightened to the correct torque which is impossible using the ring spanner method.
It worries me why some people are so resistant to spending a little more time to do a job properly.
Simon

You chose to ignore the fact that I first mentioned using a socket with a Strong arm just homing in to the comment I made to "IF using two spanners as Artic shows !" that was added as didn't know which way the OP was going to attempt it
There is no way you will exceed the torque of those spanners by doing that , You may exceed the torque of the bolt !
As for Artic's pictorial ,many a member has successfully changed out the lower arms by following it, so a proven safe way of doing it . The bolt is not exact torque critical and Sufficient tightening from a competent person will render the vehicle safe and roadworthy
Already since you have advised removing ARB clamps to remove the rear bush two members have encountered problems on a job that is not required to remove the rear bushes
I like your comment about resistance to spending a little more time to do a job properly ! Who has resistance to spend the time needed to safely repair the car ? No one from what I read !
People are just giving advice from the knowledge and experiences they have gained working on their cars !
Most people have not got the luxury of laying their car up for 3 months to change out a set of springs , drop links, rear bushes and bottom arms .


Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
That's a common myth Steve. All my torque wrenches have reversible heads so they are intended to be used both clockwise and anticlockwise. I have used mine when necessary for loosening and Norbar recently found the calibration to be virtually spot-on despite over 25 years' use. There is therefore no reason why a torque wrench cannot be used to loosen a tight bolt.

Simon
I think Mike Noc covered this perfectly , but Why would you use and risk damaging a Torque wench when a Strong Arm /Breaker bar are specifically designed for that job







Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post

There will be no rust on the threads Steve for the reason I've given. I know what rust holding a bolt feels like after struggling with the lower suspension arm balljoints!

Simon
Read my quote again Simon , I never mentioned rusty threads , just rusty bolt !
The flange of the bolt will have picked up on the bush over the years as it will have been fitted dry and will have corroded . That's why the bolt will be tighter

Last edited by TourerSteve; 9th June 2021 at 19:46..
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Old 9th June 2021, 19:07   #28
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:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post

II have never used a torque wrench to undo anything! Breaker bars, extensions, torque multipliers, heat and cold, shock on anything seized solid - so just about everything else but never a torque wrench.


.
Sound engineering practices , Any body with an engineering background will never use a mechanical torque wrench to break out fastenings
Have used Pneumatic and hydraulic torque equipment to break out fastenings but that is another game completely !

Last edited by TourerSteve; 9th June 2021 at 19:17..
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Old 10th June 2021, 07:48   #29
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But why bother wasting all that time setting up your torque wrench for a job that it might not be capable of? ... I started an engineering apprenticeship in 1975 Simon ...
Mike, you must surely have noticed during your 45 years experience that it takes about fifteen seconds to set a torque wrench and another five to check its maximum capability. That isn't a waste of time by any standard.
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Originally Posted by TourerSteve View Post
The bolt is not exact torque critical and Sufficient tightening from a competent person will render the vehicle safe and roadworthy.
These bolts have a torque setting allocated to them by MG Rover. It's my practice to respect that whenever possible and in this case it is possible to tighten them to the required 150 Nm. No matter what your opinion is on that, it is the safest, most reliable and professional way to do it.
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Originally Posted by TourerSteve View Post
Why would you use and risk damaging a Torque wrench ...
Here's why that's not true Steve:
  1. There is no risk of damaging a torque wrench because it's designed to notify the user when the chosen torque has been reached.
  2. You should select a torque wrench with a range appropriate to the job. The wrench I used is capable of 300 Nm, over double the bolt's specification.
  3. The ratchet, also capable of handling the tool's maximum torque setting, is invaluable in confined spaces.
  4. Norbar, who manufacture, repair and recalibrate torque wrenches, publicly state that they can be used for releasing tasks.
By asking these questions Steve you're giving the impression that you have little experience of torque wrenches. They're not mysterious things to be feared and left on the shelf in preference to a crude and uncontrolled "breaker bar". When you try this job for yourself, why not see how much better a torque wrench is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by COLVERT View Post
... as long as you can set the torque wrench to a figure higher than the normal force required to tighten the said bolt nothing will break. The torque wrench will let you know when to stop pulling by clicking ...
I believe it to be true that a torque wrench ratchet will be designed to work safely up to the wrenches rated capacity. ( I think this was the point that Simon was trying to make.)

Thank you Jon! At last some sense prevails. Mike and Steve please take note!

Simon
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Last edited by SD1too; 10th June 2021 at 11:30.. Reason: Some wording changed for clarity.
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Old 10th June 2021, 08:45   #30
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Originally Posted by BillyRover View Post
I've never been defeated by a car - ever. Till today. And it was a control arm that did it of all things! I've done some right finickety jobs over the years but this one took the biscuit - after 8 hours I'd removed 4 of 6 bolts using every ratchet, swivel, extension, adapter, jiggery pokery thingy mabobble and still never manged to crack it! Time for a beer and into the garage tomorrow.
Hi Billy.
Most likely after your two day of reading all the little spats of how to undo and what to use to undo the two bolts, you may have not found time to sort them out please let us know how you are getting on.

Personally my method works for me and that is the way i will always change the lower wish bone bushes, if you are changing the whole arm then that's even easier in my opinion, the only part that can get troublesome is the centre pin which needs some force to crack the taper now and again, i am sure you will get there in the end.
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