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Old 15th May 2019, 09:02   #71
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Originally Posted by Dallas View Post
Pressed too many zero's, lol I believe you, thousands wouldn't.

I myself originally studied in fine art and illustration, but went on to study in joinery and became a carpenter/builder because that's where the money was. Years later I wanted a cleaner profession which led me in to the business side of things and then retail.

Its safe to say the building trade for example has got worst over the years, the shortage of skilled construction workers is quite a concern. Not to blow my own trumpet, but my father and I were head-hunted by a well known contractor some years ago, this is something that proves there is a continued skilled trades shortage in the UK.

We can post up figures all day long, that still doesn't take away the fact that what is happening in these industries is real.

Construction and bricklaying?


I thought we were discussing UK based enginering/manufacturing vs the same being moved abroad.

Construction trades will always be executed in the UK, be it a percentage of the workers may be imported if there is a local shortage. This is until we start to import pre-assembled houses with electrics and plumbing pre-installed.

As for the zeroes, it still does not chaneg my point whether there are 135 applicants per job or 1000. There are far fewer quality jobs than skilled individuals available and looking to fill those jobs.

There is no skills shortage in high-value engineering and manufacturing in the UK. It's a myth spread by those who do not wish to emplyoy in the UK or the business owners who do not wish to invest in their workforce.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:05   #72
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
Pretty much as it was when I applied for an Apprenticeship with Shell back in 1975 then.

Quite - there is no change in the skillbase available in the UK per available role i.e. a high number of suitable and capable workers exist per available job.
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Old 15th May 2019, 09:40   #73
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I would put this differently.

We have put so many skilled people into the non-employed pool due to a lack of quality jobs with quality rewards that we are in danger of losing key skills.

There is no skills shortage in the UK - only a skilled job shortage. We have huge numbers of skilled/educated people working in lower skilled roles e.g. engineers working in retail as a result.
This is exactly what happened to my career. Good engineering jobs dried up and as I got older and manufacturing reduced I was not wanted, only young straight out of university were flavour of the month. Skills and valuable knowledge learnt over the years meant nothing to employers. I ended up in the gas retail industry, at least my engineering skills were put to some use. Quickly ended up as General Manager for a group of manufacturers with retail and internet outlets and was responsible for the installation and service teams in addition. So the transferable skills were well used but earnings were reduced and I felt it was just such a waste of mine, and all those in my position, who's skills and attributes would have been an asset.

However I cannot agree with your comment that there is no shortage of skilled people. I've been retired for 7 years and not interested in going back to the grindstone, but I get emails regularly from agencies offering me engineering and design jobs. The employers are waking up to the fact that a new piece of paper doesn't make the owner of it an engineer etc. and have the knowledge and ability to do the job expected of them. This was something I often found out myself and had much better success with employing a young apprentice trained engineer than an unproved engineering graduate. They had the theories but couldn't get them to work, the apprentice trained could. This and not spending enough on training and apprenticeships means there's a real shortage of home grown skills base left to call upon. With a much reduced industrial manufacturing capacity and the reduction of investment in manufacturing running it down why would companies invest in training. Hence our reliance on EU skilled workers much cheaper, no training budgets, and work for less.
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Old 15th May 2019, 10:22   #74
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This is exactly what happened to my career. Good engineering jobs dried up and as I got older and manufacturing reduced I was not wanted, only young straight out of university were flavour of the month. Skills and valuable knowledge learnt over the years meant nothing to employers. I ended up in the gas retail industry, at least my engineering skills were put to some use. Quickly ended up as General Manager for a group of manufacturers with retail and internet outlets and was responsible for the installation and service teams in addition. So the transferable skills were well used but earnings were reduced and I felt it was just such a waste of mine, and all those in my position, who's skills and attributes would have been an asset.

However I cannot agree with your comment that there is no shortage of skilled people. I've been retired for 7 years and not interested in going back to the grindstone, but I get emails regularly from agencies offering me engineering and design jobs. The employers are waking up to the fact that a new piece of paper doesn't make the owner of it an engineer etc. and have the knowledge and ability to do the job expected of them. This was something I often found out myself and had much better success with employing a young apprentice trained engineer than an unproved engineering graduate. They had the theories but couldn't get them to work, the apprentice trained could. This and not spending enough on training and apprenticeships means there's a real shortage of home grown skills base left to call upon. With a much reduced industrial manufacturing capacity and the reduction of investment in manufacturing running it down why would companies invest in training. Hence our reliance on EU skilled workers much cheaper, no training budgets, and work for less.

Thanks for your excellent post, Robun.

My experience of graduates has been the opposite - every one of them has excelled and I have worked with fresh graduates every year. In my view the key differentiator is whether the employer expects to take someone with the fundamental engineering skills and train them for the specific job or expects to find applicants who will turn up and start doing the job effectively from day 1. Our approach was the former and we never had a single graduate who turned out to be a disappointment. We did however take the best graduates from the top universities and they were paid a starting salary to match this level of capability. Our employer invested in its people.
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Old 15th May 2019, 15:17   #75
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Our policy was the same but because of their qualifications Plessey paid them as much or more than a young apprentice trained Toolmaker with an ONC or T4 qualification who was ambitious and wanting to move up into the design office or production engineering. They improved rapidly they knew what they were about and understood more. The graduates on the same or mostly more were trainees, didn't understand things but thought they knew it all. I had to spend more time with them holding their hands sorting out mistakes where the lower qualified performed better. I can tell you these apprentice trained lads mostly ran rings round them and did knock the cockiness out of some of them.

In the end it enabled me to argue for higher pay so they all started at the same level and then got promotion on merit. Plessey were very good at encouraging people. I was a fast tracker and came from a technical apprentice start but by the time I was 24 had my own team of design and detail draftsmen but that didn't prejudice me. I wanted them all to succeed and do a good job. Less hassle for me.

I was sent one graduate who had a History Degree. Why he was employed as an engineer only HR would know. He couldn't get into his head why a metal could cut another metal or the theory of a cam. Even when I asked why did a knife cut butter, it's harder he says the concept of metal cutting metal was beyond him. I managed to persuade those above to move him so he went to production engineering. Lasted a week and they had had enough. So he went to work for my Dad who said he was the best management trainee he had ever had. The last I heard of him we were both short listed to go out to Brazil to manage a factory out there. He got the job because of his management expertise. He became a round peg in a round hole, which was great. I had another nothing like as bad but 90% of his work had to be corrected. Two engineering degrees and every year he went on more night classes. Just couldn't put it all into practice and after I moved to GEC who did I come across but Allan. First thing he said on meeting was can we do lunch, and at lunch apologised for being so bad at his job and giving me so much grief. Now he was working in production control and found his vocation. I had so many with that piece of paper that gave them a confidence way above their ability..

In the end my eexperience saw 80% of the apprentice trained lads go further than the graduates.

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Old 15th May 2019, 15:25   #76
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Our policy was the same but because of their qualifications Plessey paid them as much or more than a young apprentice trained Toolmaker with an ONC or T4 qualification who was ambitious and wanting to move up into the design office or production engineering. They improved rapidly they knew what they were about and understood more. The graduates on the same of mostly more were trainees, didn't understand things but thought they knew it all. I had to spend more time with them holding their hands sorta v out mistakes where the lower qualified performed better. I can tell you these apprentice trained lads mostly ran rings round them and did knock the cockiness out off some of them.

In the end it enabled me to argue for higher pay so they all started at the same level and then promotion on merit. Please were very good at encouraging people. I was a fast tracker and came from a technical apprentice start but by the time I was 24 had my own team of design and detail draftsmen but that didn't prejudice me. I wanted them all to succeed and do a good job. Less hassle for me.

I was sent one graduate who had a History Degree. Why he was employed as an engineer only HR would know. He couldn't get into his head why a metal could cut another metal or the theory of a cam. Even when I asked why did a knife cut butter, it's harder he says the concept of metal cutting metal was beyond him. I managed to persuade those above to move him so he went to production engineering. Lasted a week and they had had enough. So he went to work for my Dad who said he was the best management trainee he had ever had. The last I heard of him we were both short listed to go out to Brazil to manage a factory out there. He got the job because of his management expertise. He became a round peg in a round hole, which was great. I had another nothing like as bad but 90% of his work had to be corrected. Two engineering degrees and every year he went on more night classes. Just couldn't put it all into practice and after I moved to GEC who did I come across but Allan. First thing he said on meeting was can we do lunch, and at lunch apologised for being so bad at his job and giving me so much grief. Now he was working in production control and found his vocation. I had so many with that price of paper that gave them a confidence way above their ability..

In the end my eexperience saw 80% of the apprentice trained lads go further than the graduates.
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Old 17th May 2019, 18:33   #77
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Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
Good for him

I know of another owner of a new "ZS" who recently made a 400 mile round trip to Longbridge to sort out a software fault which also required the fitting of an updated camshaft sensor.

As his nearest dealer, a mere 100 mile round trip, couldn't guarantee to have the part as well as the update, nor the dealer in Durham, again a little over 200 miles from his home and back.

So as I was speaking to the "ZS" owner yesterday, I asked how he was getting on with the car, and it will be getting sold, a litany of niggling faults hinting at poor build quality, and his wife has said she doesn't like the car.

This is the problem with badge engineering, you can stick a badge of a relatively untainted brand on any old tat, but it will still be tat, and I'd like to see what the dealer support will like be once Longbridge has closed up shop.

Brian
I agree with Brian here, anyone who buys a car where the level of dealer/manufacturer after-sale support is non existent needs to have his sanity questioned, and buying a car on the basis of patriotism is also a head examining exercise. The demise of the British car industry is solely the doing of poor management, rubbish products, arrogance, lack of modernisation, and the fact that other countries just are plainly better at building cars, managing staff, producing cars that are what the public want to buy and have governments who are interested in promoting engineering as a means of wealth building as opposed of selling the silverware to simply get rid of a problem industry, then subsidise the very people they sold the silver to in order for them to set up shop manufacturing in the UK, and employing the very same people who 2 years earlier were actually working for British manufacturers now bankrupt for all the reasons above. Only in Britain.!
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Old 18th May 2019, 22:16   #78
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Our policy was the same but because of their qualifications Plessey paid them as much or more than a young apprentice trained Toolmaker with an ONC or T4 qualification who was ambitious and wanting to move up into the design office or production engineering. They improved rapidly they knew what they were about and understood more. The graduates on the same of mostly more were trainees, didn't understand things but thought they knew it all. I had to spend more time with them holding their hands sorta v out mistakes where the lower qualified performed better. I can tell you these apprentice trained lads mostly ran rings round them and did knock the cockiness out off some of them.

In the end it enabled me to argue for higher pay so they all started at the same level and then promotion on merit. Please were very good at encouraging people. I was a fast tracker and came from a technical apprentice start but by the time I was 24 had my own team of design and detail draftsmen but that didn't prejudice me. I wanted them all to succeed and do a good job. Less hassle for me.

I was sent one graduate who had a History Degree. Why he was employed as an engineer only HR would know. He couldn't get into his head why a metal could cut another metal or the theory of a cam. Even when I asked why did a knife cut butter, it's harder he says the concept of metal cutting metal was beyond him. I managed to persuade those above to move him so he went to production engineering. Lasted a week and they had had enough. So he went to work for my Dad who said he was the best management trainee he had ever had. The last I heard of him we were both short listed to go out to Brazil to manage a factory out there. He got the job because of his management expertise. He became a round peg in a round hole, which was great. I had another nothing like as bad but 90% of his work had to be corrected. Two engineering degrees and every year he went on more night classes. Just couldn't put it all into practice and after I moved to GEC who did I come across but Allan. First thing he said on meeting was can we do lunch, and at lunch apologised for being so bad at his job and giving me so much grief. Now he was working in production control and found his vocation. I had so many with that price of paper that gave them a confidence way above their ability..

In the end my eexperience saw 80% of the apprentice trained lads go further than the graduates.

I find your post really strange - you compare trained technicians with a History graduate who for some reason was put in a technical environment.

To become a professional engineer, a person needs to have degree or higher level analytical capability and understanding of the chosen field - for engineering, this must include physics and maths and well as the specialist chosen field e.g. electronics, mechanical engineering etc. This needs to be supplemented with a minimum of 5 years performing graduate level engineering functions such as design. These are the minimum qualifications required to become a Chartered Engineer and a member of the Institute of Engineers and Technologists.

The roles you are describing are technician roles in an engineering environment. They are not the roles of a professional engineer. Technician roles are extremely important in the engineering environment, but they are quite different from the role of a professional engineer. This of course is the problem in the UK in that the engineering profession is continuously being devalued by non-engineers describing themselves as engineers. Example being a mechanic calling himself an automotive engineer. The same also devalues technician roles in that no one wants to describe themselves as a technician believing it to be a lower status role - which it is not.

In Germany, a person has to possess qualifications along similar lines to those described in the first paragraph above in order to call himself an engineer - that is why engineering has the status that it does in Germany. The use of the term engineer is regulated.

I was employed at Plessey between 1981 and 1986. My first project upon joining Plessey after graduation was the design of a transmitter for a 19.2Kb/s modem using advanced digital signal processing techniques for use by the military. My second project, the design of the timing extraction signal processing algorithms for the receiver section of the same modem. This was at a time when the rest of the world was designing 1.2 Kbit/s modems. So I was one of the well paid graduates that you describe. A non-graduate apprentice of the type you describe would have taken around 15-25 years to develop the signal processing knowledge in a hands-on manner that would be required to design these items. I acquired it from world standard lecturers/researchers whilst studying at Kings College for my BSc and Imperial College for my Masters topped up with a 4-week period studying the specifics of modulation encoding/decoding strategies under a world recognised expert in the field - a professor at Loughborough university.

I was based at the Plessey Telecomms R&D centre called Taplow Court - a manor overlooking the Thames in Berkshire.

The above is the reason that companies like BT and Jaguar send their apprentices on degree course. It does not matter whether you attain relevant degree level education first followed by the hands-on experience, or apprenticeship followed by a degree. The only way to become a true professional engineer is to have both the theoretical knowledge/analytical capability and the experience.

p.s. next week, an "engineer" from a local "Environmental Engineering & Management" firm is coming to empty my septic tank!

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Old 19th May 2019, 06:02   #79
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I agree with Brian here, anyone who buys a car where the level of dealer/manufacturer after-sale support is non existent needs to have his sanity questioned, and buying a car on the basis of patriotism is also a head examining exercise.
Maybe, maybe not. As some will of made the link Brian is referring to me. We needed a car that was big enough to carry my daughters wheelchair but not too big that it was a huge car that she wouldn’t drive as a new driver. The MG ticked every box other than a local dealer. We ordered through a dealer that was close to a location where we have weekends away so that we could incorporate servicing and repairs whilst we are away. Unfortunately after a 3 month wait this dealer couldn’t supply a car or give a date due to a huge increase in demand so we looked elsewhere. We also knew at the time that MG were looking at options locally. Looking at other options Longbridge had 3 in stock in the spec we wanted so it was purchased there. The car developed an issue and looking online the cam shaft sensor and a software upgrade seemed to fit our fault. I emailed two dealers asking that if I travelled to them did they carry the parts so that if after diagnosis they were required I wouldn’t need a return trip and got no reply, I emailed the sales center and got a reply the same day. I booked the car in and went to Longbridge. It turned out the cam sensor was for the manual only but the car had 3 updates and was 95% better. The fault has returned and it is annoying that my wife has to drive a car daily with a hesitation and she does prefer the old 75 due to this. I’m now looking at a closer dealer as one locally didn’t appear and I don’t feel It fair that I go back to the original cancelled order dealer which is 3 hours away. How the next dealer and MG handle this will determine if the car stays with us. Was it a bad decision and do I need my sanity questioned? Absolutely not, the MG was perfect in every way for our needs and had a local dealer been appointed life would of been easier, we are in a huge county so a new dealer could happen at any time. My daughter had an amazing day at Longbridge and a car hand over that will never be topped, this included an insight into the plant that money can’t buy. We supported what’s left of Longbridge and the people that work there for what is a very good car and don’t regret that in the slightest. Would I recommend a new MG? Absolutely 100% as long as you have a good dealer locally.
Hopefully Longbridge can be saved along with the remaining jobs there.
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Old 19th May 2019, 10:26   #80
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................
p.s. next week, an "engineer" from a local "Environmental Engineering & Management" firm is coming to empty my septic tank!
I hope that they don't send a spotty graduate engineer around, who hasn't got a practical clue, and blow the thing up.
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